EW Book Club: Rebecca Yarros Unfurls Secrets Behind The Empyrean Series
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00:00 did you name Violet that just so Zayden could call her Violet?
00:04 Yes.
00:05 [LAUGHTER]
00:05 Do it!
00:06 Do it!
00:07 I loved violence.
00:08 And I think the juxtaposition of Violet
00:11 being so sheltered and soft as a flower against violence,
00:15 it was too delicious to put it on.
00:16 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:19 Hi.
00:21 I am so excited to welcome you to the first ever episode
00:25 of EW Book Club, where we are joined
00:28 by the amazing author, Rebecca Yaros, who
00:32 wrote the Empyrean series.
00:34 Most recently, Iron Flame hit shelves,
00:36 and before that, Fourth Wing.
00:38 And I am joined by all the EW girlies
00:41 from all quadrants of the brand, wearing
00:44 Rider Black so that we can get to all of your burning questions
00:49 for the wonderful Miss Rebecca here.
00:51 So let's dig in.
00:53 There's so many moving pieces here.
00:54 It's got a little bit of Hunger Games,
00:56 a little bit of Game of Thrones, maybe
00:58 some how to train your dragon for good measure.
01:01 How and when did you come up with this series?
01:04 So when I knew my publisher was going
01:06 to do a romantic fantasy line, I got really excited,
01:09 and I submitted five ideas.
01:12 And so she went through those and kind of looked
01:14 where there was a hole in the market,
01:15 you know, where there weren't anything.
01:17 And she said, we're going to go with the dragons.
01:20 And it was pitch number three.
01:21 So I had this moment of like, dragons?
01:23 Are you sure?
01:24 Are you sure?
01:25 And I fell in love as I was pitching it and coming up
01:27 with the idea with like a faded mates trope,
01:30 but it was between the dragons and not the humans.
01:33 Because can you imagine being stuck with someone you can't
01:35 stand because your dragons are mated, as opposed to like,
01:38 you know, like you're faded together.
01:40 You put such a new spin on the forced proximity trope.
01:45 I mean, the idea that they can't be away far enough
01:48 because their dragons have to bang every night--
01:50 Right?
01:50 I know.
01:51 --is pristine.
01:52 I know.
01:53 No notes.
01:53 And then he just gets grumpy.
01:55 And then you're stuck with already like curmudgeon Taron,
01:57 and now he's like frustrated curmudgeon Taron.
01:59 Frustrated horny.
02:00 I know.
02:01 And they're like, no, we got to go.
02:02 So it was kind of fun.
02:03 Impeccable.
02:04 Yeah, and I'm curious because you're
02:05 somebody who you built your career in contemporary romance.
02:09 Were you like a big fan of fantasy going into this?
02:11 Did you have like any fantasy books or movies
02:13 that you absolutely like adored before you
02:16 started writing this?
02:17 So fantasy is my first love.
02:18 And my first book that I ever wrote was a fantasy.
02:20 It didn't sell.
02:21 And so I wrote a contemporary romance
02:22 while it was out on submission.
02:24 And that's the one that took off and became my debut.
02:26 So this felt like getting back to my roots
02:28 and going back to what I really love.
02:30 I remember getting up in the morning
02:31 and looking at my husband and being like,
02:33 I get to play with dragons today.
02:35 You know?
02:35 And when it came to this series, was there
02:37 a character in particular that you had the most fun writing?
02:41 Oh, gosh.
02:41 So I love Violet, I think, because she has
02:44 she has Ehlers-Danlos like I do.
02:45 And I had a lot of fun like exploring that.
02:47 But when it came to just enjoying someone on the page,
02:50 Riddick's probably my favorite because he always
02:51 has a snarky line.
02:52 He has a different way of looking at things.
02:54 He has-- you can never--
02:55 like, you can always count on him to kind of bring it in
02:58 and kind of make you laugh, but in a kind of deeper way.
03:02 So Riddick is always my favorite to see on the page.
03:04 It's a comedic relief.
03:05 A little bit, yeah.
03:06 I love Riddick.
03:07 He's so good.
03:08 We're big Riddick girlies.
03:09 He's just so sarcastic.
03:11 Right?
03:11 He's a funny guy.
03:12 Who would you say has been the hardest to kill so far?
03:15 And do you regret anyone that you've killed?
03:18 Would you bring anyone back?
03:19 Is that a double-sided question?
03:20 It's two questions.
03:21 OK, I'm just checking.
03:22 I'm just checking.
03:23 No, no, you're fine.
03:24 So I'm known for, in my contemporaries,
03:27 killing off characters.
03:28 It never bothers me.
03:28 I think death is a part of life.
03:30 And especially, like, my husband spent 22 years
03:32 in the military.
03:33 And I can tell you, when you go to war,
03:34 your friends don't always come home.
03:36 And so it was important to me to kind of keep that realism
03:39 so I don't regret it.
03:41 And I wouldn't bring anyone back that I can think of.
03:44 Because I feel like then it would be too much like--
03:46 you lose your stakes.
03:47 Do you know what I mean?
03:48 So if people who are dead come back,
03:49 you lose the actual stakes of it.
03:51 Because you're like, they'll just bring it.
03:51 They'll just come back.
03:52 I do admire that.
03:53 I feel like a lot of fantasies do this thing where, like,
03:55 you think someone died.
03:56 And then they're there.
03:57 And it almost feels more like fan fiction than reality.
03:59 Right.
03:59 So I agree with you with the stakes.
04:00 So you've got to have, like, a reason, right?
04:02 Or a way.
04:02 Although I was so mad when you killed Liam.
04:04 And I will never forgive you.
04:05 I'm so sorry.
04:06 I'm so sorry.
04:07 I was mad when Liam died.
04:08 I'm sorry.
04:09 I feel like that means she did her job.
04:10 Yeah, exactly.
04:11 Yeah, exactly.
04:12 That we're all mad.
04:13 I'm not convinced he's dead still.
04:15 We'll come back to that later.
04:17 He's a loser in my book.
