Swizz Beatz and Rema sit down for the latest episode of Musicians on Musicians. They come from different worlds, but the Bronx-born superproducer and the Nigerian pop star share a relentless creative drive — and they know the difference between flashy possessions and true art.
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00:00 I don't feel famous at all.
00:02 Like I don't feel, I just feel like I'm chosen to do this.
00:07 So I'm like, I feel like yes, my decision took me this far.
00:11 But I just feel like if it wasn't for me,
00:13 there would be no one else.
00:14 - You know I actually feel that sitting in front of you.
00:16 I feel, I can tell that it's a gift.
00:19 And I can tell that your purpose is for a reason.
00:23 I can tell in your demeanor,
00:24 I can tell in your spirit, your aura.
00:26 I'm energy all day.
00:28 (upbeat music)
00:31 - But you know the crazy part is
00:44 the same studio that we're sitting in,
00:46 I got banned from for six years.
00:49 So it's kind of crazy.
00:50 Back in this studio because,
00:54 it was a wild ride.
00:57 Like this studio that we're in right now,
00:59 Record Plant in LA was like,
01:03 the hallways in here would be like,
01:06 sometimes a party, sometimes a prison.
01:10 'Cause they used to put all of the artist names on the door.
01:13 Right, in this room, Pharrell worked in this room a lot.
01:16 Pharrell always worked in this room.
01:19 Tim worked in like the other room on the back over there.
01:23 My wife worked in the room that's in the middle here.
01:27 But what happened was it became like a community hangout
01:29 where like, you got gang members,
01:33 you got record execs, you got lawyers,
01:37 you have like everybody that do anything in entertainment
01:40 like in one spot.
01:42 And it feels kind of crazy being in here
01:45 because I just remember this studio was like
01:48 where a lot of hits was made.
01:50 And because this room could have what you were saying
01:52 earlier, the orchestra in Pharrell used to have
01:55 live orchestras and different string sections.
01:58 The same with my wife, she used this room
02:00 for big string sections and things like that.
02:03 But it was just crazy because we having
02:05 like a nice conversation.
02:07 And outside, like this place was like hell.
02:11 Like in a good way, right?
02:13 Like I got my 20 guys, this person got their 20 guys
02:17 and I got banned for six years.
02:20 - Having like different creatives in one building,
02:24 it's amazing and still is competitive.
02:27 - Very competitive.
02:28 I remember when I was working on B-Day with Beyonce,
02:31 she is so smart, right?
02:34 So she comes downstairs and she knew how to put
02:36 the right battery in my back and wind me up.
02:40 And so she says yes, you know, like she's like,
02:42 man, like it's gonna be amazing, boom, boom.
02:44 And then she was like, oh, I got Rodney Jerkins upstairs,
02:48 I got this one upstairs, I got that one upstairs.
02:51 And I thought it was just gonna be me and her.
02:54 I was like, okay, I was like, oh shit, there's a bunch of us?
02:57 And it forced me to go left.
02:58 If you listen to Get Me Bodied,
03:00 I got so overloaded of how professional,
03:04 like Rodney, these guys are like real,
03:06 like they started in church, like they can play anything.
03:09 Like these, you know what I mean?
03:10 Like these guys are real scientists with it.
03:12 Me, I'm a kid from the Bronx, I play what I like,
03:15 I play how I feel.
03:16 I had to like change my mind and say, you know what?
03:19 I'm in here because of what I do.
03:23 All I gotta do is what I do.
03:24 I don't need to compete with anybody.
03:27 And I stripped everything out the beat.
03:29 And then that's how Get Me Bodied happened.
03:33 And then it just changed the trajectory,
03:34 even how she did songs and had less musical sounds
03:39 and more vocal and dance.
03:42 It's up to you guys to like fuel the producers.
03:46 And sometimes you gotta challenge us.
03:48 And sometimes we're gonna,
03:49 I'm definitely gonna challenge the artists.
03:52 - Definitely, definitely.
03:54 - Now you're in a situation where a lot of kids
03:57 are gonna follow you.
03:58 And so like, how do you have fun
04:01 and still set the trail, you know?
