Mujahid Hussain, Pakistani journalist and author in conversation with Col Anil Bhat (retd)
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00:00 Welcome to SAM Conversation, an online program of South Asia Monitor.
00:16 Thank you.
00:19 It is a pleasure to welcome today Mr. Mujahid Hussain, a very bold writer from Pakistan
00:33 whose first book, Punjabi Taliban, I had the pleasure of reviewing.
00:41 It so happened that writers like Mr. Mujahid Hussain, they cannot get their books published
00:54 in Pakistan.
00:55 So India is one of the places where they come to or they send their books to be published.
01:04 And Punjabi Taliban was being published by the same publisher who published my book after
01:13 Abbottabad, Terror to Turmoil in Pakistan.
01:20 When Mr. Hussain read the review of his book by me, he then requested the publisher, he
01:30 said, the publisher informed him that I too am writing a book titled After Abbottabad,
01:39 Terror to Turmoil in Pakistan.
01:42 Then Mr. Hussain requested for a little bit about the book.
01:48 When that was sent to him, what he wrote became the ideal foreword for After Abbottabad, Terror
01:59 to Turmoil in Pakistan.
02:01 We are now going to discuss his latest book, Turmoil in Pakistan.
02:07 Mr. Hussain, will you please start with, let's say, which is the period that you are covering
02:20 in your book?
02:21 When did you start this?
02:22 Mr. Bhatt, first of all, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak.
02:28 I have started this book, basically the title of this book is Diwaliya Pakistan, we call
02:35 it that in Urdu, that we have become Diwaliya.
02:38 Diwaliya, Diwaliya has come out.
02:40 Diwaliya is not economically, it is socially.
02:43 So, the title of this book in Urdu is Diwaliya Pakistan, the story of the Diwali of the state,
02:53 politics and society.
02:55 I have written a complete story that why we as a country, as a society, as a nation, as
03:03 a nation, as a society, we are not celebrating Diwali.
03:08 Why are we celebrating Diwali as a country, as a society, how are we celebrating Diwali
03:15 and what are the reasons?
03:17 And what is the situation now?
03:19 And how are our conditions getting better?
03:22 And as a state, can Pakistan remain intact?
03:25 And I will keep telling you this, because we have a very simple discussion on television
03:33 and generally the discussion goes on in such a way that the scores are settled with each
03:43 other, we do not talk about the outside.
03:47 So, Bhatt Saheb, the international law in today's world is so flexible and such that states
03:54 break within their boundaries.
03:56 Their boundaries do not break.
03:58 Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Syria, their boundaries are there.
04:03 They have not gone an inch here and there.
04:07 But these states have broken.
04:10 And God forbid, I feel that we are also going in the same direction that our borders have
04:17 no danger from India, Iran or China.
04:20 We have built it ourselves.
04:22 And the kind of conditions we have created, the kind of economy we have, and the kind of
04:29 groups we have established, sometimes it is the army of the Taiba, sometimes it is the
04:36 movement of the Labaik, sometimes it is the Punjabi Taliban, sometimes it is the movement
04:42 of the Taliban Pakistan.
04:44 And this year, we have also seen that the situation has improved.
04:49 Pakistan is a free country.
04:52 And with all this situation, many things are not under our control.
04:57 And what is the result of that?
05:00 The result is that today in your country, today in Pakistan, there is no law and order.
05:07 Today people hear a wrong announcement that Christians have blasphemed the Quran.
05:13 The entire Christian community is burned.
05:16 The house is burned.
05:19 There is no government.
05:21 Your police cannot reach there.
05:23 Politicians are completely helpless.
05:25 And the second thing is why this happened.
05:28 This happened because our establishment unfortunately wanted to keep its hold on the state.
05:36 So it has created such a group.
05:39 Excuse me, when you say establishment, Hussain sahib, it means that only the political establishment,
05:56 the ruling force.
06:00 The main role of the establishment is the army.
06:10 Its army has its own interests.
06:14 Now the army is not just a fighting army.
06:18 Now it is an army that is a business partner.
06:21 The army has the largest property in the country.
06:30 The army produces urea, sugar mills, popcorn, and has land.
06:41 So it is not just an army that protects the borders of the country.
