• last year
Senior journalist Sanjay Jog speaks exclusively to Deputy Chairperson of the Maharashtra Legislative Council, Neelam Gorhe, on various topics, including the Women's Reservation Bill, the Shiv Sena split, and the reasons behind her switch from Uddhav Thackeray to CM Eknath Shinde.

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Transcript
00:00 The name Shiv Sena has been given to Election Commission of India to Mr. Eknath Shinde and
00:07 also the symbol has been also given to the same party.
00:12 Really we feel we are honored though it is going to take very long time for coming into
00:16 existence but it is like having a roadmap.
00:19 Well they were suggesting me that why don't you change the part your leadership and I
00:25 told them that I will die with the same saffron.
00:28 That's why I was waiting to die.
00:31 Namaskar and welcome.
00:34 I am joined by Maharashtra Legislative Council Deputy Chairperson and also Eknath Shinde
00:40 led Shiv Sena's leader Dr. Neelam Gore.
00:44 I am going to speak to her on a range of issues both involving the legislature and also the
00:51 Maharashtra politics.
00:52 Tai, welcome in this edition of HW News interview.
00:57 I should ask the first question when it comes to the ongoing legal battle.
01:03 I know you have a compulsions and I don't want to encroach on your territory but for
01:07 the reader's interest what is happening when it comes to the disqualification petitions
01:13 and also the Thackeray camp has also taken objection about your standing and a position
01:20 basically the way you have joined Eknath Shinde led group.
01:24 Again Tai, I don't want any kind of a controversy that is to be created but I want simple answers
01:31 for the interest of the viewers.
01:34 If we remember the history of the last session, there has been detailed discussion on these
01:39 issues and also there is a ruling given by the Talika Sabapathy that time and also there
01:45 was a debate within council regarding these issues while the various rules and precedents
01:52 have been already expressed and as per that decision given by the Talika Sabapathy, he
01:59 says that whatever process may be pending either in the court or in the legislature,
02:05 day to day work or even including other applications of disqualification of other members can be
02:11 also looked by the deputy chairperson, number one.
02:15 Number two, here I would like to also make it very, I would like to underline that it
02:20 is not a question of joining A party and joining B party.
02:24 The party belongs the Shiv Sena party which was started, initiated, given leadership by
02:31 Supreme Mayor Bala Saheb Thackeray.
02:33 The name Shiv Sena has been given to Election Commission of India to Mr. Eknath Shinde and
02:40 also the symbol has been also given to the same party.
02:44 Number one, this is the point.
02:46 The point is this, when I became first time MLC in 2002, we are supposed to give a notification
02:54 to the legislature and which says which party you belong and what is the symbol.
03:00 So we have given Shiv Sena and Dhanusha Bandh.
03:02 It is the same.
03:03 It is continuity with the same party.
03:05 Now what happens outside the purview of the legislature and but we are abide by either
03:10 Supreme Court or even the Election Commission.
03:14 So I don't think there is any change of the party as such when it comes to both the fractions
03:19 are claiming something within assembly and it is still undecided and still it is the
03:24 case which is going on in the Supreme Court.
03:26 How any other decision making body is supposed to come to any conclusion because if it is
03:33 that decision is again expressed clearly something A or B decision, then do we mean that we will
03:40 change our decision accordingly and we will let MLAs or MLCs suffer regarding that.
03:46 So these are all the certain issues.
03:47 I will not like to comment anything about the process and things like that.
03:51 But basically we are very transparent as a legislature.
03:54 It is having a very, I would say, very proud tradition of democracy and I expressed in
04:02 the session that because we believe in democratic values, there is need to have debate in the
04:07 session itself, but that does not mean that by taking various viewpoints every time the
04:15 process is again hindered.
04:17 So we are taking the process in a proper way when it comes to Legislative Council of Maharashtra.
