Category
✨
PeopleTranscript
00:00 I want to turn to the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.
00:05 What is your view of this war?
00:07 I think when you call it a war, you're doing a disservice to the people
00:11 who are having their limbs blown off by some of the most advanced technical weaponry on the planet.
00:16 It is a genocide and it is disgusting.
00:17 And it doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on.
00:22 When you observe a genocide in front of your very eyes, you should be disgusted.
00:25 Which side is waging genocide?
00:27 The Israelis are genociding the Palestinians and you know it as well as everybody else does.
00:31 Well then it seems like your bosses are not allowing you to know it.
00:34 What do you think of what Hamas did on October 7th?
00:36 Why are you starting the story in the middle, Piers?
00:39 I just asked you about the wider war.
00:41 I'm now asking you specifically about Hamas.
00:43 I cannot professionally answer that question without talking about the context that led up to October 7th.
00:48 Well, nothing to my mind justifies what happened on October 7th.
00:51 Nothing justifies what happened before October 7th, Piers.
00:53 This is the exact point. So you're talking to a man.
00:55 I don't know what answer you expect from me because let's forget the fact that I'm a Muslim.
00:58 You're talking to a man who is fighting oppression to the best of his ability
01:02 because he believes that the people in charge of the world are enslaving us all
01:05 to the point where I detriment my own life.
01:07 I end up in a jail cell because I'm speaking against oppression.
01:09 Then you're asking me what I would do if my family was blown to pieces?
01:13 You're not in a jail hangar.
01:14 You're asking me what I would do if another government came along and blew my family to pieces?
01:19 You weren't put in a jail cell because of any oppression.
01:22 Absolutely I was.
01:23 No, you weren't.
01:24 Of course I was. You were put in jail cell because you've been accused of serious sexual crimes.
01:26 I would not have been accused if I was not monumentally successful in speaking the truth.
01:30 Let me ask you again. It's a simple question.
01:32 Some people can answer it straight away, including pro-Palestinian people I've had on my program.
01:36 Many are very quick to say absolutely.
01:38 Do you believe Hamas are a terror organization?
01:41 And that's a very interesting question, but I think you're peddling assininities.
01:44 Well, just answer the question.
01:45 Can somebody do me a favor? Google assininities and find out if it's a word.
01:48 I know what it means.
01:48 If it's not, make sure it's added to Webster on TopG's orders.
01:52 Okay. Just are they a terror group?
01:53 You're peddling assininities because I'll tell you why, Pierce. Let me answer the question.
01:56 No, I'm not.
01:56 Of course you are.
01:57 It's a simple question.
01:58 That's like me asking you.
01:59 I'll tell you why I ask, because the UK, where you were born, prescribes Hamas as a terror organization.
02:03 They also prescribe me as dangerous to children in schools.
02:06 Let me explain something to you, Pierce.
02:07 You're not prescribed as that.
02:08 If I were to sit here and say, "Is stealing wrong?"
02:11 And you'd say yes, and I'd go, "Ah, but what if the person stealing is trying to feed their family,
02:15 and if they don't, their family are going to die. Is it still wrong?"
02:18 You're trying to take a very nuanced and complicated argument and reduce it down to one sentence.
02:23 No, I'm not.
02:23 Which is failure.
02:24 You're trying to equate stealing with a mob of terrorists breaking over a border, going to peaceful--
02:31 Is that what Israel did?
02:32 Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me finish.
02:34 And killing people. Is that what Israel did?
02:36 Going through a border on October the 7th.
02:38 Oh, October the 7th. I get it. Sorry.
02:40 Massacring young people at a festival, massacring families in their homes in a kibbutz,
02:45 setting fire to them, cutting their heads off, killing babies.
02:48 Oh, killing 40 babies. That was true.
02:50 Well, fine.
02:51 Were the babies vaccinated?
02:52 Why are you being flippant?
02:53 I'm not being flippant. The point I am making--
02:55 I don't find that funny.
02:55 No, but the point I am making is that the media lies, firstly.
02:58 Secondly--
02:59 I can ask you about different things at the same time, right?
03:03 So I'm asking you, first of all, specifically, what is your reaction to what happened on October the 7th?
03:08 Sure. I'll answer the question professionally.
03:11 I do not condone the loss of human life on either side.
03:14 I think anybody doing anything which directly damages civilians is disgusting and abhorrent.
03:20 However, I would be an amateur if I could not sit and pretend I do not understand the motivations behind either side.
03:27 This is not even me taking a side.
03:29 I understand why Israel is doing what it's doing.
03:31 I understand why Palestine is doing what it's doing.
03:33 However, I still call the Israeli actions absolutely abhorrent and genocidal.
03:37 OK, we're going to come to Israel's actions, I promise you.
03:39 We will ask that question specifically.
03:41 But in terms of what Hamas did on October the 7th, do you accept that was an act of terrorism?
03:47 It's an interesting question because--
03:49 It's not really.
03:49 It is. It's a very straightforward question.
03:51 Because you're the person who would have called Nelson Mandela a terrorist while he was still in jail.
03:54 And one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.
03:56 I wouldn't have thought of that.
03:57 For me to answer the question-- Yes, you would have.
03:58 For me to answer the question, I have to be very professional, Piers.
04:01 For me to sit on the outside in Romania with no personal involvement in Israel-Palestine, it's easy for me to say, yes, it was an act of terror.
04:09 However, if I was in Gaza, if I was in an open-air prison, if my family had been annihilated by bombs from the sky,
04:16 if everybody I knew had suffered the loss of a loved one, if I had no chance of any kind of freedom or democracy or standard of life,
04:23 would I believe it was an act of terror or would I believe it's an act of resistance against oppression?