06:51 It is an army that has a share in the resources of the country.
06:54 And it is increasing them.
06:57 Many books have come about this.
07:00 Dr. Ayesha Seekar's book, Military Incorporation, everyone has read it.
07:04 It is a commercial book.
07:11 It is a book that is a business.
07:13 It could be in India or in other countries.
07:16 But in our country, it is a business.
07:20 In India, the army has no relationship with politics or business.
07:42 The army is only involved in the duty it is assigned.
07:52 But we have this innovation that we have business.
07:56 We also have a DHA, Defense Housing Authority,
08:01 which has made great residential colonies in different cities.
08:06 The reason for this is that the establishment has not hidden anything.
08:16 The establishment makes governments in Pakistan.
08:20 The establishment breaks governments.
08:23 If the establishment is angry, then the governments are also released.
08:28 And the establishment is not only this, it is so powerful that sometimes it creates monsters.
08:42 For example, the extremism, sectarianism, or the Talibanization,
08:51 when you have helped the non-state actors,
08:58 and you have given them money, training, and you have tried to find your strategic depth through them,
09:04 then there is no benefit in Afghanistan.
09:07 What happened in Kashmir is in front of you and in front of us.
09:11 And the second thing is that, like our former Prime Minister Imran Khan,
09:22 if the establishment had not been angry with him and had not wanted to release him,
09:29 then Imran Khan would have been in the worst political condition after a year.
09:35 Because people were fed up with him and he has no experience.
09:42 Even now, when he talks to Imran Khan, he has a lot of youngster thinking.
09:48 People don't think in depth, they know.
09:52 I can also say that when the Prime Minister was elected for the first time,
10:06 we said that he was good at playing cricket.
10:10 Now that he has become a politician, we said that in the beginning.
10:17 And when we saw his performance, we said that what we thought was right.
10:26 He was very good at cricket and he should have stayed there.
10:32 He shouldn't have come here.
10:35 This is just a bad luck.
10:37 What can we do?
10:39 The establishment has brought him down and made him a hero.
10:47 Today he has become a hero and is in jail.
10:50 And the surprising thing is that he still has no plan.
10:55 Even today he wants this establishment to somehow reconcile with him and then bring him back in power.
11:03 Even today he wants this.
11:06 And the other Nawaz Sharif, who is sitting outside,
11:12 his whole life has been spent with the establishment.
11:16 Whenever he was removed, the establishment removed him.
11:19 Whenever they brought him back, the establishment brought him back.
11:22 The relationship with the establishment that Shabaz Sharif had,
11:26 that is not a secret from anyone.
11:29 They have brought him back.
11:31 The respected Asif Ali Zardari, who shows that he is an anti-establishment,
11:38 and that he is a very liberal and secular kind of person,
11:42 he is not at all like that.
11:44 He is also a complete trader.
11:47 The president who has been for five years, he has also been a trader.
11:50 Everyone knows.
11:52 Now again he is a trader.
11:54 The market is hot.
11:56 The market is hot.
12:01 Yes, 10% or something.
12:04 Now 10% is an old thing.
12:08 Now people have reached up to 50%.
12:11 You will be surprised.
12:14 It is a very sad thing.
12:16 Because we often see that Pakistan,
12:21 the common people,
12:26 the common people we meet,
12:30 the old bond is still there.
12:38 Now if one of us goes to Pakistan,
12:43 maybe it doesn't make much difference to see me,
12:49 but if a Sikh goes,
12:51 because he is wearing a turban,
12:53 he is more visible.
12:57 So many of our Sikh friends have told us that
13:02 sometimes they don't want to take money from shops.
13:08 I mean, is there still so much love?
13:13 There is, but
13:16 I keep looking at what you have said.
13:20 There are many forums that
13:23 unite the Sikhs of East Punjab and West Punjab.
13:29 The people who were separated,
13:31 who were partitioned during the partition,
13:34 some people were separated.
13:36 So they go there and settle down or settle down here.
13:38 They are united and this is a good thing.
13:42 I think this is good.
13:44 And remember another thing,
13:47 this concept that sometimes goes from Pakistan,
13:51 that there are Hindus who are against them,
13:55 this is not the case in Punjab.
