Yourcinemafilms.com | Critically-acclaimed director Tomisin Adepeju (Appreciation, Journey Mercies) shares how life has changed since being signed and finally working on his feature with Ken Loach's Sixteen Films!
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Follow us on socials:
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Twitter: @yourcinemafilms
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00:00Now, everyone's making it in film and TV but we don't really know how. Here, we uncover
00:07the truth. Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:12Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast where we explore the truth about film, TV and theatre
00:18and hear it directly from those who are smashing it in their areas. Today, we've got one
00:24of the most talented directors I know. He's absolutely passionate about films and I remember
00:31last time we spoke, he said he watches a film a day and we can see the influences and the
00:39effects of that in his work. For me, and I'm sure many others, but I know for me personally,
00:46he has made what I would probably consider the most beautiful short that I've ever seen
00:54in his short film Appreciation. And yeah, I've always been excited about his journey
01:00and his career because I feel like, you know, God has made him one of the greats. So I introduce
01:06to you guys, Thomason Adepaju. What's going on, bro?
01:11Really well, my brother, really, really well. So thank you so much for that introduction.
01:15Thank you so much. Yeah, it's nice to be back here again after our last session seven
01:20years ago, I think, seven, eight years ago. We're older and wiser, hopefully, you know.
01:27Indeed! Now, I know, so last time we caught up, we touched on like a lot of, you know,
01:36your journey up to that point. But I do want to pick up from around about maybe a year
01:43or two after, right, specifically when you did Appreciation, because it seems like that
01:52was like a pivotal piece of work for you. At least from the outside, in terms of like
01:59the quality of it, the accolades and certain festivals it got accepted into. So I want
02:06to kind of unpick and know what life was like for you around the time that you did Appreciation.
02:14Oh, wow. Yeah, so that was 2018. I shot the film 2018, I recall. And it came out, I think,
02:23probably 2019. So yeah, the film is interesting, because the journey of the film was fairly long,
02:30a long one, you know, writing the film took, I would say, I wrote it in, I think, one hour,
02:35but the actual writing process took sort of three, four years in just the idea stage. And then,
02:42and then realizing what I wanted to say, and why I actually wanted to say it in the way that I
02:47wanted to say it. And so that took about three years, because I had the idea. And then it changed
02:54over time as well. And then once I knew what the theme was, I wanted to explore, because Appreciation,
03:02you know, for those that haven't seen the film, it's a film that explores grief and loss. And
03:08it's anchored around a pastor who loses her faith when her son is killed, effectively. And
03:17the film, it's life, sort of, it was originally at first about a son who loses his mom. So that was
03:26what it was anchored on at first. But then I just realized it just wasn't quite right for me. It
03:31just wasn't working. And, and I think I read an article, actually, in 20 sort of March, March,
03:40May 2017. And that article was really what I think inspired the form that it took. So this article,
03:48it was about this young man who was killed, he was killed on his way home from church.
03:54He was just walking home. And the tragedy of it is, not only was he killed on his way home from
03:59church, he was killed in front of his mother. So she witnessed that the whole thing, which is
04:05really tragic. And, and the article though, which was on the Metro, the boy's name wasn't there.
04:15There was nothing really that dehumanized him. You know, it was, he was really
04:21articulated as a stat, just one more black boy killed. I think they said how old he was,
04:27he was 27 years old. But his name wasn't there. He was almost sort of faceless. And it was so
04:34tragic. But I was so moved by this, because I was around the same age at the time when I read that,
04:39that article. And he lived fairly close to me as well. And I thought, wow, this could have been me.
