Breaking the glass ceiling: How 4 top TV execs really made it!

Your Cinema

Yourcinemafilms.com | 4 top TV execs share how they've climbed to their roles in the industry as well as what it's currently like.  Hosted by Annika Allen, featuring: Nick Smith (All3Media) Sheun Adelasoye De Nicola (Raw TV) Sukh Sahota (141 Productions) Stephen Yemoh (Studio Lambert)  Recorded at Our Stories Festival 2023.  ’Welcome to Your Cinema'  Follow us on socials: Tiktok: @yourcinemafilms Instagram: @yourcinemafilms Twitter: @yourcinemafilms

Transcript

00:00 Stories Festival was really set up to help support people from diverse

00:05 backgrounds to really get into the industry.

00:08 Those people that you see do fantastic stuff, they put in the work.

00:13 I'm Anika Allen, I'm head of diversity, equity and inclusion for All Free Media.

00:18 Some of you may have heard of All Free Media, some of you may not have, so just

00:22 in case I'll explain who we are. So All Free Media, we're the parent company,

00:26 we're a group of companies that make TV production and distribute TV shows.

00:31 And so we own 50 plus production companies that make over 4,000

00:35 hours worth of content.

00:37 So from the likes of Studio Lumber that make Traders and

00:40 Gogglebox to Raw TV that made Tinder Swindler to OMG that makes Lingo.

00:47 And we have a distribution arm, All Free Media International.

00:51 So you're gonna hear from four of our senior leaders within the group today,

00:54 who are gonna be talking about beyond the glass ceiling.

00:58 And so when we hear about breaking the glass ceiling, that term was coined kind

01:03 of symbolize the invisible barriers that are often there for

01:06 underrepresented groups to kind of break through to those leadership levels.

01:10 But these four talented and amazing people we have here today have broken through.

01:14 And they're gonna talk about their experience in the industry, their journey,

01:17 their successes, the challenges.

01:19 And so yeah, so we'll just get started.

01:21 So I'm gonna let them introduce themselves to you.

01:24 So Nick, let's start with you.

01:25 >> Hi, I'm Nick Smith.

01:29 I am the EVP of Formats and Licensing at All Free Media International,

01:34 which is the distribution arm of All Free Media Group.

01:37 So basically what that means is I look after all of the programs that

01:43 All Free Media production companies and some of our independent partners produce.

01:48 And work with foreign broadcasters and

01:49 foreign producers to help them make their own versions of those shows.

01:53 And I also look after licensing.

01:55 So whether that be a book, a board game, an app,

02:00 based on one of our TV shows, I kind of oversee the deals for that.

02:03 >> Okay, thank you.

02:06 >> Morning, everyone.

02:07 My name is Steven Yemo.

02:08 I'm a executive producer at Studio Lambert.

02:11 As Nick was saying, Studio Lambert make a lot of shows in the unscripted world.

02:16 I'm in the unscripted department.

02:19 We make Traitors, Gogglebox, Race Across the World,

02:22 Four in a Bed, Naked Attraction.

02:25 And I'm currently working on a show for Netflix, which is Squid Game,

02:31 The Challenge, which is a reality version of Squid Game.

02:33 >> I'm Shalna De La Soya De Nicola, and I'm an executive producer at Raw.

02:40 We make both scripted and unscripted.

02:43 I work in scripted.

02:44 We make lots and lots of brilliant shows, like The Tinless Windler,

02:49 which is like Three Identical Strangers.

02:52 Gold Rush as well is a great show for us, which has been going a long time.

02:56 And Parole Board is something that's new for us on the BBC.

02:58 It's doing really well.

02:59 >> I'm Sukh Sahota.

03:03 I'm a development producer at One for One Productions,

03:07 which was formerly Maverick TV.

03:09 We work as a label for Objective Media Group.

03:15 And we're quite well known for Embarrassing Bodies,

03:19 that very famous medical show.

03:22 And we recently brought it back, and I was involved in that as well.

03:27 >> Fantastic.

03:28 I actually worked for, back in the day, I actually worked for

03:31 Maverick, I'm ten years younger, many years ago.

03:34 >> I forgot to mention that one, ten years younger.

03:36 >> [LAUGH] So I guess the first question I wanna ask, and this is for you all,

03:40 is kind of, what's your why?

03:42 Why do you want to work in TV?

03:44 And what is it that's kind of kept you in this industry for so

03:48 long to get to the level where you are?

03:50 So I'm gonna start with you, Sukh.

03:51 >> I think actually,

03:56 it was probably because when I was growing up, it was quite,

04:01 you didn't really see much representation at all.

04:05 So I grew up in the 80s, and it was very scarce.

04:11 You barely ever see an Indian person on television.

04:16 And we used to play a bit of a game, actually, almost like Where's Wally?

04:21 Where you'd shout at the TV, Indian, every time you saw someone from,

04:26 they could be Greek, we didn't know if they were Indian or not.

04:30 But, and I guess that was a bit of a realization,

04:35 I think my mic's gone off, no.

04:37 But that was a bit of a realization that I needed to get involved in this from

04:43 bottom upwards, and I was always very creative as well.

04:48 So it was just a natural way for me to go, basically.

04:52 >> And Sharon, you're an award winning executive producer.

04:56 Can I just say that, she's award winning, so.

04:59 >> [APPLAUSE] >> Thank you.

05:02 It was good saying that, actually.

05:04 Brilliant.

05:05 So actually, the job I wanted to do is I wanted to be an interior designer.

05:09 But having Nigerian parents,

05:11 they were very clear that you're not gonna be a painter and decorator.

05:13 >> [LAUGH]

05:14 >> So be a doctor or

05:15 a lawyer, which I decided to do neither of those.

05:18 I studied politics, and I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do.

05:22 And I had a placement year, and I was in Holborn in Cafe Nero.

05:27 And a guy was trying to chat me up, and he was like, you know what,

05:30 you're a very inquisitive person, I think you should be a journalist.

05:32 And it wasn't something that I'd ever really considered,

05:35 because growing up, I'd only really seen sort of Trevor McDonald, and

05:38 that kind of was it.

05:40 And I just didn't really see myself as a journalist.

05:42 But I looked into that and did a course at City University,

05:46 a broadcast course in radio and television.

05:49 But I went more towards radio, and I stayed in journalism.

