More than 100 schools across the United Kingdom have been ordered to close over fears that potentially dangerous concrete used in their construction between the 1950s and the mid-90s could lead to structural collapse.
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00:00 Ian Watkinson, you're the National Lead for Health and Safety with the National Education
00:05 Union and you're not particularly happy are you with the way the situation is being handled
00:09 over rack concrete as it's known, this material that can collapse without warning when it
00:14 reaches the end of its natural lifespan. But the government for its part says that we're
00:18 only in this position with schools being told to close at short notice and uncertainty around
00:23 others while they're investigated because they've taken such a cautious approach. If
00:27 you've got an interest in health and safety surely that's an approach you'd advocate
00:31 isn't it? Well it's last minute, it's incredibly last minute. The government's known about
00:38 the problems with rack for a long time. There was a classroom ceiling collapse back in 2018
00:47 and following that there was some action taken and a self-assessment survey sent out to schools
00:53 and the government appears to have been trying to gather information because of that situation
00:59 since then. However for things to change two days or three days before the start of term
01:05 is an absolute disgrace. It leaves schools and headteachers in an impossible situation.
01:12 It's leaving parents and children trying to make different arrangements because of this
01:17 last minute announcement that the schools are going to have to be checked. Now I completely
01:23 respect if there's a concern about safety then absolutely the schools have got to be
01:27 checked and we need to know that it's safe for children and staff to be in those schools
01:33 but the government have known for a long time that there's a problem so leaving it until
01:37 the last minute is frankly ridiculous. Have you heard of concrete problems? No I haven't
01:42 heard of it no. Were you shocked too? After you told me about it and that it can collapse
01:47 schools then yeah it's pretty shocking if it could put a lot of people in danger there
01:52 so yeah. And if schools have to close for it what do you think of that? Yeah you've
01:57 got to prioritise children's education especially after things like Covid so yeah it's a really
02:01 big problem that needs solving. They didn't know that the risk had changed did it? That's
02:06 what's changed over the course of the past few weeks that rack that wasn't deemed to
02:10 be in a critical state was considered safe for now whereas things have happened over
02:16 the summer particularly the collapse of one particular beam that have indicated that even
02:21 rack that isn't deemed critical might not be safe to be left for any length of time
02:26 so they had to act didn't they? They had no choice. It's right that they've acted if they've
02:32 finally recognised that there is a critical risk but those critical risks were identified
02:37 way back and only this morning or yesterday evening a former civil servant, senior civil
02:44 servant described a situation where it was crystal clear that there were hundreds potentially
02:51 more schools at a critical risk of collapse and a critical and imminent risk of collapse
02:59 and that was several years ago and I'm sure some of your listeners and readers will have
03:05 been hearing about Rishi Sunak's response to that as he was the Chancellor at the time
03:10 and rather than investing in the remedial work that needed to be done he slashed the
03:15 budget and cut it more than in half so absolutely safety first of course safety is paramount
03:23 but parents, teachers, staff, head teachers need to know that their school is safe for
03:30 them to work in and for children to learn in and what's equally perplexing is that there's
03:36 a marked reluctance to tell us where the schools that they actually know about so far and they
03:41 don't know about all of them they won't tell us where they are. Anything was built in there
03:45 between the 60s and 80s and the material used in the industry then was not what it is today,
03:53 it's not sophisticated as it is today and of course technology and everything has improved
03:57 so I'm not surprised when you look at some of the ageing buildings there might be some
04:01 issues. Would you say you were worried about it yourself? Not because I've got nobody that's
04:07 at that age anymore so it might be children who've grown up and gone, they've got grandchildren
04:11 but they're not ready for school yet but it is a concern in terms of when you look at
04:15 the spillover of academic growth in young people after Covid and now you've been interrupted
04:21 again so what's that going to look like in 20-25 years time, it's a worry. So do you
04:27 think perhaps they might be rushing into closing without thinking about the academic impact?
04:32 Not really no but obviously they just need to think about where they can relocate these
04:37 children and educate their educational needs, that should be the priority. There is space
04:42 even in Preston where, in front of them two buildings where they're safe enough to rehouse
04:48 education at an emergency level and then think about a long-term strategy but you know God
04:54 forbid there's any accidents or any lives lost so it's probably a wise decision to postpone
05:00 the return but we must by now prioritise a plan B for where they can rehouse education
05:08 for these young people. It's been reported that there's 450 schools where RAC is suspected
05:14 based on an initial self-assessment survey but they haven't yet had a follow-up survey
05:19 done. The Education Secretary said on the BBC this morning that those surveys will be
05:24 completed within the next two weeks. What do you think should happen to those schools
05:29 in that fortnight interim period? Well it's, yeah, so if we've got a school where RAC is
05:37 suspected and there is that critical risk of an imminent collapse then it's got to be
05:44 a safety first approach. So in those schools where they've had the extra surveys and they're
05:49 having to either partially close or fully close and move learning regrettably online
05:55 for a few days in some of those schools or into quarter cabins then if that's the case
05:58 then that needs to happen. It's got to be a safety first approach but I'm not sure that
06:03 we recognise the numbers. 450 is a scary amount but Gillian Keegan also made reference to
06:08 10% of the entire school estate not having the details on 10% of those so that's over
06:15 2,000 schools. So there's different numbers being bandied about. We need to know where
06:20 those schools are, have they been surveyed and if they have been surveyed and got RAC
06:24 what's going to happen about it? That 450 figure I should say it's not known whether
06:29 the RAC within the suspected will be in a critical state because the follow-up survey
06:34 hasn't been done but when you say a safety first approach what would that mean to you
06:39 closing those 450 as a precaution even if they might not contain critical state RAC?