04:21 Ajit, my second question was with regard to can you give us some kind of a timeline when
04:25 it comes to disqualification or you will definitely wait for what happens in the State Assembly
04:31 and also maybe at the level of the Supreme Court.
04:34 At this moment, as they are taking legal advice by the experts, it is still on.
04:39 I will not like to comment anything on this.
04:42 Absolutely.
04:43 Tai, my next immediate question is that you have been in the field of women empowerment,
04:48 giving much of gender equality and couple of others and basically taking views with
04:54 regard to curbing the violence against women.
04:58 Incidentally, recently the women bill has passed in the Parliament.
05:02 In fact, before you shifted, you have been a wholehearted proponent of this bill to
05:08 be passed and the second issue that you took up was basically India requires uniform civil
05:14 code.
05:15 Can I have your views on both very important issues that is definitely quite key to the
05:20 Indian politics?
05:21 See, when it comes to the experiences of the women from the grassroots, they suffer subjugation,
05:29 they suffer patriarchal discrimination in every sector of life.
05:34 Now this struggle has been going on more than 300 centuries and now last 100 years it is
05:40 changing very fast.
05:42 So now there are many laws which are coming up all over the world like Equal Pay and Equal
05:47 Rights Commission which is happening in many states.
05:50 Similarly, safety at workplace, anti-trafficking laws and when it comes to cyber crime also
05:56 there has been new and new I would say safe cyber security parameters are being discussed
06:03 and they are being put into the practice.
06:05 So now when it comes to the women's reservation bill, I remember the struggle since last three
06:11 decades.
06:12 Lotika Sarkar, Veena Muzumdar, Amrunal Gore, Subhashini Ali, many of the stalwarts, they
06:20 were pressing for women in decision making process at different levels.
06:25 Now when it comes to issue of personal is political, why women do not get proper representation
06:32 in assembly.
06:33 It is a political process.
06:35 It is political process by three M's, money power, muscle power and also I would say the
06:41 fear or the I would say conspiracy of character assassination of women candidates which gives
06:47 them less representation.
06:49 So when there was the 73rd amendment, at that time there was a consensus and then those
06:56 amendments were done.
06:57 So one third representation was given to women in the grass root democracy.
07:02 Before that I remember Sanjay, we did one survey and where we asked some of the officers
07:08 what difference it will make after women's reservation bill and some of the men said
07:17 that before getting reservation they are like butterflies and after getting reservation
07:22 they become like serpents.
07:26 So maybe because becoming aggressive, becoming thinking about rights, becoming ambitious
07:32 is something looked down by the society as bad women.
07:35 So after one third reservation it has been converted into 50% reservation.
07:40 Still it is not an accident, it is not a coincidence that why this bill was held up from 1996 to
07:47 2003.
07:48 That is basically for lack of political will.
07:51 Secondly, because women's political lobby is not there, they are divided into common
07:56 mass voters and also few political women leaders.
08:01 There is no women's political party as such who will talk for them.
08:04 So everything is done by the leaders of the parties which are generally men.
08:09 That's why in most of the political parties we see excepting few one, there are very less
08:13 number of women at higher position as similar to corporates, as similar to other sectors
08:19 of life.
08:20 So now when there is a discussion and debate going on about the credit of the bill, why
08:26 Narendra Modi is taking or why he has been given credit to pass the bill.
08:32 I will thank him for two reasons.
08:35 One, the bill was already, I would say it was dismantled or it was totally in redundant
08:42 after 2014 when the parliament was dissolved.
08:46 So the bill also goes into the another process.
08:50 So it is not alive yet like that.
08:52 So secondly they put into the bill new format and there is an objective which is very important
08:58 to me.
08:59 It is equally important as per the one third reservation.
09:01 It says that because sabka saath sabka vikas, also it speaks about women's better role in
09:08 the decision making process.
09:10 And third, the lesson learned by the reservation up till now, women have been doing a very
09:15 meaningful role when it comes to policies for women.
