Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00 The U.S. urging Israel to spare civilian life.
00:05 The guns started talking again while the U.S. Secretary of State was still in the region.
00:10 Antony Blinken, who blames Hamas for the return to fighting.
00:15 I made clear that after the pause, it was imperative that Israel put in place clear
00:22 protections for civilians and for sustaining humanitarian assistance going forward.
00:28 It's also important to understand why the pause came to an end.
00:33 It came to an end because of Hamas.
00:37 Hamas reneged on commitments it made.
00:38 In fact, even before the pause came to an end, it committed an atrocious terrorist attack
00:43 in Jerusalem, killing three people, wounding others, including Americans.
00:47 It began firing rockets before the pause had ended.
00:50 And as I said, it reneged on the commitments it made in terms of releasing certain hostages.
00:55 Well, for more, let's go to Tel Aviv.
00:58 Harold Shorrev is head of the Middle East desk for the Middle East Network Analysis
01:02 Center at the, at the, at the Diane Center, rather, at Tel Aviv University.
01:07 Thank you for speaking with us here on France 24.
01:11 A lot to unpack what we just heard there from the U.S. Secretary of State.
01:15 What have you been able to parse as to why the truce collapsed?
01:21 The truce collapsed because, well, Hamas probably reached to an understanding that Israel will
01:28 start one way or another or fulfill its promise to initiate again the attack against Hamas
01:39 if they will fail to provide the kidnaps that they, which they did.
01:45 Yesterday, they were trying to trade three bodies instead of three alive kidnapped.
01:51 And I think anyone who watched the scene could understand that we're reaching to an end in
01:58 that phase, in the current phase, at least, and that fire will be resumed very soon.
02:04 I think Hamas wanted to make the first step, because we need to remember that part of the
02:10 Hamas message during all this time, including during the ceasefire, is we're in control.
02:17 We are releasing kidnapped, even from the center of Gaza, which is surrounded by Israeli
02:22 forces.
02:23 And this is part of this message, actually.
02:26 Part of the message?
02:27 I mean, they're still holding, what, an estimated 80, 80 hostages?
02:30 Oh, no, more, more.
02:34 Something like around 140.
02:37 I don't know exactly, because unfortunately every now and then we hear about the finding
02:43 of another body or two bodies.
02:45 We were just being told about new three bodies of kidnap that were murdered in the Hamas
02:52 captivity.
02:54 And it's, so the number changes frequently.
02:59 But we're still talking about a significant number of hostages being held by Hamas.
03:05 So who controls the narrative right now?
03:08 You seem to be implying that Hamas does.
03:11 I don't think they're controlling the narrative.
03:13 I think there is a huge void between what Hamas thinks the situation is and what it
03:19 really is.
03:20 I think they're not aware, they're in a certain euphoria regarding their position.
03:28 They are hoping the international community will come to save them.
03:32 They think they have the time.
03:34 Frankly, I don't think this is the situation.
03:37 I don't think they really understand how much the public in Israel is determined this time
03:44 to eliminate Hamas.
03:45 And the reason is that not only the October 7th horrifying events are still echoing, but
03:54 rather the new stories that we're getting from the hostages, for example, starving,
04:00 bleeding with electricity cables, pointing guns to 12-year-old children.
04:08 That makes the Israeli public furious.
04:10 Rapes.
04:11 That makes the Israeli public furious.
04:14 And I think Hamas is not aware that this won't be another round.
04:19 And it, of course, affects its judgment.
04:21 Yeah.
04:22 At the same time, though, this Friday you've described the mood inside of Israel.
04:28 Inside of Israel, they're sharing, for instance, images on social media of the leaflets that
04:35 were dropped telling people where to go to safe zones, saying there's confusion.
04:39 We don't know how many civilians have been killed in Gaza this Friday.
04:44 In the rest of the world, the focus and the images are squarely about Palestinian civilians.
04:50 Well, I mean, if you want, anyone, I mean, can find many videos of Hamas fighting in
05:00 civilians clothing, not in uniforms.
05:04 And then, you know, when they died, they presented as civilians.
05:08 Today, we need to remember that the targeting attacks, targeted attacks today by Israel
05:16 were immediately after the ceasefire, where Israel could really gather a lot of information
05:25 and therefore to execute those attacks.
05:27 So I can assure you that any one of the, I don't know, Hamas is reporting about 21 who
05:34 died are probably part of this, are probably part of the Hamas infrastructure, even if
05:41 they are dressed as civilians.
05:46 Really, I cannot express how much we are aware here about the downside of hitting civilians,
05:55 innocent civilians.
05:56 It's not something that we just say, OK, this is the Second World War, let's kill everybody.
06:01 That's not the atmosphere ever.
06:03 It wasn't the atmosphere in Israel.
06:06 We are only interested in eliminating Hamas military power.
06:12 And so I think this is what we saw today, whatever Hamas will present it.
06:17 Again, that's how you feel inside of Israel.
06:19 The headlines read bombings in Han Yunis and Rafah.
06:23 So the question again is, is to a certain degree Hamas winning the public relations
06:29 war?
06:31 Well, you know, first of all, it's social media and all those echo chambers there which
06:36 you cannot really penetrate.
06:37 There is a narrative, there is a fake news.
06:40 And you know, go fight against fake news when someone wants to believe something.
06:46 He's in this echo chamber, he will never go out.
06:49 We know this phenomenon not from today, not from yesterday.
06:52 It's a really an established phenomenon.
06:56 And presenting them as civilians.
06:59 Having said that, we need to remember we are talking about a vicious enemy that, you know,
07:06 when you hear about the October 7th and the way they tortured, they kidnapped, you see
07:13 that they have no limits in terms of any humanitarian standard.
