For the next conversation on Global Opportunities & Geopolitical Risks, with moderator: Steven Bertoni, Assistant Managing Editor, Founders, Forbes and panelists: Dambisa Moyo, Baroness and Member of the UK's House of Lords and Co-Principal of Versaca, a family office Oscar Fahlgren, Chief Investment Officer, Mubadala Capital and Mary Callahan Erdoes, CEO, J.P. Morgan Asset & Wealth Management.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00For the next conversation on global opportunities and geopolitical risks, please welcome moderator
00:07Stephen Bertone, assistant managing editor, founders, Forbes, and panelist Ambiza Moyo,
00:15baroness and member of the UK's House of Lords and co-principal of Versace, a family
00:21office.
00:22Oscar Fahlgren, chief investment officer, Mubadala Capital, and Mary Callahan Erdos,
00:28CEO, JP Morgan Asset and Wealth Management.
00:37Good morning, everyone.
00:38Hello, everyone.
00:39Welcome.
00:40Thank you.
00:41Welcome to Iconoclast.
00:42I'm also excited to welcome all of our many virtual viewers who have just tuned in for
00:47this amazing event.
00:49How's everyone doing today?
00:50All right.
00:51I'm going to take a poll.
00:53Who is ready to hear a few billion-dollar investment opportunities right now?
01:00See some hands.
01:01Let's go.
01:02Well, we have a perfect panel, three amazing financial minds that have a full global view,
01:09and I'm just going to start to make it easy.
01:11I'm going to ask a question based on the topic.
01:14Ambiza, where are you seeing opportunities, and what are you nervous about?
01:19What are the risks?
01:20Well, thank you.
01:21I'm delighted to be here again this year.
01:24I think the way I would frame it is, on the one hand, we have two super cycles that are
01:31in their early innings, AI, which was discussed a moment ago, and the energy transition.
01:36There's no doubt about it.
01:37Since the 1980s, we have not had really the enormous prospects and enormous opportunity
01:44that these two engines of growth could actually deliver.
01:48On the risk side, it's very well known that there are enormous constraints around the
01:52world, very well known that the forecast for economic growth from organizations like
01:57the IMF and even independent government continues to be weak and is expected to be weak for
02:02the next decade or at least half decade.
02:06Issues around geopolitics, deglobalization are continuing to add costs and headwinds
02:12to the potential opportunities from the growth cycles that I mentioned a moment ago.
02:17In terms of regions, I think it would be very interesting to hear what my co-panelists
02:22are thinking.
02:23From my vantage point, I really do believe it's very hard to bet against the United States.
02:29Of course, there's a lot of sort of dynamics around the political side, but I think fundamentally
02:36you have a base in the form of investors who are putting real capital to work.
02:42Of course, there's a lot of discernment that's going to be required where the cost of capital
02:45is where it is.
02:46But I feel like unlike many other places in the world, which I'm very interested to hear
02:50Oscar and Mary's thoughts on this, but I think the challenges of investing elsewhere and
02:57generating those returns on a risk-adjusted basis and delivering them back into wherever
03:01investors are, I think that model is fundamentally challenged since the world is becoming much
03:05more siloed.
03:06I think there are opportunities in the United States.
03:09I'm excited about a lot of the AI opportunities, second order, so it's not just about NVIDIA.
03:15It's really about what does this do for the stack, what does it do for other sectors that
03:20have traditionally not benefited from technology, such as the healthcare sector, as one example.
03:25So lots of opportunity and full disclosure, I'm on the board of Chevron, so I'm very closely
03:31interested in the energy transition and the enormous opportunities there as well.
03:34Oscar, what makes you excited?
03:35What makes you scared?
03:36Listen, I think I'll split the question in emerging markets and sort of developed markets.
03:42I think when we look at the emerging market landscape in terms of opportunities, the world's
03:47gone through a big change.
03:48The BRICs are, you know, some of them are almost impossible to invest in today.
03:52You know, Russia is already off the table.
03:54China is complicated for a variety of reasons of geopolitical and otherwise.
04:01I think India and Brazil stands out for us, particularly for us, Brazil.
04:07I think we continue to see tremendous opportunities in that country driven by a lack of capital,
04:14driven by – they're sort of a little bit out of flavor with the world, and that presents
04:18very attractive opportunities if you really dig in and you're on the ground finding opportunities.
