This month’s Scotsman property podcast in partnership with DJ Alexander focuses on energy efficiency and looks at how we can future-proof our homes, whether that is in order to lower our bills, our carbon footprint or to comply with new legislation.
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00:00 Hello and welcome to this month's edition of the Scotsman Property Podcast in partnership
00:07 with DJ Alexander. This time we're going to be concentrating on a hot topic, our home's
00:14 energy efficiency, with three experts to talk us through some of the key points. We'll take
00:19 a look at why the take up of new technology might be lagging behind government targets,
00:26 how upcoming legislation is likely to impact rental properties, and we'll hear a personal
00:31 account of an upgrading project which has turned an ex-local authority house in East
00:36 Lothian into one of the most energy efficient homes in Scotland. My first guest is Sarah
00:42 Lewis who is the Research Policy and Education Director of the UK Passive House Trust. Hi
00:49 Sarah, I know that you've designed many passive houses in your career as an architect, but
00:55 can you explain exactly what a passive house is? Yes I can, thank you very much for having
01:01 me on the show, we're delighted to be here with you today. So buildings in general are
01:06 a pretty significant kind of culprit of carbon emissions, so they're accountable for about
01:10 35% of total global energy consumption. So passive house is this kind of tried and tested
01:18 international standard which gives us a range of approaches for how we can design and deliver
01:24 buildings which are kind of net zero ready, so that's both for new and existing buildings
01:29 and it means that these buildings can kind of be optimised for a decarbonised grid and
01:34 also that they really focus these buildings on occupant health and wellbeing. So passive
01:40 house buildings provide this kind of very high level of occupant comfort while using
01:45 very little energy for heating and cooling. I'm presuming it is a lot easier to design
01:52 a house that is heading towards net zero from scratch, but for existing properties there
01:59 is a standard of retrofitting isn't there to gain certification, can you explain that
02:04 one and explain how different the approach is? So that is called Enerfit which is a slightly
02:11 relaxed standard for retrofit projects and that's kind of where the existing architecture
02:17 and conservation issues around the building fabric mean that meeting the full passive
02:22 house standard would just not really be feasible. So I retrofitted my own house so I could kind
02:27 of talk through some of those things around the retrofit work that we did if that's a
02:32 good way to kind of approach that question. It's why I had you on. Oh wonderful, okay.
02:38 So I live in a pretty typical 1950s ex-local authority end of terraced house in East Lothian
02:46 in Scotland and we retrofitted this as close as we could to the passive house Enerfit standard,
02:52 so that's the retrofit standard. So we focused on those kind of key components which are
02:58 universal to any passive house or Enerfit building. So the first one is thermal insulation.
03:05 So for us that meant refilling our cavity because we had cavity walls and to do that
03:10 we first of all had to extract out the ineffective fill which had been put in previously which
03:17 is a bit like hoovering the inside of your wall. So they put a big sort of hoovering
03:22 tube in and they hoover out, they suck out all the old insulation which wasn't functional
03:27 anymore and we refilled that with a modern version of the insulation. And then what we
03:32 did is we wrapped the building up with external wall insulation. So that was applied to the
03:38 outside but then we also have to think about that thermal insulation all the way around
03:43 the building. So for the floors we had a solid concrete floor slab so we actually insulated
03:49 on top of that, on top of the ground floor which was slightly tricky as we had to make
03:53 some adjustments to the ground floor doors and also the staircase. There are ways to
03:59 avoid that but that was the route we took. And then we also insulated the roof of the
04:04 building which we did without replacing the roof so we did that within the timber structure
04:09 and then underneath it as well. And we also had to fill in our old chimney flues because
04:14 those are otherwise just a big heat leak out of the building. So that was the kind of thermal
04:19 insulation. So the next kind of key consideration is around thermal bridging. So those are basically
04:25 all the cold spots that you might end up with in a building envelope especially if you are
04:30 doing retrofit works because you're improving some parts and you don't want to leave a
04:34 cold bit because actually it can concentrate where the cold air movement is and create
04:38 problems for you. So that's a wee bit tricky in an existing building. It's much easier
04:43 just to design these thermal bridges out in a new build rather than fix them in an existing
04:49 building. So for us that involved applying some insulation actually inside our building
04:55 and on some particular parts of the wall or up at the eaves level inside the building
05:01 so where the sort of top floor of the house those bedroom walls met the ceiling. So that
05:05 was a bit we had to look at. And in those cases we used natural insulation products
05:10 like wood fibers and things because we wanted to keep everything inside the house very healthy
05:15 from an air quality point of view. So those are that's quite componenty. The other measures
05:22 are windows, air tightness and fresh air. So I can go through those three.