04:04 - And you know, like in Nigeria,
04:06 when they say the first person to give their family
04:10 a big break, like make it out of the hood or all of that,
04:14 you know, it's different.
04:16 You know, you, like you just kind of have it
04:18 in your subconscious, like it's not just about me now.
04:23 You know, it's not like this money somewhere
04:25 saved up for me.
04:26 It's like this chance, this opportunity
04:29 is not just for me, it's for me,
04:30 my family and the generations to come, you know?
04:34 - Being the first to change the whole dynamic
04:37 of your family, like how does that actually feel
04:40 coming from where you come from
04:42 to even being right here in LA where we at
04:44 and you have a show in a couple of hours
04:46 where, you know, people are gonna be like screaming
04:49 and singing for you and you're all the way in America.
04:54 Like, how does that actually feel?
04:57 Like, did you digest that yet or are you still taking that in?
05:02 - I'm still taking it in.
05:04 I get to work hard and, you know, get these trophies.
05:09 I said, thank you to my mom for holding it down, you know?
05:15 - That's a blessing. - For my family, you know,
05:18 for the people that I've lost.
05:20 And then, yeah, the other side is my passion
05:24 and what I wanna give to the world.
05:26 - You know, what are your next moves?
05:29 - In as much as, you know, that vacation is needed.
05:31 (laughing)
05:33 - The vacation is needed.
05:35 You need the vacation.
05:36 - I've been on the road for four years, back to back,
05:39 dropping bangers, hopping on stage.
05:42 Just helped my, you know, my growth, you know?
05:46 Non-stops, going, going, going.
05:49 In as much as the vacation is needed,
05:52 I just don't like to feel idle.
05:54 I have so much plans for evolving the sound.
05:59 I've always been that guy who just want to change the game
06:03 or change how the game is perceived.
06:05 - You're doing that.
06:06 - You know, from sound to shows to branding.
06:11 Even though some artists will not give me that glory
06:14 or whatever, I know how many people have copied my moves.
06:18 (laughing)
06:19 I definitely, and I'm flattered by it.
06:22 - That's what I was about to say.
06:23 - Like, it shows I'm bringing something to the game.
06:26 - You're home.
06:28 The ship has landed when they do that.
06:30 - Yeah, but the hardest part about that thing is like,
06:33 sometimes they won't even give you time
06:35 to dwell on that fresh idea you just thought about.
06:38 When everybody's on it, if you are that,
06:41 when you're that guy, you just have to move on
06:43 and create something new.
06:44 - Yeah.
06:45 - Just have the unconscious responsibility
06:47 to just create something new.
06:49 - I think that's important.
06:51 Even speaking about trailblazing,
06:55 when you trailblaze and people want to follow the blaze.
06:58 And I remember when I used to drop my sounds
07:02 and people would pay people to copy my sounds
07:05 because my price was too high at the time.
07:07 (laughing)
07:08 You know, and it would be like to the point
07:11 where they literally took all of my stuff
07:14 and I just was super upset in the beginning.
07:19 And then I said to myself, I said,
07:20 "Wow, you know, the blessed part is
07:23 "I'm not the person copying.
07:25 "I'm the person leading."
07:28 And so like when people started copying me,
07:29 I took that as big compliments.
07:32 And it also showed me to stay a step ahead
07:35 and keep trying new things and keep leading the charge
07:39 and know that people are gonna follow.
07:41 But one thing people are gonna always come back to
07:43 is the quality.
07:44 - Facts, the quality, and knowing that
07:47 when the game names you something,
07:49 like when I named myself the future,
07:52 it's just an unconscious responsibility.
07:54 But when the game by itself calls you
07:57 the prince of Afrobeats, or your nest,
08:00 or your this, your that,
08:02 it's like you just, the universe just picked you, you know?
08:06 Even though I'm just four years in,
08:08 this is not, I'm not trying to tax it
08:10 on how long I've been in the game.
08:13 What's most incredible is how short and impactful
08:16 I have been since I came in the game.
08:19 You know, seeing Afrobeats
08:20 shutting down the whole of India.
08:23 - Facts.
08:24 - That's a country in the billions
08:26 when it comes to like amount of people,
08:28 like 1.something billion people.