05:53 And I was in Parliament as a lobby journalist for a few years, and

05:57 then I moved to the BBC.

05:59 And I worked at the Today program, and

06:02 I found that a little restrictive in terms of the format that they had.

06:04 They were not really wanting to do anything new.

06:08 So I moved to World at One, which was a bit more open.

06:10 And then I moved into TV news.

06:13 And I was doing the newspaper reviews, and

06:15 was using my contacts from Parliament to come in and do the newspaper reviews.

06:20 And I just thought, why are we always using sort of journalists?

06:23 Why aren't we using real people?

06:25 And they were like, we can't do that, because what if they swear on television?

06:28 We know that these people are professional.

06:29 And then I saw a format, Gogglebox, and I was like,

06:31 that's exactly what I've been talking about.

06:33 And maybe I should be in Factual, and that's why I moved over to Factual.

06:37 >> Fantastic.

06:38 Stephen?

06:40 >> I had a dream, like many people, to be a Premier League footballer.

06:46 I was never good enough.

06:47 But what I never wanted to do was a nine to five.

06:53 And I loved telly, and I didn't see why not, really.

06:59 That's why I sort of got into it.

07:00 I loved shows like, I used to like a lot of live TV, Big Breakfast,

07:06 Don't Forget Your Toothbrush, things like that.

07:09 Just things that were people being paid to just essentially have fun.

07:13 And that's what I wanted to do.

07:14 I first thought I wanted to go into sports side of telly, and I sort of did.

07:18 And I did some, my initial work experience with that, Soccer AM at Sky,

07:22 and I loved that, and had a great few years there.

07:24 But what I did, what I found is that actually,

07:28 I sort of got into entertainment through a sort of contacts at Sky.

07:33 And that wasn't my route that I wanted to go down, but I really enjoyed it.

07:37 And I sort of stuck in with entertainment and got into reality,

07:42 and always stupidly thought I was a bit better than that.

07:46 And I wasn't, and I loved it.

07:47 And I thought, I'm not clever enough to write scripts or

07:52 do some investigative journalism, documentary or stuff like that.

07:55 But I can sort of tell a story and sort of have fun and have a laugh.

07:59 And that's why I wanted to do, got into entertainment and

08:02 just stuck with it through there.

08:04 >> I always wanted to get into TV.

08:09 Ever since I was a kid, I was obsessed with TV.

08:13 I guess it was a little bit different, sound like really old, back in my day.

08:18 Like growing up, because there wasn't the Internet, there wasn't social media.

08:23 So, and I mean, I guess some people have more TV channels, but

08:27 I had four channels growing up.

08:29 We didn't even get Channel 5 working in my house.

08:32 And so when we went to school,

08:33 everyone was talking about what was on TV the night before.

08:35 You'd all watch the same thing.

08:37 And that was my entertainment.

08:39 I wasn't as interested in film, not even music as much as I was TV.

08:43 I was completely obsessed.

08:45 So I went and one of my levels was media studies, and

08:50 then I went to university and I did a broadcasting degree.

08:53 And then I've worked in the TV industry ever since,

08:56 worked in development, creating shows, worked in production, making shows.

09:01 And then kind of moved across to working in, I guess, a bit more of the commercial

09:06 side, but still with a little bit of hands-on creativity with

09:11 broadcasters around the world.

09:12 And I just love being involved in content, because I think,

09:16 even if you don't realize it, so

09:20 much of opinions are shaped by what we see in the media and TV.

09:26 And I think I wanted to be a part of that and have a say in that.

09:30 >> Fantastic, so some of you may be in the industry already,

09:36 some of you may be kind of just getting in.

09:39 But in TV, we have an industry monitoring system called Diamond.

09:42 So at the end of each production, people kind of will get a link to this system.

09:46 They kind of fill in their diversity data so

09:48 you know who's worked on a production.

09:50 So in the latest Diamond report, it says that kind of the levels of kind of

09:54 senior leadership in terms of female talent, race and ethnicity,

09:59 as well as disabled talent has, female and race and

10:03 ethnicity has dropped, disabled talent still always been quite low.

10:06 So again, at that senior levels,

10:07 we're not seeing the representation we need in the industry.

10:10 So how hard has it been for you or easy if you think it's been for

10:14 you to get to the level where you are?

10:17 You're all in executive positions and things and so

10:20 you often hear it's kind of really hard.

10:22 And I know when I worked in the,

10:23 because I was on the creative end of the industry years ago.

10:26 And I left because I found that leap from getting to a system producer to

10:30 producer director kind of just really difficult and

10:33 just got really disillusioned and left.

10:34 And which is one of the reasons why I'm back in this kind of DER or

10:37 to ensure people have pathways in the industry.

10:40 But how difficult would you say it was for you to kind of get ahead, Stephen?

10:44 >> I think you got to start from the start really, it's always difficult.

10:50 Like, I'm sure these guys here, you're similar age to me.

10:54 As someone growing up not white in this country,

10:56 your parents always told you, you have to work harder than your white counterparts

11:00 because the opportunities are limited.

11:02 So it's not for me, it wasn't just a case of it being hard to when you get

11:07 to the senior level, you have to go in with a mindset that this is hard.

11:11 To get into any industry as a person of color, it is hard,

11:14 especially for when we were growing up.

11:16 And TV, for sure, when we were watching it,

11:20 there was a lack of diversity on screen.

11:23 There was some amazing programs which catered to our audiences, but

11:27 there wasn't a lot of them.

11:29 And when I went into offices as a runner, as a researcher,

11:33 I was the only black person there.

11:37 But I tried to not let it, what I found interesting,

11:41 I was talking about diversity a lot over the last few years.

11:44 But I tried to not think about it because I was always in store to think,

11:47 actually, you're gonna have to work harder than these people anyway.

11:50 So don't actually expect to go into a place and

11:52 see lots of people that look like you.

11:53 Because that's not how organizations recruited historically.

12:00 So I always sort of think, well, I'm here, and I've just got to do my thing and

12:04 make sure that I prove that the color of my skin doesn't limit my creative

12:09 abilities or my organizational skills or anything like that.

12:11 I've just got to work hard.

12:12 But I think it is sometimes challenging to go into a room and

12:18 you see a lot of people growing up with public school education.

12:24 Lots of inns through family and friends that you don't have.