05:28 Actually yes I was going to say all this insulation sounds incredibly cozy but as we know a cozy
05:35 house where there is no way that for the cold air to get in sometimes makes for an unhealthy
05:43 house. So how did you address that?
05:45 Yes so absolutely air quality is key here. So the final two measures I was going to mention
05:53 the windows are an area where at the moment in lots of people's existing homes that might
05:58 be where they get some of their fresh air from. So people have what are called trickle
06:02 vents which are little vents at the top of the window probably the thing you close and
06:06 tape over in the winter to stop the cold draft. But that's actually your fresh air supply
06:10 in the winter. So it's really important that those are open. But in our project we took
06:14 those out and we put in these super insulated sealed windows. So again that's not where
06:19 we're getting our fresh air. And then we went around the building and we tried to close
06:22 up any other unwanted drafts. So it was nice and cozy and warm as you say inside. But then
06:28 the big question is where does our fresh air come from. So we have this lovely fresh air
06:34 system which is kind of ducted around the building. And what that does is it brings
06:39 in fresh air from outside. It heats it up with the heat that's already in the building.
06:46 So it's basically taking warm air from stale areas in the house that goes to the outside.
06:51 But on its way to the outside it gives up its heat to that fresh incoming air. So it's
06:56 a really lovely system. They're incredibly efficient systems and they don't take very
07:00 much energy to run. So we we're an all electric house and the day we turned that system on
07:07 our overall energy usage dropped right off because suddenly we didn't need as much heating
07:12 because we weren't losing all that heat through the drafts. So that's yeah it's absolutely
07:17 lovely having that in the house. It's like my favorite thing.
07:21 It sounds it sounds like that was possibly one of the most expensive investments in the
07:26 in the whole system. Is that would that be right.
07:29 It was probably as an individual single component. It was an expensive component. It was as a
07:38 component slightly more expensive. We put an air source heat pump in as well which is
07:42 like when you switch from gas to electric that tends to be the technology you would
07:46 go for. That was another expensive component. They were close to sort of a similar price
07:51 to be fair. But some of the other things like replacing all the windows was more expensive
08:00 actually because there's quite a lot of work in replacing windows. They're quite expensive
08:05 things. It takes scaffolding. It takes quite a lot of labor on site to do it. So yeah unfortunately
08:13 each of these measures is quite expensive. And how about disruption. I mean I can imagine
08:18 having no windows for a few days would be disruptive. Did you move out or did you do
08:23 all this while you were in situ. So we are really lucky. We bought this house
08:28 and we decided to do the retrofit work. So a certain amount of the work we did before
08:33 we moved in and then as timing would have it we moved in not that long before Covid
08:39 and then we finished off the work sort of stuck in stuck in the house which actually
08:44 worked out quite nicely. But are there things that you can do because it is an expensive
08:49 process to do it all at once but are there things retrofitting that people can do in
08:54 stages. Absolutely. So back in 2016 the Passive House
09:01 Institute that kind of managed these standards or created these standards came up with a
09:05 step by step process. So there's actually a process in place and a special plan that
09:11 you set out for a retrofit project where you want to do it in multiple stages and that
09:16 might be over a number of years or it could even be decades. But the key is planning the
09:22 whole project up front. So for me kind of the worst case scenario is seeing people doing
09:30 retrofit things to their home that will prevent the next step of their retrofit. So I think
09:37 a lot of the time in the UK we think of single measure things we go oh I'm going to get an
09:43 air source heat pump or I'm going to insulate my wall or I'm going to replace my windows.
