Are animals talking? In a manner of speaking, they are. They may not use language the way humans use language but they do communicate and share information constantly. In a recent piece in the New York Times, science journalist and critically acclaimed author Sonia Shah wrote, “For centuries, the linguistic utterances of Homo Sapiens have been positioned as unique in nature, justifying our dominion over other species and shrouding the evolution of language in mystery. Now, experts in linguistics, biology and cognitive science suspect that components of language might be shared across species, illuminating the inner lives of animals in ways that could help stitch language into their evolutionary history — and our own.”
To understand the question of language beyond humans, Mayank Chhaya Reports spoke to Sonia Shah, author of the critically acclaimed ‘The Next Great Migration: The Beauty and Terror of Life on the Move.”
To understand the question of language beyond humans, Mayank Chhaya Reports spoke to Sonia Shah, author of the critically acclaimed ‘The Next Great Migration: The Beauty and Terror of Life on the Move.”
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 Are animals talking? In a manner of speaking, they are.
00:15 They may not use language the way humans use language,
00:19 but they do communicate and share information constantly.
00:23 The long-standing view that language is the greatest
00:27 differentiator between Homo sapiens and the rest of the sentient world
00:31 is undergoing a significant change within the scientific community.
00:36 In a recent piece in the New York Times, science journalist
00:40 and critically acclaimed author Sonia Shah wrote, and I quote,
00:45 "For centuries, the linguistic utterances of Homo sapiens
00:49 have been positioned as unique in nature,
00:53 justifying our dominion over other species and shouting
00:57 the evolution of language in mystery. Now experts in linguistics,
01:01 biology, and cognitive science suspect that components of language
01:06 might be shared across species, illuminating the inner lives
01:11 of animals in ways that could help stitch language into their
01:16 evolutionary history and our own." Unquote.
01:21 To understand the question of language beyond humans,
01:25 Mayank Shah's report spoke to Sonia Shah, the author most recently
01:30 of the critically acclaimed The Next Great Migration,
01:34 The Beauty and Terror of Life on the Move.
01:39 Welcome to Mayank Shah's report. It's a great pleasure to have you, Sonia.
01:45 Great to be here.
01:47 Let me start with a broad question. Are animals talking?
01:54 I guess it depends what you mean by talking.
01:58 Are they using language the way we use language?
02:02 I don't think that any scientist would say--
02:07 I don't think many scientists would say yes to that, but I think most
02:11 would agree, of course, that they are communicating.
02:14 They are sharing information all the time, and in some cases,
02:19 doing so intentionally in a way that's similar to the way that we
02:26 intentionally communicate things to each other.
02:30 We use symbols. We use representations to communicate with each other.
02:38 And there's some evidence that other species do that too,
02:41 which makes sense because, of course, we all evolved from other species.
02:46 Language has always been this mysterious behavior we have that
02:52 linguists and biologists for a long time thought,
02:55 "Okay, we don't know where it came from because there's no precursors
02:58 in the animal world," but that is starting to change.
03:03 You write in your New York Times piece that the cognitive and moral divide
03:09 between humanity and the rest of the animal world has eroded.
03:13 How significant is that erosion?
03:17 I mean, I think the fact that there are linguists now who will say that,
03:24 yes, there are components of human language in other animals'
03:31 communication systems is a sign of massive erosion.
03:36 Because if you go back just a couple hundred years ago,
03:39 the Linguistics Society of Paris in 1866 said,
03:46 "We don't want to even discuss how language evolved or how language might be
03:53 related to anything in the animal world."
03:55 They actually banned it.
03:56 They wouldn't hear any papers on it at all because it was just considered
04:01 an outlandishly irrelevant question, that language was just so special that
04:07 you would never even look for any counterpart in the animal world.
04:10 That was almost offensive.
04:14 So I think what we're seeing today where there's linguists who are actually
04:18 getting grants with primatologists and ornithologists and this divide has been
04:23 breached, I think it's a real reversal historically.
04:28 Yeah. Are we then moving towards the view that language may not necessarily be a
04:34 uniquely human superpower?
04:36 I mean, I think my takeaway from having done this research,
04:41 reporting the last six months,
04:43 and this is also connected to my larger book project that I've been,
04:47 so I've been looking at these questions more broadly.
04:49 I, sorry, where were we going with this?
04:56 What was the question again?
04:58 No, whether it's language is necessarily a uniquely human superpower.
05:04 That seems to be changing.
