"In an exclusive interview with senior journalist Sanjay Jog, Chhagan Bhujbal, the Minister of Food and NCP Ajit Pawar faction leader, revealed why he left Shiv Sena. He shared his opinion on the OBC reservation issue. He also dropped a bombshell, saying Mr. Pawar was ready to go with the BJP multiple times before the Ajit Pawar-led rebellion.
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#Maharashtra #ChhaganBhujbal #AjitPawar #NCP #SharadPawar #HWNEWS #Maharashtranews
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Asar Thackeray said, "No!"
00:02 Then I said, "Better I quit Shiv Sena!"
00:06 Yeah!
00:06 And you know that time to come out of Shiv Sena was not an easy job
00:11 It was very dangerous to come out or to go against Shiv Sena, but if
00:16 I would not have
00:20 part with Shiv Sena, I would have become Chief Minister also.
00:25 Absolutely!
00:26 They always, you know, say that Maratha community is so poor, this, that, this, this, this.
00:33 So I say
00:35 This reservation is not made for the Garebi Hatao program. It's not a Garebi Hatao program.
00:43 I have
00:46 taken this work, not today. I left Shiv Sena on this cause, for this cause only.
00:54 What will happen tomorrow? Whatever will happen, will happen. We will see.
00:57 We will fight as we come tomorrow.
01:00 Namaskar and welcome to AHW News.
01:04 I am joined by a very veteran leader who has been pursuing the cause of OBC as well as
01:12 empowerment of the entire community and overall development of Maharashtra. He is no other than Mr. Chagan Bujbal
01:20 who happens to be the Maharashtra's Food and Civil Supplies Minister and also
01:25 Samta Parishad founder. Sir, welcome to this news.
01:28 We will have a range of issues to discuss, but I should shoot the first question and that is going to be the obvious.
01:35 Sir, what is the present status of the OBC reservation controversy, which is on and
01:41 also, there are news reports which are coming in from the Delhi that, that, that Rohini report is also going to be implemented.
01:49 Can you throw some light on that because you have been working this for last almost 25 years?
01:53 Number one, as this
01:56 Maratha community and
02:00 you know that in Maharashtra,
02:03 this community is a ruling community
02:07 in the districts also and the state-wise also.
02:12 Now, number of times
02:17 this community, they have approached
02:19 our OBC Commission.
02:24 Now, as per the law, if you want to get entry into this OBC
02:33 class, you have to approach
02:35 OBC Commission
02:39 and
02:41 then OBC Commission,
02:43 they have certain
02:45 you know, things to check in, checklist is there and then they recommend
02:51 to the
02:54 state government.
02:56 In 93-4, when this Mandal Commission was accepted
03:02 by Congress party,
03:06 then Chief Minister
03:09 Sharath Pawar Sahib, I was also in the ministry.
03:13 Yeah. And in the rally of Samatha Parishad at Jalna only,
03:19 where the one lakh people's crowd was there and we demanded that we want
03:25 that in the state, this Mandal Commission's
03:29 findings should be implemented
03:33 immediately. Yes. And in the rally only, Pawar Sahib announced, yes, within one month, I will do it. Now,
03:43 that time,
03:45 some
03:48 230-440
03:50 communities were there in
03:51 OBC class.
03:53 In due course, number of people, number of small, small communities, they approached this Commission and
04:00 Commission found that yes, it's okay and they recommended to government and government has
04:08 agreed to it and now, at present, there are some 375
04:12 communities in OBC.
04:16 Now, Maratha community, they approached Khatriya Commission. Yeah.
04:25 Bapat Commission and
04:31 Sharath Commission. Yes.
04:36 But all these three commissions, they refused to accept their request.
04:43 Well, still they were asking that no, no, no, we want the
04:51 reservation.
04:55 Well,
04:57 BJP government was there, BJP Sena government and Chief Minister was
05:05 Mr. Fadnavis.
05:07 They said okay and
05:10 they came with this bill.
05:14 I said nothing doing that if this bill we pass it and then
05:19 definitely, there will be problem for OBC class.
05:23 So, he said no, no. So, just to have a clarity for the viewers, you said the bill basically
05:29 recommending the reservation from the OBC category. No, no. Okay. Then? Separate. Okay.