09:49 But what we need to do much more is say my building as a system needs to be updated from
09:56 where it is now to being kind of zero carbon ready. And to do that I'm going to do it in
10:02 multiple steps or stages. But I need to plan the whole thing out so that each step is done
10:07 in a way that supports the next one. Absolutely. And this is where the Passive House
10:12 Trust comes in because I understand that you are available to advise. Would it be normally
10:18 people working with an architect to do this kind of project?
10:23 Yes. Architects or some form of specialist consultant. So there's lots of people being
10:30 trained at the moment. So there's a sort of national program of retrofit coordinators
10:38 and lots of passive house designers are kind of suitably qualified to carry out that kind
10:44 of retrofit planning. So you'd be working with someone who's got a specialism in this.
10:51 And can all properties be improved? I know that yours was a 20th century property but
10:58 I mean we have a huge older housing stock in Scotland. And so are some properties just
11:07 beyond help or is there always something that you can do?
11:12 I think there's always something you can do. Every home for example could have that whole
11:18 house plan. So a plan for kind of decarbonizing that building. Some properties may never plan
11:25 to go all the way to the passive house enterfeit level. That full kind of enterfeit retrofit
11:31 just might not be the right choice especially if there's like limited budget. I mean as
11:36 a nation we certainly have a limited budget on how we're going to decarbonize all our
11:40 buildings. So we need some buildings that are going to be easy to do this work to, to
11:46 go all the way and become as energy efficient as they can to support kind of Scotland's
11:51 decarbonization plan. And certainly then also to compensate for those historic or really
11:57 challenging buildings that will never make it all the way to that kind of level of performance.
12:03 Thanks so much for giving us your professional expertise but also your personal expertise
12:09 in doing your own house. I think it's a fascinating story. Thanks so much Sarah.
12:15 No problem. Thanks for having me on.
12:16 My next guest is Jocelyn Fleming. She's the policy and public affairs officer for the
12:22 Chartered Institute of Building in Scotland. And she's here to give us a bit of a wider
12:27 perspective on the task ahead. Jocelyn thanks for joining me.
12:32 Thank you so much for having me Kirsty. I really appreciate it.
12:35 Now Scotland has some really ambitious targets to improve energy efficiency and reach net
12:42 zero for emissions by 2025. What's the state of play at the moment?
12:49 Yeah, I think it's, these are necessarily ambitious targets I think that the Scottish
12:55 government has outlined over the next 10, 15, 20 years and beyond. At the moment we've
13:00 got, we've got a long way to go. So very happily, good progress has been made in certain arenas.
13:07 We're certainly getting there but not at this scale or the pace needed to reach the objectives
13:12 that we have. The Scottish government's own statistics show us that we've still got around
13:16 89% of homes in Scotland that are using gas and oil, gas and oil boilers as well as LPG
13:23 systems for their space heating and largely water heating as well. So we've got a long
13:27 way to go to get where we need to be.
13:30 Absolutely. And what's the sort of, when it comes to numbers with a good EPC rating, the
13:37 Energy Performance Certificate, I think a good one is sort of A, B, C. What kind of
13:43 numbers are already at that level?
13:46 Yeah, again, the Scottish House Condition Survey that was released in 2021, we're about
13:52 halfway there. So 50% of homes in Scotland are rated EPC C or better. So we're halfway
13:59 there, basically.
14:00 And I know you've carried out quite a bit of research in this area. So why, according
14:04 to your research, aren't we upgrading and retrofitting at a faster rate?
14:10 The research that we released most recently looked at barriers from the perspective of
14:15 consumers and talking about their household specifically, which is obviously not the entire
14:20 puzzle of our housing system and the retrofit that we need to do, but it is a really important
14:24 piece. So probably unsurprisingly, cost was a key challenge. So 40% of our respondents
14:31 cited that affordability was a key barrier. There were other issues in terms of ownership.
