Shirley Anne Somerville speaks to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation
Shirley Anne Somerville speaks to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation
Transcript
00:00 Well, I'm delighted to be joined here by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice,
00:05 Charlene Somerville, to help us launch our annual Poverty in Scotland report.
00:10 And I know that you'd have loved to have been with us in person, Cabinet Secretary,
00:13 but luckily you're in Variety with your Cabinet colleagues and meeting the good people of
00:17 Argyll, so we wish you well with that.
00:20 But I think it's a really important time to reflect on your government's top priority
00:28 in terms of tackling poverty.
00:30 So I really want to just get a bit of insight from you today about your visions, what's
00:38 driving you in government, and then most importantly, what are you going to do to help us deliver
00:44 Scotland free from poverty that I know we all want to see.
00:47 So we've got a few questions from GRF, but also importantly, questions from our lived
00:52 experience panel, our End Poverty Scotland group.
00:55 So I'll put those to you and look forward to hearing from you.
00:59 So first off, the First Minister set out very clearly that, as I say, tackling poverty is
01:04 right at the heart of your government.
01:08 Just why is it so important to you?
01:11 And also, what is your vision for a future Scotland free from poverty?
01:14 Well, you're right, the First Minister was very clear about this when he was campaigning
01:20 to become a leader of our party and then our First Minister.
01:23 And he set that out right from the beginning in his prospectus.
01:27 It's one of the three missions that we have as a government to tackle poverty.
01:32 And the reason he was determined to have that right at the heart of his government is that
01:36 there is an obligation on government to ensure that we are there for all of our citizens.
01:41 Now, poverty can affect any of us at any time in life.
01:46 And it's important that people know that their government is there for them in times of need.
01:51 But not just, of course, national government, local government, others as well.
01:56 So he was determined to ensure that he was putting that policy prospectus together.
02:00 So we've of course got £3 billion being spent on programmes that will help protect people
02:07 from some of the worst excesses of the cost of living crisis.
02:12 Because he knows, I know, that that is making life exceptionally difficult for people right
02:17 across the country.
02:18 And it's our responsibility to do what we can to tackle that.
02:21 This is also the first day of Challenge Poverty Week.
02:25 And that means that there will be organisations, whether it's businesses, charities, the public
02:30 sector, uniting together to talk about what they can do to deliver that Scotland free
02:36 from poverty.
02:37 But what would your message be to all of those people coming together this week?
02:41 Well, first of all, of course, yes, we're having this important week and it's right
02:45 that we do so.
02:46 But we have to be having these conversations every single week because we have that responsibility.
02:51 Not just in the national government, but elsewhere as well.
02:56 But to the Poverty Alliance for the work that they've done for starting off this project
03:01 some years ago now, to everybody else who is now involved, it is such an important time
03:07 to ensure that you're challenging ourselves, challenging each other to do what we can,
03:14 and making sure that there's no stone left unturned on this.
03:17 Now, I think the government has a good record in doing what we can.
03:21 We're seeing some of the benefits from some of that work, modelling showing about 90,000
03:26 children that are not in poverty because of the work that the Scottish government has
03:32 done.
03:33 But we all know that there's more to do.
03:34 I see that in my constituency mailbag when I'm meeting people.
03:37 You know that as a government minister.
03:38 We all see that in every single community.
03:41 We see it in our own communities.
03:43 So what can we do more?
03:45 And how can we challenge ourselves to work together, work collaboratively, because it's
03:49 not just going to be solved by the Scottish government.
03:51 I take my responsibility exceptionally seriously, and I know from every single time I've spoken
03:56 to the First Minister, particularly from getting this job, that he feels that responsibility
04:00 too.
04:01 But there is a big responsibility also on local government, on businesses, to make sure
04:07 that we're all playing our part.
04:08 And I think this week is a good way of us just having that focus once again on something
04:15 which is affecting, as I say, every single community in Scotland.
04:18 So every single organisation needs to be thinking about what they can do about it.
04:22 Yeah, and obviously during this week, it's impossible to talk about poverty at the moment
04:28 without reflecting on the deep struggles that households across Scotland face.
04:33 Many of the organisations who will be coming together this week, like the individuals they
04:37 help, are stretched to absolute breaking point.
04:40 Decades of austerity, the COVID-19 pandemic, and then this harsh spike in inflation really
04:46 has stretched people to absolute breaking point.
04:50 So what can your government do to help people in this coming winter?
04:55 Well, one of the first things that the First Minister did when he came into office was
04:59 obviously ensure that he tripled the fuel and security fund, because we did recognise
05:04 right at the start that this was a really big issue for people, particularly going into
05:08 winter.