05:35 Separate. That's what I'm going to say. Absolutely. Then, I took the objection and talked to him. I was not in the government. Yeah.
05:43 He said okay that you will be sending Chandrakant Ji Patil to meet me and
05:49 accordingly, he came, Patil sir and he said what do you want? I said look, I don't
05:56 have any objection. You can very well
05:59 give
06:01 reservation to Maratha community. I don't want to send. But not in the OBC community, neither
06:08 this Sheru caste or Sheru tribe. No.
06:13 These classes should be touched.
06:17 OBC, Sheru caste, Sheru tribe.
06:20 Beyond that,
06:23 whatever you want to do it,
06:25 accordingly, then they put a clause in the
06:30 bill and that the bill was passed where it was said that all these communities
06:35 will be saved and there will be no problem and
06:39 this Maratha community will not be given in this
06:45 OBC or any other. So, all this they saved.
06:50 All this is okay. Then they
06:54 went to
06:57 what do you call that? Gagwad and
06:59 commission and then they
07:02 went to the High Court. High Court passed something and
07:07 agreed to some things and then they went to Supreme Court. Supreme Court said no.
07:14 That Maratha community is a ruling community and they said there was a total data before the
07:23 court that all the sugar factories, they are from
07:27 your community or banks or
07:30 you know, whether
07:34 milk producing these institutions or whatever, whatever.
07:38 Including the
07:41 government. Yeah. That so many people, they became the
07:50 chief minister from Maratha community. Hardly two three people from other communities.
07:56 In the ministry also always at least 50% people they are from Maratha community.
08:03 On district level also, district panchayat or the
08:06 the
08:09 block
08:11 everywhere these people they are in majority.
08:15 So, this community is not a backward.
08:20 And they turned down it. Now
08:25 they started saying okay.
08:29 Number two, two things were there. One,
08:32 that is more than 50% and second Maratha community not eligible to get entry for the
08:41 reservation.
08:45 All of a sudden now these people they started saying that we want a
08:49 reservation in OBC itself.
08:53 Because
08:56 50% you cannot cross. There is you know ceiling on it.
09:01 So, we said no nothing doing. That you all people you have assured us.
09:11 And number one, the most important things
09:15 they always
09:17 you know say that Maratha community is so poor. This, that, this, this, this. So, I say
09:23 this reservation is not made for the Garibi Hatao program. It's not a Garibi Hatao program.
09:32 We got the
09:36 reservation or the schedule caste people got the reservation. It doesn't mean that they are all become the rich people. No.
09:42 It's not a Garibi.
09:44 People or the class who are depressed for years together, thousands years
09:49 to bring them
09:52 on the with the other people.
09:54 To the level, also to the mainstream.
09:56 Mainstream. Yeah. Then something should be done and that time then in constitution,
10:02 Professor Ambedkar and the
10:05 Parliament they passed it. Yes, schedule caste, schedule. And Professor Ambedkar in
10:11 what you call a section 340.
10:14 341, 342.
10:16 340 is first for the OBC. The OBC needs a reservation.
10:22 But for that government should constitute one commission and
10:27 do the survey all over the country. Yeah. Well, so what I say
10:33 that these are the communities which are already
10:37 depressed.
10:39 They are...
10:41 Today I said
10:43 one Mr. Kamble or somebody is from the schedule caste.
10:46 In Mumbai or in Pune,
10:49 he has got the property of 10 crores. Okay.
10:52 Now also if he goes to his place
10:56 in the village,
10:58 he cannot sit with the other people.
11:01 His house is definitely away from the other people. So that is the problem.
11:08 So bring those people
11:11 in the government, in the police, in the
11:15 officers, in the IRS, in the government, in the MLA,
11:20 Vidhan Sabha, that is assembly, in the Parliament, this reservation is given.
11:29 At park, like that only, OBC is also given the reservation.
11:34 So now how can
11:36 these new people say that "yeh gareeb hai hogar" and
11:39 yes, people are poor. Yes, definitely. In Maratha communities also,
11:45 many people are there poor.
11:49 But for all these people, there are several
11:56 things or several, the central government and the
11:59 state government schemes are there for their
12:04 education. Yeah. If they are farmers,
12:09 water schemes or the
12:12 the fertilizer, these, these, these.
12:15 Number of everywhere
12:18 housing schemes are there.