04:24So that's one of the – on the emerging market sector or emerging market space where I think
04:28we have a pretty attractive opportunity set right now, particularly in green energy where
04:36there is a tremendous amount of work being done in Brazil.
04:38I think on the more western front, you know, and risk, you know, we continue to think,
04:44you know, Europe has individual opportunities, but it's pretty sluggish in general as an economy.
04:50And I think when we look to the U.S., I'd say the opposite almost.
04:54U.S. continues to sort of power on against all odds in our view.
05:00But I think the – what worries us a little bit is obviously, you know, there's a tremendous
05:04wall of debt maturities coming up in the private equity.
05:08You know, a large part of it owned by the private equity industry.
05:11We're seeing a lack of exits and tremendous amounts of dry powder.
05:16So from an opportunity set, that is sort of dampening the opportunity set a little bit,
05:21I would say.
05:22Wonderful.
05:23Mary, JP Morgan, what, 5 trillion assets you guys are shepherding?
05:26Yes, proudly shepherding.
05:28But Steve, I want to thank you for running this panel, but I want to thank the real Steve,
05:33Mr. Forbes, and the whole Forbes family and the Forbes staff.
05:37This is a – this is a really special event.
05:39And they somehow hit it every year at this time when things are like, oh, they calmed
05:44down from the first quarter.
05:46Everything should be okay.
05:47We're headed into the summer.
05:48It feels pretty good.
05:49And then, you know, there's a lot of things at stake, a couple of interest rate moves,
05:55differentials shaking the world a little bit here.
05:57So – Wait, did you just call Steve Forbes the real Steve?
05:59I did.
06:00Oh, man.
06:01But we're very appreciative that you always have us, all of us here, and with such great
06:09panelists.
06:10So I love this event.
06:11I learn a lot.
06:12I just learned a lot from the last panel.
06:15And I'll just tell you that you asked – you asked a great question.
06:18You said, what are you excited about, and I think, what are you afraid of, or something
06:21like that.
06:22Like, if those two things don't go together, you're not investing in the right thing.
06:25Because if you're not afraid of the thing that you're investing in, then it's probably
06:29already been figured out and the like.
06:32So you have to think about – of course, you have your core portfolio, but you're
06:35asking about the things on the margin, like what's on the margin that could be exciting,
06:40but obviously is going to be a little stomach-churning because it would probably be in the nontraditional
06:45space.
06:46And so I'll just take the opposite side for one second here.
06:49So Danbisa said, you know, China as a place that's super hard to invest, and as a whole,
06:54I would wholeheartedly agree.
06:56Like, if you were just to sort of invest in the country, that's a hard thing given
07:02all the geopolitical issues, where they are in the cycle of their own interest rate environment,
07:08their consumer spending, real estate problems, et cetera.
07:12But having just come back from there, we have – JP Morgan brings together about a thousand
07:18delegates every year over – right before Memorial Day, and it's a place where you
07:24have the CEOs of the local Chinese companies, and then you have investors from around the
07:28world.
07:29This year, it was 3,000 people, and it was the highest percentage of international investors
07:36and international CEOs coming to explore.
07:40That doesn't mean it's ready for a bull market, but it means that people are starting
07:44to say, what's scary, but what could be opportunistic?
07:47And you look at the things that are happening there – I mean, we all go to these places
07:52all around the world, as do many of you.
07:55And I remember after the great financial crisis, when we started to embark on EVs being something
08:00that the world was going to embrace.
08:03China said that they were going to do it.
08:05That was like 2009.
08:06The U.S. really embarked on it in 2010.
08:10And seven years later, you show up in Shenzhen, and 100 percent of the transportation industry
08:17– the buses, if you will – are EVs – 100 percent.
08:21That was seven years later.
08:23It was in 2017.
08:24Now there's multiple cities in China that have that, and we're in 2024.
08:29Los Angeles has 2,000 buses and might get there by 2030.
08:34So you say to yourself, like, there's a country that when they put their mind to something
08:41– it could be a narrow industry, it could be a narrow thing.
08:43You may not like the way they get there, but when they do, there are interesting opportunities
08:48that present themselves.
08:49And so we think that there's a lot of things that, while the markets are nervous about
08:54the broader issues, you can find very particular stocks that can be super exciting.