12:28 But you've just got to try and persevere, have belief and

12:32 confidence in your talent, because you wouldn't have got that step through the door

12:36 if you didn't have something about you.

12:37 So you just gotta have, I think you've had to have a belief within yourself.

12:42 And the last few years and

12:45 unfortunate events have meant that doors are opening.

12:48 I don't know if other people, but I found come 2020, George Floyd died.

12:56 I was getting loads of phone calls from companies.

12:59 That wasn't a coincidence.

13:00 I mean, I was around before, but I was working with a lot of the same companies.

13:05 But George Floyd died, all of a sudden people need black execs.

13:08 Do you know what I mean?

13:09 So I was getting a lot of phone calls and people going, we know you're amazing.

13:12 We know you're, you've never worked with me.

13:13 >> [LAUGH]

13:15 >> How do you know that I'm amazing?

13:17 So there is an opportunity now for

13:21 people to seize the fact that people are looking inwardly and

13:25 saying we don't have enough representation.

13:27 And it's not just about representation, it's about different voices.

13:30 We listened to the comedy thing before and

13:32 people talk about different voices speak to different parts of the UK.

13:35 And I think having the diversity of creative ideas is really important,

13:39 especially in a media like television.

13:41 >> And Sharon, from a kind of lens of gender as well, and

13:47 being in the world of politics, journalism, and TV,

13:49 [LAUGH] you've seen a kind of plethora of areas.

13:53 So what are your thoughts in terms of kind of elevating to senior levels,

13:57 your journey?

13:59 >> I suppose growing up, you are, I'll agree,

14:02 you're always told if you're black, you've got to work twice as hard.

14:05 You're told if you're a woman, you're not gonna get a job.

14:07 You're told if you've got a disability, you're not gonna get as far.

14:10 I have all of those three things.

14:12 So for me, it was putting that to one side and

14:15 just focusing really on what I wanted.

14:18 Now when I changed career from journalism into factual,

14:21 I was a producer in news, and I thought I could just go across to factual.

14:26 And everyone was like, no, you cannot go across.

14:29 It's a completely different industry.

14:31 You have to start as a runner.

14:33 And at that point, I was just like, well, I can't run like I'm 28.

14:37 [LAUGH] Which I just can't do it.

14:40 But I had lots of coffees and chats with various people who couldn't really help

14:45 me, but sometimes they knew people and they said, why don't you have a coffee with

14:49 this person, and I just took all of the advice that I had and really just soaked

14:54 it up, and when people said, go to this job fair, it was a BAFTA job fair.

14:59 I went, and often people don't always take that advice.

15:03 And when I went, the woman that I'd met with was really surprised that I was

15:06 actually there, and she was just like, wow, you actually took the advice.

15:10 And there wasn't a job for me at that job fair.

15:12 But she remembered me, and two weeks later, she said,

15:15 you were talking about this show called First Dates.

15:17 You were like, this is what you love watching.

15:20 They're actually looking for a development assistant, stroke PA.

15:24 And she was like, I know it's not really the job that you want.

15:27 You wanna produce a job.

15:28 But why don't you have a conversation with this company, which is called 20/20?

15:32 And I did.

15:33 I had a conversation with them.

15:34 I had three grueling interviews where I had to cut a sizzle from rushes.

15:39 I had to design a proposal.

15:41 I also had to write a treatment for an idea that they were doing.

15:44 I interviewed with the CEO, the creative director, and

15:48 the head of development, all waiting to see, have I got the job?

15:51 Have I got the job?

15:52 And they gave me the job.

15:53 And I took a really, really, it was a low paying job.

15:58 It was a huge pay cut.

15:59 And being 28 at the time, that's quite hard.

16:03 I was living at home with my mom, and she was brilliant,

16:05 because she still didn't really understand what I was trying to do.

16:08 And still like, you should have been a doctor, and you would have been fine.

16:11 [LAUGH]

16:12 But sort of having that person on my shoulder saying, should have been a doctor,

16:16 should have been a doctor, even in the pandemic when everyone's jobs were at

16:19 risk in this industry.

16:20 It was like, well, if you were a doctor, you would have a job.

16:24 So having that, having the fact that I'm in all of those three boxes, and

16:29 people are always telling you that you can't do it, I kind of just ignore

16:33 all of those things, and I don't actually really think about it.

16:36 I just have that focus that this is what I want to do.

16:39 And just to pick up on what you said about moving from AP to producer,

16:44 that is really, really hard.

16:46 And that primarily is because of the pay difference.

16:48 There's quite a jump.

16:50 And when you're really good at doing everything and you work really hard,

16:53 which is something that's innate in minorities,

16:55 because they're told you have to work really, really hard, people like you cheap.

17:00 You can do everything really well, and they're not necessarily prepared

17:04 to take that chance on you and help elevate you.

17:07 But I would say that I met some really incredible people in the industry who

17:11 really, really helped me.

17:13 So the first person was the person I was an assistant to.

17:17 She was a creative director, and she knew that I wanted to do more,

17:21 and she could have kept me as an assistant because I was getting her

17:23 into cool restaurants, I was getting bookings, I was using my contacts

17:27 from my previous role, and I was super organized.

17:30 But she recognized that it wouldn't have been fair to keep me in that role,

17:33 and she gave me my first researcher's position.

17:36 And then from there, I was just off.

17:38 I was finding stories that I was really interested in, and when that company

17:41 didn't serve me anymore because I felt that the stories I wanted to tell were a

17:45 bit more gruesome than the stories that they had, I moved on to another company

17:50 where I sort of focused on crime stories and justice.

17:53 And I just had that focus, and I just encourage everybody to be focused.

17:58 If you are taking a chance on this industry, which is absolutely incredible,

18:02 it is hard, but if you want to do it, you can do it.

18:06 And there are barriers, but if you just focus, it will happen.

18:10 And getting my first exec credit, I got that in 2020, of course,

18:14 and I had to fight for that because initially it was like,

18:18 "Oh, you know, you're really good at access and talking to people

18:21 and getting people on side.

18:22 You can produce this."

18:23 And I was just like, "Well, if you want me to produce it,

18:25 I won't be producing it.

18:27 I'll be executive producing it or nothing."

18:29 And you have to have that courage to say that when you believe that you can

18:33 actually do something, and then I got my first exec credit.