04:27 You have to be very careful how you answer these questions.
04:29 So what do you think?
04:30 I think I understand what happens when you take people and put them in such an inhumane condition.
04:36 For anybody to sit and say that you're going to take people and put them in absolutely inhumane conditions and give them no standard of life
04:43 and they're not allowed to ever fight back or they are terrorists.
04:46 Anyone who does that is an amateur.
04:48 I can agree with you that the plight of the Palestinians for many decades has been absolutely shameful.
04:54 So what did we think was going to happen, Piers?
04:56 Nothing justifies what happened on October the 7th.
04:59 So what are they supposed to do?
04:59 Nothing.
05:00 So what are they supposed to do?
05:01 That was an act of medieval barbaric terrorism. Nothing justifies it.
05:04 Did they suffer acts of medieval barbaric terrorism before that date?
05:12 Yes, and it's unfortunately an eye for an eye in this world.
05:15 I'm not condoning. I'm being a professional and answering to you why it happened.
05:19 Give me one example of where Israel, without any provocation, went into...
05:24 No, wait, a specific question.
05:26 Went into Gaza and massacred 1,500 innocent people, cutting their heads off,
05:31 taping and boasting about what they'd done back to their families in Israel,
05:35 kidnapping Holocaust survivors, bringing...
05:37 They wouldn't, of course, have done that in their case.
05:39 Kidnapping old grandmothers and bringing them back to Israel.
05:42 Kidnapping babies, kidnapping children.
05:44 When has Israel actually gone in and done something of the scale of October the 7th?
05:49 There's literally endless examples of that.
05:50 Give me one.
05:51 In 2014, they were bombing civilians.
05:52 Give me... No, no.
05:53 You know what, Piers, let me tell you something.
05:54 I'm not talking about...
05:55 No, no, no, no, no, no.
05:56 I'm not talking about what they would categorize as retaliation for rocket strikes.
05:59 And there's an arguable point, as there is, for example,
06:02 I'm vehemently against the expansion of the settlements on the West Bank.
06:06 I think there are legitimate questions about the proportionality of Israel's response here.
06:09 Yeah, legitimate questions.
06:10 But in terms of what Hamas perpetrated on October the 7th,
06:13 there is no, no, no instance of Israel doing that to the people of Gaza.
06:19 The real... First...
06:20 And you have to accept that.
06:21 If you don't accept that, you're either deluded
06:23 or you're deliberately not wanting to say the obvious,
06:26 which is that was an act of terrorism,
06:28 because you're concerned about upsetting people in Palestine.
06:31 Is that the case?
06:32 Let me go back to my first point when I said you're peddling assininities.
06:35 The reason I said that is because to look at a situation,
06:38 no matter how heinous, and to ignore all of the context
06:41 and pretend that you do not understand why said situation happened is...
06:46 Nothing justifies terrorism on that scale.
06:48 Nothing.
06:49 Is assinine.
06:50 No, it's not.
06:50 It is.
06:51 Because it's not about justification, Peter.
06:52 Let me tell you why.
06:53 It's not about justification.
06:54 Let me tell you...
06:54 It's about understanding the realities of the world.
06:56 Let me tell you the realities of the world.
06:57 Hamas came to power in 2005.
07:00 Hamas's initial founding charter made it clear that they are for the eradication of Israel.
07:06 And on October the 7th, they proved what that means,
07:08 is they will kill every Jew they can get their hands on.
07:11 They are an existential threat to people in Israel and to Jewish people.
07:16 And that is, I'm afraid, the purest personification of a terror group.
07:19 I also think by doing what they did, as they have done since 2005,
07:24 they weren't representing innocent Palestinian people in Gaza.
07:27 More suffering now.
07:28 They knew, yes, but Hamas knew when they did what they did,
07:32 that Israel would respond the way they did,
07:34 and that thousands of innocent Palestinians would get killed.
07:36 They knew that, and they still did it.
07:38 So my question for you is, why can't you, which is my position on this,
07:42 is very straightforward.
07:43 What Hamas did was an act of terror.
07:46 An absolutely despicable act of terror, and should be called exactly what it is.
07:49 And they are now demonstrably a terrorist group.
07:52 That is why they were rightly prescribed that by the UK and America and other countries.
07:57 And to try and pretend they're not makes you sound like Jeremy Corbyn.
08:00 I can't think of a worse insult to throw at you, right?
08:02 I don't think me and Corbyn agree on that.
08:04 But I also think there are legitimate questions to come about the way Israel's responded.
08:08 We can come to that.
08:08 But I just want to ask you one more time.
08:11 Is what Hamas did on October 7th an act of terrorism?
08:14 I think, Piers, it is peddling assinities for you to pretend that enslaving people...
08:20 So you sound like Jeremy Corbyn now?
08:21 No, let me answer the question.
08:22 15 times he refused to answer the question.
08:24 Let me answer the question.
08:25 You're now up to about...
08:26 I'm not refusing.
08:26 You're now about three or four.
08:28 If you lie...
08:28 Are they a terror group or not?
08:30 They're one team's freedom fighter and they're deemed a terrorist group.
08:33 What do you think?
08:34 I think that if you lock people in an open-air prison and steal their land, they're going to retaliate.
08:37 So they're not a terror group?
08:38 I think they're going to retaliate.
08:39 They're not a terror group?
08:40 One team's terrorists is a new team's freedom fighter.
08:42 We're now up to about eight.
08:43 Are they a terror group?