12:20 So all these things are already there. Yeah.
12:25 In Maratha community,
12:27 for their students,
12:29 the hostels are there. If you don't get the admission in the hostel,
12:36 that Maratha boy or girl will get six thousand rupees per month.
12:42 What I would say that already,
12:46 because they are poor, the schemes are there. Yes.
12:52 This reservation is not the scheme for the "Gareebi Hattav".
12:56 Bujjaba sahib, I just want to intervene here. You hit the very right call.
13:01 It's not a "Gareebi Hattav" movement,
13:03 but it is basically to bring the community in the mainstream, to have a level playing field and to empower them, right?
13:10 But just, then the question definitely arises, why Mr. Bujjaba always being looked at that he is an anti-Maratha?
13:17 Why this kind of a criticism that you have to attract and what's your reply to that?
13:22 I know you have clarified repeatedly that you are not against Maratha.
13:26 Why, why this kind of a fear, you know, a kind of your projection is being made in a certain section of a media or maybe outside?
13:33 The thing, I think, mostly I look at it as a political rivalry.
13:39 Because some people, they do not want that Bujjaba should rise up.
13:46 And
13:48 not all Maratha leaders or not all people, but some people,
13:54 they very mentally, they attack on me and the other day I say,
14:01 not only me,
14:05 which I do say, since last many years I said that Maratha should be given the
14:11 Resolution, not in OBC. But same thing is said by
14:15 Andhra Pradesh's Shagat Pawar Sahib,
14:18 Congress Nana Patel,
14:20 Ashok Chavan,
14:22 Amma Chief Minister,
14:25 Shinde or the
14:28 DCM's, Deputy Chief Minister,
14:31 Farnabes and the Ajit Dada.
14:33 All people, all political leaders, they say, no, OBC should not be touched.
14:40 Let them be intact.
14:42 Why do you attack me only?
14:45 So I say, this is all political.
14:49 I don't know what else can I say, but some people, they want to,
14:54 you know, pull me down, pull my legs and politics also.
14:58 But you are undeterred by such kind of a criticism, right?
15:05 I have taken this, not today,
15:08 I left Shiv Sena on this cause, for this cause only.
15:12 Because you were at the forefront for the implementation of the Mandir Commission.
15:16 Mandir Commission. Yes.
15:17 And at that time particularly, Balasaheb Thackeray said no.
15:21 Then I said better, I
15:23 quit Shiv Sena. Yeah. And you know that time to come out of Shiv Sena was not an easy job.
15:30 It was very dangerous to come out or to go against Shiv Sena, but
15:35 I said, okay, whatever happens, we will face it. And I faced it. Not like that. So,
15:41 last 30-40 years,
15:44 You have been pursuing this cause. I am pursuing for this cause. And not only Maharashtra. Yeah.
15:50 In the name of
15:53 Samatha Parishad, Mahatma Fulla Samatha Parishad,
15:56 in Delhi,
15:59 Ram Leela Maidan, three lakhs people from all over the country, they are all
16:03 leaders because Parliament was going on. So, all leaders they came and they were also Sarbharaj. What is it?
16:08 Then in Patna, that Gandhi Maidan, having the capacity of seven lakhs people full. Yeah.
16:16 After Jaipur Ghat and Indira Gandhi,
16:18 that we made the record there, crowd.
16:22 Then
16:24 Jaipur also, then UP, then Haryana, then Punjab,
16:29 number of places I went and had rallies and I said, yes, our OBC community should be given reservation
16:35 as per Mandalayog recommendation. And I am fighting for that since and my people also.
16:42 Yes, you can. So, it's not a question whether I am minister or no minister. I am MLA or no MLA.
16:49 I am in the politics or no politics.
16:52 My, for this cause, I am going to fight forever. But sir, now in the present constitu...
16:58 I mean, as you rightly said, every political party is definitely supporting that OBC should get reservation,
17:03 Dangar should get reservation and a couple of others, Lingayats and what not.
17:07 But as you rightly said, is it really possible with the Supreme Court judgment giving that 50% limit,
17:13 you can't, you know, ceiling or what we call, you can't have access in that, I mean beyond that ceiling.
17:19 So, what's the way out according to you now?