05:09 There's also obviously the wider projects that we've done, and I'm exceptionally proud
05:13 of the work that I did in a previous post when we were just starting to talk about the
05:18 Scottish child payment, and we were getting pushed to do a 'give me five' campaign, as
05:23 we're talking about.
05:24 And now we've got a Scottish child payment that's now at £25 per week per edible child.
05:29 That is making a difference for people.
05:31 And it's important that we all also take the opportunity to encourage those to check to
05:37 see if they're eligible, because we still know that there's families out there that
05:41 aren't going for the Scottish child payment when they are eligible.
05:43 So that's a big responsibility on us too.
05:46 So some of the examples of what we're doing already, I hope, demonstrates how seriously
05:51 the government, how seriously the First Minister and I take this issue.
05:55 But we know there is more to do.
05:57 Now there's part of me, of course, is exceptionally frustrated.
06:00 I watch nearly £150 million coming out of Scottish government budgets to mitigate against
06:06 some of the worst of the welfare policies coming from the UK government.
06:12 I'm sure we could all think of ways that I can spend that money, and I know I can, to
06:16 be doing anti-poverty measures or to do preventative spend in health, transport, things that again
06:22 can make a real difference.
06:24 But it's important that we do that at this time until changes can hopefully be made down
06:29 south.
06:30 But, and this is the frustration of it, while we are in the situation that we're in, with
06:35 the budgets that we do have, the limited powers that we do have, we've just got to try and
06:40 make the most of that and to push ourselves to continue to do more.
06:43 One of the examples of that on the day that we're holding this interview is a fantastic
06:49 meeting we had earlier on on minimum income guarantee.
06:52 That's really trying to see how far we can push what we can do in Scotland to be innovative,
06:57 to be quite daring, quite bold, but something that we can hopefully do within the powers
07:02 that we have.
07:03 And just to reflect on the report that we are publishing as we're showing this video,
07:11 one of the focuses this year is on in-work poverty.
07:14 As you've already mentioned, the Scottish Government has taken action in the social
07:18 security sphere, which we know and we hope is going to lift lots of families out of poverty.
07:23 But one of the most shocking findings that we've got in our report is that of the people
07:29 locked in low pay, so getting paid below the real living wage persistently over time, over
07:36 70% of them are women.
07:39 So what can the Scottish Government do to work with businesses and other employers to
07:44 end this gross unfairness within our labour market that we know is causing poverty?
07:49 Well, this is such a stark example that's been shown in some of this research about
07:54 how particular members of our society are impacted by poverty more.
08:00 Women is one group we know that we've got many disabled people who are also facing extreme
08:06 poverty, large families and so on.
08:09 So we know there's got to be work to do on all of those areas.
08:14 Some of the statistics on the working poor are quite frankly appalling.
08:20 It used to be that you could rely on if you could be supported into a job, that that was
08:25 a way to try and help get yourself out of poverty.
08:28 That's no longer the case for many of these issues.
08:30 So we do have to take that very seriously.
08:33 Some of the examples of what we've done just very recently within the programme for government,
08:38 I hope demonstrates what we're trying to do in that area.
08:41 So for example, the First Minister's announcements to increase the pay for those in adult social
08:51 care to £12 per hour, and also for those working in early learning.
08:56 Now we know for both of those sectors, those are sectors that a vast majority of those
09:02 workers are women.
09:04 And for far too long we've had a society where the jobs that women would stereotypically
09:10 hold have been undervalued, and they have got poorer rates of pay.
09:16 And yet they do some of the most important jobs in our society.
09:20 And that needs to be recognised.
09:22 That caring needs to be recognised more, but that has to be through pay.
09:27 So that's why the First Minister has taken that decision to help and assist with the
09:33 funding to make sure that we're doing something on that.
09:36 Because it is absolutely terrible that we're in a situation where you can be in work but
09:42 still suffering from extreme poverty.
09:45 So there's a big obligation on government within the public sector, but we also need
09:48 to look at what we can do to support those in the wider caring sector, and support businesses
09:54 through our fair work agenda to make sure they're doing what they can.
09:57 Now that's good for the employee, but it also is good for the employer, it's good for businesses
10:04 to have a fair work agenda where they can support their employees, and I think that's
10:09 the right thing to grow our economy, which again will help us to be able to tackle poverty.
10:14 So that's the last question from us.
10:16 I've got a couple more questions which, as I say, come from our lived experience panel,
10:19 I am Poverty Scotland Group, and they are a group of people from across Scotland who've
10:23 experienced poverty.
