“Bagless education” - or an education unburdened from the regimentation of physical textbooks - is gaining ground in India. Rather than just obsessing over rote learning, bagless education for a specified period allows children in the grades between grades 6 and 8 to explore many unstructured creative and vocational pursuits across schools in India. Propelling some of that movement is Dr. Swaroop Sampat Rawal, a well-known educator and teacher-training expert.
Swaroop, who holds a Ph.D. in Education and a Doctor of Letters from the United Kingdom, is that rare celebrity actor with once a successful TV career and fame followed by many films who has transformed herself into a passionate advocate for teaching and education overhaul nationwide. Dr. Rawal spoke to Mayank Chhaya Reports about the growing recognition of the value of arts and aesthetics in the school curriculum across the country.
Swaroop, who holds a Ph.D. in Education and a Doctor of Letters from the United Kingdom, is that rare celebrity actor with once a successful TV career and fame followed by many films who has transformed herself into a passionate advocate for teaching and education overhaul nationwide. Dr. Rawal spoke to Mayank Chhaya Reports about the growing recognition of the value of arts and aesthetics in the school curriculum across the country.
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00:34 - Bankless education or an education unburdened
00:40 from the regimentation of physical textbooks
00:43 is gaining ground in India.
00:45 Rather than just obsessing over rote learning,
00:48 bankless education for a specified period
00:51 allows school children in the grades
00:53 between sixth and eighth to explore
00:56 many unstructured creative and vocational pursuits
00:59 across schools.
01:01 Properly in some of that movement
01:03 is Dr. Swaroop Sampathravel,
01:05 a well-known educator and expert on teacher training.
01:09 Swaroop, who holds a PhD in education
01:13 and a doctor of letters from the United Kingdom
01:16 is that rare celebrity actor
01:18 with once a raging TV career
01:20 and fame followed by many films
01:23 who has transformed herself into a passionate advocate
01:26 for teaching and education overhaul nationwide.
01:30 She has just published her latest book,
01:33 "Play, Practice, Pursue, 10-Day Bankless School Approach
01:37 to Pre-Vocational Education."
01:39 Dr. Ravel spoke to my entire report from Mumbai
01:42 about the growing recognition of the value of arts
01:46 and aesthetics in the school curriculum across the country.
01:49 Swaroop Sampathravel.
01:52 - Explain bankless education concept
01:57 which seems to be like an education unburdened
02:01 from the regimentation of carrying loads
02:04 as manifest in physical textbooks, et cetera.
02:08 The idea seems to be to free up children
02:10 of a certain age group
02:12 from the tyranny of structured learning for a period of time.
02:16 Is that the right interpretation?
02:18 - Yeah, absolutely it is.
02:21 So it's a very interesting concept
02:24 and it's there in our national education policy.
02:29 But I think even before that,
02:33 there were a couple of people doing this.
02:36 Like I was doing this with drama in education,
02:40 in the village of Rajpur.
02:42 Every Diwali I used to do a 10-day drama camp
02:45 in which we used to do one subject,
02:50 whatever it was and do it through drama.
02:52 And obviously because it was a drama camp, it was bankless.
02:57 But it doesn't really do away with reading and writing.
03:02 So there would be a book in which the kids wrote reflections
03:06 and there was a lot of learning.
03:09 So bankless doesn't mean not learning.
03:12 I think there was somebody else
03:15 who was formally doing something called a bankless school
03:18 and bankless days or bankless periods in Gujarat.
03:23 So I'm sure I'm right,
03:26 but I can't say for sure,
03:29 I mean like a hundred percent thing
03:31 is that I think this concept of the bankless school
03:34 has come from our Honorable Prime Minister
03:36 into the national school, because he was the PM,
03:40 I mean the chief minister then
03:42 when all this was happening in Gujarat.
03:44 So, well, they put 10-day bankless school.
03:51 The other thing is that,
03:54 well, what is the bankless school
03:56 in the national education policy?
03:58 It's 10 periods of fun,
04:02 of learning vocations
04:08 that they see around them,
04:12 heritage visits, visits to the museum,
04:18 visits to higher education institutions,
04:21 you know, all that.
04:23 For the sixth and the seventh and the eighth grade,
04:28 specifically, okay?