04:18 We just loved him so much.
04:19 Thank you.
04:19 I'm glad.
04:20 I knew it was going to happen to him the second I wrote him.
04:22 But I'm so sorry, guys.
04:24 I'm sorry.
04:25 I think you've talked about this a little bit.
04:27 But what did you like about writing about specifically,
04:29 like, early adult, like, 20-somethings?
04:32 It's not teen.
04:33 It's not, like, fully adult. You don't have any, you know,
04:36 like, 500-year-old immortal people in this love triangle.
04:40 What was fun about writing for, like, this specific age range?
04:43 So I've written new adult since 2013.
04:46 My new adult, my debut was in 2014.
04:48 And so I've written-- the majority of my backlist
04:50 is new adult.
04:51 And I love it because it's this really messy age between,
04:54 like, 18 and 25, where your frontal lobe isn't developed,
04:56 right?
04:57 And I always imagine it as, like, a freshman girl's bathroom,
05:01 right?
05:02 Like, we're, like, at 2 AM, where someone's drunk
05:04 and someone's puking and holding her hair back.
05:05 And someone's like, don't text your ex.
05:07 You're worth more than that, right?
05:08 Because that age is so messy.
05:11 But the choices we make at that age
05:13 have so much bigger consequences than YA or even adult.
05:17 By the time you're an adult, you're expected, one,
05:19 not make those choices, and two, know how to get yourself out.
05:21 But at this age, you're just floundering.
05:23 You've just left your family for the first time.
05:25 You're on your own.
05:26 And you're just screwing up left and right.
05:29 So it's a fascinating age.
05:30 And plus, my kids--
05:31 I have six kids.
05:32 And three of them are in this age range now.
05:34 And I'm just watching, like, OK, that was a choice.
05:36 And now we're going into the fire burning questions version.
05:39 OK, all right.
05:40 I'm prepping.
05:40 But I'm just saying, for the record,
05:42 that as this interview progresses,
05:44 I will be mispronouncing so much.
05:45 That's fine.
05:46 I do every day.
05:47 What is the actual height difference
05:48 between Zaden and Violet?
05:50 So Zaden's, like, 6'4".
05:51 And Violet's, like, I think she's, like, 5'2".
05:54 5'2"--
05:55 Shout out to 5'2".
05:55 That's what it's like when Jane the Virgin
05:57 and Hailey Spain situation.
05:58 Kind of.
05:59 And I'm 5'5".
06:00 And my husband's 6'4".
06:01 So it's just--
06:03 OK.
06:03 You know, other than a couple inches,
06:04 I just kind of look at where I land, like,
06:06 when I stand next to him.
06:07 Did you name Violet that just so Zaden could call her Violet?
06:12 Yes.
06:13 Do it.
06:15 I loved Violet.
06:16 And I think the juxtaposition of, like, Violet
06:18 being, you know, so sheltered and soft, like, as a flower,
06:21 right, against violence was-- it was too delicious to put none.
06:24 What is the actual sheep population?
06:27 I know.
06:28 The goats.
06:29 It's the goats you have to worry about.
06:31 How do the shepherds feel about the goats?
06:33 I know.
06:34 And you guys have read "Iron Flame," right?
06:36 Yeah.
06:37 Like, poor Brennan.
06:38 Like, no spoiler.
06:39 But, like, that man is trying so hard to, like,
06:41 bring in more goats as all these guys keep arriving.
06:44 They're stressing Arisha to the max, which I kind of love,
06:48 because it's more realistic, right?
06:50 So, yes, you have an influx of people.
06:51 And when she gets there, he's like, what did you do?
06:53 Like, we were not prepared for this.
06:54 And she's like, I brought you riders.
06:56 Like, he said you needed riders.
06:58 Imagine the jobs, though, that opened up for, like, goats
07:00 and sheep farming.
07:00 You're helping the economy, really.
07:02 Yeah, literally.
07:02 It's a big boost to the economy.
07:04 OK, so my burning question involves a scene
07:07 where Rhi in "Iron Flame," she talks about Navarre
07:10 and how when it unified, a lot of other places
07:12 lost their folklore.
07:13 Right.
07:14 Which instantly made me think about Taylor Swift.
07:17 And I'm just wondering, are you a Swifty?
07:18 I'm a huge Swifty.
07:19 OK, OK, perfect.
07:20 I was hoping you were going to say that.
07:22 And just a slight tangent, I'm just
07:24 wondering, you know, of the following characters,
07:27 of Zayden and of Vi and Dane, what albums do you think
07:32 correlate best with their personalities?
07:35 I think we're going to slap debut on Dane.
07:37 I think he's kind of, like, fresh off the box.
07:39 [GROANING]
07:41 I don't know what this means.
07:43 I would definitely say that Zayden's in his, like,
07:46 "Reputation" era.
07:46 Like, "Vi," which I love.
07:48 That's my favorite album.
07:49 And I would probably give, like, "Folklore" to "Violet"
07:53 in the first kind of book, and then probably more,
07:55 like, a "Midnight's"--
07:56 "Midnight's" blended with "Vi" into "Iron Flame" kind of thing.
08:00 OK.
08:01 But yeah, I wrote a ton of the book to "Miss Americana"
08:03 and "The Heartbreak Prince."
08:04 I know, right?
08:05 And then my husband took me to opening weekend.
08:08 And I'd stayed off social media the whole time.
08:10 So I didn't know what the playlist was.
08:12 Right?
08:13 And she opened with it.
08:14 And I thought I would just--
08:15 Did you have the best time?
08:16 That's fate.
08:16 I did.
08:17 I did.
08:18 I think the 10-year-old girls in front of me were like,
08:19 oh, my lord.
08:20 I want to know if Taylor Swift is a fourth wing fan.
08:23 Because I feel like she probably--
08:24 I feel like if she's not, she will be.
08:27 I would cease breathing.
08:28 Do cadets from the other quadrants
08:31 have access to, like, any sort of lesser magic?
08:34 Or are you telling me Yesenia is writing
08:36 everything with Aquiline ink?