18:36 And shortly after that, I moved to another company as an executive

18:41 producer with only one credit, which doesn't often happen because

18:46 people don't necessarily want to take a risk on you because you've only

18:49 got one credit.

18:50 You haven't necessarily proved yourself, even with brilliant references.

18:54 But actually, Raw did take a chance on me and gave me a four-part series

18:58 with a budget bigger than anything I've ever worked on before.

19:00 I'd worked on singles.

19:02 And, you know, it has paid off for them.

19:05 That series did win an award and has been nominated for two Grissons.

19:09 But, yeah, it is hard, but if you know you want to do it,

19:12 you can absolutely do it.

19:14 - I think that deserves a round of applause.

19:16 (applause)

19:18 Classic.

19:22 So, you were talking about stories and storytelling.

19:24 So, Sook, authentic representation on TV, are we there yet?

19:28 - Oh, it had to come to me first, didn't it, this one?

19:33 I'd say we are almost there, if I'm honest.

19:39 I think when I started in development, television development,

19:44 it must have been about almost 15 years ago, there's been a lot of talk

19:48 about diversity, authentic diversity.

19:52 And I think the focus then was on visibility, you know, can you see diversity?

20:00 And there was a lot of talk, not much action.

20:05 And I would say over perhaps the last few years, I think there's been more serious

20:13 efforts to try and improve that.

20:15 And, you know, again, it's highly focused on visibility.

20:20 So, you know, casting, talent, which is actually very important.

20:27 And also in the background, you know, who are you recruiting?

20:31 I think, you know, as Stephen just said earlier, with the Black Lives Matter

20:39 movement, there was more of a push then to try and ring fence investment,

20:47 you know, money, commissioning money towards content.

20:52 And I would say, you know, there's now a recognition that we need diversity

20:58 of content made by diversity of people, basically.

21:02 And I think that is where there still needs to be more, you know.

21:07 I would say, and, you know, this is coming from development person,

21:11 and we all want more money, right?

21:13 Yes, that's why we're here, to make shows.

21:18 And there isn't enough out there.

21:21 But, you know, it takes big risks for a commissioning editor.

21:26 So we can understand why they might feel, you know,

21:30 we can't make that show, you know, right now.

21:34 But, you know, cultural changes inspire what we do in television.

21:42 And I think that's why I'd say we're getting there.

21:46 You know, we're still looking out at the rest of the world,

21:48 and we're saying, what are you telling us, you know, that we need to do?

21:52 What's our next change?

21:54 What's our next move?

21:55 And I think, you know, we're all here to obviously implement that change.

22:01 But there's still, you know, a lack of investment from the top,

22:07 helping us make that change.

22:09 You know, we're looking for successes.

22:12 And, you know, often we can only make those successes based on what we know,

22:18 you know, what has already worked, what's the formula, you know.

22:21 We emulate that, you know.

22:24 We're trying to make the next Traitors, although, you know,

22:26 you're looking at these big successes.

22:29 I think for television, there needs to be more risk taking.

22:35 And with that risk taking, we'll be better at getting authentic diversity.

22:44 - Yeah, lots of good points there.

22:46 I think actually inherently TV is very risk averse, which is its problem,

22:51 and it stifles creativity, which is, you know, that's a bigger question.

22:55 But I think for me, I think we've made it in terms of representation

23:01 when there is shows made by, you know, people of colour that I don't know about.

23:06 Do you know what I mean?

23:07 Like, every show that's made by like a diverse...it's got a diverse story,

23:13 I know it.

23:14 Do you know what I mean?

23:14 Like, and when there's like shows which aren't very good,

23:17 there's a lot of shows which aren't very good by people of colour,

23:19 then I think we've made it because there's a lot of shows which are not very

23:22 good, which serve the white audience, but they keep coming back.

23:26 But every show that's made by a black producer or an agent has to be brilliant.

23:31 Do you know what I mean?

23:32 When there's the risk taking on shows which aren't particularly good,

23:35 and you don't know about them, I think that's when we know that people

23:38 are, you know, actually putting their money where their mouth is and going,

23:42 "We'll give this a go if it doesn't work, so what?"

23:44 But at the moment, they're already giving opportunities to things which are

23:48 short by hits, like Dreaming Whilst Black, which we were just talking about.

23:50 That was a hit.

23:51 That's why everyone knows about it.

23:52 Whereas there's 10 other comedies that are written for black stories,

23:59 which aren't very good, but they get the opportunities.

24:01 And I don't think that's what we get in our space.

24:04 - I completely agree.

24:05 I was having a talk with a director yesterday where I was saying that,

24:09 you know, black, Asian, and ethnic diverse talent in the industry don't get a

24:12 chance to be mediocre.

24:14 You don't just get a chance to go into a job and just be like,

24:16 "I'm just going to be okay.

24:17 I'm going to coast, and I'll still get called back for another job."

24:21 We always feel like you have to operate at a level of kind of like excellence

24:24 and things.

24:24 And it's just like, "Why can't I just be okay going into a job and go and get paid?"

24:31 Nick, for the area of kind of distribution and things, many people in the audience

24:36 probably don't even know fully kind of what that space looks like or why that

24:41 area is important in TV and actually how you can kind of rise to the top in that

24:45 kind of space and things.

24:46 So could you just talk a bit more about kind of why it's, I guess,

24:49 a great area in TV to work?

24:51 Because I find that actually when you're a producer, director,

24:55 executive producer, assistant producer, you're going from job to job,

24:58 and there might be gaps.

25:00 There ain't gaps in...

25:01 There aren't gaps in kind of the work that Nick's doing.

25:03 You're kind of consistently working.

25:05 And it's an area in TV that I think people should consider and think about as well.

25:09 So over to you.

25:10 - I would say distribution is important because it's where the money's at.

25:16 If we're being honest, budgets are being challenged.

25:20 I'm sure all of my colleagues on the left, when they're making shows,

25:25 are kind of looking back to a few years before when the budgets were more healthy

25:29 and having to make things work.

25:31 And quite often, we even have to come in and support.

25:34 So channels are maybe giving 80%, 90% of the budget, and, you know,

25:40 a distributor will come in and fund the gap, the deficit.

25:46 And what distributors do is sell those programs abroad and exploit the programs

25:53 in other ways, like I mentioned before about kind of off-screen licensing.