08:44 And also, another thing I want to make clear to you, Piers...
08:45 Only Jeremy Corbyn has done this.
08:47 Done what?
08:48 Refused to answer the question.
08:50 I think that what they are doing is seemingly deemed an act of terror by the people that the terror...
08:55 Don't use weasely words.
08:56 They're not weasely.
08:57 Of course the Israelis think they're a terror group.
08:59 And of course the Palestinians think they're freedom fighters.
09:01 It's stupid that you're asking the question.
09:03 Most of the civilized world thinks they're a terror group who committed an act of terrorism.
09:06 It's not difficult.
09:07 What they did was an act of terrorism.
09:08 I think that if Israel continues to conduct acts of terrorism on the Palestinian people,
09:14 they're going to do nothing but strengthen the reaction.
09:16 That's a different conversation I'm about to have with you about Israel's response.
09:20 But before I get there, one more time, is Hamas a terror group who committed an act of terrorism?
09:26 I think that when you lock people in an open-air prison, you're going to have to expect a retaliation.
09:30 No, because I have to...
09:31 There's people who are, firstly, first things I want to say, Peter.
09:33 If you don't mind me saying, I think it's spineless.
09:35 Sure.
09:36 I do.
09:36 That's fine.
09:37 You sound like Jeremy Corbyn.
09:38 Well, that is an insult.
09:39 Did you see my interview with him?
09:40 No.
09:41 Right. 15 times last week, I asked him the same question.
09:44 15 times he prevaricated and wouldn't answer.
09:47 Eventually, when someone does that enough times, you know what they really think.
09:51 Okay.
09:51 You don't think they're a terror group.
09:52 Let me answer without being interrupted.
09:54 No, what I think is this.
09:55 On certain scenarios...
09:56 Because I'd be really curious what you think an act of terror is if it's not massacring 1,500 innocent people.
10:02 It's not that.
10:02 Including Holocaust survivors.
10:04 Pierce.
10:05 Kidnapping babies.
10:05 Pierce.
10:06 Decapitating people.
10:07 Pierce.
10:07 Cutting their limbs off.
10:08 Pierce.
10:09 Raping women.
10:09 Yeah, talk about missing limbs.
10:10 We're going to talk about that when we talk about what we've done.
10:12 We are.
10:12 But when we get there, it'll be in the context of you not admitting that was an act of terror.
10:17 Well, let me answer the question for the final time.
10:19 I am a realist.
10:21 And as a realist, sometimes you do not come to the conclusion of labelling good guys and bad guys.
10:25 The world is not black and white.
10:26 Hamas are bad guys.
10:27 No, the world is not black and white.
10:29 The world is actually very grey.
10:30 Anybody who sits and thinks there's clearly a good guy...
10:33 There's nothing grey about what Hamas is.
10:34 There's clearly a good guy and clearly a bad guy does not understand how the world works.
10:37 And as a realist, what you do is you look at scenarios and you understand why they happen, how unfortunate they are,
10:43 how unfortunate the loss of human life is, how civilians die on both sides,
10:47 how innocents are dying in a chess game played by the elites on both sides.
10:51 Both sides, you have innocent people who didn't even vote for the person making the decisions,
10:54 who are insuring their death, signing their death warrants.
10:57 It's unfortunate on both sides.
10:58 But listen, sir, you would not advocate Russia doing any of the things to Ukraine that Israel is doing to Palestine.
11:08 You would not sit here...
11:09 Sorry, Russia has been doing exactly that.
11:11 Russia has not done a fraction of the things to Ukraine that Israel has done to Palestine.
11:16 Russia illegally invaded a sovereign democratic country and has committed a barbaric rampage,
11:22 trying to seize as much of Ukraine as it can, bombing maternity hospitals, killing innocent women and children.
11:29 Don't even try and have some kind of equivocation of this.
11:33 I will. A tiny Hamas rocket that can make a pothole in the road and then they get hit back with cruise missiles.
11:39 Let me ask you a question. Ukraine sent a drone and it hit the Kremlin.
11:42 A drone attack. It did nothing. It damaged some shingles.
11:45 If Russia decided to then respond with a missile attack on a hospital and annihilate 800 people,
11:52 do you think that would be allowed?
11:54 Would you advocate for that? Would you support that reaction?
11:57 Have you seen the state of Mariupol? Have they leveled to the ground?
12:00 The Ukrainians did level it, correct?
12:02 No, the Russians did.
12:03 2014.
12:04 The Russians leveled Mariupol.
12:06 And my question to you is, would you advocate those reactions?
12:09 Let me ask you another question, Piers. This is a genuine question.
12:11 Let me ask you a question because I want to understand your point of view.
12:13 Yeah, but you tried to understand mine. I just want to understand your point of view.
12:16 If I believed, or if Israel believed, that one of the people in your house was a terrorist
12:23 and decided to destroy your entire house and kill your entire family,
12:27 would you sit and say, "Well, maybe there was a terrorist inside. I accept that."
12:32 Or would you be enraged? Genuine question.
12:34 I don't think you can take an individual person's response.
12:37 Well, it's a bunch of individual people in Gaza.
12:39 They're people, individuals with thoughts and dreams and aspirations which are being annihilated.
12:44 15-year-old girls without legs because of cruise missiles.
12:46 They are individual people. They're not cattle, Piers. They're people.
12:50 Right, and so were the people in Israel on October the 7th.
12:52 And that's why it's so heinous, which is my exact point.
12:54 But not heinous enough to reach your bar of terrorism.
12:57 It's not about reaching the bar of terrorism. It's understanding why things happen.