08:30 - Yeah, seeing you leaning into India pretty heavy,
08:32 I thought that was a very smart move.
08:34 How many streams is the record now?
08:37 The first big one?
08:39 - Yeah, it's about to be the first Afrobeat song
08:41 to hit a billion streams on--
08:43 - Wow, mashallah.
08:44 - On Spotify.
08:46 - Wow.
08:47 - Yeah, the one with Selena,
08:49 about to be the first Afrobeat song
08:50 to hit one billion streams ever.
08:52 - Wow, how does that feel?
08:54 - To be honest, I'm not really taking all my wins
08:56 in the plaques, all of that,
08:57 because I'm steady on the move,
08:59 but it shows that the world is listening.
09:03 There was once a time where a lot of Afrobeat artists
09:07 were sharing 100 million fans.
09:09 - Wow.
09:09 - Like in the sense that we had that much ears
09:12 listening to us.
09:13 - Mm-hmm.
09:14 - The way I calculate it's like,
09:16 okay, we now have enough ears who are ready for good music.
09:20 This is not about, oh, this is my stan,
09:23 or I like this person more.
09:24 This is just, we now have attention.
09:26 We're leaning into that billion range by God's grace.
09:30 - Into the future.
09:31 - In different drops and all of that.
09:32 - Now, what would you say to the little kid
09:36 back at home or just in your region?
09:40 Like what is some of the advice of that youth
09:44 that's looking at you, that's sitting home
09:47 trying to get to where you at?
09:49 What is some of the advice would you give to the youth
09:51 that are now following you
09:53 and that's also adding to the billion streams?
09:57 - Tell yourself the truth.
09:58 - Tell yourself the truth, that's hard.
10:00 - Like don't even cloud your ego or try to force it.
10:05 Just tell yourself the truth.
10:07 First, do you wanna do this?
10:10 Is this what you wanna do?
10:12 Do you wanna copy or do you wanna create?
10:15 Do you want it the easy way
10:17 or do you want it the hard way, first off?
10:18 'Cause a lot of people feel like,
10:20 oh, once they're blown, it's up.
10:23 But that's where the work really starts.
10:25 Why some people see it as sports.
10:27 It's sports.
10:30 It's not just about the music.
10:32 When you wake up, what do you eat?
10:33 What do you drink?
10:35 You have to pay attention to everything.
10:37 - I like that, what you just said, it's sports.
10:41 - Yeah, it's sports.
10:42 It's like who do you surround yourself with?
10:45 Who is coaching you?
10:46 Who are your mentors?
10:48 It's inside out.
10:51 - I agree with that.
10:52 - Yeah, so people are just selling aura.
10:54 They're just selling the floss.
10:57 And it's like, we all know how that goes.
10:59 - Man, you are very wise for your position and your age
11:02 and it's a breath of fresh air to hear the youth speaking.
11:07 Because a lot of people, they really don't get it.
11:13 They really don't understand the message that I give
11:16 to up and coming producers or songwriters
11:19 and they so thirsty for it.
11:20 I'm like, listen, be original.
11:22 That's the best thing you could ever be is original.
11:26 Because if you're original,
11:27 then you can control that journey.
11:29 But if you're copying other people
11:31 and you're doing something just for a quick fix,
11:36 it's just gonna be exactly that.
11:37 It's gonna be a quick fix.
11:39 And then it might work.
11:40 But then when it work, you can't balance it.
11:43 'Cause it's not you.
11:45 - Yeah, it's not you.
11:46 There's no back end.
11:46 There's no story.
11:48 You have to have a story.
11:50 The way that fan base really stick with you
11:52 is 'cause they know.
11:53 - It's an authentic story.
11:55 - They know the authentic.
11:56 They can tell someone else, like, yo, he went through this.
11:59 This song is about this.
12:00 They can express, you know, like me saying I'm the future
12:04 and knowing that when I was laughed at and all of that,
12:06 like my fans can be like, yo, I stood by this guy
12:09 when you guys were laughing at him
12:10 and he said this and he did it.
12:13 - Yes.
12:14 - There's a story, there's a build up to that.
12:16 Who gave you meaningful advice
12:19 that got you going this far?