04:45And then it became even more tragic when I learned that the boy was simply at the wrong place at the
04:49wrong time. You know, these four guys that rushed him, I thought it was somebody else. And his life
04:56was just a case of mistaken identity. And I thought that's such a horrible way to go in a
05:02sense. And, and I was so inspired by what I read, I thought, let me look into this deeper. And I
05:09found an interview with his mother. She did an interview for BBC News. I think it was news night,
05:167.30pm. And it was a nine year old woman, and probably in her late 50s. And she had just lost
05:24her son a few days ago. But she embodied so much strength that was so moving. She was there. You
05:31know, all this lights were on her face, and she just carried herself so well. Because despite the
05:38immeasurable grief she was going through, there was this poise that she embodied. She was obviously,
05:45she was she wanted to cry, but she was holding back the tears. And all she said was, you know,
05:50my son was not a gangster. He was not this, you know, he had just, you know, he has, you know,
05:56he just got in his master's programme done. My son had plans, he had dreams. And then she
06:04appealed to anybody who knew about, you know, who these men were that that killed her son.
06:09But there was something about seeing that interview with her that really made me realise
06:13what my film was going to be about, which is really about a Nigerian mother who mourns
06:18the loss of a son. So that was what I had then, but then which disrupted the narrative I had
06:23before, which was going to be about a son who loses his mother. But she was just incredible.
06:29And her grace and power was, yeah, so profound. And then writing that took them two years,
06:37just trying to work out, okay, you know, at what point do we meet her in a story? And, and then
06:43as a man of faith, I thought it would be more compelling to have her be a pastor of a church.
06:48Because then that way, I could explore themes around not just grief and loss, but
06:54filter that through the lens of a pastor who questions why a God she loves would take
07:02everything she loves. How can you serve a God that takes everything you love? I mean,
07:08and that was the question that really inspired the film. So I had the idea. And then once I knew
07:13exactly what I wanted to say with it, once I knew what all the beats were in the story, I wrote it
07:17in one hour. I wrote it literally August 2018. I think August 6th or 7th. And once I knew it,
07:27I had met back then a young DOP called Olan Kolade. You know, he's now big time, you know,
07:34but I met him, we had a coffee a few, a few weeks back. And I told him, you know, because, you know,
07:40he wanted to work on something together. He had seen my previous short films. And he was just
07:45like, you know, I love your work. And I'd also seen his work, and I thought it was beautiful.
07:50And I really wanted to work with him. So and I said, you know what, I might reach out for a
07:53project. I'm not sure. Because at that point, I had not written Appreciation yet. So yeah,
07:59but once I wrote it, I just thought I need to make this quickly. Right. So I, I had a WhatsApp
08:05to him, I texted him or called him and said, you know, okay, I've got the short film, I've just
08:09written it to first draft, but I think it's ready. Are you interested in shooting this at the end of
08:14the month? So we're talking this is three and a half weeks. And he was just like, yeah, okay,
08:20cool. He hadn't read the script. I gave him like a rough outline. But it was a Yeah, send it to me.
08:25I'm free. And I'm like, damn, this, you know, there's something about because his passion and
08:30his energy. I was like, great. So I've got a DOP now. So let me now try and get a crew together.
08:35And yeah, we got the crew together in three and a half weeks. You know, true Orlan we got on
08:40art director. And then I just utilize a lot of my friends to work on the film. I had
08:49two great producers on a film, a guy called Tony Long, incredible, you know, incredible guy,
08:56and early incredible producer as well. So we just went on it. We just Yeah, we made the film and
09:03the film was Yeah, I didn't have any money for it. So it was mostly savings. And, you know,
09:09my church gave me like 2000 pounds. Friends chipped in, my parents gave me some money,
09:16I use a lot of my savings. And it was actually shot in my church, because I thought, I don't
09:21have to pay for the space, right? It's my church. And what I did was I got the all the extras in it
09:26were church members as well. Most of the extras were church members. And we shot it in two and a
09:30half days at the end of August. And yeah, you know, and it was just, you always know when you
09:36write something that and it works, you just know that all you need is to get a good enough team to
09:42realize what's on the page. But it just felt so personal to me. And I thought it was a very