17:21 It's simple. Look,
17:24 that all these people together, they should approach, even the Honorable Stalin, Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu,
17:32 he had some two conferences from all these big leaders from all over the country
17:38 and I had also attended these two, three meetings and we also, I said, it's the same thing.
17:45 Let all of us should go to Prime Minister and ask him to increase the, to remove that ceiling of the charge of the 50%
17:59 and make it 60% or 65% whatever it is, as it is for economy backward class,
18:05 you people have given 10% more, that is, you have crossed the limit of 50%.
18:12 Okay, but that is for the economy point of view, the financial point of view.
18:18 But for this, you can increase 10-15% and if it is increased like that,
18:25 then the problem of Maratha community in Maharashtra, this Patidar committee in Gujarat,
18:32 Gujar in Rajasthan, Jat in Haryana, Kapu in Andhra, number of problems at one stroke.
18:42 We will be able to solve.
18:43 But is it possible now as you have now joined hands basically with the NDA, you are a part of now NDA,
18:49 do you really feel the Prime Minister and the BJP is quite serious, A, to hold the caste census
18:55 because you have been very ardently propagating basically to have caste census.
18:59 Now, the Bihar has already come out, but BJP is still not.
19:03 Even the state BJP chief has definitely said there is a need to it,
19:07 but at the central leadership, it seems there has been a dilly-dallying.
19:11 What's your view on that and do you feel that the government will bring in a constitutional amendment
19:15 to increase that quota limit?
19:17 The caste census also, we are demanding since last 40 years.
19:22 In 2010, we approached Supreme Court in the name of Samta Parishad and we say that
19:32 from 2011, the census will start, general census in the country. Ask our Union government to take this issue also
19:48 that let them find out how many, what is the percentage of OBC in the country
19:56 while doing this general census, they can do that also.
20:02 So, Supreme Court asked the reply from the central government.
20:07 Meanwhile, as my nephew Samir Bhojbal was a member of Parliament, I said, "Baba, you are a Parliamentarian,
20:16 why don't you raise your voice on the floor?"
20:19 He raised his voice and fortunately that time, Gopinath Rao Mundey, a friend, he was a BJP deputy leader,
20:34 he joined hands with Samir.
20:37 Then both of them, they went and approached various OBC leaders like Yadav, then Nima Yavati, Akhilesh
20:47 and Congress people and all.
20:50 100 MPs, they stood on the floor of the House of the Parliament and demanded it.
20:58 Powers have also raised this point in the Union cabinet and said, "Look, we have to do something."
21:05 Pranab Mukherjee, he announced on the floor of the House that, "Yes, we agreed with this
21:15 and we will count it, we will have the caste census."
21:20 What happened, that instead of doing this by the Census Commissioner, they have planned in such a way that
21:34 all village census will be done by your rural department, state rural and your, they are saying,
21:47 in the cities, urban development department of the state government.
21:55 Okay, I said, whatever is happening, let it be. All these data were collected.
22:04 By the time they completed this work, it was year 2016, Modi Sahib came in power and the data was
22:16 given to this government, Union government.
22:20 I remember that at that time also, Varun Jaitley Sahib also said that, "We have received this data of this OBCs
22:33 and definitely they are in the big problems, facing so many problems."
22:41 But he did not declare the number of the people or the percentile.
22:47 So, that means data remains still unrevealed, right?
22:50 Then, in 2017, Samvikas Aulia went to the Supreme Court and said that this OBCs in Maharashtra
23:00 should not be given reservation because empirical data is not available.
23:06 Then, Parnavis Sahib, he was Chief Minister and then he formulated one act and well,
23:17 but then he came to know that data is not, empirical data is not there.
23:21 He asked for the data, central government said no.
23:25 Pankaj Amonde was having that portfolio, Minister.
23:29 He also tried, no.
23:32 Then, meanwhile, that our Uddhav Thackeray became Chief Minister, I was also in the ministry.
23:41 We also tried.
23:43 They said no and the corona started.
23:45 Two years we could not do it and there from the Supreme Court, Khan Vilkar Court,
23:51 Khan Vilkar Sahib Court, do it, do it, otherwise no.
23:54 And then we had to take the election in certain district without the reservation of BJP.
24:05 Because, you know, you don't have data.
24:07 You know, what to do?
24:11 Now, what happened?