12:22 - Oh man, I was lucky to start in the family business.
12:26 My family owned Rough Riders.
12:28 My Uncle D, my Uncle Y, my Aunt Siobhan.
12:32 So it started as a family business.
12:34 And so when I was coming up, I was just always around family.
12:39 You know, when they seen DMX,
12:41 when they seen Dragon, The Lox, whoever,
12:44 we was all, still to this day, all a family.
12:47 So my uncles and them coming from the streets
12:51 and seeing them change their life and get into music,
12:54 you know, they gave me a lot of good advice.
12:56 But I also listened to a lot of old people.
12:59 You know, my grandmother raised me,
13:00 so I was already in tune with wisdom
13:03 and older people that had been through so much
13:07 that they're telling you, they have no skin in it.
13:09 Like, they don't care about your money,
13:11 they don't care about any of it.
13:13 They just telling you factual things, unbiased.
13:17 Even still to this day, you know,
13:19 with all of the success, I'm still a student.
13:22 You know, like, 'cause you can be a student
13:24 and a boss at the same time.
13:25 The minute that you stop learning,
13:27 I feel that's when you stop living.
13:29 You know, things change every day.
13:30 So, you know, I never count the youth out.
13:33 I never count somebody that might not be as fortunate.
13:36 I never count anyone out because the wisest person
13:39 might not even dress like us, might not even look like us.
13:43 But what they saying could probably change our life.
13:45 So just traveling the world and just sitting with people
13:49 and being quiet, actually, and just observing
13:52 is some of the best mentorship I got, was just observing.
13:57 I might know the answer, but I might not know
13:59 all of the answer.
14:01 I might know a piece of the answer.
14:02 You did your album in your room?
14:04 - Yeah, most of it in the room.
14:06 At home. - Oh, at home?
14:07 - Yeah.
14:08 My guy in London come stay with me for a while.
14:12 - So London's your main guy?
14:14 - Yeah, London's my main guy.
14:16 And we just, you know, 'cause it's more about, like, synergy.
14:20 - Yes, it's just amazing to see how producers
14:23 are able to evolve and songwriters are able to evolve
14:26 no matter the climate.
14:28 - Yeah. - 'Cause when I started,
14:30 you had to do that.
14:31 - Yeah. - It wasn't no question.
14:33 - No question. - You know, it is.
14:35 Like, you couldn't say, oh, I'm just gonna stick to this.
14:37 No, you had to go left, right?
14:39 Like, I remember I did, I had Rock Track Out,
14:43 Keep Rollin', Limp Bizkit, Marilyn Manson, DMX.
14:50 Jay, and then some R&B vibes,
14:54 like, all at the same time on the radio.
14:56 Man, I'm glad that you got a person that understand your
14:59 sound and you guys have a synergy, 'cause that's how me
15:02 and DMX, like, we had a synergy.
15:05 And other people would do beats, but it's different,
15:08 you know, when you have that formula.
15:10 - That formula, yeah.
15:11 Yeah, London gets it, 'cause, like, even when
15:15 other producers, you know, do stuff,
15:18 I still send it to London, you know?
15:20 And I don't know if you do it still, like,
15:23 not a lot of producers do it because, yo,
15:25 they're hyped that, oh, there's artists that's popping
15:28 in the studio and we're just making stuff.
15:29 Like, some producers be like, yo, correct this.
15:33 - Our job is to protect each other as an artist
15:36 and the producer, it's a 50/50 split.
15:38 So if I'm just saying yes to anything,
15:40 to put my name on something, then I'm doing myself
15:43 a disservice, I'm doing the fans a disservice,
15:45 and I'm doing you as the artist a disservice.
15:48 - I know you've been in the studio with a lot of people
15:50 who write, people who don't write.
15:52 Like me, I don't write most of the time, you know?
15:55 'Cause I feel like, I make use, I would say,
16:00 I make use of energy mostly.
16:02 It's not just the words, it's just, like, the energy,
16:05 that spark, that brightness, when that idea comes.
16:09 I just wanna drop it immediately.
16:10 - Effects.
16:11 - You know, I feel like it's a frequency.