09:47timely story. And working with all and I think definitely changed and transform my voice as a
09:54filmmaker because when you work with an artist who understands his craft, you are so deeply
10:00inspired by them. He challenged me, pushed me and, and it's, I always say this the first time
10:06where I had an idea to make a film and the film turned out pretty much close to what I imagined,
10:12because in most cases, it's always 60%. It's never quite as you imagine it, but with appreciation,
10:17it really was and I thought, damn, it should always be like this. Why isn't it always like
10:21this? But I realized that it was never like this because you don't work with people that perhaps
10:25understand what you're trying to make or you're on different pages, right? But on appreciation,
10:30we're just all on the same page. And, you know, it was like 10, 11k, it cost me altogether. And
10:36yeah, but it's mostly a film in one location, you know, really, the church is the
10:44sort of central arc of the film. And we see a, we see a character who is forced to navigate
10:52one of the most traumatic times in her life. So, so yeah, so I made a film and, you know,
10:59I went to festivals one year later and, you know, played some festivals and that, that was really
11:03what I think after making that was when I got signed, you know, here and, and yeah, so it
11:09definitely, definitely helped massively, you know. I love that. And it's such a beautiful film, man,
11:15like hearing that, like, wow, like you're an, you're an artist, artist, you know, like you had
11:24the idea, you stewed on it for three, four years, and then you were moved. And then it's, it's,
11:31yeah, it's, it just makes sense. Because you post, like, it might look random to certain people,
11:39but you post loads of, like, archived images and, like, films that you watch. But the passion
11:46behind when you're explaining why you like certain films is, like, the way you watch films, like,
11:55yeah, it is like, yeah, it's like, you know, it gets poured out when you then make certain.
12:05Oh, thank you so much, man. I think I always just say this as I, you know, my watching habits has
12:10definitely sort of shaped the films I make. And I think it's important to watch, you know, and
12:17I only realised the importance of it, I think, after leaving film school, because in film school,
12:21there were a lot of films that were being quoted, but I just not seen it. And I thought,
12:26as somebody who wants to make films, you have to understand the history and language of the craft,
12:31especially as a film director. There's so much that I've learned just in the past four or five
12:36years of just watching films relentlessly. But also watching it, seeing it as it's work. It's
12:42a craft. I'm learning about these classic films. And yeah, so I have to watch regularly. It's,
12:51yeah, it's like a baker who doesn't bake or who doesn't immerse himself in recipes,
12:58or it's like an artist who doesn't go to exhibitions or a writer who doesn't read.
13:04It doesn't, a filmmaker that doesn't watch it. I don't understand it. I think for me, I just see it
13:09as, for me, it's like breathing. I know it sounds intense, but it's like breathing. I feel strange
13:14if I don't, if I go a week without seeing a film, at least three or four films. It's almost like
13:21I'm watching these films and it's subconsciously being stored somewhere. So when I make films,
13:29I don't just think, oh, I want to make a film like that film I saw. It just comes out naturally. And
13:34without you realising, your taste and your voice becomes profoundly shaped by what you see.
13:41But I make it a case in point to watch everything. So I don't just watch
13:45classic cinema or like, you know, Ozu or, you know, Cardrea or Tarkovsky. I watch, you know,
13:53Marvel films. I watch everything, you know, good or bad, because you have to just take,
13:56and then you filter in the stuff that is good for you and you remove the stuff that doesn't work for
14:01you, you know? I'm learning. You should teach. So appreciation has come out, right? What happened
14:11after? Like what, like in that, in that space of time, let's say two years, two to five years after
14:19appreciation, what were your plans and versus what actually happened? Yeah, it's a good question
14:26because I had no expectations about the film. I just was so happy that the film worked and people
14:32liked it. And, you know, because interestingly, I'd made a film before appreciation that got into
14:37Sundance, a film called The Right Choice. You know, it got into that festival. And I thought
14:44after getting into that festival, everything will happen. I'll get signed and people will be sort of
14:50emailing me, Tom says, what are you doing next? But it didn't quite happen in that way. And nothing
14:54really happened after that Sundance short. And I realised that because I didn't write the film,
15:00it was a film that I was approached to direct. And it was a sort of sci-fi Black Mirror type short.