25:58 So that's where producers really make the money.

26:00 I mean, if you look at...

26:03 We don't really have so many of the premium-rate phone calls anymore.

26:07 But if you remember the kind of whole, "Who wants to be a millionaire?"

26:11 Big brother.

26:12 If you were ringing to try and get on the show or ringing to vote people out,

26:16 they made absolute fortunes from that.

26:20 It's not quite the same business model anymore, but, yeah,

26:22 there's a lot of money there.

26:23 So that's why I guess it's an important thing in terms of, as a job,

26:29 why I like working in distribution.

26:32 More so before the pandemic, but still to an extent now,

26:36 I get to travel quite a lot.

26:38 Been to lots of places that were amazing to see, some that I must go,

26:43 that I have no desire to ever go to again.

26:48 You know, when you work on a production, quite often,

26:51 they can be very stingy in terms of, especially if you're shooting away,

26:54 you kind of get...

26:55 I'm going back to my days now, you know,

26:56 kind of getting a fiver or a tenner for your dinner.

27:00 I'm sure it's a little bit more. I hope it's a little bit more now.

27:02 - Six. - Expand to that.

27:04 OK, yeah.

27:05 Just about to get some chips in Nando's.

27:08 But, you know, I'm out meeting with the commissioners at broadcasters

27:14 around the world and I get to take them to the best restaurants in the cities,

27:17 which is quite nice when you're not paying and you're getting to do that.

27:20 So I guess...

27:22 But I guess probably the thing that I love most about my job

27:26 is getting to work with different cultures

27:30 and finding out what works and what relates in those countries

27:36 and what society's like.

27:37 And it's really interesting that some shows that are big hits in one country

27:42 are complete flops in another or would never be commissioned in another.

27:45 And you kind of learn the differences and you learn how to talk about shows

27:48 and how to present shows that would work in Northern Europe

27:54 and try and pitch them another way so they could work in the Middle East.

27:58 I think it's quite fascinating.

28:01 Fantastic.

28:02 So in a minute, I'm going to take some questions from the audience.

28:04 So please do start thinking about what you'd like to ask

28:07 because I want to see lots of hands up when it comes to that time.

28:10 But before then, for each of you, kind of just to end with me asking the Q&A,

28:15 my final question to you is,

28:17 what's your vision for, I guess, yourself, your own career personally,

28:21 as well as for the industry kind of moving forward?

28:24 Kind of like what would you like to see happen in the industry

28:27 and what would you love to see happen for yourself

28:29 kind of personally in your profession as well?

28:32 So, Sokol, start with you.

28:34 Um...

28:36 Oh, well, I guess it's, you know,

28:41 personally, I want to hone my craft and just get better at what I do.

28:48 But I've always been interested in doing things differently.

28:52 So finding new ways to tell stories.

28:56 You know, how can you do that?

28:57 You know, what's the next rig?

29:00 What's the next way of...

29:03 What's a new way of doing a format, even an interview?

29:06 I think about 10, 15 years ago,

29:09 we started seeing people talk down the lens in an interview

29:12 and then every show had it, you know.

29:15 What can we do next to progress the industry?

29:18 You know, change the language of how we tell stories.

29:22 And I think that's something that television is really good at.

29:28 We're constantly evolving and finding new ways

29:31 to tell these amazing stories.

29:36 And I think, you know, personally, I'm always pushing to find,

29:41 you know, what are other people doing?

29:42 And digital is a really good place to go for inspiration.

29:47 I think they are...

29:49 What people are doing online is, you know,

29:53 feeds into what we then do later.

29:57 And I think, you know, we live in a world

29:59 where there's so much inspiration out there.

30:01 And I just hope to push that into our industry

30:05 and our industry then puts out in the world, into the world.

30:08 And yeah, so how can we tell stories differently, basically?

30:14 Fantastic. Sharon?

30:16 I think I'm going to continue just doing what I'm doing.

30:19 I'm really happy doing that at the moment.

30:21 But what I've enjoyed most is collaborating with new talent.

30:25 You know, sometimes I watch documentaries and I'm like,

30:27 "Oh my God, that's a great documentary.

30:29 Look at the way that's shot."

30:30 And I'm always just sort of looking at the credits

30:32 for the documentaries that I really love.

30:33 And I'm like, "Take the name of that person.

30:36 I'll reach out to them on LinkedIn, have a coffee."

30:38 And because I do development as well,

30:40 if I come up with an idea and I think,

30:41 "Oh God, I'd love to collaborate with them."

30:43 That's what I encourage people to do.

30:45 It's what is quite a bit boring

30:48 is when you sort of see the same type of people

30:50 making the same shows.

30:51 It's the same people always working together

30:53 instead of mixing it up.

30:55 And then you end up with the same sort of output

30:57 and different channels.

30:58 You just know exactly what it's going to be.

31:01 So yeah, just more collaboration,

31:03 more risk-taking definitely I think is so, so important.

31:07 I think it is hard for commissioners

31:09 because they want that hit.

31:10 They want something that's definitely

31:11 going to be award-winning.

31:12 And that does transfer into,

31:14 "I just want the next this."

31:15 But what I want to continue to do is just innovate.

31:20 Like I don't go into pitch meetings

31:22 giving them what they've asked for.

31:24 I go into pitch meetings,

31:25 giving them what I'm excited about.

31:27 And I try and get them excited about it.

31:29 And that just makes the best programme.

31:31 So that's what I want to continue doing,

31:33 just collaborating, new talent,

31:35 just people that I'm envious of.

31:38 Because I'm not envious of you,

31:40 like you stayed back there.

31:41 I want to work with you.

31:42 Like you're really cool.

31:43 I love what you did with that film.

31:44 I loved how you shot that interview.

31:47 And so that's what I think I'll be doing.

31:49 - I think for me,

31:53 I was lucky enough to be involved with "Love Island"

31:56 when it rebooted in 2015.

31:59 And when it was starting to get really successful,

32:02 I was like, I remember saying to the team,

32:04 like, "You have to treasure this

32:06 "'cause this doesn't happen very often,

32:07 "that you start working on a show,

32:08 "it becomes a big national and international hit.

32:11 "So I'd love to work on a show again

32:13 "that becomes a big hit from the start

32:15 "to becoming like a household name

32:17 "'cause that doesn't happen very often in your career."