24:13 Madhya Pradesh elections of the, you know, that local self-government and somebody going to the court.
24:20 I said that Maharashtra, you have given this judgment.
24:24 Now, what about this?
24:26 Madhya Pradesh, they also don't have it.
24:28 The court said, okay, the same thing, same judgment for you also.
24:33 And then the BJP Chief Minister, Shivraj Chavan Sahib hurriedly approached Delhi people
24:42 and did some study on it.
24:46 And then Tushar Mehta from the central government supported him, Madhya Pradesh, in the Supreme Court.
24:54 They got the relief.
24:57 So, we also then approached the same route and then we also got it.
25:04 Okay, but we are not fully satisfied because it is not 100% we got it.
25:12 Still some problems are there.
25:14 But what for this caste census is required?
25:19 Why?
25:21 Only for political reasons or there are some other reasons also?
25:26 Look, when Sumitra Mahajan, our former speaker of the parliament,
25:38 when she was not a chairman but a parliamentarian, under her leadership,
25:44 some 16 parliamentarians committee was formed.
25:48 Parliamentary standing committee was formed.
25:50 And they were asked to study the OBC problems.
25:54 They came with the report that OBC, they are in bad conditions.
25:59 And as union government and state government, we are funding for this upliftment of the Shedu caste or Shedu tribe.
26:12 And the same way OBC should be given.
26:15 But since we don't have the data of this OBC, the number, we cannot do it.
26:23 Report submitted and they asked census commissioner that you provide us the data.
26:30 When we go for the next census.
26:34 Another committee was formed under the leadership of Manmohan Singh Sahab,
26:40 Hidambaram and Pawar Sahib, they were also the member of the committee.
26:45 Same thing happened.
26:47 Yes, these people should be given financial help, their houses, their health problems, their education, their jobs, a number of things.
27:00 But we don't have data.
27:02 Same thing they also asked census commissioner, please you provide us the data.
27:10 So, not only for the political reason, but for all these reasons, day to day problems OBCs are facing.
27:23 They are women, they are very much doing hard work.
27:30 They are in the farms, don't have education, don't have good health, number of all these things, you know, as the other people they are suffering from.
27:43 So, we want that data to collect and tell the union government and state government, look, now here is the empirical data, here is the number.
27:57 Now you provide the funds.
28:00 That is the main problem.
28:02 So, you are saying that this is not merely just a political issue, but this is also a must issue to empower and to improve the condition of the OBCs.
28:11 And Sajman, last question, you know, in your political career, you had been twice a mayor, you had been a minister, twice you have been DCM.
28:22 Unfortunately, you have missed the boat for becoming the chief minister or even the union minister.
28:27 Twice you deserted your earlier bosses.
28:30 How do you comment on your political journey?
28:34 And do you really feel now you are repenting, you know, leaving Mr. Sharath Pawar, who has definitely supported you in bad times.
28:41 What's the way out for you now?
28:43 If this is the case, and I say yes, then I would say, if I would not have part of the Sinha, I would have become chief minister also.
28:58 Absolutely.
28:59 Or in the second time, when Congress, working committee took the action against Sharath Pawar and removed from the party.
29:09 That time, I did mean that I stay with the Congress party.
29:17 And that time, all Congress big leaders, they were calling me, Mr. Bhujbal, you please come to Delhi.
29:26 We are now, we are going to announce your name that you are our next chief minister.
29:35 So, that time also I missed it and I say, okay, I will be with Pawar Saheb.
29:41 So, toh theek hai, kya karenge hai.
29:44 But sir, after, you know, whatever the bad patch you had undergone, you were jailed for two and half years by the BJP led government when the BJP was in power.
29:53 And now, you know, there has been a criticism that you and Ajit Dada have joined, not exactly the BJP, but the NDA, deserting Mr. Sharath Pawar.
30:03 How do you say that, what's your future politically?
30:07 So, are you going to support Hindutva in the BJP's time?
30:12 What's your views on uniform common civil code?
30:16 Are you going by their own theory or you will continue to have Phule Ambedkar Shahi philosophy and also the secularism?
30:23 Is BJP, I mean, is Mr. Bhujbal caught in such kind of a trap now?
30:28 Common civil code, so far we don't have any data or anything before us.
30:36 So, it's very difficult to comment on it.
