Jerry Won, founder and CEO of Just Like Media, speaks with Ali Jackson-Jolley on "Forbes Talks" about the growing power of the AAPI community, and the importance of intersectionality within his community and beyond.
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00:00 Hi, I'm Ali Jackson Jolly. I'm here with Jerry Wan. Jerry is the founder and CEO of
00:10 Just Like Media. He is also the founder and producer of Dear Asian Americans. Jerry, thanks
00:18 for being here.
00:19 It's wonderful to be here. And thanks for having me, Ali.
00:22 Yeah. So you have gotten to the point in your career where you are on. I don't know if I'll
00:29 say speed dial, but the vice president of the United States calls you and asks you to
00:34 come interview her on stage for things like the White House's initiative on Asian American,
00:40 Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders. You've also interviewed her on your podcast, Dear
00:46 Asian Americans. And so that makes me think about the fact that the Asian American community
00:54 or the AAPI community, I should say, is starting to really understand its power to shape policy,
01:04 to help shape how election outcomes may be. So could you talk to me about what you think
01:10 is happening there with this new power that your community is starting to understand?
01:16 Sure. I want to correct. I don't have her phone number, nor does she have mine. Her
01:20 team reaches out, and I'm very grateful when they do. You know, I think to talk about the
01:26 community, right, and that's sort of the buzzword of the last, you know, we talk about community
01:30 a lot, but we have to take a step back and go, when it comes to the Asian American and
01:34 Pacific Islander community, what does it actually mean? And so even the way that the White House
01:40 and other government agencies have sort of tweaked the term to now include Native Hawaiians.
01:45 And so when you take a term or a group of people that spans, you know, let's just call
01:50 it anything west of California, dozens of countries with complex histories between them
01:55 with different ways that their communities and their families have come to America, separate
02:02 we are very weak. So for example, I am Korean American, and there's about 2 million Koreans
02:06 living in the States. So with, you know, the total population being north of 350, that's
02:12 a very small percentage. When you add all the Asian Americans together, we're somewhere
02:16 between 6 and 7 percent. And so when you come together, then you become a more stronger
02:21 voice, a stronger voice that is less likely to be ignored. The challenge is that it is
02:29 impossible, really difficult, is probably the right thing to say, but nearly impossible
02:35 to have a monolithic view of the community. So when we talk about even the Black community,
02:44 the Hispanic community, there's no singular archetype or a person or an agenda or an issue
02:52 that impacts us all. And I think the stronger unity of the community's voice has unfortunately
03:00 been sort of the silver lining of a lot of the ugliness that we've seen against the community
03:04 in the last three or four years through anti-Asian violence and hate incidents that we've seen.
03:10 But for what it's worth, I think if you're looking at the current administration, there's
03:14 more diversity represented in all levels of government. There are more people who look
03:19 like me and you that are running for offices, you know, both local and at the federal level.
03:24 And it is interesting because it becomes this sort of much more nuanced conversation about
03:31 does representation actually represent me? Does that mean that, you know, all Asians
03:37 are voiced or that all Asian voices are heard? And then the unfortunate answer is not yet.
03:44 And so even within the Asian American community, if you take a look at population or census
03:49 demographics, there's six of the largest ethnic groups, which are Chinese, Korean, Indian,
03:54 Japanese, Filipino, and Vietnamese. That makes up 85 percent of the Asians in the U.S. Then
04:00 if you look at the bottom 15 percent or the other 15 percent, rather, there's about 20
04:04 countries represented. Who's speaking up for them when their issues are very different,
04:10 their income levels, their poverty levels, their where they live in this country? And
04:13 so, you know, I think it is what it actually does is it invites more questions than answers.
04:21 And then we ask questions like, well, what does the community actually look like? Historically,
04:26 it's looked like me, right? A, you know, a privileged East Asian man speaking for everybody.
04:32 And we're trying not to do that anymore. We're trying to make space for other people. We're
04:35 trying to be more mindful. And that's one of the challenges that I've had on the Asian
04:40 Americans, making sure that even though we cannot be exhaustively representative, how
04:44 are we, you know, sufficiently representative to the point that everybody feels that their
04:49 voices and their stories are heard?
04:51 Yeah. So tell me what you think. I know one of the big pieces of information that came
04:57 out for non-Asian Americans during now and particularly when we were really understanding
05:07 the Asian hate crimes that were happening was that Asian American and Pacific Islanders,
05:16 that larger community just didn't feel very seen, didn't feel very understood by the rest
05:23 of American society. Do you think that you've made any movement and, you know, community
05:28 builders like yourself, policy leaders like the vice president, with people thinking more
05:37 intentionally about giving voice, have we made any strides towards, you know, inclusivity?
05:45 I said no. I think you're always going to have a part of the community that feels yes.