14:37 Obviously, 23% didn't own their home. So energy efficiency sort of falls without, with their
14:43 jurisdiction in terms of the decisions that are available to them. And then from there,
14:48 there was somewhat surprisingly, I think, to me, some of the logistic disruptions I
14:53 hadn't considered. So people saying 1/5, 20% said that the disruption caused by retrofit
14:59 was a key barrier. And then 19%, which I think is really important, highlighted an overall
15:05 lack of understanding about how to improve their home's energy efficiency. And I think
15:09 that's a piece that isn't necessarily getting the same amount of attention. We all sort
15:13 of there's a discourse about the costs of undertaking these projects, but not as much
15:19 about actually how do we counsel people? Where do people go to figure out how they want to
15:24 tackle these projects and what the best approach is for their home?
15:27 So what would you recommend in that way? There are grants available, there is help and advice
15:34 available, but where can people go to find it?
15:38 I think one of the biggest takeaways from the research that we did was that yes, there
15:42 is funding available. There's grant programs and loan schemes in Scotland as well. And
15:47 yes, there is guidance that's also available. Much of this is being led by Scottish government.
15:53 However, there is a long way to go in terms of the efficacy of these guidance programs
15:59 and awareness of these funding streams as well. So I think one of the most alarming
16:03 results that we had from this data was that 39% of our survey respondents hadn't heard
16:08 of any of the loaner grant schemes that are currently available in Scotland or have been
16:12 available recently. And if you sort of pair that with the 42% that said government grants
16:18 would be an incentive to undertake retrofit projects, we've got a real disconnect between
16:24 what's available and what people know is available. Awareness is far too low of these schemes
16:30 right now. And I would suggest we also need to look at how fragmented these schemes are
16:34 and how accessible they are for people as well.
16:37 Absolutely. Do you think that there is reticence about the efficacy of some of these energy,
16:45 the technology, the new technology that you can replace older fossil fuel technology?
16:51 And what can be done to address that?
16:54 Definitely. I think, again, we didn't necessarily ask the question, so I don't have any data
16:59 points to hand. But I think, yeah, anecdotally and through some of the other research we're
17:03 doing, there's reticence not only about the efficacy, but also the longevity of these
17:08 things. We do know that there is a cost to maintain them, that right now with the current
17:14 system that we have, maintenance costs are higher for renewables, generally speaking,
17:20 compared to traditional types of heating systems. That will change when we get to scale. But
17:26 right now, that's what we're dealing with. So, yeah, I do think there is a reticence.
17:29 I think we need to tackle that in a few different ways. One, again, is raising awareness of
17:35 these types of systems, how they work, how they can work, when and how they should be
17:39 used. And that's with consumers, but also with the industry as well. So we've got an
17:44 entire group of people, an entire industry of people that need to be upskilled, that
17:49 need training on these systems. And we need a supply chain that's robust and reliable
17:53 as well. People need to know not only that these systems work, but that they're going
17:56 to work over the long term, that they're available when they want them, and that there's a system
18:01 of people that knows how to install them and how to maintain them over time. And that system
18:08 is a particular challenge in Scotland where we've got rural and island communities where
18:11 we're already facing a massive skill shortage in our industry. And that is particularly
18:16 acute when it comes to green skills.
18:18 I think as well that because there's so many public buildings that are starting to use
18:23 this technology, I'm thinking about the schools programme and hospitals, universities, places
18:30 of work. And I think the more people get used to being, well, comfortable and warm in these
18:38 types of environments, the more they will start to trust the technology in their own
18:43 homes.
18:44 Yeah, I think that's a great point. And again, I think it comes down to the awareness and
18:50 like you said, the comfort that we have about these systems. And these things will be proven
18:54 over time. It's about how much time we have for that to happen. We need to be taking quite
18:59 decisive, quite proactive action and leadership, I think, and that does have, the government
19:04 has a role to play.
19:06 Is there a big difference in the type of housing that is currently being upgraded, retrofitted?
19:11 I'm thinking about kind of social housing. Is there a gap between owner occupied and
19:17 the private rental sector, that kind of thing?