15:08But with appreciation, you know, I got signed to my UK agency, because he saw the trailer and then
15:15reached out to me and said, Oh, I love this film. And, and then he'd seen my earlier work,
15:20you know, that made and I realised that appreciation was the combination really of
15:25a lot of my short film work. And, yeah, so what happened was, yeah, I got into festivals,
15:30you know, I got into BFI Film Festival, which is a festival that I really loved. And
15:34yeah, a lot of festivals and festivals that had rejected me sort of accepted me. So I thought,
15:39this is a good sign, you know, was turned down years ago with all these films, but now I'm being
15:44accepted in these films. So, you know, and then I did a lot of schemes, like I did network at LFF,
15:51it's a great scheme, which is brilliant. I did the Edinburgh Talent Lab as well, at the festival in
15:5620, I think 2019, I did that. So I just did a lot of things and everything was going, it was buzzing,
16:02it was great. I was, I was being booked meetings with my agents. And naturally, I thought it's got
16:08to be a feature now. That's the next step. So hold on, right? Yeah. Actually, what was it like
16:16getting signed? Like what was the experience of cool, you get signed, what then happens? What
16:22changes? Um, a lot changed, but also a lot didn't change, you know, funny, it's good to be signed.
16:29It's definitely helped me because I think agents, they have a secret WhatsApp group or something,
16:35a secret email link where they have all the contacts for all the production companies that
16:39you have to meet. So I think that being signed allowed me access to have meetings with, you know,
16:47people like Film4, BBC Films and BFI, you know, and, but also other companies that are making
16:55films. So my agent definitely gave me that access, but also, you know, it looks good as well. You
16:59know, you're, you're with this person, they rep you and they support you. So it was good having that.
17:06Um, but really not much really changed as well, because it's like, yeah, I was getting these
17:12meetings, but it wasn't translated into paid work, you know, so it's good to have meetings. But yeah,
17:18sometimes you just keep meeting people and you're like, okay, you're going to offer me something,
17:23you know, yeah, yeah. What does also helps with having agents is you can get seen for
17:27directing TV work, which I was seen for a lot of that as well. You know, interviews I wouldn't,
17:32I wouldn't have gotten if I didn't have an agent. So in that sense, it was quite useful to,
17:38to have, you know, an agent. But in terms of what changed, not a lot, because I was kind of still,
17:46I wouldn't say hustling, but I was still sort of navigating this space feeling like
17:51an outsider, which is a strange feeling. You feel like you're not quite accepted and people
17:58love your work, but they're not saying, right, okay, you know, do you want to make a feature
18:03here's 1.5 mil, here's 2 mil, or let's develop your, your idea. But saying that I, so when I
18:10made that decision, then I got signed, the next conversation with my agent was, okay,
18:15you know, what feature do you want to make? And I was going to make a film I made
18:18called The Good Son. I was going to make that into a feature. Yeah. And, but then I realised,
18:24yeah, that would have been great. But then I realised now it wasn't really, sometimes you
18:29force features and that was forced. It just, the script I wrote was just a long, short film,
18:35effectively. So yeah, which was humbling, because I did spend three, four years on that script. And
18:40I think it's good to, I'm so blessed that I didn't make the film because it wouldn't have been good,
18:47because it just, I was forcing it. I was wanting to, everyone kept saying, wow, this will make a
18:51great feature. But you have to understand sometimes what type of work or form a project should take.
18:57And with that short, that film, it was a short film. It really, its life wouldn't have been
19:03improved in any way if it was a feature film. So, so that, that idea was rested. So I didn't
19:09really have any other ideas. And yeah, I didn't really have any, any other ideas. And, but I was
19:16just taking meetings, a lot of meetings, and they were great. But then COVID happened in 2020.
19:23And that was, I think, for a lot of artists, regardless of any of the medium you're practising,
19:29it was hard because everything really shut down for a year and a bit. So from 2020, I went into
19:36a state of, I just basically watched more films. I just was kind of, just felt a sense of restlessness,
19:45which we all felt, you know. And in that time, I created a podcast called The Directing Lens,
19:50which was really cool. What I did was in that time, I, I wrote a script with my good friend,
19:58a guy called Paris Zasila. Paris made a film called The Raging Grace, which came out actually
20:06last year. And Raging Grace is, it's a powerful feature film. And it actually played south by
20:12South West and won two big prizes there. But Paris and I, we linked up by a scheme we did
20:21at the BFI in 2019. And then in lockdown, we just, you know, we were both interviewed for the BFI
20:28network scheme online. And after that, we just got to chatting. And Paris was like, what are you doing?