16:13 Like, there's some times, even when I know that,
16:15 I could do a better take, I'll be like,
16:18 no, there's just an energy or an excitement.
16:22 - That's key.
16:23 - I, you know, recorded that with, I don't wanna do it,
16:26 I don't wanna let that perfectionism come in, you know?
16:28 What's it like working with people writing,
16:31 or people, which do you prefer?
16:33 - You know, what made me really popular
16:37 when I first started was, I would have the beat
16:40 and the chorus already laid for the artist to come in,
16:43 so the artist just had to just plug and play.
16:46 So, the artist would come in the studio,
16:48 you know, I'd look at the energy or the vibe,
16:50 they come in with their friends,
16:52 I'm like, oh, he's like in a club mood,
16:53 I got this club energy, 'cause I already see you
16:56 in that energy, or he might be, or she might be sad
16:59 with their lover, they're a little down,
17:01 oh, we're gonna do a good love song today,
17:03 let me push this vibe.
17:04 So, I usually feed off the artist's energy, right?
17:07 So, the artist come in, you know, on some rough stuff,
17:10 oh, we're gonna do a super street record today,
17:11 this is good.
17:13 I might have wanted to do an R&B record
17:15 or something for the ladies there,
17:16 but nah, you coming in here, you got your hood on,
17:18 you mad at some guys, we're gonna do
17:19 the best street record to date.
17:21 And I feel like gauging the room and gauging the energy
17:25 is important because you could come in in a mood,
17:29 like you're thinking about your girl
17:30 and I'm pushing a party song on you,
17:34 it's just not gonna work.
17:36 I mean, it worked for DMX one time with "Party Up",
17:38 but if you listen to "Party Up",
17:40 he does everything against the track.
17:42 Like you could tell he didn't wanna do the song
17:45 because I forced him, 'cause we was on a deadline,
17:47 I forced him to finish that song
17:50 so we can meet this deadline and do what we needed to do.
17:53 He went on the mic and if you listen to "Party Up"
17:58 and listen how the chorus and the song,
18:03 and then listen to his verse,
18:04 it's the most disrespectful verse I think he ever did.
18:08 And it's the biggest song we ever made.
18:10 (laughs)
18:11 - And that's DMX "Party Up".
18:13 - For me it's like, it's crazy that I've been making
18:16 like club bangers alone.
18:18 (laughs)
18:20 - You can do that.
18:21 - Yeah, alone.
18:22 - Yeah, I can do that.
18:23 - I'm a logic guy.
18:24 - Oh, you like logic?
18:25 - I know a lot of people like Pro Tools and stuff.
18:28 But yeah, I'm a logic guy.
18:29 - Yeah, I like logic better.
18:30 - Well, I've been recording myself since like,
18:33 when my EP, the first EP.
18:35 Yeah, and then my ears just got better and better,
18:38 started mixing stuff still.
18:40 - Damn.
18:41 - Yeah, for me it's just like, I just lock in.
18:44 I go from, 'cause I skip, I record really like quick,
18:47 I don't like to be in one idea too long.
18:50 So when I record, I just make sad song,
18:54 and the next one is a party song,
18:56 and then there's a sad song,
18:57 or there's different vibe, I just do anything.
19:00 I just, and I really have fun with producers
19:03 'cause sometimes I be like,
19:05 where is that folder that you hide them weird beats
19:08 that you know nobody's gonna vibe?
19:10 I already know how you, that's,
19:12 there's artists that all they do
19:14 is what you're saying right now.
19:15 They wanna go to the graveyard.
19:18 - Literally, 'cause we know like in your free times,
19:22 like you guys just like create stuff,
19:24 and deep down somewhere in your mind,
19:26 you're like, there's nobody right now to vibe to this,
19:29 but I'll just make it regardless.
19:31 You know, those are the type of gems I like.
19:33 Maybe we might not use it the way it is,
19:36 but it's just something in there that we can.
19:38 You know I used to do something to the artists.
19:41 I used to make a beat that I know they love
19:43 and just cut the machine off.
19:45 - Oh yeah?
19:47 - It even mad at me the whole day.
19:49 You just threw away a hit.
19:52 I said, don't worry about it, we'll make another one.