08:38 They have no access to lesser magic.
08:40 In order to have any access to lesser magic,
08:42 you have to be bonded or Venon.
08:44 OK, so she has more reason to become Venon.
08:47 That carpal tunnel.
08:48 I know, right?
08:49 It's like, get the printing press.
08:52 But what was fun for you about getting
08:53 to write that character specifically and sort of frame
08:56 it from--
08:57 Yesenia?
08:57 --first person perspective?
08:58 I love that Yesenia is kind of what Violet could have been had
09:01 she gone into the scribe quadrant.
09:03 So would she have gone with it?
09:04 Like, you know, the question in "Iron Flame" is just,
09:06 does Yesenia know?
09:07 And where has she been brought in?
09:09 And is she on this pathway to conceal this
09:11 and to erase their history?
09:12 Or is she going to take a different path?
09:14 And I think it's fascinating because it could just
09:17 as easily have been Violet there,
09:18 because Violet was slated to rise in those ranks.
09:21 I do love the little romance that
09:22 brewed between Sawyer and Yesenia.
09:24 I'm ready for that.
09:25 I was like, I need more.
09:27 I need more.
09:28 Him learning how to sign.
09:31 This little puppy dog.
09:32 It is-- and you have to.
09:34 Like, you have to work for it, right?
09:36 So somebody's got to work for her.
09:37 We'd like a little more of that, please.
09:39 Yes.
09:39 And especially now he's missing a leg.
09:41 He needs a little love.
09:42 Noted.
09:43 [INTERPOSING VOICES]
09:44 Give him a little something.
09:45 She's going to be on his bedside now, though.
09:46 Oh my gosh, yeah.
09:47 Through his recovery.
09:48 What are the key signs of telling
09:50 the difference between the red eyes of a Venom
09:53 and if you're just high or tired?
09:55 Right?
09:57 Because, you know--
09:58 So that becomes very important in book three.
10:01 OK.
10:01 I will tell you that.
10:02 That is super important in book three.
10:04 Because I think one thing I love about Venom
10:06 is the theory that absolute power corrupts absolutely,
10:09 right?
10:10 And you have this society where you can only gain magic
10:12 if a dragon approves of you or a griffin.
10:14 So if there's a way for you to snag magic and become powerful,
10:16 and it just costs a little bit of your soul,
10:18 and then a little bit more, and a little bit more,
10:20 like how much are you willing to pay for the power?
10:22 So, yeah.
10:24 But yes, it becomes very important.
10:26 Well, speaking of people being corrupted,
10:29 don't you think that we as the readers,
10:31 but Violet in particular, forgives
10:33 Dane like maybe a little too quickly?
10:36 So I think he has a lot to dig out from.
10:39 I think that she has some good evidence
10:40 to back up that his intentions are real and true.
10:44 And also, I knew kind of where he was going in book one
10:47 and where that arc was going to go.
10:49 And I think it's always fun to see things that change.
10:51 In edits, and things went a little deeper on Dane in edits
10:54 than I thought were going to happen.
10:56 But I already knew where his arc was headed.
11:00 And she does forgive him.
11:01 But I think book two is very much triage.
11:03 Like you're just dealing with what you have right
11:05 in front of you in that moment.
11:06 There's not as much planning to be had.
11:09 It also, that all occurs in six months,
11:11 as opposed to fourth wing, which takes a year.
11:14 I mean, I was reading that first book like, damn, who hurt you?
11:17 Yeah.
11:19 Did something happen?
11:20 Where did you get the inspiration for this man?
11:23 Dane to me is like the example of what
11:25 love you think you want, like when you're coming out
11:27 of high school, right?
11:28 And I think people forget that Violet's
11:30 so different after her first year.
11:32 And Dane's already been through it.
11:33 So she's expecting to see the guy she sent across the parapet
11:36 a year ago as her best friend.
11:37 And he's just been through his first year.
11:39 So he is not the same.
11:40 And he makes the ultimate mistake of trusting
11:42 his father over his best friend.
11:46 I know.
11:46 Yeah, you made me feel more sympathy towards him
11:48 now after you're saying all that.
11:50 He's 22.
11:51 He's 22 years old.
11:52 Aren't we all stupid assholes at 22?
11:55 I think I've said that to someone.
11:57 Someone sat down.
11:57 They were very cranky with me at a signing.
12:00 And I was like, he's 22.
12:01 And 22-year-old boys make bad choices.
12:03 Like, you know what I mean?
12:04 They're not immortal.
12:05 They're just little boys make bad choices.
12:07 Yeah, Dane's-- well, that's probably a good one.
12:10 He's in his--
12:12 And have you ever thought of writing a prequel about the six?
12:15 Has that ever crossed your mind?
12:16 I would say never say never.
12:18 But I think that--
12:19 I think it's a fascinating idea.
12:21 OK.
12:22 I like it.
12:24 OK, I have one more.
12:26 How long do dragons usually wait between the death of one rider
12:29 and bonding the next?
12:31 It depends on the dragon.
12:32 So dragons are just like people, except for they're
12:34 dragons and huge and incinerate things.
12:37 So like Taron, Taron had no desire to bond.
12:41 Nalen dies five years ahead.
12:43 Before, he's not over it.
12:44 He's still heartbroken.
12:46 And then his mate's like, hey, this little gold one's
12:48 going to bond.
12:49 I just need you to check this out.
12:50 Now he's stuck back with 20-year-old kids.
12:54 And he's had it.
12:55 Do you know what I mean?
12:56 He had no desire to.
12:57 So it depends on the dragon and what they want to do,
13:00 and also the state of the wards and what
13:02 they feel they have to do.
13:03 So people have to be on safe.
13:05 No, no, they're just-- they're people.
13:06 So everyone progresses at their own rates.
13:10 Is it harder to write the choreography of a fight scene
13:13 or a sex scene?
13:14 Oh, a fight scene.
13:15 A fight scene.
13:16 I mean, one, I'm experienced in the other type.