13:58 I want to tell you this with absolute certainty,
14:03 that sometimes we get such news from Sindh,
14:06 that there is a forced conversion,
14:08 and that too, wherever there is some videraism, it is there.
14:11 There is Hindu population in Punjab.
14:14 I am talking about my village.
14:16 My village is right on the Indian-Pakistan border.
14:19 There are 35 Hindu homes in our village,
14:22 which are still present today,
14:24 and they are being run as if they are being run by siblings.
14:27 My daai is a Hindu,
14:29 my elder brother's daai,
14:31 you can consider him a daai,
14:33 he is a Hindu.
14:35 They are respected a lot.
14:37 They work for us.
14:39 They are our partners.
14:41 I will give a small example and move forward.
14:44 There are 35 Hindu homes in our village,
14:46 and 250 Muslims.
14:48 Obviously, there are more Muslims.
14:50 When a Hindu girl gets married,
14:53 it is a tradition in our village
14:55 that everyone gives a gift to the girl according to their status.
14:59 Someone gives a vase,
15:01 someone gives a slime machine,
15:03 someone is giving a vase,
15:05 someone is giving a charpai,
15:07 and it has happened a thousand times
15:09 that we are the landowners,
15:11 we are the wealthy people of the village,
15:13 our daughters do not get as much dowry as our Hindu villagers,
15:19 because the whole village gives dowry.
15:22 And they do the same.
15:24 When they get married,
15:26 they get a Muslim to cook for the Muslims.
15:30 So, the people who have distributed this,
15:36 or those who want to distribute it,
15:38 they are in a very bad situation.
15:40 The situation that you are facing.
15:42 We accept the partition.
15:44 Okay, the partition has been done.
15:46 There are two countries.
15:48 But the 25 crore people who live here,
15:51 don't they have the right to live a better life?
15:55 Absolutely.
15:58 And secondly,
16:00 how many of us want to fight with India,
16:02 or India wants to fight with us,
16:04 but does not want to fight.
16:06 These are political goals,
16:10 that you create an environment for war.
16:12 You are a retired soldier.
16:15 You tell me,
16:17 how much is thought in your army
16:19 that we have to attack Pakistan,
16:21 or we have to occupy Pakistan.
16:24 You tell me.
16:26 Hussain sahib,
16:28 we have been fighting since 1947,
16:34 that whatever map we have made,
16:37 we cannot change it any further.
16:40 Pakistan has tried,
16:47 Pakistan army,
16:49 Pakistan's army has tried,
16:51 the war of 1947,
16:55 they tried,
16:57 the war of 1965,
16:59 Pakistan's army tried,
17:03 the war of 1971,
17:05 they tried,
17:08 the war of Kargil in 1999,
17:12 they tried to give it a face,
17:18 they tried,
17:21 they are non-state actors,
17:25 militants, terrorists,
17:28 but for that,
17:30 12-13 battalions of Northern Light Infantry
17:33 were built,
17:35 especially for the Kargil operation.
17:38 But what is the result of this?
17:40 I am saying,
17:42 that we never had the aim
17:45 to move this map towards Pakistan.
17:50 It is said that
17:53 the Kashmir,
17:55 Pakistan has Kashmir,
17:58 it is said that it should be taken,
18:02 but nothing has been done to take it.
18:07 I think that
18:12 the best forum for the Kashmir dispute
18:16 is the Kashmiri forum.
18:18 Now, we can say that
18:26 after abrogating Article 370,
18:30 at least a joint Kashmiri voice has been formed.
18:36 Because before that,
18:39 their relationship was different,
18:42 with Kashmir, India, India,
18:45 and Pakistan.
18:48 So, with the Pakistani army,
18:51 not with Pakistan.
18:53 Anyway, as far as the question of the book is concerned,
18:57 give us some ideas,
19:00 if you can give us the names of your chapters.
19:04 My first chapter is
19:08 the decline of the media in our state.
19:13 The decline of the media.
19:16 Because the media has played a very important role in our country.
19:21 Whether it is our wars,
19:25 or our disputes,
19:27 or our war and terror,
19:29 or whatever it is,
19:31 or the political situation,
19:34 the media has played a very important role.