08:59I would say the same for Europe.
09:00Europe is also a little bit hard.
09:02We've had the Swiss National Bank lower rates.
09:06We had the U.K. hold rates flat.
09:09But we've got the EU in general coming down, and I would just say they're a little bit
09:12ahead of the U.S.
09:13Remember that that gives – that's what the U.S. is waiting for, just a little bit
09:16more fodder to the fire to keep things going.
09:20So now you say, OK, wait, something happened, something changed.
09:22This could be very interesting.
09:24And you look at the multiples of even just take the pharmaceuticals, which you're heavily
09:29involved in the health care business, and you say, well, there's things like Norvo
09:34that has the Wigovi and the Ozempic.
09:39And then you look at the multiple of that, which is a fraction of the multiple of Lilly,
09:44and they're doing the same thing, and they have the same revenue growth rates in the
09:47mid-double digits and same profit rate.
09:50Why is the differential so much if they're selling to a global market?
09:54See, it's because they sit in the region that they're in.
09:56And the same will go for emerging markets, and I think that's where when you really
10:00get on the fringes, you say it's been really hard to invest in emerging markets, particularly
10:05in the public markets.
10:06But now you start to think about what's out there in the private markets.
10:09How do some of these industries, big industries, especially on the energy transition space?
10:15What you're mentioning is actually something we agree wholeheartedly with in the sense
10:20that the average is not that attractive.
10:22The average over time tends to trend down to something that doesn't look worthwhile
10:26from a risk-adjusted perspective.
10:28But I think when you actually get below the indices and below the public comps and you're
10:32in the markets and you're looking for opportunities, both in emerging markets but also in the environment
10:38where we find ourselves in the U.S. now, there are tremendous opportunities for those
10:41that are willing to dig in and actually do more bespoke deals.
10:45And I think the way we like to articulate it internally is a little bit that as an investment
10:50community to sort of fight against the vast amount of dry powder and the lack of exits
10:58in the market, in reality what we need to do is sort of migrate up the complexity scale
11:02a little bit in order to generate alpha in a market where the standard sort of options
11:07that are ongoing, it's just who bids lowest cost capital and that game is not one that
11:13we're willing to engage in.
11:14When you all enter a new market, whether it's maybe an EV company in China or in Brazil
11:20alternative energy, biofuels, how do you diligence?
11:24How do you find kind of a target and how, again, these are risky and how do you balance
11:27that I'm excited but also this is making me nauseous?
11:30How do you decide to pull the trigger?
11:32What kind of data, what kind of diligence do you do in making these bets?
11:36I mean, it obviously varies with sector, right?
11:38But I think at the end of the day, the earlier stage it is, so like in biofuels in Brazil,
11:44for instance, where we have a very large project and an emerging market, the amount of work
11:49that goes into it is tremendous.
11:50So I think if you think about the project we're just launching now where we're doing,
11:55you know, sustainable aviation fuel from a native crop, we have spent over three years
11:59in diligence on this project.
12:00So it is a tremendous effort and I think, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
12:05of people working on it nonstop for three years before we get to the point where we're
12:09comfortable with everything, whether it's the regulatory part, whether it's, you know,
12:12dealing with the government, ensuring the right support, ensuring the right regulation,
12:16doing all the testing of the product.
12:17So it is a very manual project and a very manual sort of investment process.
12:22But I think that is also what at the end of the day our investors pay us to do.
12:26As you visit the customers, you go hear the reality of what the product itself is doing,
12:32you're sitting on the ground, you're sitting in the lobby of the building watching people
12:37come in.
12:38Do they have smiles on their faces?
12:39Do they not?
12:40Are they frustrated?
12:41What kind of people come in?
12:42You look at the list of in the old-fashioned way you sign in for who goes to what building.
12:46You get a sense of what happens and you have to immerse yourself in this stuff because
12:50we are responsible for other people's money.
12:54And if other people are going to entrust us as fiduciaries of their money, it is the
12:58single most important thing we do, which is we unturn every single rock we can to make
13:04sure that as your stomach is churning on the things that you say, I've done everything
13:09I can to say yes or no.
13:12The hardest thing is actually saying no after three years.
13:15Yeah.
13:16Yeah.
13:17Maybe just to add on the point about diligence.
13:19I think one of the most overlooked aspects of diligence is actually really looking at
13:25what the locals are doing.