13:00 By not saying it, you've made your position clear, just as Jeremy Corbyn did.
13:05 And to pretend you're any different is ridiculous.
13:07 Let's move on to Israel's response because there are legitimate questions about this.
13:11 Hamas embeds itself, 35,000, 40,000 terrorists in my estimation.
13:15 You can call them whatever you like.
13:17 And they're embedded amongst the civilian population predominantly in northern Gaza.
13:21 We know from intelligence over the last 20 years, which you won't believe because the Matrix has made it all up.
13:27 We know from intelligence that historically Hamas likes to embed itself,
13:31 particularly around things like schools and hospitals and mosques
13:34 because that makes it more difficult if the Israelis attack.
13:38 Now, Israel has killed nearly 12,000 people in its response, right?
13:43 There are many people around the world demanding a ceasefire
13:46 who think that is a ridiculously disproportionate response to what happened.
13:50 Genocide.
13:51 Well, if it was genocide, they would want to kill everyone in Palestine. They don't.
13:54 They just want to drive them all out.
13:55 Whereas Hamas do want to kill every Jew. That is actually what genocide is.
13:59 You know what's actually interesting?
14:00 Because you've spoken about this subject with people more who actually understand the conflict better than I do.
14:05 Mohammed Hijab understands it better. Loki understands it better.
14:08 I'm talking from a very general humanistic perspective
14:10 because I don't understand the absolute intricacies like they do.
14:13 Do you know what genocide means?
14:14 Of course I do.
14:15 Genocide means you want to eradicate an entire people based on race or ethnicity.
14:20 Israel clearly doesn't want to do that to the Palestinian people.
14:23 Clearly not.
14:24 If he did, he wouldn't tell a million of them, as it turned out, who moved south.
14:28 There are arguments about whether...
14:29 To attack them as they moved.
14:30 Well, some people got hit as they moved.
14:32 Oh, some people got hit. Some people got hit.
14:34 You know what, Andrew?
14:35 You know what happens?
14:36 You know what, Andrew?
14:37 Wait till it's your son's turn.
14:38 You know what, I agree.
14:39 And you know what, Andrew? War is horrific. It's horrific.
14:43 The question is, is it a just war for Israel to go after Hamas?
14:47 And if it is, and you believe as I do, that Hamas has to be got rid of, how do you do that?
14:52 If you don't do it the way Israel is doing it, how do you get rid of that terror group?
14:57 Now, you won't agree with anything they're doing because you can't even categorise them as a terror group.
15:02 No, the reason I won't agree with them is because I'm a human, Piers.
15:05 And please let me answer this without being interrupted.
15:07 You didn't answer my earlier question for a reason, because you knew that you couldn't answer it without proving my point.
15:11 Which question?
15:12 The question about the fact that if they decided to cruise missile your house because they thought somebody inside was a terrorist,
15:15 you would not accept the loss of your family that you have raised.
15:17 You would not accept that.
15:18 Of course I wouldn't.
15:19 Okay, absolutely. So, let me answer this as a professional.
15:21 What's funny is, I'm a humanist.
15:23 A professional what, by the way?
15:25 A professional. The professional.
15:27 What does that mean?
15:28 Let me answer. Let me answer.
15:29 What are you? What are you speaking? You say you're speaking professionally.
15:31 I'm a professional. And I'm talking about this from a humanistic perspective, right?
15:33 And like I said, you've talked to people more knowledgeable than me on the details of the subject.
15:38 Listen to me very carefully.
15:39 I thought we lived in a democratic society.
15:41 You just said 35,000 Hamas terrorists.
15:43 And this is the thing that's most upsetting to me.
15:44 This is what genuinely upsets me.
15:45 Israel intelligence will say a guy's a Hamas terrorist.
15:48 Has that guy gone to a court of law?
15:49 Has there been a democratic process?
15:51 Has he been proven to be a terrorist?
15:53 No. They've just decided from their intelligence that couldn't see an invasion coming from hundreds of miles away.
15:59 So, this intelligence is not great.
16:02 So, they've decided this person might be an intelligence without court case, without any kind of democratic process.
16:07 And because of that, they've decided to annihilate civilians along with him.
16:11 And it's all just collateral damage and nobody should care.
16:14 That is not a humanistic perspective.
16:15 And that is disgusting.
16:17 And any person in the West who is advocating for that is a hypocrite.
16:20 If it was turned on them, if the American government said,
16:24 "We think the person in your shopping mall, one of the people you were shopping alongside in the mall,
16:29 might have committed a crime. We didn't take him to court.
16:32 We think they might have. So, we killed your whole family. Get over it."
16:36 He's a clown and a hypocrite.
16:38 So, the last time...
16:39 What do you expect full-grown men to do?
16:41 I'm about to respond.
16:42 What do you expect full-grown men to do when you kill all of their families and leave them locked in an open-air prison?
16:46 Let me respond.
16:47 The last time that Jewish people faced an existential threat was in World War II.
16:52 And the Nazis, who wanted to take over the world and kill every Jewish person,
16:58 the Nazis were ultimately defeated by Winston Churchill leading the Allies.
17:02 And Winston Churchill, in the process of defeating the Nazis,
17:06 killed a lot of German innocent civilians in the process.
17:09 Do you think that was justified?
17:11 Let me ask a question.
17:12 I ask the questions. Was it justified?
17:15 I believe... And let me just get this right in my head.
17:18 Yeah, think about it.
17:19 No, I don't need to think about your question.
17:21 I believe that the Nazis, which were obviously heinous,
17:25 I'm not advocating anything to do with them, it's disgusting, the Nazis.