19:41 You were talking about
19:45 maybe people have read less history,
19:48 or people don't want to read it,
19:50 or people don't go into this debate,
19:52 but people do know that
19:54 in 1971, there was a newspaper called Azad,
19:57 which was about the situation of the media.
20:01 And here,
20:03 there is a belief in Pakistan,
20:06 that Bhutto divided the country,
20:09 Bhutto said, "We are here, you are there."
20:12 The media is so important.
20:15 And then, in our country,
20:17 the 40-50 channels that run,
20:20 from 7pm to 12pm,
20:23 the debate that takes place there,
20:26 the debate that people hear and watch,
20:28 is very important.
20:30 In that,
20:32 a lot of things are not real.
20:36 I have to say with difficulty,
20:38 I am a media man, I am a journalist,
20:40 that in our country,
20:43 there is censorship,
20:46 which is imposed by the establishment,
20:48 and after that, there is an establishment
20:50 which the media imposes on itself.
20:52 So, we cannot even touch that.
20:57 What can we talk about?
20:59 You cannot talk about the election,
21:01 you cannot talk about the Gulshanistan,
21:04 you cannot talk about the Talibanization in KP,
21:08 you cannot talk about the situation in Afghanistan,
21:11 you cannot talk about the Al-Qaeda issue,
21:15 and you can only talk about the political opponents,
21:19 and that too, the establishment, whoever wants to talk about it.
21:22 So, I think,
21:24 in a collective way,
21:26 the media has a very important role in making the mindset of Pakistanis.
21:30 And the state of the media itself,
21:33 is very surprising.
21:35 And I know very little about India,
21:39 but I can say about Pakistan,
21:41 that maybe 1% of the people,
21:44 who are the owners of the TV,
21:47 are the owners of the media,
21:50 who are somehow related to the media industry.
21:54 Otherwise, 99% are the owners.
21:59 And they are such owners,
22:01 who do business,
22:03 who only do business with trading.
22:05 They have no connection.
22:07 Some have a sugar mill,
22:09 some have schools,
22:11 some have other colleges.
22:14 And they always work as facilitators,
22:17 where you can get good money,
22:19 you can get whatever you want with that money.
22:22 So, the media has played a very important role,
22:25 in our current situation.
22:28 My second chapter is,
22:31 that the war on terror,
22:34 and the militancy,
22:37 how has the state of Pakistan seen it?
22:42 And what has been the effect of this?
22:45 Because this is a very important chapter.
22:47 We have seen war on terror,
22:49 or sectarianism,
22:52 militancy,
22:54 and the religious violence that has happened in our country.
22:57 How has the state dealt with this?
22:59 And how important are these people?
23:01 How strong are they?
23:03 How many groups are there?
23:05 And how have they influenced Pakistan's politics,
23:07 and Pakistan's society?
23:10 This is what we have discussed.
23:13 The next chapter,
23:15 I have seen it historically,
23:17 that the political decline,
23:20 the collapse,
23:22 how has it started?
23:24 Right at the beginning,
23:27 when in 1958,
23:29 Ayub Khan's marshala was appointed,
23:32 then what happened?
23:34 Then our Adar, our Adliya,
23:36 our army,
23:38 what was their role?
23:40 Then how did Bhutto Sahib join Ayub's cabinet?
23:43 And sitting on the shoulders of the army,
23:45 he came into politics.
23:47 Then he became Pakistan's first civil marshal and stator,
23:52 which was a completely new position.
23:55 - It was new.
23:57 - Yes.
23:58 Then he formed his party.
24:00 Then what was the role of that party?
24:03 And then the situation that continued,
24:06 I have seen it from tenure to tenure,
24:09 up to Imran Khan.
24:11 What is the situation now?
24:13 And the last chapter is,
24:15 what is it that we see now?
24:18 But secondly,
24:20 I have written a little on their corruption,
24:23 that the stories of corruption in our country,
24:26 how does it work?
24:28 And apart from this,
24:31 two soldiers,
24:33 Jarnail Sahib has also written,
24:35 both are soldiers.
24:37 One was the army chief,
24:39 another was General Assam Bajwa,
24:41 whose family and who have made more than 100 pizzas
24:46 all over the world.
24:48 And has built a very big empire.