13:27I've been quite astonished.
13:28And actually, I'm sure this audience is perhaps relatively young, but when you're a person
13:34of a certain age as I am, you will remember the 1980s and Brady's remarks and the issues
13:39around the Mexican debt crisis and a lot of other crises in Latin America.
13:44And one of the takeaways from that was actually there was a lot of evidence that locals were
13:50no longer investing in the markets.
13:52And so that to me is a dead giveaway.
13:54And so, you know, using that as an additional tool of due diligence and just looking around
13:58the world and thinking about what are the pension funds doing, what are the endowments
14:02doing?
14:03This is supposed to be baseline foundational investors in an economy.
14:06I'm just picking a region here, not a sector.
14:09I think looking at what is happening in that, to me, is always a great telltale sign.
14:13And I'm afraid, although I serve in the House of Lords, that I should be rah, rah, rah about
14:17the UK all the time.
14:18I mean, one of the things that we've been very concerned about is that pension funds
14:21in the United Kingdom only have 1.6% exposure in the UK market.
14:26I mean, that tells you a lot about what's going on.
14:29And the country has been trading at a discount relative to the rest of the world for that
14:32reason.
14:33So I'm very interested in what endowments and pension funds are doing.
14:36And if you find that they're not investing in a particular market, and by the way, China
14:40is another example of where we hear a lot of stories about people, you know, literally
14:44investors moving out of China.
14:47They claim to be investing in China, but they're based out of Singapore.
14:49I mean, I think it's a telltale sign that we look back on later and say, well, actually,
14:53we kind of got a whiff that this was problematic.
14:55And by and large, when you ask just in terms of flows and related to the point I just made,
15:00where are people putting money to work?
15:02It's coming back into the United States.
15:03And I think that also is a very basic and maybe obvious point to make.
15:07But I think it's very often overlooked.
15:09You mentioned you...
15:10Danbisa sits on the House of Lords, so she gets debriefed by MI6, by James Bond is kind
15:15of telling you what's going on.
15:16As he damn well should.
15:17Yes.
15:18As he damn well should.
15:19And you mentioned a lot of regulation and also discussion about AI that the House of
15:26Lords and the government's doing.
15:27I'd love to, you know, describe a little bit of this.
15:30And then also from Oscar, Mary here, you know, we have to talk about AI.
15:33It's a Conocos panel.
15:34And here, what you're seeing more on the ground level.
15:37So what...
15:38Yeah.
15:40Well, actually, one of the...
15:41I'm on record as being quite critical of the legislative approach.
15:45Because I think, unlike the United States, I believe, the places across Europe, so not
15:51just in Britain, but I think across Europe, we have decided that the word regulation is
15:57a synonym to risk mitigation.
15:59So, you know, we think about these big juggernauts, and as I said, these super cycles of AI and
16:03the energy transition.
16:04And too often, it will come to debate in the Lords chamber.
16:07And the discussion is about how should we be regulating this, but really with a risk
16:11mitigation frame of mind.
16:13Very different from what I would call an investor landscape.
16:16And I think Mary hinted at this.
16:18Sure, you have to think about risk.
16:20But at the same time, you want to lean into those opportunities.
16:23And when I think about my board experiences and how we think about really betting and
16:28putting the marginal dollar to work to generate returns above the cost of capital, you can't
16:34be thinking about risk in a sort of way to hamstring.
16:37If you're thinking about risk as a tool and an input to investing into these cycles.
16:44So I'm sure I'm going to get my finger wagged at me when I get back to London.
16:49But I do think there's a fundamental difference between looking at these cycles as investment
16:54opportunities versus as risk mitigation.
16:56I think too often in Europe, and I think this is reflected in the performance and multiples,
17:03too often I think there's a preponderance to think about risk mitigation in the regulatory
17:08environment.
17:09What do you all think?
17:10Mary, you said...
17:11Well, I mean, so I think that the AI question, by the way, the whole day, if it's not filled
17:17with AI, you'd get your money back.
17:21If it's not filled with AI, then it's not infused in that part of the investment dialogue.
17:29And that should probably concern you.
17:32Because when you asked the question about due diligence, I was thinking to myself something
17:35I just wanted to weave in, and it naturally ties with AI.
17:38We were talking about it a little bit before this.