13:19 And two, I've never really taken out a sword or a dagger.
13:23 So I have some experience there, plus my husband's 6'4".
13:26 So if I have any questions, like, hey, honey, come on down
13:28 for a second.
13:29 Where's the height difference fitting here?
13:31 And of course, he's always happy to help.
13:33 This man is just shining in this interview.
13:35 He always does.
13:36 What did your husband say?
13:37 Jason.
13:37 Jason.
13:38 Jason.
13:38 Jason, you're a king.
13:40 You're round one.
13:41 He's going to be back, and he's got to be kidding me.
13:43 So fight scenes, I had to watch a bunch and kind of learn.
13:46 Because writing contemporary romance,
13:48 you don't have a lot of reasons to be throwing down
13:50 and aspiring that, right?
13:52 Were there any you watched that were super helpful or ones
13:55 that you found yourself coming back to?
13:56 Oh my gosh, I watched a lot of Jackie Chan.
13:59 I did.
14:00 I did.
14:01 I did.
14:02 I just kind of Googled really great fight scenes
14:04 and watched them to see choreography, because oh, man.
14:08 Tell me a little bit about how you want to approach some
14:10 of those fight scenes, specifically
14:11 like the aerial ones where you're dealing
14:13 with dragons and griffins.
14:15 OK, so my husband's an Apache helicopter pilot.
14:18 Right?
14:18 I know.
14:19 And it's funny.
14:19 During this development, everyone's like, oh,
14:21 she has her own dragon rider.
14:22 And my husband's like, the Apaches don't eat you.
14:24 [LAUGHTER]
14:25 Like they're on great fire.
14:26 Like they're helicopters.
14:27 And so I've written a lot of aerial combat
14:29 due to-- I usually write military romance.
14:31 And then I would take it to my husband and be like,
14:33 does this sound great?
14:34 Like physics, like when they're in physics
14:36 and they're talking about you can have lift,
14:38 you can have altitude, you can have speed,
14:39 like you can have power.
14:40 Like what do you have out of those things?
14:42 So I think we want to get into a little bit of spoiler
14:44 territory.
14:45 Spoiler.
14:45 Major spoilers.
14:46 Spoiler.
14:46 There's lots of spoilers.
14:48 Don't watch this if you haven't read it.
14:49 I guess I wanted to start--
14:50 this is book two of you said that this is a five-book planned
14:53 series.
14:54 Are you thinking of it-- are we like in Empire Strikes Back
14:57 territory?
14:58 Or do we have like a lot--
15:00 is there more like emotional devastation to come?
15:03 Oh, right.
15:04 Yeah, you should never trust me.
15:07 I'm not anyone you should ever trust with your emotions, ever.
15:10 I'm learning that.
15:11 Ever.
15:12 I just-- yeah, no.
15:13 I'm-- no.
15:16 But it's all plotted.
15:17 So I know how it ends.
15:18 I know what territory each book covers
15:21 and how each act arts over the books.
15:24 Yeah, that was one of my questions.
15:25 Like when did you know that this is going to be like five books?
15:28 Like you've got-- so it sounds like you've
15:29 plotted your ending.
15:30 And you know where this is going.
15:32 I do, yeah, which is shocking to me,
15:34 because I'm usually like standing at a board going,
15:35 what is happening?
15:37 I was writing Iron Flame.
15:38 And I called my publisher.
15:40 And I said, you know, I think this book
15:42 takes place over six months, because Zayden's graduated,
15:45 right, since we're in spoilery territory here.
15:47 Zayden's graduated.
15:48 And there are stipulations on how often he can see her.
15:51 And to remove this romantic arc, I
15:52 have to do it here, here, and here, and this timing.
15:55 And I said, I think it's six months, which means I think
15:57 it's a five-book series, because I
15:58 think this is what happens at book three, book four, book
16:01 five.
16:01 But I want you to think about it, because it's a big
16:03 investment, and think about it.
16:04 She's like, done.
16:05 It's five.
16:05 And I was like, well, no, think about it.
16:06 She's like, nope, done.
16:07 It's five.
16:08 And then I was like, oh, OK, all right.
16:09 And then we went from there.
16:11 I want to talk about the throne scene.
16:13 OK.
16:13 We all want to talk about that.
16:15 Specifically the my house, my chair, my woman.
16:19 That's all--
16:20 I was-- oh, gosh.
16:21 So when I plot, I'm a weird plotter.
16:23 I sit down, and I think about where the book is going,
16:26 and the scenes that come to my head about how
16:27 to prove these points, and get these people there
16:29 in a non-punny way.
16:31 And I put everything out on index cards,
16:33 and I put it on my desk, and then I move them into order.
16:36 And I knew the throne scene was something
16:37 I really wanted to drive home, that this is--
16:40 [LAUGHTER]
16:42 Wait, stop.
16:44 All right, my kids are going to watch this.
16:46 To kind of emphasize the point that he's made his choice,
16:50 that there is no love triangle here.
16:52 There's no struggle here, and that the biggest issue
16:54 between Kat, who is power hungry, she's not--
16:58 which is really funny, because I think some people were worried
17:00 that she would come out like a typical girl,
17:02 like a cat fight.
17:03 And I'm thinking it's a power struggle,
17:05 and no one would ask that about a man.
17:07 Like a man would do whatever it would take to get that crown.
17:09 I wanted to make sure that point was emphasized,
17:10 that there was never a triangle there, that he made his choice.
17:13 And the problem is actually Violet not trusting herself.
17:15 Has nothing to do with not trusting Zayden.
17:17 She doesn't trust herself.
17:18 I appreciate that.
17:19 With that scene, how does Taryn feel
17:22 about Zayden breaking the rule that we don't eat our allies?
17:26 Yeah, I think he's--
17:28 I think in that moment, Taryn's more like,
17:30 I'm going to peace out for a second.
17:32 So I'm pretty sure he throws that wall down,
17:34 because as were they have no problem sharing,
17:36 I think he's not there for that.
17:38 I'll just decide.
17:39 That was good.