24:51 Then this Bajwa Sahib,
24:53 who lived for six years,
24:55 our Qamar Javed Bajwa Sahib,
24:57 in his six years,
24:59 how has his real estate
25:01 increased so much?
25:03 How did it happen?
25:05 Sorry.
25:07 I have written on this.
25:09 What happened to the Nawab Sharif family
25:11 and the People's Party.
25:13 Then this Imran Khan is inside the case,
25:15 which we call the Tosha Hanna case.
25:17 What is this case?
25:19 And in this Tosha Hanna,
25:21 our rulers,
25:23 our army generals,
25:25 our presidents have taken so many things.
25:27 So, I have tried to write a lot on all this.
25:34 And the basis is that
25:36 we are the victims of Diwali.
25:40 It is politically,
25:42 it is socially,
25:44 it is economically.
25:46 In every respect,
25:48 we have had a decline.
25:50 This is the whole story of that decline.
25:52 It is a very sad thing.
25:54 And your other chapters?
25:59 The other chapters are also chapters on the Sharif family.
26:06 Similarly, there is a chapter on the Zardari family.
26:08 There are chapters on their governments.
26:10 How was their first government?
26:12 How was the second?
26:14 Then how were their three governments?
26:16 The Nawab Sharif family.
26:18 Now they have got the fourth government.
26:20 In a way, how is this?
26:22 What is happening?
26:24 In total, there are 15 chapters.
26:26 Okay.
26:28 Okay.
26:30 I am waiting for your book to come to me.
26:38 You will get it very soon.
26:40 I will read it and review it.
26:42 Yes, you will get it very soon.
26:44 Just like I reviewed the Punjabi Taliban.
26:50 You reviewed it.
26:52 And it was published quite widely.
26:56 Yes.
26:58 What is the future of Imran Khan?
27:06 He has been arrested.
27:10 Yes, he is in jail at the moment.
27:14 There are more than 150 cases against him.
27:18 If he is bailed out, he will be arrested again.
27:26 So, the personality of Imran Khan,
27:32 I feel that he will not be able to work with them.
27:36 Okay.
27:38 Because he is a very stubborn person.
27:42 He has always been.
27:44 He was a very stubborn person.
27:48 And now, his stubbornness is very prominent.
27:54 He does not want to work with them.
27:56 If he had worked with them,
27:58 he would not have been in jail.
28:00 They are sensible people.
28:04 They know when to show their hands and when to work with them.
28:10 He does not know about all this.
28:14 But the on-ground situation at the moment,
28:18 the big question is whether the elections will be fair and free.
28:22 If there are fair and free elections,
28:26 Imran Khan will win by a large margin.
28:30 Even if they meet, they cannot defeat him.
28:34 Because, after Imran Khan was removed,
28:40 the debacle that has happened,
28:42 the one and a half year that has passed,
28:44 people's lives have become very difficult.
28:48 People are in difficulty.
28:52 People do not have flour.
28:54 There is a shortage of flour.
28:56 Petrol has been more than 300.
29:00 Dollar is more than 300.
29:02 Export-import has a lot of impact.
29:06 When the dollar price increases,
29:08 everything is expensive.
29:10 There are no jobs.
29:12 People are worried.
29:14 In this situation, people think that
29:16 the reason for all this trouble is
29:18 two families, the Sharif family and the Zardari family.
29:22 And the third big change that has come,
29:24 is that for the first time,
29:26 people have also started to understand
29:28 that the reason for this problem is not the army general.
29:31 It is the army general.
29:33 So, I think that the imaginations that are being formed by people,
29:39 under this, it is not possible to defeat Imran Khan in any election.
29:47 Yes, his party can be broken,
29:51 as more than half have been broken.
29:53 There should be lawsuits on him.
29:55 He should be in jail for a long time.
29:57 He should not come out of jail.
29:59 He should be banned from the elections.
30:01 And the courts and courts should be managed.
30:05 It is possible that after 5-10 years,
30:07 people will forget Imran Khan.
30:09 But I don't think it's so soon
30:11 that in a year or two,
30:13 or in the coming 4-5 years,
30:15 someone will make Imran Khan unacceptable politically.
30:19 This is not possible.
30:21 And no one can make any predictions about Imran Khan himself.
30:27 Because sometimes he speaks very high,
30:32 sometimes he is not aware of anything.