19:55 It's something that I didn't like about it,
19:56 so I didn't care if I lost it,
19:58 and I stopped recording songs into my session,
20:03 my drives that I didn't love because what happens,
20:07 which you just said happens.
20:08 The artists come in and they wanna dig in the crates
20:11 and pull up old things,
20:13 and they're gonna hear one of these songs
20:15 that I didn't like, and they're gonna pick it, right?
20:18 And then I'm gonna be in this situation.
20:20 How am I gonna tell you, no, we can't do this song
20:23 because I don't like it?
20:24 Then why am I playing it?
20:25 So I started erasing, not keeping anything I didn't like.
20:29 - I was telling one of my guy,
20:32 I feel like in 50 years time,
20:34 with the way the catalog is going,
20:36 with the way we're very specific about creating,
20:41 we're gonna get sampled a lot.
20:44 - I think you're getting sampled now.
20:48 - That's what I told him.
20:49 - You're getting sampled now in many ways.
20:51 - I was like, the sound is just too different,
20:53 that in the future we won't get sampled.
20:55 - Thousand billion percent.
20:56 - Yeah, it's stressful sometimes,
20:58 just being stuck in one song
21:01 because we just need that one thing.
21:03 We don't know what it is,
21:05 but when it comes, you know?
21:08 - Yeah, man, I wish you more blessings on your journey
21:13 and even beyond this talk.
21:15 'Cause a lot of people are transactional.
21:18 I don't like being transactional.
21:20 I feel like if you have an energy with a person,
21:23 it should be whether you're doing a song,
21:24 not doing a song.
21:26 It's just how you're doing on a Wednesday,
21:28 not because your show is tonight
21:30 and I wanna get some tickets for these people
21:32 or that people now.
21:33 All of this fake industry stuff,
21:35 I feel that being human is the biggest currency
21:38 you could have, is being a real human to another person.
21:42 Even when they told me about this shoot
21:45 and your respect, I was just like,
21:49 I respect that.
21:51 So I wanna offer you, hip hop is 50 years,
21:54 I've been doing it for 25 years.
21:56 So I wanna offer you the keys to a treasure chest
21:59 that's been, that got 25 years in it at your disposal.
22:04 - Thank you, I'm very grateful.
22:06 It means so much to me being in the presence of OGs
22:09 who have been around a lot of people
22:13 who also inspired me.
22:15 I know you've spoken to Bono,
22:16 but hip hop has had its own impact still
22:21 in Afrobeats.
22:22 I tell my guy, I won't lie,
22:26 no one inspired me to dress the way I dress
22:29 more than hip hop.
22:30 Even though I got my African culture thing going on,
22:34 but that education from another genre did its thing.
22:39 There's just different sides of it
22:41 that just inspire the youths.
22:44 And I would say I'm very grateful to be in your presence
22:49 and you hold so much wisdom
22:51 and just this few minutes or an hour,
22:55 I don't know how long it's been.
22:55 - Just love striking.
22:57 - I already know what it's gonna be like
22:59 if we actually spend a long enough time together
23:02 and create together.
23:03 And one thing I feel like is also amazing is,
23:07 I know the labels be doing their thing
23:10 and bringing up collaborations and stuff,
23:13 but it's very key when two creatives actually sync.
23:18 - 1000%.
23:20 - I feel like collaborations just do 10 times better.
23:23 - In person, energy wise,
23:26 and once again, not transaction.
23:28 - There's no transaction, it's just real.
23:29 When you find your purpose,
23:32 I feel like the heavens rejoice
23:34 because here we go with someone
23:38 who has found the fresh frequency to bring it to the world.
23:42 What's special with music?
23:44 I don't know about superhero movies or all of that,
23:47 but one way to be immortal is music.
23:49 - And that's what you're doing.
23:51 - Yeah.
23:52 - This is your own superhero, you know?
23:54 - Literally.
23:55 - That's a fact, bro.
23:57 - Now I'm taking it in.
23:58 (laughs)
24:00 You know, conversations like this just remind you
24:02 like what you've done.
24:03 Thank you so much, I'm very grateful.
24:06 Yes, boss.
24:07 Much love.
24:08 (logo whooshes)