05:51 And you're always going to have still even the community that feels no, we're not doing
05:55 enough. You know, so I think it depends where you are, how you feel represented. Again,
06:02 if your congressman is, you know, looks like you or is from your community or even, you
06:07 know, your vice president is, does that sufficiently check the box of, you know, she has my, you
06:12 know, priorities or are our priorities aligned? And that's not the case, right? Because then
06:16 we fall into this sort of, you know, trap of treating everybody of the same race as
06:21 a monolithic voice. And so, you know, across all communities, and I think that's the dangers
06:28 of the single narrative. And so, again, I think the questions that follow is what does
06:35 the data say? Is the data disaggregated enough? Are we getting a nuanced look at things? And
06:40 so, you know, with the hate incidents, it was, you know, initially it was extremely
06:47 focused on elders in major cities. And, you know, but there was no real data to track.
06:54 And so, you know, is there more attention on the issues? Yes. Are there more people
07:03 aware of it and working on the issues? Yes. Have we fixed it? Of course not. You know,
07:09 are there new organizations? The Asian American Foundation is one that was sort of born during
07:15 this, you know, difficult time, who have really done a wonderful job of building together
07:20 coalitions of both community and outside of community members, donation dollars, and leveraging
07:26 sort of what can we do at an institutional level or at a much higher level to then fund
07:33 the people who are working on the ground to do work like that. And, again, I think it's
07:38 also inspired many people to run for office, to work within administration, work within,
07:45 you know, different staffer roles. And so, and again, or, you know, as I'm doing and
07:50 as a lot of my other friends are doing, you know, leveraging media business opportunities
07:55 or even business themselves to represent our culture and ultimately, you know, sort of
08:02 pull on the economic empowerment lever when it comes to empowering our communities, because
08:07 it's all intertwined, right? So when we think about, you know, the hate incidents that we
08:11 unfortunately saw way too much of during the pandemic, part of it was economically impacted,
08:17 or it was because of the lack of economic opportunity that those families had. You know,
08:21 so for example, in Atlanta, when those women were working in those jobs, why would they
08:27 have to work in those jobs during a pandemic had they had economic safety? Why were the
08:34 sick Americans in Indianapolis working at the FedEx processing center, some of them
08:38 into their 70s during a pandemic? And so I hope that it's not swept under the rug. And
08:44 I hope that people start to ask the deeper questions of what does it look like to have
08:50 both privilege and safety and safety across all different levels. And so, you know, it
08:57 is policy, but it is also providing new ways to earn money to keep our families safe, to
09:05 provide resources for those people who need it. So it is a complex issue. I think the
09:10 short answer has to be yes, because the other side is hopelessness. And so, you know, we've
09:16 got a big election year coming up. And so, you know, funny enough, there are prominent
09:24 Asian Americans running on both sides. And there are many, many down ticket, you know,
09:29 folks. And so, again, I think we're far beyond and I'm sure this is, you know, very similar
09:33 topics within other communities as well. The identity politics is no longer a thing. But,
09:38 you know, does that person represent, do they understand my life? Do they understand some
09:43 of the challenges that our community broadly experiences? Or and if not, do they have people
09:48 under team to understand that? And do they have sort of that ability to think critically
09:54 about the whole community?
09:56 Yeah. And so you mentioned other communities. You and I have had many conversations off
10:01 camera about the intersectionality of different communities. So one piece of one date that
10:11 is really tattooed in my brain is 2045. That's the date at which if population growth continues
10:19 as it is, there will be more people of color in this country than not. And so the thing
10:28 that you and I have talked about is the things that we could do if those Americans that have
10:37 been from historically marginalized communities, when appropriate, work together, supported
10:44 each other versus seeing sort of each other as another other group. Can you talk to me
10:51 a bit about what you think needs to happen to create more of this intersectionality?
10:57 Yeah, it's conversations like this, Allie, because, you know, you know, I was I grew
11:06 up listening to a lot of hip hop. And so, you know, Tupac's song "Changes" comes to
11:09 mind when it when he talks about, you know, we have to start stop seeing each other as
11:13 as two distant strangers, and then think about how we're actually more aligned. And the only
11:17 way it the only way out is through us. And there are many levels through that, right.
11:22 And so, one, we have family and friends in our own networks who are of mixed race. And
11:29 so when you start this dangerous dialogue about one group not being able to get along
11:34 with the other side, or that we have to be opposite, how are you asking a human being
11:38 to be at odds with themselves, or to not love your son, daughter, you know, so that fundamentally
11:46 is a is not a human, you know, way to view this, you know, evolving demographic shift
11:53 to the things that we all suffer from are actually very much intertwined. And so, you
12:03 know, I think we have to look at what are the narratives that have been painted for
12:07 us and what are the stories that we've been told. And so one thing that comes a lot comes
12:12 up a lot, and it's been a hot topic issue with, you know, things like affirmative action
12:17 and access to things, you know, there's a real thing called the model minority myth.