04:30 Well, I have designed a part
04:36 of the national vocational educational framework
04:38 with the previous government,
04:40 when Kapil Sibal was the Minister of Education.
04:44 That was for vocational education,
04:50 vocational education for students after the ninth standard.
04:56 And I used to request Narendra Modi ji
05:01 to do something about that
05:03 and make it for younger children.
05:06 Because, especially the children
05:11 who are vulnerable and marginalized,
05:13 like even the rural children,
05:16 even the children in municipal schools
05:18 and the slums of big cities like Mumbai and Delhi,
05:22 all of them did not get an exposure
05:26 to different vocations.
05:28 So, if you want them to start a vocational,
05:33 you know, going into some vocational stream
05:35 from the ninth standard,
05:37 they don't know what to do.
05:38 And then when this new government came in, the BJP,
05:43 they brought in this fantastic thing, Skilling India.
05:46 That was for the youth.
05:50 But again, the youth were not exposed to different things.
05:54 My idea came from one thing directly mine,
05:58 because my father, Mr. Bachchu Sampath,
06:03 he was the chief producer of the Indian National Theater.
06:06 I used to go to the theater, I know, all my life.
06:09 Like I remember even four and five years old,
06:12 I'd go to the theater.
06:13 And I saw different things.
06:15 I only didn't see the actor or the actress,
06:19 but I saw the person who's designing the lights,
06:22 the person who's designing the stage, the costumes.
06:25 I saw makeup men.
06:27 I saw all these things.
06:29 And it's not surprising that when I finished school,
06:32 the first thing I did besides modeling
06:36 was professionally design costumes
06:40 for a play for Bajor Patel
06:42 for the Indian National Theater,
06:44 and, you know, help design the sets.
06:49 So, you know, another thing is that when I was growing up
06:54 and then we saw Steven Spielberg and we saw Igmar Bergman,
06:58 and Steven Spielberg, as you know,
07:02 had a camera when he was very young.
07:05 And he would, you know, make films at that time.
07:07 See what happened to him.
07:09 This is what happens, you know,
07:12 that passion starts at a very young age
07:16 when you're exposed to all that, you know?
07:19 And the beauty of it,
07:20 it's something that's really beautiful.
07:23 So I wanted this for the children of India.
07:28 And so I'm so glad, just last,
07:32 I'm so glad that they've added that in the Bagler's period.
07:37 And it's specifically exposure to pre-vocational education.
07:45 - I see.
07:46 Tell me the rationale behind choosing the grades six to eight.
07:51 - You see, from the ninth standard,
07:54 they can choose a vocation and stream out.
07:56 - Okay.
07:57 - So you've got to prepare them for it.
07:59 So I had initially suggested fifth standard even,
08:03 but with the new five plus five plus three plus,
08:07 you know, all those different divisions,
08:09 you know how it was when we were studying,
08:11 it was 10, you, I think,
08:13 must have done 10 plus two plus three.
08:15 - No, I did 11, let's just say.
08:17 Mine was the last year.
08:18 - Oh, I did 11 too.
08:19 I was the last year.
08:21 But after that, like my sons and all,
08:23 I still did, you know, 10 plus two plus three.
08:28 So exactly like that.
08:30 They've divided it in such a way
08:32 that that middle school comes in six, seven, eight.
08:36 And that's why it's in that period.
08:38 - I see, okay.
08:41 You write in your book about
08:43 what you call negotiated learning.
08:47 One of whose defining aspects
08:50 is the presence of arts and aesthetics in schools.
08:55 Elaborate on that, I'm fascinated by that.
08:58 - So negotiated learning is a very funny thing.
09:03 In the sense is, like when I walk into class,
09:07 I'll tell you what's the funny thing.
09:08 Like when I walk into class, I go,
09:10 "Listen, there's total democracy in this class.
09:14 And, you know, everybody can decide
09:16 what we are going to be doing and what we will do,
09:18 but I'm the prime minister."
09:20 So negotiated learning is not really like that,
09:26 but it is what I, as a teacher,
09:32 want to teach the children,
09:34 but they can negotiate how to learn it,
09:37 when to learn it, and where to learn it.
09:40 So that is the negotiation.