05:06 I think it could be unique to us, but not unique in any unique way.
05:16 That is to say, maybe it is something that we are particularly adept with and
05:22 that we have developed, you know, along this,
05:26 into the complexity of which we use it today.
05:29 There may not be other species that do that in the same way, but you know,
05:33 the whole definition of a species essentially is that this is a unique group
05:37 of individuals, right?
05:40 So the fact that we might have some unique characteristics doesn't mean that
05:46 you can't still trace the evolution of this behavior and find counterparts in
05:51 the natural world.
05:52 So the elephant's trunk is a great example that also is unique to elephants.
05:57 There aren't other creatures that have a trunk like an elephant,
06:01 but that's not to say that, you know,
06:04 God must have given the elephant his trunk.
06:06 We still can have a naturalistic explanation for why elephants have trunks.
06:10 So that is, you know, maybe language is something that is unique to humans,
06:15 but the fact that we're already seeing all these other,
06:20 that language is a multi-component system, right?
06:23 There's lots of different parts to it and lots of different layers to what
06:27 makes language language.
06:29 And we see those in other species.
06:31 So it's not this thing that kind of burst out in whole cloth and was given just
06:36 to humans, right?
06:38 Like there's pieces of it that we see in the natural world now.
06:42 But on the other hand, it strikes me that if you,
06:45 if you talk about 300,000 years of modern humans, as we know it,
06:50 if you compare the sheer evolutionary contrast between the humans and a
06:56 species and the rest of the animal world, aren't we,
06:59 I'm not trying to advocate anthropocentric hubris here,
07:03 but aren't we struck by the remarkable contrast between these two worlds in
07:08 terms of the way we have evolved and the animal world has evolved when it
07:13 comes to language?
07:15 I mean,
07:16 language allows us to do collective decision-making in a way that is,
07:23 is very powerful.
07:24 You know,
07:25 we don't all have to know each other intimately to exchange a lot of
07:29 information that's complex.
07:32 But, you know,
07:33 there's other species that are more successful than us.
07:36 I mean, there's just, if you look at biomass, you know,
07:40 insects and microbes and other species that are much more successful in,
07:46 in just sheer numbers than we are.
07:50 Other species that occupy more of the planet than we do.
07:54 I mean, there's certain places we can't live and there's places, you know,
07:57 there's bacteria that live in the, you know,
07:59 sea vents and hydroth-- you know,
08:02 in these places that we couldn't, we couldn't go to at all.
08:05 There are other species that have caused as much disruption and damage as
08:11 we have, you know,
08:12 if you look into the deep past with anaerobic bacteria and they changed the
08:17 whole climate and actually nearly went extinct themselves. And, you know,
08:21 so, I mean, I think there's, it depends on how you look at it, right?
08:25 Like from our human perspective, like we just don't value the things that
08:30 other species accomplish.
08:31 So the fact that a termite can build this structure that is so complex and is
08:37 many, many, many times larger than its body, right? Like it's, it doesn't,
08:43 what the termite can do with its structures doesn't,
08:45 our buildings don't compare at all and they have natural cooling and heating
08:50 and, you know, there's just all, they have different chambers, you know,
08:53 it's all, it's very complex.
08:56 But we just don't, we don't really,
08:59 we don't really judge them by the same standards as we judge ourselves.
09:03 So I think it's always kind of apples and oranges. Also, even, I mean,
09:07 even embedded in the question you asked is this notion that, you know,
09:13 we're talking about humans, which is one species.
09:16 And then you want to compare this one species to animals,
09:20 which is millions of species, right? So, I mean, it's just,
09:25 it's like you take purple out of the rainbow and say, well,
09:28 how is purple different from all the other colors? I mean, yes,
09:31 it is a different color, but you know, it's,
09:34 it's not like the only color that has those unique characteristics.
09:38 Yeah. I was being deliberately provocative. Well, let me flip it then.
09:42 It's entirely possible that the species that you've mentioned,
09:46 they are far along,
09:48 sophistication than we humans are.
09:52 Then we just don't seem to have the faculty to recognize that perhaps we are
09:57 dumber than we think.
09:58 I think we're just extremely self-centered and, and, you know, I,
10:04 when we say we, like, I, I think it's worth questioning who is we, right?