12:22 And the model minority myth says that all Asians are smart, and they're educated, and
12:26 they're upwardly mobile, and they're, you know, financially better. And that narrative
12:31 has been used to paint or to discourage or to sort of divide two different groups. One,
12:37 other folks of color, namely black folks in this country, and saying, hey, if Asians can
12:41 figure it out, why can't you? And then it is also used for other Asians and saying,
12:47 hey, if these Asians can do it, why aren't you? Because then we fall victim into this
12:51 that everybody had the same starting point and the same opportunity and the same access,
12:55 and that it just became a matter of effort. That couldn't be further from the truth. And
13:00 so if you study American history and understand that certain types of Asian people from certain
13:04 countries with certain degrees, with certain both academic and professional upside were
13:10 specifically chosen by the U.S. government to be allowed into this country, and that's
13:16 from the post-Civil War 1965 act that allowed for that to fill both vacancies in American
13:26 higher education, American jobs, a lot of in the STEM fields. And you take that group
13:31 who were handpicked to be successful or already on their way to being successful, and then
13:36 you compare them to people who are either refugees themselves or descendants of slaves
13:40 in this country, that's not a fair argument. That is completely being weaponized to say,
13:46 well, why can't you? Well, that person was already getting their Ph.D. in mechanical
13:51 engineering, and we gave them a visa to get their master's degree here versus the person
13:56 who came with nothing because they were refugees from a war-torn country. And so, again, it
14:02 is then to think about how do we talk about the community that is both internally representative
14:09 of not just binary but a multitude of different circumstances, and then to think about how
14:15 do we get here, what were the things that we were told. And so, you know, I was born
14:18 in Korea, and we moved to a suburb of L.A. in January of 1992. And it was a very important
14:27 year and a very unfortunate year for the Korean community in L.A., the Asian community broadly,
14:32 and unfortunately, it impacted the way that I saw black Americans in this country because
14:38 Koreans call it "saigul," which simply means "four to nine." But April 29th to 1992 was
14:44 the day that after the announcement of the acquittal of the four white LAPD officers
14:50 that beat a black man named Rodney King on camera, mind you, in 1991, after that was
14:55 announced, there was -- some call it riots, some call it upheaval or unrest, but there
15:01 was this perceived media narrative of black and brown folks burning down Korean businesses.
15:07 And then this, you know, gross misrepresentation of Koreans, you know, arming their own stores
15:14 and, you know, getting guns and standing on rooftops. Well, so the narrative was that
15:21 there was angst because of the anger at LAPD that manifested in a riot against a predominantly
15:28 Korean heavy business district. We don't ask where were the police that day. They were
15:35 not there, but they were surrounding on the western side of L.A. or the western side of
15:41 Koreatown, west of Koreatown, communities that didn't look like me and you. Where were
15:46 the politicians that were speaking out? We didn't have very much representation. Were
15:50 there people in media that looked like me and you? Were there people in mainstream American
15:54 media that had friends on the ground? No. And so, you know, 31 years later, has that
16:00 been better? Yes, because we have, you know, both more representation in city and other
16:06 types of governments. At a national level, there have been more dialogue. And I think
16:10 it's also understanding that, you know, without going into too deep of a history lesson, what
16:14 were the historic economic policies and the sort of waves of disenfranchisement that happened
16:22 in both communities that led to that spark? Because you cannot focus simply on the spark.
16:28 You have to think about why was that circumstance or why was that just waiting to happen, right?
16:34 And so, you know, it's really deep. And I think, you know, who was allowed to open businesses,
16:41 who was allowed to own homes in certain neighborhoods, who then got to invest in certain things.
16:46 And, you know, it is, I think, layer that with the sort of the scarcity mindset of many
16:53 immigrants who just simply wanted to, you know, survive and not understanding and not
16:59 having that dialogue. And it is my hope, and hopefully I've contributed a little bit to
17:05 this conversation, that, you know, we just need to talk to each other. Because I think
17:10 once you have these conversations, whether it is on camera or just with your own community,
17:16 you start to understand that you're not so different after all. And you understand that
17:19 you have a lot of things that are similar, and that, you know, you empathize, and then
17:24 you humanize the entire experience. And so, you know, I am hopeful. But, you know, the
17:31 other part is, you know, so what? So, you know, in 20 plus years, you know, we're a
17:38 minority majority country. And I hate that term, too, by the way. Minority is only if
17:43 you manipulate the denominator of any equation, right? So, in any case, so then what? Again,
17:49 does that mean that we all vote a certain way? No. Does that mean that, you know, we're
17:53 going to start flipping elections? No. You know, because there are parts of this country
17:58 that are, you know, we're in New York, and I'm from L.A., and so, you know, New York
18:03 is 80 plus percent folks of color. And is that represented in city government, in business
18:09 leadership, in all sorts of stuff? No. And so, you know, how do we get folks involved
18:16 and engaged and standing together on platforms and issues to make sure that there are things
18:22 that fundamentally benefit everybody? Because I think there is certain policy that benefits
18:27 a lot of people, but it's just not never really presented that way.
18:30 Well, unfortunately, we are out of time. This has been, you know, really eye opening. And
18:38 as we at Forbes continue to cover communities more intentionally, I'll certainly be also
18:46 watching the way you're covering creating space and creating platforms to talk about
18:54 the diversity and diverse experiences within the AAPI community. So, thanks for being here
18:59 with us. Thanks for having me, Allie.
19:00 Thanks.
19:01 [END]