09:18 So this is not only for appeasement, this is not only for event management, this is
09:22 something as a women as citizen of India, they should get the right to go to the assemblies
09:29 and the parliament.
09:30 Now the question arises, why not in the councils and why not in the Rajya Sabha.
09:34 So I am going to definitely try for that because at least I can put this on the floor being
09:39 the, there are only three deputy chairperson or chairperson in whole India who are on the
09:44 presiding officers.
09:45 So that becomes my duty again while welcoming Mr. Modi's decision.
09:51 Another thing which I liked for the second reason that he put into the front keynote
09:55 address about the importance of the bill.
09:57 Otherwise generally it is at the last 12 o'clock in the midnight and then nobody knows what
10:02 exactly that bill is meaning.
10:04 While in Rajya Sabha when this was passed, also another remarkable thing happened, every
10:10 member was present.
10:11 I will like to thank the Rajya Sabha for that and everybody supported for this.
10:15 I think things have changed not because of will or wish or mercy, things have changed
10:20 because of the growing awareness within women voters.
10:24 So that has been acknowledged by the Panthapradhan Narendra Modi which we feel that really we
10:28 feel we are honoured though it is going to take very long time for coming into existence.
10:33 But it is like having a road map or what we say in Google, where we have to reach and
10:38 how much time.
10:39 So similarly we are in the same process.
10:41 Absolutely.
10:42 And my second question was with regard to the UCC, Uniform Civil Code.
10:45 Yes, Uniform Civil Code is something I would say it is related with the equality in between
10:50 men and women and equality in between women of, they may belong to any religion, any class
10:58 or any economic strata or any caste.
11:02 So there can be laws related with inheritance, laws related with the maintenance, laws related
11:08 with divorce and laws related with the property in the parents, whatever she is getting as
11:15 inheritance.
11:16 So now these laws, some of the laws have been changed like Hindu Succession Act.
11:21 But what happens to women from other communities, number one.
11:25 Number two, when it comes to adoption also, certain communities they don't give women
11:29 right for adoption.
11:30 When it comes to, see there is lot of debate going on that particular religion is they
11:36 are able to marry four times.
11:38 But even in Hindu religion I would like to say, we have to make the second marriage as
11:43 a cognizable offense.
11:45 So if such things are expressed into the common civil code, which are good maybe in other
11:50 religions together.
11:52 So it is a relation of gender parity within the religions framework and maybe if we are
11:56 too progressive, if we really want to understand everybody's voice, even we should also think
12:02 about the third gender at this juncture.
12:05 What rights they can get even in property, why a person if he is a man or a woman, that
12:10 does not mean that they should not be chucked out of the property.
12:13 So these are all the issues which should be now are thought at a global level.
12:18 So we are citizens of India, but what happened in other countries like I would say Switzerland
12:25 or Sweden, where people from different sectors tried to take out good things together and
12:30 then there was a consensus and then it was reflected into making a law.
12:34 So it should not be against A religion or B religion.
12:38 So see we have waited for reservation 27 years.
12:43 Since 1986 what I remember, the law for Muslim women protection bill was introduced by Rajiv
12:50 Gandhi and actually instead of protecting Muslim women, it snatched away the right of
12:55 women when it comes to maintenance.
12:57 Now the Supreme Court acknowledged and they gave them the right for women.
13:01 So what right we have got as citizens to deprive women from every community of their rights
13:07 because somebody wants UCC or somebody doesn't want UCC.
13:11 This is the, I feel what Dr. Ambedkar had said in the constitution, that this is, I
13:16 feel that as a now I would say citizen and voter of the independent India.
13:22 Now this is the responsibility given by the history of India and also by our leaders in
13:29 constitution to make common civil code practical into reality.
13:33 Great.
13:34 Tai means in a nutshell for the viewers, can we definitely assume that UCC is not going
13:40 to be anti-Muslim that you rightly said against any particular religion.
13:44 Can you just tell us about that also?