06:47 Well it's not known isn't it? It's that uncertainty Paul. So if you're not sure then it's got
06:51 to be a safety first approach. If there's any doubt whatsoever that a school could,
06:57 is at imminent risk of collapse or partial collapse, whether that's a ceiling coming
07:01 in or something along those lines which are the things that have happened so far that
07:07 are known about then it's got to be safety first. There's been massive disruption with
07:11 education throughout COVID obviously and not forgetting that we had some unbelievably last
07:17 minute government announcements around that time as well but it's got to be safety first.
07:22 At the same time these sort of plans should have been in place for this, plans should
07:27 have been in place for this a long time before now, two days, three days before the start
07:32 isn't good enough. It is really shocking that the council haven't
07:41 done or whoever it is haven't done anything about it especially since they built it knowing
07:47 that they were only supposed to last 30 years and they've lasted a lot longer than that
07:52 and obviously our children's safety is very, very important and I really hope that they
07:59 do something about it really quickly so that everyone's safe including the children and
08:06 the teachers and all that. So if schools are getting closed do you think
08:10 that's needed? Yes, just for the safety of the children and
08:17 all of that, just for the safety really. I do think closing the schools is necessary
08:23 just to keep everyone safe and it's unfortunate that we have to close it and that children's
08:29 invaluable learning time is being taken away but yeah.
08:33 They had also mentioned hospitals may be affected, would that be something you'd want to research
08:37 or know about more? Yeah I can't comment on that because I can't
08:40 see the link really, how that's going to work unless the hospitals are all buildings and
08:47 they need refurbishment or replacing as well so if that's what you're talking about that
08:52 makes sense, any building that's got such old material used on it there's a risk of
09:00 injury or hurting anybody disappearing for that reason.
09:05 Coincidentally I've known about it for a while but that's probably policy, procedures
09:10 and protocols that slow down the decision and that should be a part of the look at as
09:15 well. Had you heard about the issues with Concordie?
09:18 I hadn't no, I wasn't sure, I've never heard of it. I heard about the school closures but
09:23 I wasn't sure why they were closing. So now you know it's because of that are
09:27 you surprised? Yeah I'm a bit surprised, a bit shocked, you
09:30 wouldn't think that they'd be so careless I would imagine. You've got to think, they're
09:36 planning on building a school, it's not a short term building, you'd think they'd take
09:40 a lot more care and thought into what they were putting down in terms of the concrete.
09:46 So now that it's come out that they know it's not particularly safe, what do you think should
09:50 be done? I mean ideally you'd think they'd change
09:54 it, obviously that'd be quite expensive but at the end of the day it's the safety of the
09:58 next generation isn't it, so it's important that they are kept safe in schools particularly.
10:03 So schools as you've said are closing, do you think that is needed?
10:06 Absolutely yeah, obviously the safety is the most important thing I think.
10:10 Just to push you on that then, safety first approach, does that mean all 450 should shut
10:14 or? I don't know enough about those 450 schools
10:18 Paul and I know you're pushing me and you want me to say they should be shut or they
10:21 shouldn't shut but without knowing the full details on those schools, but if there's any
10:25 doubts, if there's a chance that those schools could collapse or they're at a critical risk
10:30 of imminent collapse, then it's got to be a safety first approach and the safety of
10:36 children and staff has to come first. So those schools, if it's 450 schools that
10:42 we know about, I suspect it's a lot more than that, then they have to be prioritised and
10:47 we need to know if those schools are safe to be open or not.
10:51 Just looking slightly to the longer term finally, what do you want to happen next because this
10:55 is obviously going to be a situation that's going to take some resolving over quite a
10:59 long period of time isn't it? It is, it's going to take a long time and
11:04 it's going to need serious investments. The school's capital budget has been underfunded
11:09 for well over a decade, they're billions short of spending the amount of money that's needed
11:15 to bring the school estate up to scratch. Asbestos exists, is present in around 90%
11:22 of all schools, so that's going to create a huge problem in itself for all those schools
11:27 where RAC remedial work needs to take place. But we're looking for a programme of asbestos
11:34 removal and making schools safe in that way alongside this RAC situation. So it's going
11:39 to take a massive investment, but it is time, it's long overdue time for this to happen.
11:46 There really shouldn't be anything more important than the safety of children learning at school.
11:52 Ian Watkinson, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.
11:56 You're welcome.