32:20 So just enjoy that feeling again, that'd be great.

32:23 In terms of the industry,

32:24 I just echo again,

32:26 less, less, become less risk averse.

32:30 That'll be good.

32:31 Take steps.

32:31 We've got a, technology is changing the landscape

32:33 for TV so much.

32:34 And like people are saying, you know,

32:36 audiences are switching off.

32:37 There's so much competition and stuff like that.

32:39 But how can we make it, you know,

32:41 the thing that people wanna do?

32:42 Like we always, we saw this,

32:44 'cause it was the thing for us.

32:45 We'd all sit around the TV with our families and watch it.

32:47 How can, what's gonna be next to make that,

32:51 to keep TV as a thing that people want to do

32:53 in an industry that people wanna get into.

32:55 Like I saw the BAFTAs a couple of years ago

32:57 when like Mo and Big Zoo were winning awards

33:00 and they were having parties at Sower House.

33:02 I think that was like such a moment

33:04 for young people of colour because I didn't see that

33:08 for years.

33:09 Brilliant broadcasters,

33:10 Ant and Dec, Bruce Forsyth and all that.

33:12 They were winning all these awards.

33:13 But to see young black people doing that,

33:15 that was like a real meal.

33:16 And I hope that inspires lots of great talent

33:18 to come into the industry coming forward.

33:23 I just wanna do more new things.

33:25 That's what I kind of thrive on.

33:27 So, at the moment, I'm not allowed to talk about

33:33 some of the stuff that we're doing.

33:34 But next year we've got some new products launching,

33:37 things that I've never done before.

33:39 So I'm really kind of excited to kind of grow my skillset

33:44 and get involved in and learn about things that I didn't.

33:47 I think you're never too old to stop learning.

33:52 So I'm excited about that.

33:54 And just for the industry in general,

33:55 I just think it's great that I think the industry

34:00 has recognised that, and unfortunately it came at 2020,

34:05 that there was a diversity problem.

34:07 It's great that they're trying to do things to solve it.

34:10 It's gonna take some more time for people of colour

34:14 to get into higher positions.

34:19 'Cause I think I can speak for myself.

34:21 I know I've had some small wins where,

34:22 because I've been in a room,

34:24 I've been able to influence something

34:26 that could have been very negative.

34:27 We've all seen like advertisements or newspaper reports

34:30 and you just kind of thought,

34:31 there's no person of colour working at that organisation,

34:34 otherwise that would never have gone out.

34:36 But there's still too many things that are going out

34:39 that are bad, and there's just not enough of us in the room.

34:42 So I just hope that there'll be more of us in the room.

34:45 - Fantastic, thank you.

34:46 Good, good, feel free to clap.

34:48 (audience applauding)

34:52 So does anybody have a question?

34:54 Yep, perfect.

34:55 Hello?

34:59 - Hi, good morning, we're almost off to noon.

35:01 I have like two three part question.

35:03 I wanted to know with diversity and inclusion,

35:06 since you've started your careers until now,

35:09 have things changed, gotten better?

35:12 Have your work environments become easier

35:14 or more like enjoyable for you guys?

35:17 Second part, with the industry being so stifled

35:21 and risk averse, do you find that it's everywhere?

35:24 Or do you find it's just in this country

35:25 and your career might have been a bit different

35:27 if you went elsewhere, pay wise and just environment wise

35:30 in your industries and your workplaces?

35:32 - So I guess that was the one question

35:35 about kind of the industry in terms of,

35:38 so maybe Nick, having kind of seen

35:40 that international landscape and you know, could.

35:43 - I thought you were gonna come to me

35:44 'cause you were saying I'm the oldest.

35:45 - I should talk about how the industry's changed.

35:48 I think for me, definitely the industry

35:51 has changed for the better.

35:52 It's not there yet, but it's definitely a lot better.

35:54 I mean, it helps the fact that I'm more senior now,

35:59 so I don't feel uncomfortable going into rooms.

36:02 And I mean, I've known Anika and I've known Stephen

36:05 for about 20 years, since we were very junior in the industry

36:09 and we've come up together.

36:10 So, you know, we've got teams now where we have people

36:14 in our teams that look like us.

36:16 So I think the industry is better in that sense,

36:20 but it's still got a way to go.

36:22 Talking about working internationally,

36:24 I think if you went to America,

36:27 there are heaps of opportunities.

36:29 That's just being honest.

36:30 You've heard actors say that all the time.

36:31 I think it's the same.

36:32 There's still issues there.

36:33 And I have many friends in the industry in the US

36:37 that have issues with working in the US,

36:39 especially you can quite easily get pigeonholed.

36:41 Oh, you make shows for BET

36:43 or the other black networks out there

36:44 and you don't get to make them for a mainstream network.

36:46 That's another issue.

36:47 But outside of the UK, actually,

36:50 I think we do fairly well, to be honest.

36:53 When you go to other countries,

36:55 most of the contacts that I meet with around Europe,

36:59 there's, I can think of a handful of people

37:04 that are not white in Europe.

37:07 There's one guy who people constantly called him Nick

37:13 or call me Bacal because we're the other guy.

37:16 I mean, he does look a little bit like me, to be fair.

37:17 We took a photo together.

37:18 But the point is that there's not a great deal

37:23 outside of the UK.

37:24 - Fantastic.

37:25 And she had a question about the kind of,

37:26 I guess, the inclusive culture in the workplace.

37:28 So I don't know which one of you feels comfortable

37:30 to answer that in terms of,

37:31 do you think the culture's changed in the workplace

37:34 since you started till now?

37:35 - Yeah, I mean, definitely.

37:37 I started as a runner

37:41 18, 20 years ago.

37:45 And it was similar to what Nick was saying.

37:50 I was the only Asian person on the set.

37:53 But actually, even so,

37:57 it was a very enjoyable place to work.

38:00 A lot of the people I worked with,

38:06 the senior level people,

38:08 were always there to help mentor me

38:12 and help me grow.

38:14 And I find that that is definitely the case now.

38:19 Everyone's so much more aware of the type of stories

38:24 and experiences that we need to tell in our shows.

38:28 It doesn't matter what it is.

38:30 We've just recently made a show called "Millionaire Hoarders"

38:34 and it's about experts from the antiques world

38:38 going into these massive castles

38:40 and looking for treasures and going on sell them.