17:28 I'm glad we beat them. I'm actually a huge fan.
17:30 Were they terrorists?
17:31 Yeah, they were.
17:32 Right.
17:33 So, I believe that they...
17:34 So, when you massacre Jewish people, you're terrorists?
17:36 Except when you do it in Israel.
17:37 When you try and conduct genocide on a populace because you don't want them on land you say is yours,
17:43 then you are terrorists.
17:44 That's exactly what Hamas did on October the 7th.
17:46 That's what Israel had did before that.
17:48 So, you've literally just described what Hamas do.
17:51 You just described what Israel do.
17:53 They're trying to genocide the Palestinians as we speak.
17:55 And this is the exact point.
17:56 So, Israel...
17:57 No, but the city...
17:58 So, you think Israel are terrorists?
17:59 I think that what they're doing now is disproportionate and genocidal.
18:02 Is it terrorism?
18:03 It's genocidal, so I guess that makes it terrorism.
18:04 Right, so they're terrorists for responding to an act of terror,
18:07 but the people who committed the act of terror are not terrorists.
18:09 The way in which they're responding is disproportionate.
18:10 You see the problem with that argument?
18:11 No.
18:12 Really?
18:13 Really.
18:14 Because the way...
18:15 Pierce, what they are doing now...
18:16 Slaughtering 1,500 people in the way they did it is not an act of terror by terrorists,
18:19 but a response from the people on the receiving end,
18:22 rather like the response of the allies in World War II to what the Nazis did.
18:26 Didn't you say 12,000 people?
18:27 That apparently is the only act of terrorism.
18:28 Didn't you say 12,000 people the Israelis have killed thus far?
18:30 Yes.
18:31 I saw a video of a 15-year-old girl with no legs begging to die.
18:34 Yeah.
18:35 She was begging to die saying, "I have no future because my parents are gone
18:37 or my legs are gone.
18:38 I have no future."
18:39 It's horrific.
18:40 No, but you say that, right?
18:41 You say that in numbers and statistics, and you say a few people got caught.
18:44 You don't think of Gazans and you don't think of Muslims and Palestinians as individual people.
18:48 Oh, yes, I do.
18:49 No, you don't.
18:50 Oh, I do.
18:51 If you did, you would not be happy with what's happening here.
18:52 Don't you dare say that about me.
18:53 Okay, but don't put them together in numbers.
18:55 No, no, no.
18:56 They're not numbers.
18:57 They're people.
18:58 I've spoken for many years about the plight of the Palestinian people.
19:00 I think it's outrageous that Israel has any control over their ability to function with water,
19:05 with fuel, with other energy, and so on, and food.
19:09 That's interesting.
19:10 If you were in Gaza as a Gazan male, a masculine fighting age,
19:15 and you believed the things you currently believe, what would you do about it?
19:19 I'm just asking.
19:20 You know what?
19:21 Nothing justifies the terrorism we saw in October 7th.
19:23 I never said you'd be a terrorist.
19:24 I'm asking what you'd do.
19:25 No, no.
19:26 I understand why people in Palestine feel oppressed.
19:28 I understand why they want freedom.
19:30 I understand why they want the same rights as the people in Israel.
19:33 Then, here's a perfect example.
19:34 On that we agree.
19:35 Absolutely, we agree.
19:36 But nothing, nothing justifies what happened on October 7th.
19:39 Well, here's where we disagree, Piers, because as a professional,
19:42 when we both agree on the point that the people inside of Gaza are being oppressed,
19:45 and that their life is being detrimented, and that they have no way of getting out,
19:48 we, as a professional, I understand pressure cookers explode.
19:53 You're pretending they shouldn't.
19:54 You're saying that they should never explode.
19:56 Nothing bad should ever happen.
19:57 You're saying nothing justifies terrorism.
19:58 We should just be allowed to subjugate them for endless years, and nothing happens.
20:02 And I'm a realist who understands that pressure cookers explode, and that's what happens.
20:06 We need a solution to the problem, or it will continue to happen.
20:08 You're not a realist because actually you are not accepting that what they did on October 7th
20:13 was an act of terrorism by terrorists.
20:15 You won't accept that.
20:16 You think actually they're freedom fighters doing some kind of resistance,
20:19 and I say that is ridiculous and shameful.
20:22 That's the difference between us.
20:23 I understand that pressure cookers explode, Piers.
20:25 Right. So you think it's perfectly reasonable. What happened there?
20:27 I don't think it's reasonable. I think it's a shame.
20:30 Natural consequence.
20:31 I think it's a shame.
20:32 A shame. That's it?
20:34 I think it's a shame that we're living in the world now where people are reduced to basically suicide
20:39 to try and fight for freedom for their families if they have one left,
20:43 because they all committed suicide, those men who did that.
20:45 They didn't have a chance of survival.
20:47 That's because they believe that they're marching themselves and getting into a better life.
20:51 No, it's because when you oppress people to the point where their family's dead and they have nothing to live for.
20:54 I think that's a shame.
20:55 So do you support Islamic fundamentalism?
20:57 Absolutely not.
20:59 Do you support an Islamist ideology?
21:01 Absolutely not.
21:02 Right.
21:03 But I support...
21:04 So why do you support Hamas?
21:05 I support justice in the universe.
21:06 You support Hamas?
21:07 I support justice in the universe, Piers.
21:08 You support Hamas?
21:09 No.
21:10 You don't?
21:11 Well, I don't know the ins and outs of Hamas' creed. I have to be very honest.
21:13 Well, you know what they did in October the 7th. Do you support them?