19:20 Yes. So I think, right now, we are operating in what is quite a fragmented system in terms
19:28 of the funding structures for energy efficiency upgrades and the approaches that we're taking
19:32 to retrofit in Scotland. So, you know, quite worryingly, that type of fragmented environment,
19:39 I think, does pose risks to our ability to ensure as a nation, that everyone, regardless
19:45 of tenure, has access to warm, good quality, affordable housing that, you know, they can
19:50 heat efficiently and affordably. The social housing sector has done a really great job
19:56 and they have some of the most energy efficient homes in Scotland right now. So 65% of social
20:00 housing is in EPC band C or better. So it's 52% across tenure, 65% for social housing.
20:08 We're working on a piece of research with some housing associations to outline what
20:13 the challenges are from their perspectives to undertaking wide scale retrofit, because
20:17 again, we've got a long way to go. But I do think the social rented sector has done a
20:22 really good job in terms of coming to the table to meet increasingly stringent standards
20:26 for their housing. But, you know, again, I think that the fragmented system that we're
20:31 operating in does pose real risks and that we need to be thinking a lot more holistically
20:35 across tenure, about how we make sure that energy efficiency upgrades are accessible
20:39 to everybody, regardless of whether they own their home or if there are in social housing
20:43 or in the private rented sector as well.
20:46 And is that something that the Institute would urge from government? Is that where you're
20:50 looking for the changes?
20:51 Yeah, I think, like I said, one of the big takeaways from our data is that I think there's
20:57 a really clear leadership role for Scottish government to play in terms of retrofit and
21:01 tackling energy efficiency. That absolutely includes funding schemes and loan and grant
21:07 programs. But I think it also includes things like guidance for people who are looking to
21:11 undertake retrofit projects. But in terms of a central policy ask, what we would like
21:17 to see from Scottish government is a clear long term strategy for retrofit. We need clarity
21:25 for the sector, clarity for things like housing associations about what the standards are
21:29 going to be over 10 and 15 years, where we need to be in terms of renewables. And that
21:33 has to include, to me, a resource and delivery plan that not only considers the amount of
21:38 funding that we're going to need in terms of actually undertaking the energy efficiency
21:43 upgrades that we need in Scotland, but also that looks at the human resources that we're
21:48 going to need to actually get this work done.
21:52 Like I said, these retrofit is a complex and it's a nuanced policy issue, and it crosses
21:58 multiple portfolios. So we need to be looking at sort of skills and higher education and
22:03 really looking in the long term to think not only, you know, how much funding is going
22:08 to be needed to do these retrofit works, but who's going to do the work? Are we training
22:11 students now that are going to be in place in 10 and 15 years to maintain all of these
22:16 renewable systems when they start to need major maintenance, reach their end of life?
22:21 So what we would like to see from Scottish government is a holistic, long term cross
22:26 portfolio retrofit delivery and resource plan.
22:31 Thank you so much for explaining all that to us, Jocelyn. No doubt we'll have you back
22:35 on over the next 20 years where you can update us on the progress.
22:40 Sounds great to me. Thank you so much for having me.
22:43 My next guest is Richard Tierney, Director of Customer Services for Letting Specialist
22:48 DJ Alexander, and he's going to talk us through some of the ways in which the rental sector
22:53 is contributing to the targets for net zero.
22:56 Hi, Richard. First of all, are you seeing a growing number of prospective tenants making
23:02 energy efficiency a priority when they're looking for a new home?
23:06 Hi, Kirsty. First of all, thanks for having me. Yes, I feel we are seeing an increase
23:14 in tenants sort of inquiring just around about that sort of energy efficiency element. I
23:22 think the impact, if you like, of the cost of living, how much rent is, energy bills,
23:27 it certainly plays like a factor into what people want to or what people want when they're
23:34 looking to rent a property.