10:09 Because I don't think, I mean, we don't know, but to me,
10:14 to me, the idea that humans are very special and that, you know,
10:19 other creatures don't have any of these special qualities that we have and
10:22 then what they can do is, you know,
10:24 nothing is insignificant compared to what we can do is,
10:29 you know, it's,
10:30 it's a way of thinking that emerged in a certain part of the world at a
10:34 certain part of time and has become extremely influential, of course,
10:38 and has spread across most of the planet.
10:42 But that's not to say there aren't other traditions that didn't see things
10:46 very differently. And some of those traditions are still intact. Right. So,
10:50 you know,
10:51 What about the so-called human revolution of some 40 or 50,000 years ago,
10:58 which seems at this point, even the way you have written,
11:02 it seems exaggerated at this point. Do you agree?
11:05 Yeah. I mean,
11:06 I'm not an expert in that in the sort of archeological and genetic findings
11:10 that have put that story together, but it's very interesting that expert,
11:14 many experts are now saying that this, you know, and this is big,
11:17 the idea of a human spark is that, you know, 40,000, 50,000 years ago,
11:23 something happened in human evolution where we just started taking off and we
11:28 just sort of, you know,
11:30 left behind the evolutionary trajectory that had kind of constrained us and
11:35 all the other species up until that time and something kind of set us free.
11:40 And you see this great flowering of human civilization and art and culture and
11:45 language and all this stuff. And, you know,
11:47 it's not to say that that didn't happen, that did happen,
11:49 but was that a total departure? You know,
11:53 was there some biological thing that happened,
11:56 which has never been found mind you, like there's a,
11:59 there's been lots of theories of maybe it was this, maybe it was that,
12:02 maybe it was this gene, maybe it was this cognitive, you know,
12:05 something happened in the brain, one little thing change and everything.
12:08 You know, there's all these theories,
12:10 but nothing has really been proven of like, well, this is, you know,
12:13 this is the culprit that made that change.
12:16 But what has been found is a lot of continuity. You know,
12:20 there was this idea that our other hominid ancestors like Neanderthals must
12:27 have been very different from us. Right. That, you know, they,
12:32 they were completely, well, that we diverged entirely from them. Right.
12:36 That was part of this thinking. And then, you know,
12:40 what we've learned from genetics is that we did not diverge at all.
12:45 In fact, they are our ancestors. We had families with them.
12:49 Their genes are in our genes to this day,
12:52 which to me also reflects on the idea of language.
12:56 And we don't know if Neanderthals had language,
12:59 but it's hard to imagine as much, you know,
13:04 as much families that were made between like this level of intermingling
13:09 that would leave their genes, like studied throughout our genomes,
13:13 that that would have happened between.
13:15 A species that was linguistic and a species that was non-linguistic.
13:21 You know, I mean, I was, I was talking to an,
13:23 a neurobiologist named Eric Jarvis and he said, and he studies birds,
13:30 vocal learning in birds. And he said,
13:32 there's never a case where a song, a bird, a bird, like bird species can,
13:37 you know, subspecies or different species can sometimes have.
13:40 Families together.
13:43 Have offspring together, but it never happens that a,
13:46 a vocal learning species, a species that, you know,
13:49 has songs and can like imitate sounds and use sounds in this like complex
13:53 communicative way.
13:55 Will ever have offspring with a species that doesn't,
14:00 a species that just makes the one call in innate it's instinctive.
14:04 It's always the same. It just doesn't happen. And, you know, as a linguist,
14:08 a member of a linguistic species myself, he can kind of,
14:11 that kind of makes sense, right? Like, so, you know, then,
14:15 then you wonder, okay, well, what did set us apart?
14:19 And, and, and if we just keep getting more and more evidence that,
14:23 well, there's continuity here, there's continuity here.
14:26 There's continuity here again, we're seeing continuity.
14:29 And yet we cling to this idea that we diverged.
14:32 With no evidence for what might've accounted for that. Then, you know,
14:36 you have to start to wonder.
14:38 I agree. Yeah.
14:39 How do you look at the question of a time lag between the appearance of
14:44 anatomical modernity and perceived behavioral modernity?
14:49 I mean, I don't, I don't know.
14:51 There's lots of research going on on that of what might've happened.
14:54 There's the one theory that I.
14:57 Talk about in the piece a bit is this idea of domestication and self
15:01 domestication, which is, I mean, it's a terrible term. Like it,
15:05 I think the term is actually very confusing, but.
15:10 The general idea is that.
15:14 When, when animals become domesticated,
15:17 meaning they're not aggressive and reactive. Right.