21:15 I understand why that happened. And I'm saying it's a shame.
21:17 But you won't denounce them?
21:18 I say it's a shame.
21:19 Will you condemn them?
21:20 I can't sit here and condemn the obvious outcome of consequence.
21:24 Wow. Really?
21:25 How can I condemn...
21:26 You can't condemn Hamas for what they did?
21:28 Well, we know what's going to happen. And we need a solution.
21:31 You're very quick to condemn Israel's response. But you won't condemn the terror attack which prompted it?
21:35 No. I'll tell you why.
21:36 Even though Hamas knew by doing what they were doing, that would be the response?
21:40 Do you think they knew that?
21:41 Of course they knew that.
21:42 You think they knew the Israelis...
21:43 They did it quite deliberately. You know why? Because they were funded and supported by Iran.
21:48 They didn't like the fact that Israel was normalising relations with a bunch of Arab countries.
21:52 From the UAE to Bahrain to Morocco. And then coming down the line was going to be Saudi Arabia.
21:57 That was a threat to the Iran view of what should be happening in that region.
22:02 Iran are the ones who support and fund and arm Hamas.
22:05 And they clearly, in my estimation, although it hasn't been properly established yet,
22:10 but clearly Hamas couldn't have done this on their own.
22:12 They've done it with support from Iran.
22:14 And they've gone and committed an act of such heinous atrocity that they knew what the response would be.
22:19 And that means that they sentenced in that moment not just 1,500 people in Israel to death,
22:24 in the most appalling manner possible, but they also sentenced to death thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians,
22:31 including many innocent children, because half the population are children.
22:34 And Hamas knew that was what was going to happen.
22:36 So my question is, how can anyone think that Hamas is a force for good for the Palestinian people?
22:42 I didn't say they're a force for good.
22:43 They are a force for evil.
22:44 I said they're unfortunate. No, I didn't say they're a force for good.
22:46 I said it's a pressure cooker and it's a shame.
22:47 But you won't even condemn them.
22:48 Let me ask the question.
22:49 Do you think if we gave the Palestinian people basic human rights that Hamas would find it more difficult to recruit new soldiers?
22:55 Yeah, I think probably.
22:58 Probably if we treat them like humans, this won't happen.
23:01 So we agree and let's move on.
23:03 I think there's a real danger in the scale of Israel's response that you radicalize a whole new generation of Palestinians.
23:09 I think that's a real danger.
23:10 By the way, I've said that. We can agree on that.
23:13 So perhaps it was Israel's actions before October 7th that radicalized the soldiers who invaded.
23:17 So you agree with me. So let's move on.
23:18 No, I don't.
23:19 No, nothing justifies what they did.
23:22 Let me ask you about the reaction that you've had from certain people who I think at one stage you had a good relationship with.
23:30 One is Jordan Peterson and the other one Ben Shapiro.
23:34 Let's talk about Jordan first.
23:36 You've had a bit of a to and fro with him.
23:39 What is your view of him?
23:40 I think Jordan and I actually agree on many issues.
23:43 I think the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
23:45 We have a lot more in common than we have that we disagree on.
23:48 We have different views of the world on certain things.
23:51 I think we approach him from different places.
23:52 He's far more in his mind, whereas I've been more in a physical realm than he does.
23:56 I have nothing against Jordan.
23:58 I don't dislike him.
23:59 I do find it, and I must be honest, a bit disingenuous and hypocritical that he speaks mental strength and then ends up addicted to an antidepressant.
24:06 I don't think he should ever take antidepressants ever.
24:08 I've been through worse than what he's been through and I didn't take a single drug.
24:11 However, I have nothing against the guy.
24:13 He says very intelligent things and I'd be interested to argue with him or discuss or debate with him,
24:17 but I think we'd actually agree on most points, to be honest with you.
24:19 I mean, he may be unhappy with somehow how I've lived my life and some things I've done,
24:24 but we've already discussed the fact that I come from the lowest income area of the U.K.
24:27 and most people around me were selling drugs, so at least I didn't do that.
24:30 So I'm not going to allow somebody who's a professor at a university who's had an easy life come along and tell me how people from the streets should survive.
24:37 You have to find a way out.
24:38 Let's get rich if I try.
24:39 But I have nothing against the guy.
24:41 I just think that he's been a bit hypocritical and then, truthfully,
24:45 the only time I've been genuinely a bit appalled by any of his actions was the tweet he made on Israel-Palestine when he said, "Give them hell."
24:52 I know that's an easy thing to say and it's an expression that people use and they throw it around flippantly,
24:57 but I think when you actually wish hell upon other human beings, I think it's a disgusting thing to do
25:04 because hell is that 15-year-old girl with no legs and her parents were dead.
25:07 When you see her crying her eyes out, begging to die, that is hell.
25:11 And I don't think you should genuinely wish hell on anyone, Israel or Palestinian, either, anyone.
25:16 I'm a humanist. I don't want anybody to die.
25:18 And when he was wishing hell on an entire population--
25:21 He did express regret for the way he phrased that tweet.
25:23 And he should because it's disgusting.
25:24 I've not wished hell on the Israelis.
25:26 I've not wished hell on the Israeli state.
25:28 I don't want any Israeli civilian to go through with that 15-year-old Palestinian girl's going through, not a single one.
25:33 He said about you, Jordan Peterson, I'm not particularly happy to be grouped with Andrew Tate.
25:36 I think there are some elements about what he does that are quite reprehensible.
25:40 I'm sure he has. I don't know everything he says, and he may disagree with some of my points of view.
25:45 As I said, I have nothing against him. I don't think anything he says is particularly wrong.