23:37 I think you've also got this sort of there's so much in that sort of economic climate around
23:41 awareness of that net zero target, how it impacts us, and there's such a huge demograph
23:48 of people looking to rent, maybe in that 18 to 35 bracket, that it plays an important
23:53 part of their lives now, not that it shouldn't for everybody. But certainly that awareness
23:58 piece, it does start to, people do ask more questions around it. So yes, I think it does
24:04 play a bigger part in, doesn't essentially maybe put everybody off, but certainly plays
24:11 a part.
24:13 Rents are at an all time high, certainly in lots of parts of the areas of Scotland.
24:20 So I'm guessing people, what they really want is value for money. If you're paying top dollar
24:24 for your rent, you do not want to be paying a huge amount with properties with leaky windows
24:30 and inefficient boilers.
24:32 No, definitely not. And look, it adds to that journey. If you want to get a property where
24:38 you can move in, make it your home, stay there for a period of time, you don't want to be
24:42 in there for five minutes and then have to think about, you know, sorting a window or
24:49 a boiler or those types of things. So having that already in the bag just makes things
24:53 slightly easier.
24:54 Yeah, so it makes it more, I suppose, more attractive for landlords to upgrade their
25:01 properties in terms of energy efficiency. But I think I'm right in saying that landlords
25:05 in Scotland are already held to a higher standard than those in the rest of the UK in terms
25:13 of energy efficiency of their rental properties. Is that right?
25:18 Yes, you are correct, Kirsty. They're definitely sort of held to a higher standard just with
25:24 the current legislation. So the current standards in Scotland are band D. So around the, I think
25:35 energy performance certificate, so the EPC, it's obviously bandied A to sort of G. And
25:44 within there, obviously, it looks at lots of different things from walls to roofs, floors,
25:52 windows, heating. And Scotland's current grading is a band D. And then with England and Wales,
26:00 it's a band E. And so that's slightly, you know, in terms of sort of the way that it's
26:09 categorized in sort of terms of efficiencies, a band D sits in a sort of rating of 39 to
26:16 54% of the property being efficient versus a band D, which sits at 55% to 68% of property
26:25 efficiency. So there is a bit of a difference there in between the scales.
26:31 And how is that likely to change? I know there are changes afoot and various discussions
26:37 going on around tightening up that legislation. So how is that going to change in the next
26:42 few years?
26:43 Well, currently, it's sort of hard to say, I think, at the moment, given that we know
26:49 that the UK government have had a proposal in place, which included Scotland, England
26:57 and Wales to go to all properties to be a band C and above by sort of 2028. You know,
27:04 with in England and Wales, that's now been sort of put on hold. And in Scotland, it's
27:10 not so much put on hold, what they have done is they're currently or they're looking to
27:15 consult this year on a new bill, which is going to be called heat in buildings. And
27:23 this bill will include information on energy efficiency standards for the private rented
27:29 sector. So there will be some stuff to follow out of that. But currently, it's a bit of
27:34 a waiting game. We've not really seen anything come from that. So again, back to that question
27:39 of how will it change? It's still a bit unsure. You know, we're currently working to that
27:44 band D. But unsure over the coming years, what that might change just until the government
27:51 sort of publish anything for Scotland or England and Wales do something.
27:56 And it can be a huge expense. I read that somebody's analysis and mortgage companies
28:02 analysis reckons it would cost roughly about £3650 to upgrade a one bedroom flat from
28:11 EPCD to C. And, you know, something like a mid terrace, a small mid terrace is about
28:20 £6500. So are you seeing landlords making these improvements? Or are people waiting
28:29 until the legislation comes in until they have to do that?
28:35 I think it's a bit of both really. So within the EPC, the Energy Performance Certificate,
28:42 it gives you a lot of guidance in there for that particular property. And obviously any
28:47 properties that we sort of rent out, we have to have one. And anytime certainly, we look
28:53 to do anything within a property, we would see if there's opportunity to do something
28:59 differently within that property. So back to some of those comments earlier about maintenance,
29:04 etc. around windows, let's use that as an example. If we seen we would work with a landlord
29:10 and we would give them a bit of guidance to say actually, your windows do need replaced,
29:14 your EPC is showing actually windows would benefit you in X date, you know that we need
29:21 to change that legislation, that'd be 2025, 2028, whichever comes out, we would give them
29:26 a bit of guidance to try and do that earlier.