15:21 So like a wolf stops being aggressive towards a human.
15:26 And slowly becomes, you know,
15:29 calmer around humans and they're able to live together more closely,
15:32 more intimately.
15:34 And eventually a wolf becomes what we know as a dog.
15:38 Right.
15:39 Even though I think, you know,
15:40 there's people who say that they're actually the same species.
15:43 So there's just something else has changed.
15:45 But once that happens,
15:47 there's a whole suite of other changes that also happen,
15:50 which biologists have noted, like, I think since Darwin's time,
15:54 that.
15:55 They become.
15:58 Like their foreheads get bigger, their eyes get bigger,
16:01 their ears get floppy. They get spots on their fur. There's this whole,
16:04 it's called a complex of a whole series of other seemingly unrelated
16:10 changes happen when you have these, this domestication process happens.
16:15 And maybe a better way of talking about domestication is just, you know,
16:18 this.
16:19 The species become more social, like less,
16:22 less aggressive towards sort of outsiders.
16:27 And that's been seen in lots of different species. So not just, you know,
16:30 wolves and dogs, but lots of other cases as well.
16:33 And, and one theory was out.
16:35 Maybe that happened to humans because we compared to Neanderthals or other
16:40 ancient hominids.
16:42 We, we exhibit those changes like the,
16:45 the changes that made a wolf between a wolf and a dog is similar to the kind
16:50 of changes you see between the ancient humans and the modern humans.
16:53 So these anatomical changes, right.
16:55 It's also things like you know, the, the stature, smaller stature,
17:00 smaller brains, actually less dimorphism between male and female,
17:06 you know, there's just a whole bunch of like really specific changes that
17:09 happen.
17:11 And it also there's a new theory now that as that happens,
17:16 that that might sort of somehow facilitate more use,
17:21 more language like use in your communication.
17:24 And they've seen that with.
17:27 In different bird species that a bird species that was domesticated for its
17:34 plumage. So completely unrelated to, you know,
17:37 how it's saying or anything.
17:39 It was domesticated for its plumage.
17:41 It was bred to have white, you know,
17:43 white plumage instead of whatever it was in the wild.
17:46 And they found that that, you know,
17:49 unexpectedly changed the way it's saying.
17:52 And so these birds that have been domesticated in this way.
17:57 Had become more so, you know, a calmer, less, you know,
18:00 they had less predator pressure, right.
18:02 So they're not reactive all the time. It changed their song.
18:05 So they started singing in more innovative ways, more complex ways.
18:09 They wouldn't mimic exactly what their tutors taught them.
18:13 They would, you know, change it up. And it was, you know,
18:17 it was more inventive.
18:19 And they've seen similar changes in communication styles between wolves and
18:24 dogs. One of the.
18:25 Kind of.
18:27 One of the sort of prerequisites for communicating with another individual.
18:32 Is this idea of joint attention that, that is.
18:36 You know, if I point to something, that individual's going to look at it.
18:40 And so when I start saying something or making some sounds and it's going to
18:44 recognize, okay, we're both looking at this one thing.
18:46 We're going to talk about this one thing.
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27:21 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:22 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:23 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:24 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:25 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:26 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:27 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:55 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:56 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:57 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:58 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
27:59 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:00 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:01 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:02 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:03 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:04 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:05 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:06 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:07 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:08 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:09 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:10 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:26 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:50 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:51 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:52 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:53 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:54 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:55 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:56 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:57 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:58 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
28:59 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:00 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:01 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:02 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:03 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:04 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:05 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:33 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:34 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:35 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:36 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:37 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:38 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:39 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:40 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:41 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:42 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:43 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:44 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:45 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:46 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:47 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
29:48 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:16 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:17 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:18 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:19 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:20 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:21 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:22 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:23 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:24 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:25 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:26 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:27 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:28 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:29 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:30 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:31 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
30:59 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:00 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:01 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:02 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:03 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:04 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:05 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:06 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:07 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:08 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:09 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:10 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:11 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:12 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:13 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:14 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
31:35 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:01 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:04 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:05 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:06 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:07 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:08 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:09 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:10 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:11 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:12 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:13 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:14 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:15 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:16 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:17 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:18 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:19 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:20 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:21 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:22 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:23 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:24 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:25 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:26 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:27 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:28 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:29 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:30 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:31 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:32 And then it's going to look at the other thing.
32:33 And then it's going to look at the other thing.