25:50 I think that he's hypocritical because of the antidepressant problem,
25:53 and I think that the fact he wishes hell on other humans because he gets emotionally involved in a conflict,
25:59 which within two minutes of it sparking off, he's wishing genocide, I think that says a lot about his personality.
26:04 Overall, when he speaks at length, a lot of the things he says are pretty well thought through and pretty constructive.
26:09 I have nothing against the guy.
26:10 Let me turn to Ben Shapiro. He said, let me assure you, as someone who's not pimped women and bragged about it,
26:14 that morality requires that those who rape women and kidnap women must be eradicated, not negotiated with.
26:20 He says, on my show, I won't be lectured on morality and toughness by Andrew Tate,
26:25 his great idea of toughness and morality is pimping women and bragging about it on air,
26:29 and then trying to quasi-walk it back while simultaneously maintaining many of the same positions and flexing his biceps.
26:36 Listen, everyone should be able to tweet whatever it is they want,
26:38 and more for an open discourse, even with people who I think are dead wrong on a lot of issues.
26:42 But Andrew Tate is dead wrong on a lot of these issues, and the particularly ridiculous posturing about being a,
26:48 yes, you're very tough when you want people to make peace with terrorists who just murdered their children, very, very tough.
26:53 What do you say to that?
26:55 Ben is a warmonger. Ben has been wrong on basically every single issue you can name.
26:59 He was with you with the vaccine and every other war.
27:02 Ben is always calling for other people's young men to go and die in some war. He seems to love it.
27:06 I don't know if he has short man syndrome, but he's always behind his desk calling about how important it is that big, strong men like me go and die.
27:12 And the reason he tweeted that and said that is because when Hamas and Israel, very early in the conflict,
27:16 I think it was three days in, were discussing possible peace talks, he tweeted, no, absolutely not, f**k them, kill them all.
27:23 And I said, Ben, as a man who's done his own fighting, because I've had a life of pain and violence, listen to me.
27:29 Peace is always worth a conversation.
27:31 What I said is that we should always be prepared to at least discuss peace.
27:36 He, because he's a warmonger, said, no, peace is not worth a conversation.
27:40 You're this, you're that, da-da, because he's always sitting behind his desk.
27:43 He must have a booster chair, and he's always running his mouth trying to invoke violence and call for war.
27:48 And I find it kind of hypocritical because a man who's so small, he would die if he was slapped on the street.
27:53 Sitting behind a desk and screaming for other people to be annihilated, I think is kind of, it's worse than hypocritical.
27:59 I actually think, I believe, I believe if he was sitting here listening to this, he would say that what he's screaming for is for Jewish people in Israel to defend themselves.
28:09 All Ben does is call for war. And I agree. Defending yourself.
28:14 That's all he does.
28:15 That's all he does. And calling for war, and defending yourself is very different than genocide.
28:19 And Ben, like I said, overall, most of Ben's world views, and mine, probably align.
28:25 We don't align on the religious sect, we don't rely on the religious points, fine.
28:29 But our overall world views about how society should function probably align on many of the key issues.
28:34 I don't have a beef with Ben, and I don't watch his show, and I have no idea what he talks about a lot of the time.
28:39 But what I do know is every time I turn it on, he's calling for someone else's son to go and die in a ditch somewhere for his interests.
28:45 And I don't like people who are not advocates for peace.
28:47 "Blessed are the peacemakers," said Candace, who is far more intelligent than Ben will ever be.
28:51 And she is completely right.
28:53 He replied that rhetoric, starting an argument with me, when I said we should talk about peace.
28:59 I say we should talk about peace.
29:00 He calls for the death of civilians, and somehow we're asking why my point of view is seen as abstract.
29:06 It's insane.
29:07 Why can't we all just sit down and say the fighting must end?
29:10 Why can't we do that?
29:11 Why can't we sit and say, "Nobody should be dying.
29:14 Let's stop using the most advanced military weaponry on the planet to blow the limbs off children."
29:19 Why can't we say that without being deemed some kind of terrorist sympathizer or anti-Semite?
29:24 It's insanity.
29:25 Trump came along and didn't start a single war.
29:27 He's the only one who didn't, and they're going to come along and make him a bad guy when a new president comes in.
29:32 It's just endless war and death and killing.
29:34 Have you seen a dead body, Piers?
29:35 Have you seen people lose a f------g limb?
29:37 It's disgusting.
29:38 I know what's happening over there.
29:39 Have you seen that?
29:40 I don't need to tell you about the parts of my history that I'm not prepared to share, Piers.
29:44 You've seen people--
29:45 I said it to Ben.
29:46 I said people who have done their own fighting and seen their own violence and have seen people bleed out in the street from a stab wound
29:51 are not going to be so smart and so quick to sit behind a desk and call for the death of innocent people.
29:56 It's disgusting what's happening.
29:58 I don't want anyone to die on either side.
30:00 And when I come along as a peacemaker and say this is insane, because he's a warmonger, because he has chosen blinkers
30:08 and sees one side of the argument and refuses to accept the humanity of Palestinians, he says I'm a bad person for calling for peace?
30:16 Well, you know why?
30:17 Because he'll probably listen to this interview and say this guy can't even describe Hamas as terrorists.
30:22 If Ben Shapiro thinks badly--
30:24 And if you don't think what happened to the people in Israel on October 7th is an act of terrorism--
30:28 Did I not just say--
30:29 Then you are--
30:30 I want all people to stop dying.
30:31 Then you are just as partisan to one side as you believe Ben Shapiro is to the other.
30:35 Did I not just say I want all people to stop dying?