17:40 That was good.
17:40 I appreciate that.
17:41 You're a fan yourself.
17:43 Jesus Christ.
17:44 That was funny.
17:45 And this is your first book club?
17:46 I'm just saying, you guys are set in the bar.
17:49 There's just like the scenes, like the one in the shower,
17:51 it's just like I'm sitting there picturing
17:54 the layout of the room.
17:56 And like, OK, where's her leg going?
17:58 And this, and he's putting his shoulder here.
18:00 Like, it's intricate.
18:02 It is.
18:02 It is.
18:03 And you have to read through it.
18:04 And I will tell you, my debut, it
18:06 had gone all through edits.
18:08 And then it came back, my editor was like,
18:09 I think we took his boxers off twice.
18:13 Maybe he's wearing two pairs.
18:14 Yeah.
18:15 But you have to go back and really--
18:16 Just let him go commando in the next book.
18:18 I know.
18:18 He won't hate it.
18:19 It'll work.
18:20 It'll work.
18:21 Did you know that they would make
18:22 the book talk early go crazy?
18:24 I had no clue.
18:24 I just knew that this is exactly what I wanted.
18:26 And then I kind of wait to see if my editor is
18:28 going to pull me back.
18:29 Does that make sense?
18:30 So I fling it out there, and I'm like, and this is this.
18:33 And then I wait for her to be like, pull it back.
18:35 And she didn't.
18:35 She let it run.
18:36 I was like, yes.
18:37 When did you lay the foundation that Jack was going to return?
18:40 Like, when did you decide that that was going to happen?
18:43 In book one, when he forces power into her,
18:46 it was the first hint that, one, that there's
18:49 a weakness in their wards that they're not spotting,
18:51 that they think that they're infallible
18:53 and they think they're beyond harm.
18:54 And so in book one, I laid that in when
18:56 they're on the sparring mat.
18:57 And he forces all that power through her.
18:59 It's not a stigma.
19:00 It's not a natural ability.
19:01 So do you know the exact moment he turned to Venom?
19:03 Yeah.
19:04 That's what I was hoping.
19:05 In my head, yes.
19:06 But we don't.
19:07 We do not.
19:07 We'll get to that.
19:08 We don't know.
19:09 It's the before after threshing.
19:10 It is the question.
19:11 That's what we're kind of like, can a dragon bond to Venom?
19:15 Book three.
19:15 OK.
19:16 Book three.
19:17 And I think if you were to-- it explores a lot about Jack
19:19 and, of course, because what's going on in book three.
19:22 You have to remember that Jack was not happy with his selection.
19:24 He wanted Taron.
19:26 And he felt like your power corresponds
19:29 to which dragon you have.
19:30 So he wanted the biggest, most powerful dragon.
19:32 And he didn't get it.
19:33 So Jack probably wouldn't have been
19:35 satisfied with any level of power except for Taron or Koda.
19:38 Interesting.
19:39 Who's on-- just not which dragon.
19:40 Yeah.
19:41 Yeah.
19:41 Well, that's not happening.
19:42 Right.
19:43 Or Seagal.
19:44 Seagal.
19:45 Alas.
19:45 Not Seagal.
19:46 So can Venom remain bonded to dragons?
19:50 He was.
19:50 OK.
19:51 So then--
19:51 Up until the end.
19:52 So how can one be bonded to a dragon
19:55 and also channel from the earth?
19:57 Is it just sort of like you can have both at the same time?
20:00 Different sources.
20:01 Just different sources.
20:02 Imagine you have outlets, right?
20:03 So if you have an outlet over here
20:04 that you're going to plug your hair dryer into,
20:06 and this outlet over here you're going
20:07 to put your curling iron into so that you don't blow a fuse.
20:09 OK.
20:09 You do have such good analogies.
20:11 The umbrella analogy, the armoire analogy,
20:15 like a battle axe.
20:16 I was like, you have to think through--
20:17 right?
20:18 When you're writing, you have to think things through.
20:19 Are you a fantasy reader to start with?
20:21 Yes, of course.
20:22 But I feel like sometimes we're missing that element that just
20:26 puts it right into the way of understanding that we need.
20:30 I wrote Fourth Wing to be more accessible,
20:32 to be a more accessible form of fantasy,
20:34 to bring people into the genre that don't normally read it.
20:37 So similar to that, I assume I know the answer to this
20:40 already, but will we be diving into the process of creating
20:43 Venom?
20:44 Yes.
20:45 Absolutely.
20:45 As you leave off book two, there's no other way
20:48 but to explore what makes them them, how they become them,
20:52 and if there's any way back.
20:53 During Violet's interrogation scene,
20:55 why did you decide to bring Liam into that?
20:58 One, I selfishly wanted to see him.
21:01 And two, he died protecting her.
21:03 And if anyone was going to be there in that situation,
21:05 it would have been him.
21:07 Because you can't have Zayden in that situation,
21:09 because then you would confuse the reader.
21:11 Is he there?
21:12 Is he not there?
21:12 Is he watching this happen?
21:13 Is he not?
21:14 What is she hallucinating?
21:15 But when you're in that level of pain,
21:17 the person most natural to come to her would have been Liam.
21:19 And I'm not sure if you can answer this,
21:21 but is this a hint at her second signet?
21:23 That one, I'm not going to answer.
21:26 But I will now.
21:26 I will tell you that everything you
21:28 need to know about her second signet
21:29 is actually in Iron Flame.
21:31 Oh.
21:32 You are flopping those hints.
21:33 I'm convinced that was actually him.
21:34 I think he's brought back to life.
21:35 I think she can speak to the dead.
21:37 I think it's a sixth sense situation.
21:38 I think so too.
21:39 Yeah, I think she has some connection to the dead or Malik.
21:44 Because--
21:45 So when Sawyer's leg gets bitten off.
21:47 Yeah, she screams and she's like, you can't take him.
21:50 I think that was a direct-- and it's italicized.
21:52 So I think it's a direct communication
21:54 between her and the god.