29:31 One of the things that could benefit them is certainly there's a lot of things online
29:38 that you can go and have a look at. But one of the things is the homeenergyscotland.org
29:43 website, a little tool called funding finder tool.
29:53 Funding finder tool. Yes, it's a bit of a mouthful when you try and say that fast three
29:57 times it would be tricky. But yes, the funding finder tool, you pop in your postcode and
30:05 what it does is it brings up anything around grants, interest free loans or other incentives
30:11 that you possibly could qualify for and also brings up any other useful information around
30:18 energy savings. So there is things out there currently that could allow people to go and
30:24 have a look, get involved, start some of those energy efficiency real savings now rather
30:31 than just maybe waiting on the legislation. And I think that's a real benefit for landlords
30:36 and tenants really. You know, you've got a nice property, really energy efficient, nice
30:41 and snug, you know, less challenges with the property and sort of everybody wins while
30:47 there being some funding available.
30:49 Yeah, yeah. And the more you can get a tenant who's happy in the property, the less void
30:57 periods you're going to have. Yeah. But I mean, with the onus on landlords to invest
31:04 in these measures, is it having an effect? We've we've heard about landlords selling
31:11 up in in large numbers. We have obviously the cost of living crisis, obviously mortgage
31:19 rates going up. And does this add just an extra burden which might impact on the flight
31:27 of landlords from the rental market? And how does that impact on the availability of rental
31:32 homes?
31:33 I think you made some great points there about the current challenges that we're in. And
31:39 yes, it's evident that, you know, some landlords are choosing to sell based on maybe costs
31:45 or impacts on them over the current sort of 12 months, if not sort of slightly longer.
31:51 I think what we've got around here, depending on what comes out, there is a like there's
31:58 a balanced approach to what you would do around energy efficiencies, because what I would
32:03 say is we are still seeing new landlords attracted to the market to do long term investments.
32:10 And we help them through the process. And when we do those at the early stages, it allows
32:15 us to talk about things like the EPCs, like what future things might come. And it's still
32:22 a growing market for people coming in to buy property. But I think you're right, you know,
32:28 if there's cost implications around EPCs, you know, there certainly will be that balanced
32:33 approach is does it impact potential landlords currently, it's more cost for them, and it
32:40 will give them a bit of food for thought.
32:43 I wonder, I was going to say, I wonder if landlords entering the market will be looking
32:48 exclusively for properties already with an EPC of C and above.
32:54 That's a great point. And I think when certainly we're talking to our customers, we're trying
33:00 to, you know, work with them early doors, whether it be, you know, potentially somebody
33:05 buying through us, it's actually trying to make sure or selling through us. You know,
33:11 anybody that is selling, if we can talk to them about the EPC and how they could maybe
33:15 do works to improve that, anybody that's looking for an investment is going to come on board
33:20 with that sort of straightaway. So I think it's a great opportunity for investment out
33:26 there. It is a difficult market, you know, you've sort of said yourself, and it is true,
33:31 you know, there has been a landlord selling this year, and we know there's a bit of a
33:37 sort of crisis for the number of properties versus the number of people looking to rent.
33:41 So I think there's still great opportunity, but there's lots of sort of things for us
33:45 to work through and work through collaboratively to making sure that we get it right for landlords
33:51 and tenants.
33:52 Thanks, Richard. It seems that both landlords and tenants should really watch this space
33:58 for new announcements.
33:59 Yes, definitely.
34:02 That brings us to the end of this edition. You've been listening to the Scotsman Property
34:06 podcast in partnership with DJ Alexander. Thanks to my guests, Sarah Lewis, Jocelyn
34:12 Fleming and Richard Tierney. Next month's podcast is due out in mid-December, and we'll
34:19 look at why January 1st is one of the busiest days of the year to search for a new home.
34:25 Goodbye.
34:25 Bye.
34:26 (upbeat music)
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