20:33I'm like, I don't know. And then he's like, Oh, I've got a feature script, Raging Grace that I
20:38want to write. And then in that time, I just, Appreciation as a feature never crossed my mind,
20:46really, it was always going to be a short. But Appreciation is a very spiritual film. And I
20:52think I had a spiritual experience that made me realise how I could make the short work
20:58as a feature. And that feature became The Light of the Living, which is what I'm currently
21:02working on now with Jack O'Brien at Sixteen Films. So yeah, so that became The Light of
21:10the Living. But I had the idea during lockdown. And it was really a spiritual experience. I think
21:15I say God just planted the idea in my head and gave me the vision. And I wrote it with Paris,
21:22we both, so he was writing Raging Grace, I was writing mine. And in a span of four months,
21:26we would send each other drafts of our scripts, he would read 10 pages, you know, and I wrote from 1am
21:32to 4am over a period of three, four months. And it was incredible, because, you know, I wasn't
21:37working, I was at home. And I just, I felt so restless that I think writing the script definitely
21:42helped me. Because even prior to that time, I was watching a film a day I was going I was going at
21:48it. And that's when I spoke with you, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I gained so much
21:52weight because I was just eating chocolates and sweets. And I gained weight. My dad was just like,
21:57look at yourself. Because I wasn't healthy. Because imagine you're watching films,
22:02you're not really moving. So you're still and then you're eating unhealthily. And but when I
22:08started writing the feature, I just found my habits changed. I, you know, I had a purpose,
22:13I could get up and, you know, research. And, you know, I interviewed my mother, who's a pastor,
22:20I interviewed a lot of pastors, and I did research into just translating a short into a feature is
22:28it's a completely different language entirely. And I had to unlearn a lot of my short film habits.
22:34Because with short films, there's really one beat, you're trying to culminate the action in one beat
22:40one moment. But with a feature film, you know, Act One, Act Two, you know, turning point Act Three,
22:46like there's a lot of, you know, so I read a lot of books and watched a lot more films even more.
22:52Yeah, and I wrote I had a first draft of the script by the end of 2020. So yeah.
23:01So you've, you've got the you've got the script ready, right? This opportunities come about,
23:10what was what what's the process now in terms of like, from from the script being ready all the
23:19way to, you know, you're on set that development process in between? What's that looking like for
23:25you right now? It's different for everybody, you know, it depends if your film is with,
23:30if you're developing, you're developing your film with BBC Films, or if you're doing it with BFI,
23:35or with Film Four, it's a different process. And I think the process there is no, just like making
23:41films and being an artist, there's no one way of doing anything. And that's one of the beauty,
23:46but equally the challenges of being a filmmaker is, I wish there was a manual, some kind of a,
23:52you know, if you want to become a lawyer, there's a very clear pathway, right? You want to become
23:58a doctor, you can't skip certain pathways, like it's a very specific process. When you want to
24:04become a writer or a film director, there is no process. And when you're developing a feature,
24:09there is no process because the process is dependent on where you're developing it,
24:14who you're with, but also how hot you are. Are you, is your name being mentioned on people's
24:20lips? Or are you trending? You know, there's a lot of factors involved in that process. And with mine,
24:28my name wasn't trending, you know, I wasn't really hot on anyone's lips. So it was kind of just,
24:34yeah, so I'd had a script 2020. I just try to get it sent out there, you know.
24:41Um, and thankfully I had the short film Appreciation. I was like, okay, I'm making a
24:47feature version of the script. And people were like, wow, beautiful short, but maybe you should
24:52make one more short. And I'm just like, um, but you know, Appreciation is like my fifth short.
25:00Do I really need to make one more short? I mean, they're like, yeah. So people loved,
25:05so people that read the script, feature script thought it was beautiful, but they were just like,
25:10I don't know. They just felt that I should make one more short. It was either that, or it just
25:15wasn't maybe right for them, which is fine. You know? So there was just a lot of challenges.