21:57 Close up on her face.
21:59 I know.
21:59 Everyone's going to watch this 10,000 times and be like,
22:01 is she smiling?
22:02 Is she nodding?
22:02 Is she like--
22:03 I'm like, poker face, poker face, poker face.
22:05 Maybe the love triangle--
22:08 like, Dane is totally out of the picture.
22:10 Maybe it's a love triangle between Zayden, Violet,
22:12 and Malik.
22:13 No.
22:14 I thought you were about to say Liam was like a dead guy.
22:17 Come on.
22:18 I was waiting for that to go.
22:19 Marie, you wild.
22:20 I'm done with love triangles.
22:21 You wild.
22:21 And it was never meant to be a triangle.
22:23 So when I wrote it, it was definitely never
22:25 meant to be a triangle with Dane.
22:26 It was supposed to show when you grow
22:27 and you think this is the person you want,
22:29 but it's not the person you need.
22:31 Like, it's just because at that growth at 20 years old,
22:33 you go to college and you realize, like, ooh,
22:35 that relationship was not what I needed.
22:37 I thought for a second it was going to be Jack.
22:40 When he came back all nice and you're describing him
22:42 with ice blue eyes, I'm like, don't
22:44 expect me not to fall in love.
22:45 And that would be a true enemies to lovers scenario.
22:47 That would.
22:48 I know.
22:49 When you were mapping out "Iron Flame,"
22:51 was there ever a moment that you thought
22:53 that Zayden's I love you declaration was going to be
22:55 at a different part of the book?
22:57 Or why did you choose to make it when Violet
22:59 was at her lowest point?
23:01 Because I think it's the one thing that can pull
23:03 her back at that moment.
23:04 And he saved it so long because he wants
23:06 her desperately to trust him, right?
23:08 And then he gives her no reason to trust him.
23:10 And you're like, please.
23:11 But it's kind of like if you fall in love
23:13 with the head of the CIA, you don't
23:15 think he's going to come home and talk about his work day,
23:16 do you?
23:17 Do you really?
23:18 And so he can't.
23:19 And he's so desperate for her to trust him
23:21 before he makes that declaration because he doesn't want to make
23:23 it when it's going to sway her.
23:25 He wants her to make the decision on her own.
23:28 And so that moment is the one moment
23:29 where it's like this is going to pull you out of this
23:32 and to bring me back.
23:34 So no, it was always going to be at that moment.
23:36 Well, speaking of heavy moments, were you
23:38 like twirling your writer mustache metaphorically
23:42 when you wrote that less than a minute,
23:44 that's how long it took for you to fall out of love with me?
23:46 Because it is crushing.
23:48 To me, it was just that moment where he's--
23:50 because he can feel that, right?
23:51 He can feel that intention.
23:53 And to him, he also has no faith.
23:55 So he hasn't been loved in so long
23:57 that he doesn't really have the same faith
23:59 that he wants Violet to have.
24:00 They're a hot mess.
24:01 Like, please.
24:02 They are a hot mess.
24:03 Emphasis on the hot.
24:05 Yeah.
24:06 We try.
24:06 We try.
24:08 But yeah, also diving into spoilers,
24:10 like let's talk about the big cliffhanger.
24:12 Zayden, you know, on this process to becoming a Venon,
24:15 did you always know that that was
24:16 how book two was going to end?
24:18 Once I started book two, yes.
24:20 It was driven all toward that.
24:22 And really, he's given every single thing
24:24 he can to save her.
24:26 How does that affect like his connection to his dragon?
24:29 Book three.
24:30 OK, that's a book three thing, I take it?
24:31 That's a book three thing.
24:32 OK.
24:33 I wonder how many times I'm going to say that in this.
24:35 Just hold up a three.
24:36 Yeah, three.
24:38 It's just very assigned with you.
24:39 Book three.
24:40 But is he like--
24:41 Violet says something about him like feeling like he's dying.
24:44 But he's not like-- is he technically-- part of his soul
24:46 is dead?
24:47 Or like how much is-- some of him dead?
24:49 Like, is he dead?
24:49 Book three.
24:50 Book three, OK.
24:51 OK.
24:52 I'm going to go a lot of book three.
24:52 But I would say the first time you take and you draw
24:53 something from power, it's like what portion of your soul
24:56 do you exchange?
24:56 Got it.
24:57 And how much?
24:57 And then as you see, like there's
24:59 an epigraph that walks you through the phases in book two.
25:02 So where you can see physical signs of what's happening.
25:04 And why was it so important to end with Zayden's point of view
25:08 and coming to Jack and asking him if there was a cure?
25:11 So book one ended in Zayden's point of view, which I loved.
25:13 And I had to do because if Violet woke up in book one,
25:16 and she would immediately--
25:17 I wrote it this way, trust me, it happened.
25:19 She wakes up and she's like, what is this?
25:20 What is this?
25:20 I want all the information.
25:21 Give it to me now.
25:22 And it became this like 7,000 word info dump.
25:25 And my editor was like, what happened?
25:27 I'm like, she woke up.
25:28 And it's what happened.
25:28 And so I kind of stepped back and said,
25:30 the way to do this is to really show the reader Zayden's
25:32 POV in this moment.
25:33 So they know that he does love her,
25:35 even if he hasn't said it.
25:36 That they don't think he's a giant, awful person,
25:39 as I think of swear words.
25:40 And so it was natural to kind of continue that into book two.
25:44 And I wanted to show that moment that he goes down and talks
25:47 and talks to Jack.
25:48 His immediate thought is, how do we get out of this?
25:50 Going forward, you've ended both books on that note.
25:52 But do you plan to spend more time
25:55 in Zayden's point of view in the future?
25:57 Or is it just going to be the last chapter?
26:00 I always say when he stops keeping secrets.
26:03 So when he stops keeping secrets, perhaps.
26:04 But until then, it's really hard to be in his head
26:07 and not give the reader his secrets.
26:08 So things like going back into the special edition
26:12 for "Fourth Wing," where I wrote the two scenes,
26:14 I had to pick scenes where his shields would naturally be up.