30:40 One thing I already declared that we are going with the philosophy of Phule Shah Ambedkar.
30:48 That we are not going to part with.
30:51 Let it be anything.
30:53 Hum toh humara rasta jo hai Phule Shah Ambedkar ka, wo humne diya.
30:57 Now, why you just, I mean, left Pawar Sahab?
31:06 I said that in 2014 also Pawar Sahib wanted to go with BJP.
31:14 2017 also again when Shiv Sena and the BJP government was there,
31:20 these people have five days meeting on one of the industrialist house.
31:25 Everything was decided that itna humko minister hai, itna humara MLA blah blah blah.
31:31 Now, at the last moment then he said, Pawar Sahab, no no, we cannot sit with Shiv Sena in the government.
31:37 So, BJP said that this Shiv Sena is our friend since last 25 years.
31:42 We cannot remove them from the government.
31:45 That was second.
31:47 Then 2019 also Pawar Sahab had a talk and they decided to join BJP government.
31:58 And that's why this BJP, they disagree with Shiv Sena people to form the government.
32:08 And it was all done before the Ajit Pawar.
32:14 So, you know that in the very early in the morning he went and took the vote along with the fundamentalist.
32:20 That was the reason for that because he knew that we are already committed that we will form government with you.
32:27 And now Pawar Sahab all of a sudden changed his track.
32:31 Now, thereafter, so again in last five months or six months or before this, what you call this,
32:41 Shinde joined BJP.
32:45 Before that also Pawar Sahab and our party tried.
32:50 But 11th of a...
32:52 He backtracked.
32:54 He backtracked.
32:55 It's not that once it happens.
32:58 All the MLAs, they have signed.
33:01 All our party MLAs that yes, we want to join the government.
33:07 Now, what to do?
33:09 And Pawar Sahab was, it's not that Pawar Sahab should have said no, no not at all with BJP.
33:18 Right from 2014, five to six times these efforts were made to go with BJP.
33:27 And one more thing that if you can sit with Shiv Sena, why not BJP?
33:33 Then I said, "Ok, let's do one thing.
33:38 All these people, majority people, majority MLAs, they want to join.
33:43 Let us go."
33:45 If I say, "No, no, no, I don't want to join."
33:48 Now, you see, I am not under pressure because I already have been to jail for more than two years.
33:55 Now only the court case is there and the major case, I am discharged from the cases also.
34:02 So, now because other people also, they said, "No, no, we should go."
34:10 I said, "Ok, I have to go along with all these people."
34:14 But Phule Shahu Ambedkar philosophy, well, no MLA, no ministry, no politics, nothing.
34:26 So, my Mahatma Phule Samta Parishad will go along with Phule Shahu Ambedkar philosophy.
34:33 And just last question, Bulbul Sahab, you know, you have been a fighter all the time.
34:37 You are a creator. You are an innovator.
34:39 What's the way ahead for you now? I mean, you are at such a point that you have crossed now 75 years.
34:45 What's the political future you are looking at?
34:47 You see, Sanjayji, I never thought of it.
34:50 Kal kya hoga? Jo hoga so hoga dekha jayega.
34:54 Kal jaisa aayenge, vaise ladenge.
34:57 Great. So, I think on this positive note, we have a great conversation with a very veteran leader, Mr. Chakran Bujbal.
35:05 He talked at length about the OBC issue without, you know, what he is saying, it should not be.
35:12 I mean, if at all Maratha has to be provided quota, reservation, other, you know, quotas should not be disturbed.
35:18 But at the same time, he is saying he is in favor of providing reservations to Maratha.
35:24 At the same time, he talked, it is not a gareebi hatao movement, but it is a movement or it is a kind of a policy decision to empower them,
35:33 to bring them into a level playing field or and also to a mainstream.
35:37 And last but not the least, he said his decision to join hands basically with Ajit Pawar and others by going with BJP
35:47 is in the larger interest of the state and also not without any making, understanding or compromise to Shah Rukh Fule Ambedkar.
35:56 Sir, I think I will end this conversation with this positive note and thanks a lot for sparing time with SWN News.
36:03 Thank you, sir. Namaskar.
36:05 Thank you.
36:06 Thank you.
36:08 Thank you.
36:10 [Music]
36:23 [BLANK_AUDIO]