17:40AI is technology multiplied by multiples of what it was.
17:47Like it would be like not talking about the Internet when the Internet came out and thinking
17:50about like, oh, could I have a website?
17:52Could I do a...
17:53Like, if you aren't thinking about that and having that, like, are you really going to
17:56compete in the future world?
17:58That's what AI is.
18:00We don't know what it will be for every company.
18:02We don't know exactly how it will manifest itself.
18:06But if you are not deep into thinking about what your teams are doing, do you have an...
18:11I call it an AI whisperer.
18:13You need a 27-year-old like right by your side all day long telling you like, this is
18:18how I ask the questions.
18:20It's much better.
18:21I can be your instant prompt engineer training person.
18:24I can help you to figure out this stuff.
18:26And you start going through it.
18:28And this coming Wednesday, we have 31 demos that are happening.
18:32We have an AI workshop going on.
18:35And it's everything from getting rid of what I call no joy work.
18:40Like, who wants to wake up in the morning and do the same thing all day long?
18:45Do you know how much of the world functions that way?
18:49Nobody wants to do that.
18:50So it's not that AI is going to put that job out of business.
18:53AI is going to put that function out of business so that that person can actually go to work
18:58and have joy and do something that is like musing their brain and actually adding value
19:03to the moving things from point A to point B. And so you start to, A, take away the no
19:07joy work.
19:08B, you start to think about, like, how do I delight my client?
19:11How do I delight my customer?
19:13How do I get smarter?
19:14Andreas was talking about how does he get smarter on making investments?
19:17Like, all of this, almost everything you do.
19:19And I say to people, if you're doing due diligence on a company and you go to meet the CEO, like,
19:26ask them if they have GPT, like, not just on their phone, but, like, on the home page
19:31of their phone.
19:32If it's not on the home page of their phone, they haven't substituted it for a simple Google
19:37search.
19:38They haven't infused it in the way.
19:39They don't have a 27-year-old sitting next to them telling what to do all day long.
19:43And you've got to have this to know these companies.
19:46Are they going to be able to figure out how to energy?
19:47I'm proud to say that I've downloaded the app.
19:48I have ChatGPT.
19:49Excellent.
19:50That's half of our return generation.
19:54Think about the energy businesses that you're invested in and the energy transition work
19:59that you're both doing.
20:00If you don't, AI is going to be a massive generator of how that gets much more efficient.
20:06And I think the, you know, everyone talks about it, whether it's open AI or a competing
20:10technology, and that's obviously tremendously important, but I think, you know, a bit of
20:14a winner-takes-it-all kind of market.
20:16I think for us as an investor and, you know, in terms of managing money, it's using AI
20:22to generate better returns is where I'm actually more excited at our level in terms of what
20:26we're doing.
20:27You know, our venture guys will disagree, and they're looking at the AI segment in general,
20:31but at the more private equity level of the businesses, you know, it's the boring businesses
20:35that have started seeing the most impact from AI, at least in our portfolio.
20:39We have, like, you know, toll roads.
20:40What did you say?
20:41The boring businesses?
20:43The boring businesses.
20:44Boring businesses.
20:45Yes, exactly.
20:46Like, we have a toll road where by a simple computer system with active cameras or whatever,
20:51we were able to re-categorize the traffic that went through, and it bumped our top
20:55line by, like, 7% on a toll road, right?
20:58So that's, like, real money generation, and I think someone said to me that, you know,
21:03AI will not displace humans.
21:05Humans that know how to use AI will displace humans that don't, and I believe in that,
21:09and I think that's how we try to embrace AI in our work.
21:12And maybe I would just, not to be the negative Nelly here, but I think, you know, we're all
21:16euphoric about GDP is going to grow by $17 trillion by 2030, productivity gains, which
21:22have been talked about here, but make no doubt about it, and I think Oski just made the point,
21:27there are going to be winners and losers, and I think the great concern is that there
21:31is going to be a lot of carnage.
21:32I mean, right now, the rough estimate is about $130 billion of capital going into the AI
21:39space and different aspects of it, and, you know, just looking at where multiples are
21:44and what that would mean in terms of returns, at, you know, 20 to 25 times multiple, you're
21:50talking about close to $2 trillion, over $2 trillion of value being created every year.
21:55I mean, this is what's in the minds of investors, and, sure, there will be winners.