26:16 So you wouldn't know what's going on with the signet
26:19 until you read "Iron Flames."
26:20 I didn't want to spoil it.
26:21 So I'm so afraid that if I do his point of view,
26:23 it would spoil what's coming up in those revelations.
26:26 And I really like being with Violet,
26:28 because you get those real-time revelations.
26:30 And you're taking that journey with her,
26:31 watching it from above.
26:33 And speaking of his second signet,
26:35 is he just so mentally strong and in control
26:37 that it didn't drive him insane?
26:39 Do book three.
26:40 Oh.
26:42 I think I know.
26:43 I know.
26:43 Well, that brings us to our theory section.
26:45 OK, OK.
26:46 All right.
26:46 There's probably going to be a lot of pass
26:48 or it's in book three.
26:49 But we're going to ask them anyway, because we have to.
26:52 The assassin sent to kill Violet is described
26:54 as having red-rimmed eyes.
26:55 Are fans right to assume this means
26:56 Dane's father is part of the Venon uprising?
26:58 Pass.
26:59 Or were they just high?
27:00 Or were they just high?
27:01 Or were they just high?
27:02 Pass.
27:03 OK, we'll pass on that.
27:04 I mean, are they eating?
27:04 Are they snacking?
27:05 Is there lots of snacking going on?
27:06 Or are they trying to kill you?
27:07 Like, that's a--
27:08 We don't know.
27:08 Waste of matter.
27:09 OK, we got a pass.
27:10 We'll see if we can break around any of this.
27:11 Let's see.
27:12 We get a small glimpse into Zayden's upbringing,
27:16 including his mom.
27:17 Will that come into play in the future?
27:18 Yes.
27:19 Oh.
27:20 Is his mother Venon?
27:21 Pass.
27:22 OK.
27:23 This is amazing.
27:24 I like this round.
27:26 In that last chapter, we read this message from Nolan
27:29 to Lilith.
27:30 Why was Violet's mom searching for a Venon
27:33 cure before her death?
27:34 Like, is it just Jack?
27:35 Or--
27:36 We're going to pass.
27:37 This is so much fun, guys.
27:39 OK.
27:39 Could Violet's father still be alive
27:41 and/or have some connection to the Venon?
27:45 The sage, maybe?
27:47 No?
27:47 We got to know.
27:48 You don't think she would have recognized her dad?
27:50 I mean, after--
27:51 With red eyes.
27:51 --you had red eyes, maybe--
27:52 I picked tree.
27:53 I picked Voldemort after having had a party.
27:55 I still recognize him.
27:56 Star Wars.
27:57 What's the-- you're in Star Wars.
27:58 Star Wars, like, the hooded guy.
28:00 Palpatine.
28:00 Yeah, I picture him like--
28:02 I'm in Welcome to My World.
28:04 We could just--
28:04 She knows Star Wars.
28:05 Star Wars is all there.
28:05 --so much better than my own book.
28:07 It's OK.
28:07 She loves Star Wars.
28:08 I thought she was going to go Darth Vader
28:09 and Annie and Skywalker.
28:10 And I was like, we had a full on suit on.
28:11 I'm like, I feel like if her dad looked like that,
28:14 maybe she wouldn't--
28:15 I don't know.
28:15 I'd like to think I would recognize my dad in every form.
28:18 OK, but we got to know.
28:19 From a general rule, if somebody's dead, they're dead.
28:21 For a general rule, if they're dead--
28:23 From a story-telling perspective,
28:24 I'm fine that way.
28:25 Other than the fact that I laid in the foundation
28:27 that Jack wasn't dead.
28:28 Yes.
28:28 And Reddit.
28:29 Because his name is never Reddit.
28:31 True.
28:31 That's true.
28:32 Yeah, I roll call.
28:32 That's true.
28:34 This kind of came up like, I feel
28:35 like there's still more to uncover about Adarna's breed.
28:39 Like, at first I thought, is it going
28:41 to be that she's like half Griffin, half dragon,
28:43 or like some other-- because the camouflaging thing,
28:45 you hinted at.
28:47 And that's awesome.
28:48 But I still think that there's like more.
28:50 There is.
28:51 I don't know what my theory is yet.
28:52 An entire book worth.
28:53 [LAUGHTER]
28:54 I'm being rich.
28:56 OK, well, we got a no, a solid no on a theory, which is great.
29:00 And a few passes.
29:01 We'll take a say.
29:02 I think I gave us the least.
29:03 I didn't want to disappoint everyone.
29:05 So at least I could give one a no.
29:06 We got a couple book threes.
29:08 So we just have to be patient.
29:08 And now we just need book three.
29:10 When writing Violet, Zayden, and Dane,
29:12 was there anyone, whether a celebrity or people in your life
29:15 that you envisioned while writing them?
29:17 What do they look like to you?
29:19 No.
29:19 What does celebrity look like?
29:20 So what's funny about this is that Amazon and Outlier Society
29:24 came in so quickly.
29:25 Like, they-- as my editor's like,
29:28 stop telling people this story.
29:29 They got my first draft.
29:31 And I didn't know that until we were in a conversation.
29:33 And I'm like, that's not what-- and I'm like,
29:34 oh, you have the first draft.
29:36 And it's kind of like being thrown out there naked.
29:39 We're like, you what?
29:39 All of the writers here are like, no.
29:41 My nightmare.
29:42 Yes, nightmares.
29:43 You know, and so I was shocked they
29:45 knew they came on board and really grateful.
29:47 I will never really say who was in my head,
29:50 because I think that limits the diversity.
29:52 And since it's in development, I'm
29:53 not going to limit those cast roles to anything
29:55 that's in my head.
29:56 And readers are so passionate that were I to come out
29:58 and say, this is who I envision, there's
30:00 a hot chance that they wouldn't accept anybody else in that
30:02 role.
30:02 And I'm not going to do that.
30:04 Looks fair.
30:04 Very good.
30:05 That's a good answer.