13:46 See I am not the minister of law in India or neither I am not in the parliament but
13:51 what we wrote to the legal commission, law commission and also I wrote to Mr. Amit Shah
13:58 and I wrote to honourable Prime Minister and the Chief Minister and where we have said
14:02 that it has to have a main thrust on the gender equality.
14:07 It should not be thinking about common civil code.
14:10 It is a gender equality code for all the religions.
14:13 So if you are able to take it this forward, maybe the discussion may take six months or
14:18 one year up to the time things are changing.
14:21 But however the political will which has been shown and expressed by NDA and of course BJP
14:27 and Shusena together we also supported it.
14:30 The same political will gives justice to women after some time in future.
14:36 Similarly millions of women all over India and men who are for pro-women's rights, they
14:42 are waiting for that particular day to come and at least as an individual and also member
14:47 of Shusena and also I would say deputy chairperson of the Legislative Council, I am of the opinion
14:53 that these things should not be delayed further.
14:55 Great.
14:56 I have just two last questions.
14:57 One is obviously Tai, you have been a fourth time basically in the legislature but there
15:03 has been a kind of a real real kind of a concern being expressed in the society as large about
15:10 the behavior of the legislators in the house.
15:13 There has been a lot of debate which is on whether is there any kind of a code of ethics
15:18 which is required or whether it is there but not followed.
15:22 What's really going on and do you really feel the time is quite opportune to have a kind
15:28 of what we call as a hassle free and smooth functioning of the houses in the legislature.
15:34 What you can suggest on that?
15:35 I think there are two lenses through which legislators are being judged.
15:41 One is through the lens of the media and other lens is people's eyes through which they decide
15:46 who should be again winning the elections and who should not get the opportunity.
15:51 I think they, our democracy is quite strong.
15:54 They definitely teach a lesson to people who are not abiding humanity.
15:59 I will not say only about the law but also behaving one person nice to another person
16:04 what we saw in COVID.
16:06 At one point we saw people being very kind and very nice to each other.
16:10 On the other we saw family members who didn't even attend funerals on their own and they
16:14 saw to it that the government will take that responsibility.
16:17 So I feel behaving nicely and decently and dignified way for each other, it doesn't require
16:23 law.
16:24 It requires more, I would say, understanding of the human rights of yourself and human
16:28 rights of others.
16:30 So keeping this in mind, if our representatives try to understand that they are being watched
16:34 all the time by the society, maybe not all of them but some of them are really crossing
16:40 the limits.
16:41 They will really try to understand what is wrong with them.
16:44 And Tai, my obvious question and that is going to be the last because without which our conversation
16:49 cannot be concluded.
16:50 What really triggered you basically to shift over to Ekanath Shinde?
16:56 Was there any kind of a neglect or a suffocation that led to or was there a kind of, as usual,
17:02 there is a supremacy of a male dominated world in the Uddhav Thakarveli Shiv Sena which could
17:08 not give you an opportunity to function.
17:11 Can you just throw a light on this and really are you getting adjusted with a new environment
17:16 now?
17:17 One thing I will say that when I joined in 98 Shiv Sena, there was also bipolarization
17:23 and basically I was much on the side of NDA that time also because one, I come from anti-Congressism,
17:34 all my studenthood and Dr. Raman or Lohia's bigger Congress.
17:40 So keeping that in mind, George Fernandes and Rambila Spaswan, everybody was going through
17:45 different rivers were going from socialism to NDA.
17:49 So either the one option was to be part of that process at the national level and join
17:54 them and be a part of a smaller party.
17:57 While as a born and brought up, not born, but brought up in Mumbai, definitely I could
18:02 understand the relevance of being Marathi, relevance of working at the local level because
18:06 I was already very active at the international level.
18:09 But what I thought that if I will be able to share all this knowledge through English
18:13 to other countries, but how what happens to women in the Maharashtra and I felt that my
18:18 roots are so strong here, so I must think about local women and so I decided to join
18:25 Shiv Sena that time.