07:20 And therefore, they're using the civilians as human shields.
07:26 And this is not a new thing.
07:28 It's not that we're having bases of Hamas that everybody knows where they are.
07:33 They're using them on their hospitals.
07:36 By the way, take note how many of the hospitals in Gaza were proved to be based of, bases
07:46 of Hamas.
07:47 Harold Sharif, you mentioned at the outset of the conversation how the writing was on
07:51 the wall that this truce was coming to an end.
07:54 And part of that on Thursday was the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken cautioning
08:01 his hosts to try to spare civilian lives.
08:06 What's your sense of what the conversation was in private?
08:10 Well, I think on private, Antony Blinken said, listen, we have our own problems within the
08:17 Democratic Party or its voters.
08:20 Please do your best.
08:22 And one of the outcomes is this map.
08:24 I don't know if you saw it.
08:25 So it's just please, just please do your best.
08:27 It wasn't pressure at all on Netanyahu?
08:30 Listen, anyone who knows the Gaza Strip as an arena, as a military arena, knows that
08:39 it's almost impossible to do something there without, you know, collateral damage, whatever
08:46 you're going to do.
08:47 So he asked Israel, of course, to do its best.
08:51 I actually think that what we saw today was probably the most precise targeting that you
08:57 can think of or plan, because it was it came after a long ceasefire, which allowed, as
09:05 I said, Israel to gather information.
09:07 And therefore, you saw it right on the first two hours or so.
09:14 And as I said before, we saw that plan, which is obviously an outcome of the American pressure
09:22 to do something and to avoid evacuating civilians or creating a huge humanitarian crisis, a
09:32 map that actually divided the Gaza Strip into dozens and dozens of areas.
09:38 And while the IDF is instructing people to move from one area to another and by that
09:45 trying to avoid, you know, mass immigration, because it's going to be a problem, no doubt
09:51 about it.
09:52 This is a very, very tough urban jungle.
09:56 And I'm sure the IDF is trying to do its best to avoid the human casualties, regardless
10:03 of Hamas interest to use them as human shields.
10:08 Even if they even if they do spare a maximum number of civilian lives, they'll be destroying
10:13 buildings.
10:14 There'll be more people displaced.
10:16 How much time realistically does Israel have?
10:19 Well, I think that taking into account the backing from the U.S. and from other friends
10:31 of Israel around the world, particularly Germany, I think that all of them are aware of what
10:38 happened on October 7 and that we cannot go back to October 6 in that term and Hamas need
10:47 to be removed.
10:49 You know, if Hamas, as a historian of the Palestinians and the Middle East, who really
10:56 took off or rid of Hamas as the most negative player in the last 30 years, who acted openly
11:07 against any settlement with Israel, I think will have a very positive effect eventually,
11:14 despite of all what we're going to go through, unfortunately, in the coming months.
11:20 I think the effect-
11:21 So you're saying it's going to be months?
11:22 You think it's going to be months of what?
11:26 Unfortunately, unfortunately, I think it's going to take months or many weeks, because
11:35 it won't be a walk in the park.
11:38 As we see, we see that it's not a normal war.
11:42 It's, you know, when you're torturing a 12-year-old kid, there is something deeper there in the
11:50 level of hate and radicalism, which is much more like Hitler in a bunker rather than any
11:57 other war that we are used to.
12:00 Okay?
12:01 But if your prediction is true that it is weeks or even months of war, aren't you going
12:05 to be manufacturing another cycle of hate?
12:11 No doubt about it.
12:12 But, you know, it would be like to ask France in 1944, 1945, if they're not afraid of creating
12:22 another cycle of hate with Germany.
12:24 You're saying, okay, enough is enough.
12:26 We need to finish with this Nazi enemy and to de-radicalize it.
12:32 And of course, with all the investment and everything that needs to be side to side after
12:39 this de-Hamasization of the Gaza Strip.
12:43 But we cannot really, you know, go half and half.
12:46 It won't work.
12:47 The next round would be even more difficult and bloody.
12:52 And I think after so many years of bloodshed that this needs to be concluded once and for
12:59 all and to create a different atmosphere for both Israelis and Palestinians.
13:05 Creation after World War II, well, that led to the creation of the European Union, economic
13:10 cooperation between the French and the Germans.
13:14 Benjamin Netanyahu has not been a big advocate of making peace with the Palestinians in his
13:19 decades in power.
13:21 Well, I won't defend Benjamin Netanyahu, but I think the picture is much more complex.
13:29 Being fully aware of what happened during those years, the Palestinians, Mahmoud Abbas
13:39 was not really a partner in so many senses.
13:42 You can ask the Americans about it.
13:45 And but, you know, I think Netanyahu won't stay after this war in power.
13:52 And you have enough people in Israel who wants to make peace with the Palestinians.
13:57 And by the way, again, I'm not sure that Benjamin Netanyahu didn't want to.
14:01 He was always afraid from this scenario that we're living at the moment.
14:07 It's not something theoretical anymore.
14:09 It was always on the table.
14:11 After redrawing from the Gaza Strip in 2005, we saw the process.
14:16 It was there.
14:17 If you leave a place, for example, the West Bank, will we get, will the Israelis be attacked
14:24 by a semi-state, a terror state?
14:30 Well, the answer is yes, a clear yes.
14:34 But still, let's leave it optimistic.
14:37 I really think that after the removal of Hamas and the creation of a new atmosphere, a lot
14:44 of investment in the Gaza Strip, really, we can take it to a much better place.
14:50 Harold Shariff, I want to thank you so much for joining us from Tel Aviv.