25:20But what, what, what, you know, did they give context as to why? Just in case I'm missing
25:26something.
25:27I think because also, you know, I was going out to people in 2021. Appreciation came out 2019,
25:34like it's three, two, three years, you know, you're not, you're not, um, it's so strange
25:40because it's not, it's a long time in a film world. It's like two years. In that time, there's
25:45newer shorts, there's newer people that are being spoken about. So, so you're-
25:51So they felt that maybe you need more experience, like get another one under your belt so we can
25:57trust you with the money.
25:59Exactly. But, but also a more ambitious short. So Appreciation was a 10, 11k short. They felt
26:05maybe a 30, 40k short, something a bit more. Yeah. You know, yeah. The means I was having,
26:13it was like, perhaps if you made something that was 40, 50k to that way, it's a natural
26:19progression from doing that to them doing your first feature film. So that was really the
26:23conversations. But it varied, man. It varied from the people I spoke to, like, some said,
26:29yeah, perhaps if you do, um, you know, one more short or the features just wasn't right for them,
26:35maybe. Because, because I, my feature is about a common of age film about a woman in her late
26:4340s. It's a very specific theme and subject matter. So ultimately, you have to develop your
26:51film with a platform that really believes in that and believes that, you know, this narrative
26:56is commercial enough, or is it outhouse enough? So there's a lot of conversations and questions
27:00that are had. So it's hard to pinpoint exactly what, yeah, but that's the nature of this industry.
27:07You know, there is no rational explanation. Sometimes you just have to, yeah, accept,
27:14you know, accept what's going on, but also do what you can do. So I was being proactive.
27:21In that period, you know, and I was thinking, maybe I do I do one more short film, you know,
27:27but I was getting meetings, my agent was getting me meetings with everybody,
27:30which was really good as well. So yeah, it's a very strange time, I think,
27:35around that point. Because I guess I am Joseph, that is like, yeah, that's not
27:42your, like, it's not like with I am Joseph, that's not your, it's not your, it's not the
27:51kind of short film that you can kind of make with what you have around you. Like, you know, like,
27:58with appreciation, it's very real life and certain things are accessible, right? But with I am Joseph,
28:06it's like, no, you're gonna have to get a specific type of costume, you have to shoot in the woods,
28:12like, there's a bit, there's a lot more around it. So I think, when I, like, I know you're capable
28:20anyway, but I feel like even just those two shorts, Appreciation and I am Joseph, it's like,
28:26nah, you're quite competent. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, that was quite surprising. But
28:31I guess, yeah, each to their own in it. Everyone's process is different, you know,
28:35and with I am Joseph, it's a period drama. So it's set sort of 40s, 50s. So yeah, but I think
28:44people have what they're looking for. And if you don't perhaps fit into that mode, you know,
28:49then you and if you want to get your work made, you have to perhaps do what they want, you know,
28:54it's the nature of the industry. And yeah, and I think that's what makes me very excited about it,
29:01but also sometimes frustrated about it, because, you know, I love film so much, but
29:07we're working in a system that certain things are required to make your film. And, you know, I mean,
29:15Raging Grace, I mentioned that film, because Paris has made a film. And when he told me that
29:19he found funding to make the film, it was really wonderful, you know, the fact that he could make
29:24the film, because he also found it difficult, you know, for the first year to find funding,
29:29but then he shot it, you know, I think he found multiple source of income. He was just very
29:36proactive and intentional about how he went about trying to find money. And that's kind of what I'm
29:42also doing as well. You can't just rely on the same sources that every British filmmaker is going
29:48to get the same money from like, there's only so many films that can be made. So I do understand
29:52that as well. That you have to Yeah, there's only so much they can make. So no, it doesn't matter
29:58how good you are. There's so many talented filmmakers. And there's the breadth of films
30:03coming from like film school, people like NFTS and, you know, LFS, Met Film School, so many
30:10talented films every year. So yes, it's difficult to find films, you know, in this country.
30:17No, I love that. Thank you for the insight. Now, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you something, right?