38:44 And my bosses were very keen

38:49 to get diversity in our talent.

38:53 And we're like, "Oh, how are you gonna find people

38:57 "from the ethnic minority community who are into antiques?"

39:02 And you think that, but actually they're there

39:05 if you look for them.

39:06 And it's a very happy place basically at the moment.

39:11 Everyone wants diversity, everyone values it.

39:17 And everyone you work with recognises that now.

39:21 I think that's why I'd say it is a good place

39:25 to work right now.

39:28 I hope that answers your question.

39:30 It's gotten better, it's got much better.

39:32 And you can see that it's gonna lead to really good things

39:36 in the future, I think.

39:37 - Afternoon, good morning.

39:44 Quick question.

39:45 So you spoke about wanting to do new things

39:48 or commission or help commission new things.

39:51 What I wanna say is with probably a lot of the people

39:57 in the room, at least myself and my team,

39:59 we're creating new things that aren't seen on TV right now.

40:03 And obviously in our space, the audience is gonna be smaller

40:07 than in the white space, for instance.

40:10 So a lot of the challenge is how do you go from showing

40:14 that you've got, I don't know, a million views

40:16 versus the white creator that might have 5 million views?

40:19 How do you get that onto TV with it being new and different,

40:24 but having a smaller audience?

40:26 How do you persuade a commissioner to say,

40:29 let's take a chance on this, like "Dreaming Whilst Black,"

40:32 which is doing well now?

40:33 Like how do you, what's the route to get there?

40:35 - I think if you've got a million views,

40:39 you'll be able to get interest straight away.

40:41 I think the industry's changed for the better

40:44 in that sense from social media.

40:46 So I graduated from university and I go to interviews

40:49 and I think, oh yeah, they're gonna let me show my film

40:52 that no one, they didn't care.

40:54 Can you make tea and coffee?

40:55 That's all they cared about.

40:56 Now it's different.

40:57 People are kind of saying, well, can you shoot?

40:59 What have you shot?

41:00 Like they want to know those kinds of things about you.

41:02 And so many shows now, I mean, obviously I'm sure a lot

41:05 of you have seen "Insecure," which came from a web series,

41:07 "Dreaming Whilst Black" was a web series.

41:09 People just do nothing.

41:11 Commissioners are looking all the time

41:13 at what's online and what's popping.

41:15 We are, I am allowed to say this.

41:18 I'm sure it's been announced.

41:19 Yes.

41:20 And I've just now forgotten the title.

41:23 Blue therapy, there we go, thank you.

41:25 Blue therapy, which you'll probably all have seen

41:27 on YouTube, that's now come into E4.

41:30 That's a show that we're gonna be distributing

41:33 and we're working with the producers on that.

41:36 I don't think that show could have been,

41:38 it would have been hard to commission that show

41:40 if you'd just gone, I've got this idea and got it in a room,

41:42 but you can go, hold on, we've got this audience online.

41:47 And if you can show that it's popular

41:49 from just building it yourself on a YouTube platform,

41:52 then imagine when you put it, that's gonna go straight

41:54 into the living room of the whole country.

41:56 Yeah, I think doing stuff online and having an audience,

41:59 even if it's not millions, shows that you've got something.

42:02 Yeah.

42:03 - Hello, everyone.

42:13 My name's Ramel.

42:14 I'm a TV and radio presenter,

42:16 and I'm kind of piggybacking off of your question

42:19 'cause the numbers game is a real thing right now.

42:21 And as much as, again, like web series, dramas,

42:26 all that kind of stuff, isn't so much based of numbers.

42:29 It's just like, it's good, it's a good show.

42:31 I found as a broadcaster, I'm still being asked,

42:35 so how many followers do you have?

42:37 And I'm like, guys, I've been doing this

42:39 for at least like 10 plus years.

42:42 I'm still considered new talent.

42:45 And there is a lack of understanding

42:49 of how to develop new talent in this country, in my opinion,

42:53 especially as a black woman.

42:54 So my question is, how can the industry support new talent

42:59 in that development process without looking at socials,

43:04 without looking at, you know, like, are they,

43:07 or are you open to looking at your CV over your numbers?

43:12 - I think that's a really good point.

43:19 And again, it links back to what I was saying

43:20 about the industry being risk averse.

43:23 There's two gentlemen at the front here

43:25 that was just having a very similar conversation.

43:27 For me, new talent doesn't mean young talent.

43:29 New talent is people that we haven't seen before.

43:32 It doesn't matter how old they are,

43:34 people that need a chance to break through.

43:36 And I'm really passionate about working with new talent.

43:39 I totally understand what you're saying, Ramelle.

43:41 Like, we need to stop booking the same people on our shows,

43:46 the same TV presenters get booked on all our shows.

43:48 Oh, you go into, I don't work directly with commissioners

43:53 in terms of doing the development things,

43:54 but I know as a producer, let's get a talent list together.

43:59 Oh, will Davina do it?

44:00 Will Claudia do it?

44:01 Will Dermot do it?

44:02 It's the same names over and over again.

44:04 And there's a real problem, I think,

44:05 in terms of trying to break new talent,

44:08 because that risk averse thing,

44:11 oh, Mo's done really well, can we get Mo to do this?

44:14 I was working with somebody recently,

44:16 and they were a relatively small production,

44:19 and they had an idea, which was a really good idea.

44:22 And the names that the commissioners

44:24 were asking them to get were ridiculous,

44:27 because this is a small show with a very big budget,

44:30 you want Stormzy.

44:32 Stormzy ain't doing your show, do you know what I mean?

44:34 You need to try and act accordingly to your budgets

44:37 and build a brand and a show based on the idea,

44:42 and that's the perfect space to launch new talent,

44:46 rather than trying to go, let's try and get Stormzy,

44:48 and then when Stormzy won't do it,

44:49 you're left scrabbling around,

44:50 and nobody's actually happy to say, this is our show,

44:53 we know our level, let's try and build it on this,

44:55 and then by time, I'm sure, correct me if I'm wrong,

44:58 a show like Who Do You Think You Are, right?

45:00 That didn't start with the big A-list talent.

45:02 It started, it's a great show,

45:03 but it started with good names,

45:07 and then it built up to the greatest names,

45:09 so we've just got to understand

45:11 that you can't be a 10 straight away.