22:00I really do fundamentally believe that, and I do think from technology adoption curves
22:04and a lot of the information that's out there already, it could happen much sooner.
22:08We don't have to build out enormous amounts of infrastructure.
22:10It's on your mobile phone, as you mentioned a moment ago, Mary.
22:13But I think it would be foolhardy from an investment perspective not to recognize that
22:17I do think there's going to be a lot of losses, and I think we just don't know where.
22:22I think there's a lot of work that's being done on the stack and figuring out, you know,
22:26as I said, it's not just NVIDIA, but what happens in terms of applications and other
22:29sectors and the knock-on effects could be enormous.
22:32But there are also going to be a lot of losses, and I think people need to be very much aware
22:38of that.
22:39Let me throw an interesting thing, or at least I find it interesting, to tie AI and energy
22:44transition together again.
22:46And I think, you know, today we have slightly higher numbers than you had, but, you know,
22:51call it $150 billion going into AI on an annual basis, about 10 times that going into energy
22:55transition, and today we have, you know, call it 10% of green energy share of the global
23:02energy transaction if you're being generous.
23:06With AI, there are a lot of forecasts now saying because of the intensity, the data
23:10intensity, the computing power needed, et cetera, that if you couple that with the general
23:16forecast for the planet, in reality we're expecting energy consumption to potentially
23:20even double by 2050.
23:23That means from an energy transition perspective, if you can get, you know, even a 50%, life's
23:32bad, right?
23:34So AI is actually accentuating the need for even more capital to flow, and that's why
23:40when we look at the investment, you know, flows going forward, it's pretty clear that
23:44AI and energy transition is going to take a very large chunk of those capital flows
23:49and be very interesting.
23:50But it also highlights what, you know, we think is important is that, you know, when
23:55it comes to energy transition, the world needs to, like, wake up and get off their high horses
23:59and start tackling real change.
24:01You're very unique.
24:02Your definition of energy transition is different than a lot of these feel-good kind of funds.
24:07Tell me, tell everyone real quick specifically, what do you mean by energy transition?
24:11For us, energy transition is about decarbonizing as fast as possible, and whilst generating
24:16return, I do fundamentally not believe that the world will get fixed by subsidies and
24:21tax breaks in industries that are not self-sustainable.
24:24If you want to see massive capital flows backing up an energy transition play, those capital
24:30flows need to make money, because those capital flows at the end of the day are the retired
24:33people and, you know, pension funds everywhere around the world.
24:37If they don't make money, it's going to be a fringe activity to make people feel good.
24:40So I think the approach we've taken is much more sort of trying to put transition back
24:46into energy transition, take bad assets and make them good, as opposed to we don't touch
24:52bad assets.
24:54I think, in fact, the latter strategy is just detrimental to the whole energy transition.
24:59If we don't do that, we will not succeed.
25:01Yeah, we cannot succeed.
25:03And it's even worse.
25:04You're starving energy-intensive companies from capital, pushing them into the hands
25:09of people that manage them for short-term cash as opposed to long-term change.
25:14And I think that's the wrong thing to do.
25:15So we're investing very heavily in this and trying to find – and we have one, we believe,
25:20in Brazil – a truly economically sustainable alternative that can take on fossil at its
25:25own game.
25:26And I think it's really – it's great that you've made that point, because I think,
25:31in a strange way, the fact that the cost of capital has gone up, obviously in the fight
25:36against inflation, it's actually made the discussions around the energy transition much
25:42more sophisticated.
25:44You know, in a world where money is free or cheap, people throw stuff on the wall, people
25:49become very disruptive.
25:51But the discipline, going back to due diligence in a world where it's expensive, is really
25:55forcing us to think about how we really are going to replace the fact that we are consuming
25:59100 million barrels of oil every single day.
26:03And there still are a billion and a half people who don't have access to energy in a reliable,
26:07cost-effective, and scalable way.
26:09So these are real structural problems that require real sensible answers and the allocation
26:13of capital in a way that's done in a very disciplined and smart way.
26:17And I'm afraid that that's actually happened more and more because capital's become more
26:23expensive.
26:24Well, unfortunately, oh, fortunately, we could talk about AI and energy for hours,
26:28but unfortunately, we're out of time.
26:29But a big round of applause, Mary, Oscar, Donvisa, thank you so much, and thank you.