30:06 I do want to clarify, though, because it comes up
30:09 a bunch on BookTok and online in general.
30:12 Zayden is a person of color, yes?
30:14 Absolutely.
30:15 Because a lot of people don't get that right.
30:17 No, he absolutely is, yes.
30:20 What's the difference between Tarn and Adarna's voice?
30:24 Can you at least say whose voices you picture?
30:26 Because we already have a vote for Sam Heughan.
30:29 I'm picturing a classic Liam Neeson, Jeremy Irons.
30:33 I know Liam did Aslan, but--
30:35 Benedict Cumberbatch.
30:37 Very rumbly.
30:38 Oh my gosh.
30:38 He already did a dragon, though.
30:39 I said he's good at dragon.
30:40 I don't want to limit these roles either.
30:42 But I think Tarn to me has always been an older voice,
30:46 if that makes sense.
30:47 More like an Idris Elba.
30:49 Amazon.
30:51 Call Amazon.
30:52 As I get a call, like, you said what?
30:55 I don't believe you.
30:57 Like, half my phone calls right now.
30:58 So yeah, so like an older, more established voice.
31:01 But he's just had it, right?
31:02 Like, poor Tarn.
31:03 I feel so bad for him.
31:05 And Adarna, no, just someone young.
31:07 Honestly, I can't picture her without picturing
31:08 that Fred Armisen meme that's going around right now.
31:10 He's like, I'm just a baby.
31:12 I can pay you in blocks.
31:14 I don't owe you money.
31:17 For you, do you--
31:19 and maybe you don't want to say either--
31:20 but do you picture these characters
31:22 with a certain dialect, whether it's American or British
31:26 or something else?
31:27 Mostly I would say American, because they all
31:29 have the same kind of dialect, unless you're speaking
31:32 in Tyrish or things like that.
31:33 But mostly American dialect.
31:35 I just think of Tarn as a person.
31:36 Does that make sense?
31:37 So to me, he's a person just in a dragon suit.
31:40 I don't want to say that.
31:41 But just a very curmudgeon-y old guy,
31:44 because he's based on my bulldog.
31:45 Oh.
31:47 It all makes sense now.
31:49 So his name was Diesel.
31:50 He passed just before "Fourth Wing" came out.
31:52 And he was 12 and 1/2.
31:54 And so in English bulldog years, that is ancient.
31:57 And by the time he went, he was like, have you seen "Twilight"?
31:59 Of course.
32:00 Have we seen "Twilight"?
32:02 I don't have to ask.
32:03 He was like the last Volturi with his arms behind him.
32:07 Like, he was done.
32:08 He was done.
32:09 And then we brought home a pandemic puppy, also a bulldog.
32:11 And he was like, seriously?
32:13 So that's Andarna.
32:14 So you have more of an Andarna vibe.
32:15 Oh, that's so cute.
32:17 And is the fact that it gives us a little hint
32:21 into it being translated at the beginning of the book,
32:24 does that reflect what becomes of our favorite characters?
32:28 The five.
32:29 The five.
32:30 [INTERPOSING VOICES]
32:33 Well, we've talked a little bit about the option and the TV
32:37 series.
32:38 But tell us more.
32:39 I mean, what's your involvement?
32:41 Obviously, you have three more books to write.
32:43 But are you going to be participating actively
32:47 in the adaptation process?
32:48 It's my goal never to step on their toes
32:50 and never to get in their way.
32:51 I believe in deferring to people in their areas of expertise.
32:54 And so I'm really lucky.
32:55 They're a great team.
32:56 I've met with them several times.
32:58 They asked if I wanted to come and sit in the writers
33:01 room with them.
33:01 But really, honestly, I think an adaptation
33:04 is an adaptation, right?
33:05 So the book stands alone.
33:06 And I'm really excited to see just kind
33:08 of what they do with it.
33:09 But they already have a writers room.
33:11 No.
33:12 No, OK.
33:13 Not that I know of, at least.
33:14 Well, you said they invited you.
33:15 In the hypo--
33:16 In the--
33:17 Yes, in the when we--
33:18 Got it.
33:19 So I was going to say, that journalist
33:20 green, she's digging.
33:21 No, no, no, no, no.
33:22 They were more like, would you be interested to come and sit?
33:25 And I said, absolutely, kind of thing.
33:27 But mostly, I would say, hey, that plot point
33:29 kind of acts book four.
33:31 Because I'm not a screenwriter, right?
33:33 Have you told them?
33:35 Or who knows what happens three, four, five?
33:37 Just you?
33:38 My publisher.
33:38 Oh, OK.
33:39 And I believe they know.
33:41 I think they sent that on.
33:42 Well, in terms of more, I mean, these books
33:46 have come out very close together.
33:49 Really impressed--
33:50 Oh, thank you.
33:51 --at the speed of your output.
33:53 So it's mean to ask this, but do you have a timeline
33:56 for when we get more?
33:58 So we haven't announced yet.
33:59 I will tell you that the speed at which I wrote "Fourth Wing,"
34:03 and I wrote a book in between, "A Likely Event,"
34:05 and then I wrote "Iron Flame," happened so quickly
34:07 in the middle of touring, in the middle of everything,
34:09 that it was really hard on my body.
34:11 And so I'm kind of respecting my limitations
34:13 and taking a step to be a little bit slower so that I can
34:16 be healthy through all of it.
34:18 So it's going to be a little bit slower.
34:19 But I have a release date.
34:20 I just can't tell you yet.
34:22 OK.
34:22 But I feel like--
34:23 Yeah, I mean, we're used to waiting years in between.
34:27 You're giving us action.
34:28 You're giving us spice.
34:29 You're giving us everything.
34:31 Feeding our souls.
34:31 Thank you.
34:32 Yeah.
34:32 Yeah.
34:33 Rebecca, thank you so much for joining all of us.
34:36 As you can tell, we're really obsessed.
34:38 We can't wait for more.
34:39 And what's next?
34:40 Stay tuned for book three release date.
34:43 Thank you for having me.
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