18:26 Now I have got two points, one is that Eknath Shinde is leading Shiv Sena, that Shiv Sena
18:33 does believe in all the same principles which was initiated by Supremo Balasaheb Thackeray.
18:39 It is related with giving priority to local people, also it related with Mumbai with new
18:45 vision 95 to 99, all the developmental factors which was taken by Shiv Shahi government.
18:51 These are being taken forward even by the Vendor for Endless since 2015 and secondly,
18:56 I would say lack of communication on the leadership side.
18:59 I won't mind having only, I would say there can be different type of interactive procedures
19:07 which may be different than other parties, but if there is no feedback or no advice or
19:14 no guidance coming from the leadership other than accusing each other every day, whole
19:20 day, that is the only agenda.
19:22 So 80% of social work and 20% of politics, so it has become 100% of mud slinging on each
19:30 other, that was the only agenda which was left for the social workers who are aiming
19:35 and looking at Balasaheb Thackeray's strategies and his policies.
19:38 So keeping this in mind, I waited for one year, I thought that party which is led by
19:43 Uddhav Thackeray, they will be able to try to have introspection.
19:49 What is wrong somewhere?
19:50 It could have been power, but other than that also many people were leaving the parties
19:56 who are already ex-MLA's or ex-MP's.
19:59 So they did see hope in Eknath Shinde, that is number one.
20:03 Personally I felt that instead of waiting all the time, it's better to take a stand,
20:08 because not taking a stand, what lessons we have learnt from Ambedkar movement, sometimes
20:14 the local, our activist becomes totally demoralized and slowly he or she becomes inactive and
20:20 some of them who need their sacrifice, there are generations after generations, but there
20:27 is a political gain they don't have, anything, even work for a service to people, it is not
20:32 possible.
20:33 So maybe I felt that it's better to save Shiv Sena with Eknath Shinde.
20:38 And Tai, in your latest book, you said as if you felt like you should die.
20:44 That was a kind of a point at which you have arrived while remaining with Uddhav Thackeray.
20:49 What was that which has really given you much of trouble when you were there in that camp?
20:54 Basically lack of communication and the way it was being centralized within party, you
21:00 get a feeling that you are not at all welcome and you are not wanted into the decision making
21:06 process at all.
21:07 So slowly and slowly you understand that maybe instead of closing the door towards you, first
21:14 they closed their door in their mind initially, then in intellectual, then in Matoshree, then
21:20 in Shiv Sena Bhavan and finally from their life.
21:23 So that was something otherwise quite disheartening to me and I was feeling that there were people
21:30 they were suggesting me that why don't you change your leadership and I told them that
21:36 I will die with the same saffron.
21:38 But that's why I was waiting to die instead of taking any other ways for politics.
21:44 But then I thought that if people, women like me are thinking like that also is not right
21:49 on my side because we have to give courage and confidence to people and for that I have
21:54 to be torchbearer of this process.
21:57 You know, Tai talked about range of issues.
22:00 She said she is committed for women empowerment, basically gender equality, she will continue
22:06 her fight basically to curb violence against women.
22:10 At the same time, she said the proposed uniform civil code certainly will not be against any
22:17 particular religion but it is encompassing, propagating gender equality.
22:23 At the same time, she has no heartburns of her decision to join hands with Eknath Shinde
22:30 and by and large, she has given a very interesting view about how a dignified way of thinking
22:37 and functioning of the legislature can take place if the legislators will definitely work
22:44 in that direction.
22:45 I think Tai, thanks a lot for sharing your views and really thankful for sparing time
22:50 for this interview.
22:51 Thank you.
22:52 Thanks a lot.
22:52 Thanks a lot.
22:52 Thanks a lot.
22:53 Thanks a lot.
22:53 Thanks a lot.
22:54 Thanks a lot.
22:55 Thanks a lot.
22:57 Thanks a lot.
22:58 [Music]
23:08 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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