45:13 Some ideas are gonna pop and go straight away,

45:14 but you have to give opportunities to smaller talent,

45:19 people who have been working, have been grafting,

45:21 but haven't had the opportunities yet,

45:23 and you give them the opportunities,

45:24 and then they begin to flourish,

45:26 so yeah, I think that's a point

45:28 that commissioners should really look into and go,

45:31 and producers as well, when we're doing talent lists,

45:33 we should fight for people who we think are good,

45:35 not just people who we think are already famous.

45:38 (audience applauding)

45:44 - What's the best way to pitch and contact you guys

45:47 regarding ideas and stuff?

45:48 - Email me, yeah.

45:54 Find me on Instagram. - What's the best way?

45:56 - I'm on all the social media

45:58 with a very easy, accessible handle,

46:03 Stephen Yemma, you know, but just go on websites.

46:05 Go on websites, go and find,

46:07 like if websites always have people

46:09 that are listed on their companies,

46:11 and companies' email formats are really very easy to decipher,

46:15 so just get in touch with people,

46:18 and like people were saying, look through credits.

46:21 - I have a question, though,

46:23 'cause you say email you and things,

46:25 but when people email people just generally working in TV,

46:29 are they gonna look at their ideas?

46:31 Are you gonna meet with them?

46:34 - So I'd like to come back on that one,

46:35 'cause I think that you just need to be smart

46:38 in the first sense, 'cause I get emailed a lot

46:41 of times by people, and I try and get back to people,

46:44 but sometimes it's a lot.

46:46 But when I don't get back to people,

46:49 and I purposely don't get back to them,

46:50 is when they have taken no time to know what I do

46:53 and what kind of stuff I work in.

46:57 If you're saying, can I send you a scripted project,

47:00 to be able to say, I've got this script,

47:01 or sending me scripts, I don't work in that area.

47:04 You're sending it to completely the wrong person.

47:06 You know nothing about me.

47:08 First thing to do, work out what your idea is,

47:11 and then go, okay, what kind of company

47:14 would I like to be making that idea?

47:16 Who makes the shows in this kind of area?

47:18 Do a bit of research on that.

47:20 Then who are the people that have produced those shows,

47:22 then approach them.

47:23 If someone sent me an email and said,

47:26 Nick, I was at the talk today, I heard what you said,

47:29 this is my show, I know it's not for you,

47:31 but could you give me advice who I should,

47:33 I'd happily try and help with that,

47:35 but it's just when people have put no effort in at all,

47:37 and they just spam out 100 people,

47:39 I don't have time for that.

47:40 Put some effort in first, I think that's a key thing.

47:42 Sorry, I got a bit passionate about that.

47:43 You can see I've got a lot of emails in my box from people.

47:46 (laughing)

47:47 - I don't know how much, 'cause I can see a few more hands,

47:49 so I just, we've got time for one more.

47:52 So make it a good one, whoever's last.

47:55 - Hello, my name's Nyko Bain.

48:02 I just wanted to kind of ask,

48:04 because I was listening to everybody's information

48:07 and what they was doing,

48:08 I've currently put out my own mini movie on YouTube,

48:12 and it has a mass, 550,000 views

48:15 within about a month or two months,

48:17 but I'm a little bit confused,

48:19 where would I need to go from then on?

48:22 Because obviously it's coming out of my pocket

48:25 and the team that I'm working with,

48:27 it's already getting everything from Gen Z,

48:30 we've created a deck and everything else,

48:32 so I've done everything what I could possibly do,

48:35 but I'm just a bit kind of stuck.

48:37 Like even me, I'm passionate to do the part two

48:41 and create more, but I just need to know

48:43 where I would go, like realistically.

48:46 - I think the first question you need to know

48:48 is what you want to do.

48:49 So is it a calling card because you're a director

48:52 and you wanna get directing gigs

48:54 and you wanna get paid to direct?

48:55 Is it that you're a writer

48:56 and you wanna get writing gigs?

48:57 Is it that you wanna now make,

49:01 you know, get a million, two million budget

49:03 to make this as a big movie?

49:05 Is it that you wanna get what you've already made on TV?

49:08 I think first of all, working out what it is that you want,

49:11 then it's easier to work out

49:13 where you need to go from there.

49:15 'Cause at the moment, you've made a movie,

49:16 I mean, that's amazing, seriously,

49:18 to get 500,000 views in a month, that's fantastic.

49:21 That shows that obviously you've done something that's good,

49:24 but what do you want from it?

49:25 I think that's the question,

49:26 so I'm throwing the question back at you.

49:28 (audience member speaking faintly)

49:33 - So it sounds like you maybe need

49:35 kind of a bit of a mentor in the industry

49:37 just to help guide you to understand where to go next.

49:40 And also as well,

49:41 there are different opportunities in the industry.

49:43 It's like next week, Nick and I,

49:44 I'm not sure if any of the rest of you

49:45 are going to Edinburgh TV Festival,

49:46 but they have kind of a scheme called the network

49:49 and also ones to watch where you can apply

49:51 and then you get a free pass to go up

49:53 to Edinburgh TV Festival,

49:54 you get to hear what's happening in the TV industry.

49:57 So it's like this, but also,

49:59 kind of on a bigger scale with the commissioners

50:01 and different people from, you know,

50:04 different broadcasters and people flying in internationally.

50:06 So again, it's kind of just good

50:07 to kind of be in places like this

50:09 and Edinburgh to kind of network, to mix and mingle

50:12 and to kind of find those contacts

50:13 to help you kind of understand where it is that you go next.

50:16 But I know we've got a wrap up now,

50:17 so can we just give our wonderful panel a round of applause?

50:20 (audience applauding)

50:23 Fantastic.

50:24 And also just to say on the fourth floor,

50:26 we have a very special guest,

50:28 so I just want to say on the fourth floor,

50:30 we have a free or free media company,

50:33 so Studio Lambert and Raw TV

50:35 and all free media are up there with the kind of like desk

50:39 so they can kind of give you advice and guidance

50:40 as to what those are doing as labels.

50:43 So please do go up there and speak to them

50:45 and I'm sure hopefully our wonderful panel

50:47 will be able to kind of stay

50:48 and answer a few questions for you as well.

50:50 So thank you.

50:51 (applause)

50:53 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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