30:23On a deeper level, and it was basically like, for me, I've, I've always seen like, you,
30:33Kobi, Ajani and Cornelius as like the rat pack, you know, like the Sammy Davison. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:43In terms of like the wave of and the timings of when you guys were making like significant,
30:49pivotal pieces of work, right? And it's like, everyone's doing great in their own way. But
30:58I was catching up with Remy, Remy Moses the other day, and he mentioned just about,
31:05like feeling pressure from from when your peers are doing well while celebrating them, but maybe
31:13feeling like you're not doing enough. I wanted to ask, like, have you, have you experienced that,
31:21like in in the past years? Maybe not now. But like, in that time where your, you know,
31:28appreciations come out, and it's like, Oh, maybe it will lead to this. And it's like, Oh,
31:34yeah. Oh, yeah. Most definitely. I think, you know, we're humans, you know, and I think that
31:40we're filmmaking is very emotional experience. It's deeply emotional. And yeah, sometimes when
31:47you see your peers doing well, it's a mixture of I think elation for them, but also frustration for
31:52you. Because not to sort of dampen their, their, their shine or to, you know, just, I think you're
32:01not, you're happy for them, definitely. But you're just unhappy for you, you know, because you're
32:07like, they're eating, they're doing well, and they're getting this love. And all you want is
32:12the opportunity to be seen and to be appreciated. That's what we really want. And we don't want to
32:18get the acclaiming, you know, ahead of anybody else, or we don't want to, you know, me personally,
32:23anyway, I don't want to jump past people or, you know, because I'm doing well, Kobi can't do well,
32:28because I'm doing well, Ajani can't do well. No, I want all of us to do well. And we can all do well.
32:33But definitely in the, you know, in those in that period, where appreciation came out, and, you know,
32:40post COVID, it was just frustrating, you know, you question your purpose, you're like,
32:48am I really meant to do this, you know, because I'm good at other things, and not to just sound
32:53egotistical. And I think my parents always say that, you know, well, my dad specifically says,
32:57Thomas, you're, you're good at other things, you know, that so you, yes, you can make films,
33:01but you're so much, there's so much skills you have. And he's right, like, there's so much.
33:07There are other things I can do. But this is the only thing I want to do, really. So it's,
33:14it's just what I feel I have been born to do. So it's just not, I can't not do it. It's not like a,
33:21oh, it's optional. Like this is something I think I feel deeply. So that's when it that's why it
33:26hurts so much when you just don't get the, the love you feel you have worked for the the acclaim,
33:34the appreciation, all you all we want really is a chance to be seen our work to, to have value,
33:41because we don't make the work to sit on our laptops, we make the work to have an audience
33:46to have a platform. And unfortunately, for a lot of filmmakers, and you know, with how difficult
33:52and expensive festivals are, it's so tough just to get the work seen and loved. And when acquisition
33:59got the love, I thought, okay, this will translate to perhaps more, I just wanted to make more films,
34:06right. And it was difficult to really do that. So yeah, I'm blessed now that I, you know, I've,
34:13I've got those brothers around me. So Corby, you know, Corby's been doing sort of immensely well.
34:17And every time I see that it just, there's a joy that I can't explain, because his success is my
34:22success. Because we talk about everything, you know, you know, he even called me yesterday. And
34:27he, you know, for over an hour, we talked about God, we talked about films, we talked about our
34:32features, purpose, like every time I leave the call with Corby, I feel challenged, I,
34:38I feel deeply inspired. Same thing with Mr. Salmon. Yeah, you know, Dreaming Whilst Black is
34:47sort of incredible, you know, I worked on the web series with him. And to see the love that
34:52the first season has been having is so well deserved. But, but I know how hard he's worked
34:57for it. I know how many drafts he wrote for it. I know that the frustration, the tears, the
35:05just, it's, it's a long process. And no one really sees that, you know, so same thing with
35:11Mr. Walker, you know, Cornelius, he's, you know, I've seen his journey too,
35:19and how challenging it's been. But, you know, we're now in a place where we are getting
35:24slowly but surely the love that I think we feel we have worked for. And it's just beautiful to
35:30see. But also, there's a breadth of filmmakers, you know, Remy Moses, I mean, Remy's film Saving
35:36Art is, yeah, beautiful film. And, you know, and, you know, he went to LFS. Now he's got an award
35:43winning grad film. And, you know, Remy, somebody who I think has been in the game for a long time,
35:49like I've never seen his shorts, like six, seven years ago. He's made different types of shorts,
35:54different genres. But he has such a distant voice that is really imbued in every work he's done and
36:02to see his journey now. And yeah, it's exciting. Very exciting.