30:38 Piers, don't interrupt this.
30:39 It's two sentences.
30:40 I want all people to stop dying.
30:42 However, I understand what is going to happen when you create a pressure cooker.
30:46 That is my answer, and it's extremely professional.
30:49 I don't want anyone to die, and because I don't want anyone to die, because I'm a peacemaker, because I'm a humanist,
30:54 I understand you cannot lock people in an open-air prison for an undetermined period of time without provoking terrorism.
31:00 So out of interest, what would you have done if you'd been Israel after October 7th?
31:04 That's a really interesting question, and I think there's people who are more qualified than me to answer that.
31:08 Given that Hamas last week said, "We're going to try and do the same thing again and again and again,"
31:13 what would you do to defend the people of Israel?
31:15 Good question.
31:16 They have the Iron Dome, which is largely effective.
31:19 I think that their border security is usually effective.
31:22 It's very interesting that it wasn't on the day.
31:24 So you would say they would do nothing other than tighten up security?
31:27 I think if I was truthfully—I'll answer the question.
31:29 If I was truthfully in charge of Israel, I would have found out how our border was penetrated.
31:32 I would have made sure that was impossible to do.
31:34 I would have had large conversations and discourse during that period,
31:38 which would probably take weeks to ensure that my border was impenetrable,
31:40 because we were at no genuine threat of a repeat attack.
31:43 And then I would make it clear that there will be some repercussion unless we can come to peace terms.
31:49 Hamas doesn't want peace.
31:51 Of course not. But I'm saying—
31:52 That's their stated position.
31:53 Of course. Of course.
31:54 So there's not going to be a peace with Hamas.
31:55 If you're asking what I'd do, I would have found out—first things first, I'm a man.
31:58 So first things first, you fix the problem.
32:00 OK, our border's been penetrated.
32:02 How do we make sure that doesn't happen again?
32:03 Sure. Of course.
32:04 How did it happen? Internal investigation.
32:05 Of course.
32:06 Let's make sure the border's secure.
32:07 Now our civilians are safe.
32:08 Our civilians are safe, which buys us time.
32:10 Let's have a conversation to see if we can actually reason with Hamas.
32:12 If we can't, then there might be some military intervention.
32:15 Then what?
32:16 But there certainly wouldn't be bombing hospitals, cruise missile and refugee camps.
32:20 There wouldn't be any of the things that's going on now. Absolutely not.
32:22 You wouldn't try and attack the people that do that?
32:24 No, because this is a rushed and emotional response.
32:26 And that's why I would have prevented—I would have made sure as a man I didn't make a rushed and emotional response.
32:30 So you'd be more like Neville Chamberlain, trying to do peace with the Nazis and Winston Churchill trying to kill them.
32:36 Well, that's an interesting question.
32:39 You're an appeaser, not a warrior.
32:41 Well, I still think I'm a warrior, but I think that when you're a warrior you have to be very capable and—
32:46 Well, that's what Neville Chamberlain's view was. We should do peace with the Nazis.
32:49 You have to be very understanding of your power, and you have to use it responsibly.
32:53 And just like I said earlier, when I'm trying to be responsible about what I say to the young men of the world,
32:57 I would understand as Israel I must be responsible with my massive military might to make sure I don't kill civilians.
33:02 And I would sit and try and make a measured response, and I'd be a professional, and I would consider them human beings,
33:07 and I would secure my border and try and come up with a plan better than, "Oh no, I'm mad. I'm emotional now. Let's go kill everyone."
33:14 I think that's the wrong response. Correct. I don't think that's the right thing to do.
33:18 We've spent a long time talking. You're going to find out at some stage today or in the next few days
33:25 whether you're going to get your possessions back. That'll either happen or not happen.
33:28 But then there's likely to be a trial, and that will determine how you spend the next 10 years of your life,
33:34 almost certainly, which is a sobering thought for anyone.
33:37 When you look back on the whole arc of the last few years, you've expressed some regret because of your turning to Islam,
33:45 your change in your philosophy from a religious perspective.
33:49 You've acknowledged that some of the stuff you used to do was immoral.
33:53 Do you look at the journey you've gone on here and think that in a way, notwithstanding the Matrix and everything else,
34:01 that maybe you yourself could have done things differently to avoid being in this position?
34:06 Absolutely. I'm a man, and I take absolute self-accountability.
34:09 You have to, as a man, your superpower is looking in the mirror and understanding everything that happens to you,
34:14 both good and bad, to a degree is your fault. It could have all been influenced.
34:18 I could have avoided all of this. I could have avoided the Matrix attacks.
34:20 I'm sorry, I could have avoided jail cell, if you don't let me use that term.
34:23 I could have avoided all the negative press. I could have chosen to work at Starbucks and just stayed a nobody.
34:27 I made choices that put me in this position. I take responsibility for them.
34:31 I said things on the Internet in a satirical way on videos that got 110 views when YouTube was brand new
34:35 that I did not expect to become the most viral videos in the world because I didn't expect to become the most famous.
34:38 I didn't expect to become the most famous and known person on the planet. That's all true.
34:42 I'm not saying I have no part to play in any of this. However, I can still say that I'm completely innocent.
34:47 I can still say that it's only my fame and notoriety that has inspired the prosecution service to try and even put me in jail in the first place.
34:53 I can still say that there's some unfair policing in the world, depending on your political views.
34:57 I can still say all of those things while accepting absolute responsibility for the situation I'm in.
35:02 Andrew Tate, thank you very much.
35:03 Thank you, sir.
35:04 [BLANK_AUDIO]