10:25 And their first question is a wee bit tricky.
10:29 So frankly, faith in politicians at the moment is at a wee bit of a low ebb, and for people
10:36 struggling to get by, it can often feel like those who have always done okay, and frankly
10:42 in some cases have caused some of those problems, are still doing okay.
10:48 So what do you think you and the Scottish government can do to restore a bit of that
10:52 faith, and to show people who are struggling to get by that you're fighting in their corner?
10:57 Well, I'm not surprised that people have lost faith in some politicians, and I suppose my
11:03 ask to them would be to lose the faith in the politicians that are right to have that
11:08 challenge from you.
11:10 But there are those of us who have got into politics because we want to make a difference,
11:15 because we recognise a society that is unequal, where people aren't getting the same opportunities,
11:22 and too much of that is based on where you were born, your circumstances, what your family
11:28 background was.
11:29 And that just can't be acceptable as we go forward.
11:32 That's why I got involved in politics, and I know that's why the First Minister got involved
11:36 as well.
11:37 He feels that deeply, we both do, from our own family circumstances.
11:42 So we're determined to do what we can in this issue.
11:47 I've spoken already about some of the work that we're doing within government, whether
11:50 it's the Scottish child payment, the mitigation measures where we recognise, I hope, where
11:56 another government has gone wrong, and we're trying to step in and alleviate some of that.
12:01 And the way that we're doing this in Scotland, I think, is best summed up by our social security
12:05 system.
12:06 Dignity, fairness, respect.
12:08 That's the type of society you want to have.
12:10 So it's the type of public services we should be delivering as a government.
12:14 And I hope that demonstrates to people that they shouldn't lose faith in all politicians.
12:18 They should selectively do that, and then choose at the ballot box who they want to
12:22 have faith in, because someone will make decisions in their lives.
12:26 We need to listen to them when we're elected, but they need to have that voice to make sure
12:30 that they take their decisions at the ballot box, so they get the politicians that they
12:36 deserve, and that they can have faith in.
12:38 Last question is linked to that, is that sometimes politics can feel a wee bit like it's tinkering
12:44 around the edges of the big changes that need to happen, and tackling poverty is sort of
12:50 a case in point for that.
12:53 But the Scottish Parliament has done big things.
12:55 You've mentioned when you were involved in it, in the creation of the Scottish child
12:58 payment.
12:59 What are the other big things that you think the Scottish government can deliver?
13:03 Well, one of the examples that we've already delivered on is the changes we've made to
13:08 affordable childcare.
13:10 When we got into government, childcare was something that was very much for the minority
13:17 within Scotland.
13:18 We're now at the position where there's 1140 hours of free childcare for three, fours and
13:24 eligible twos.
13:25 That's an enormous difference.
13:27 That is a transformative agenda.
13:29 Now, we know we've got to do more on that.
13:32 That's why the First Minister has announced further progress on what we can do for ones
13:36 and other two year olds to make sure that we're supporting children and parents and
13:41 carers to get into the labour market or get into study, learn new skills, whatever they
13:46 want to do.
13:47 So we can make a real difference within Scotland, and I think we have done that.
13:54 Minimum income is another one where we're very keen to push the boundaries as much as
13:58 we can of the powers of the Scottish Parliament to see what we can do.
14:02 We've already looked at universal basic income, but unfortunately experts have said we can't
14:06 do that under devolution.
14:08 We don't have the powers to even run a pilot on that.
14:12 That's one of my big frustrations for this, and that's why I would say that we do feel,
14:17 I think, as a government that we're doing this with one hand tied behind our back.
14:22 Limited powers, pretty much a fixed budget, although we are very much looking at progressive
14:26 taxation.
14:27 So our determination to tackle poverty is also one of the reasons why I want independence,
14:32 because with the full powers of an independent nation, we can have a full social security
14:37 system that's based on fairness, dignity and respect.
14:40 We can have control over employment law.
14:42 We can look at the areas that the Parliament doesn't have the power to do just now, but
14:47 we can make such a difference with.
14:49 So we've shown what we can do in Scotland.
14:52 We've shown what this Parliament can do.
14:54 How much more we could do is one of the things which I hope we can live up to in future years
15:00 ahead.
15:01 Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.
15:03 It's been great to hear from you.
15:05 I'm sure your ears will be burning on Monday while we discuss what you've said and what's
15:09 in our report then.
15:11 But thanks again.
15:12 We look forward to working with you and the wider Scottish Government on delivering a
15:16 Scotland free from poverty that I know we all want.
15:19 Thank you.
15:20 Thanks.
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