36:07I love that. I love that. So given the point you're at now, your new feature,
36:16what would you say are like, what can we look forward to from you moving forward?
36:23I don't want to speak too soon, because it's like, it's things are happening. But you're like,
36:28yeah, you're always very cautious. You're kind of like, nothing is really locked in stone.
36:34I always just say, I think I saw somewhere, there's a friend of mine, Liam White,
36:40incredible filmmaker. He's got a new film called Housewarming, by the way, that's playing
36:44festival circuit. But Liam shared that he's developing his first feature film
36:50with Escape Plan. And so they made St Maude, the new film Love Lies Bleeding.
36:56And, you know, it's a big company, you know, and, but he says that until he's on set,
37:04filming, he's not going to get excited yet. So until I was actually walking yesterday,
37:09I was walking, just walking in around, sort of trying cross area walking. And there are times
37:15I just walk and I just imagine myself on set of my film of my first feature. Like, you just imagine
37:21talking with, I just imagine talking with my actors. I imagine, you know, talking with my
37:27DOP Orland and talking about the block and the framing. I see the film so,
37:34so intimately, it's so clear in my head, like I see the world, I see the characters,
37:39I see the costume, it's so clear. And all I want is the opportunity to be able to do that.
37:45And yesterday I was walking and I'm just like, I imagine myself getting up at 5am for the
37:51early shoots, but smiling, you know, on the way to set at 5am when everything is dark,
37:56when you know you have a long day ahead of you, your 5am starts to 8, 9pm, you know,
38:02I sort of imagine myself even on the difficult days shooting, you know, the challenges of
38:08navigating problems with my DOP, with my art director, with, you know, with my costume
38:13designer, like I imagine the pain, the pleasure, the challenges, but it's just,
38:20but I'm just, I was just smiling to myself. I cannot wait. I can, I can see it. I can taste
38:24it. And the fact that it's closer now than ever, it's, I have to guard my heart. I have to protect
38:32myself basically, because what's happened in the past four years is I get carried away and
38:37you just see yourself on set and then you get a news that, oh, it's not, you don't maybe get that
38:43funding or it's not quite happening. So I guess cautiously optimistic, right? And that's the
38:49nature of that. I think it's like any filmmaker can relate with the idea of festivals, you know,
38:55when you apply for festivals, when you get the no's, it's heartbreaking, you know? So when I
39:01apply to festivals now, I never just think, oh, I've already got an in because you'd never know,
39:05you know, it's just, I wouldn't say it's luck, but it's definitely just
39:10being patient and accepting whatever comes, yes or no. With this feature, I'm definitely,
39:16it feels closer. I mean, I've got a great, great producer in Jack O'Brien. Jack is phenomenal.
39:24We linked up 2021 and he just, so Jack has actually just finished this first feature film
39:30called Unfallen, beautiful film. And yeah, you know, he loves my feature. We've had a lot of
39:39discussions around it and Jack works for 16 Films, Ken Loach's company. And, you know,
39:45they have a history of making beautiful, socially conscious films, but powerful films that are
39:52bold in their aesthetic and their message. And working with them has been a blessing because,
39:57yeah, Jack believes in me and he's pushing the film. And yeah, so that's been so good,
40:03finally, it's real that it is happening. I just have to keep on praying, keep on working and
40:10stay grounded until I'm on set, basically.
40:12I love that, bro. We are looking forward to it.
40:18Me too, me too, bro.
40:20I'm so happy you're at this point, man. So yeah, thank you.