30:35 And sometimes he says that what I know,
30:37 no one else knows.
30:39 I know the West better than the West.
30:41 I know everything.
30:43 So, in all these situations,
30:45 we see some darkness in Imran Khan.
30:48 Firstly, he has not been able to make the party in the right way.
30:51 Secondly, he is so emotional, so enthusiastic,
30:57 so much of a quarrelsome kind of people are involved in the party,
31:00 that from Twitter to the streets,
31:03 they fight with each other,
31:05 quarrel, and make a lot of noise.
31:07 So, the calmness or the nature,
31:11 you can call it in Hindi,
31:13 the political nature,
31:15 has not yet been able to become theirs.
31:17 Yes, we saw this.
31:21 We were very surprised in India,
31:25 when the party representatives came on the streets,
31:34 and they were so brave,
31:38 that the houses of the soldiers were also attacked.
31:43 We were very surprised by this.
31:46 I think that was an inspiration from Turkey.
31:56 The way people came out against the army for Urduan,
32:02 and they forced the army to retreat,
32:05 maybe they will do the same here.
32:07 This was a concept of Khan Sahib and his Jamaat,
32:10 that this will happen.
32:12 But it was not possible,
32:14 because the conditions are ours.
32:16 That you come and take the army back,
32:20 or push them, or force them,
32:22 I don't think this is possible.
32:25 And I don't think it should be,
32:28 that the army and the people fight each other.
32:31 Yes, yes.
32:33 When the war took place in 1965,
32:38 Mr. Mutto had a big influence in that.
32:45 And the advice that Mr. Mutto gave to Ayub Khan,
32:54 was that India has no problem,
32:58 Kashmiris will not do anything,
33:00 they will not do anything here.
33:02 And later it was found that the advice was wrong,
33:08 from Mr. Mutto to Ayub Khan.
33:13 And the result was seen on the ground,
33:17 how much damage was done to Pakistan.
33:21 Anyway, after 1971,
33:26 a few years later,
33:31 when Zia ul Haq became the army chief,
33:37 and another,
33:39 let's say,
33:41 the third dictator became the army chief,
33:46 then look at this relationship,
33:49 how Mr. Mutto and Zia ul Haq,
34:00 and how Mr. Mutto's life was destroyed,
34:14 how they did it.
34:19 From one point of view,
34:24 you will do as you do,
34:28 there was something like that between them.
34:34 Now, we are very anxious in India,
34:41 what kind of government will be formed?
34:46 Please explain.
34:51 I think the government will be formed as the establishment wants.
34:58 And they will try to make a government
35:08 which can be easily suppressed.
35:12 If a group rises,
35:18 then to stop that group,
35:21 another group is pushed back.
35:23 For example,
35:25 after 9th May,
35:29 whatever happened to PTI,
35:31 many people of PTI have become a separate party,
35:36 Pakistanist Ahkam Party,
35:38 or Ahstehkam-e-Pakistan Party.
35:40 These are influential people,
35:42 people with money,
35:43 they are landlords,
35:44 they are industrialists,
35:46 they have money too.
35:49 And this will be a group,
35:51 which will be deliberately tried to make it successful,
35:55 so that People's Party,
35:57 Nawaz League,
35:58 and in between this Ahstehkam Party.
36:01 And this Ahstehkam Party will be used
36:04 for the next government's Ahstehkam.
36:08 If the joint government of Nawaz Sharif and People's Party is formed,
36:16 then these people are also included,
36:18 they are in the cabinet too.
36:20 And when the establishment sees that
36:22 Nawaz League and People's Party
36:24 are together damaging the interests of the establishment,
36:29 then these Ahstehkam people should be pushed back.
36:32 So that the government falls.
36:35 Hussain Sahib,
36:37 if I had more time,
36:39 I would have definitely spoken to you more,
36:42 but you have told us a lot.
36:45 And thank you very much,
36:49 for coming to South Asia Monitor,
36:53 and talking about your latest book,
36:55 'Turmoil in Pakistan'.
36:57 And many other issues related to your writing,
37:04 have come to light.
37:07 Thank you very much.
37:09 Thank you very much.
37:11 I am grateful to you.
37:13 [BLANK_AUDIO]