09:43 Is that I cannot, I will not insist
09:46 that you learn it up by heart and come.
09:48 They can say, "You know, ma'am, let's do this through drama."
09:53 And we would do the whole learning through drama.
09:57 What has to be learned has to be learned.
10:00 But the negotiation is how, when.
10:05 - I see.
10:06 - Where.
10:07 - And how did that work out?
10:10 Because in the Indian system,
10:13 it's always the teacher who's basically
10:16 handing down pronouncements and instructions
10:19 and punishment and-
10:21 - No, it worked out beautifully.
10:24 I did it as an action research in my PhD.
10:28 My doctoral research was a PhD,
10:30 and I really did negotiated learning in my PhD.
10:35 So I actually put it into practice.
10:37 And it's like, there are moments when they would say,
10:40 "We know the answer,
10:41 but we don't want to tell you right now."
10:43 - I see.
10:44 - And I'd say, "It's okay,
10:45 as far as you're paying attention in class
10:48 and understanding what's happening, that's important."
10:51 Because I know that the next time
10:53 they're going to come and tell me the answer.
10:55 So, you know, and then since then,
10:59 since then, 2007 was when I started really well.
11:05 You know, working in Gujarat
11:07 with the government primary schools.
11:09 And then after that, I worked in with vulnerable
11:14 and marginalized children in the cotton fields
11:17 of Maharashtra and Gujarat.
11:19 Then I worked with the Kasturba Gandhi Balika Vidyalayas.
11:23 Then I worked in the sensitive districts of Maharashtra,
11:26 like Gajchanoli, Nandurbar, et cetera.
11:30 Where everywhere I've taught children
11:34 or I've taught my teachers
11:36 how to apply negotiated learning.
11:39 And it has worked every time.
11:42 Because you see, you have to make it so interesting.
11:45 The other thing is you cannot force a person to learn.
11:48 And having said that,
11:51 I want to say that every child wants to learn.
11:55 Every child wants to learn.
11:58 So you cannot say, "No, you just have to do this now."
12:04 Supposing I just close my brains
12:06 and stop taking in what you're saying.
12:09 Then you can just go on and on
12:12 and it's not going to make a big difference at all.
12:15 So that's where we'll start negotiating.
12:17 Listen, kid, I need to teach you this.
12:21 You tell me how you want to learn it.
12:23 - I see, right.
12:25 Tell me how a 10-day bagless curriculum works
12:28 and why only 10 days?
12:29 Why couldn't it be expanded to a little more time?
12:32 - It should be.
12:34 I told you, I used to do this 10-day bagless school
12:37 in Gujarat.
12:39 Of course, a lot of people I've met now,
12:42 they said, "We are going to do more than 10 days."
12:46 And there is nothing that stops you
12:48 from doing more than 10 days.
12:49 They said, "Do at least 10 days."
12:51 - Okay.
12:52 - Yeah, so sorry, continue.
12:56 - No, I was saying this is the 15th year
12:58 of your having started drama camps.
13:01 You started in 2018.
13:03 Where, as you mentioned, the focus-
13:06 - I started in 2007.
13:08 - Oh, I'm sorry.
13:08 I'm sorry.
13:09 I missed it.
13:10 It's about 15 years now.
13:13 It was a version of what became 10-day bagless learning.
13:19 - No, no, no, no, no.
13:20 I don't, I mean, I can say that, but no, not really.
13:24 Because you see, in the drama camps,
13:26 I would do one subject.
13:27 Like I did this once I taught the dandi march
13:31 for 10 days through drama.
13:33 But this is specifically for pre-vocational education.
13:37 - Okay.
13:38 - It's not really to teach a subject bagless.
13:41 - Now I'm interested, more interested
13:43 in how you think over these 15 years,
13:46 what has that technique revealed to you
13:49 in terms of its efficacy?
13:51 - You know, it is such a fantastic way to teach.
13:57 Of course, I would like to take a middle road
14:02 in the sense is on one side are people who say,
14:05 "Throw out all the books and just go out in the field
14:09 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blue, blue."
14:11 And then on the other side,
14:12 that is the typical rote learning,
14:14 which is anyways now going out of fashion.
14:16 So I would take the middle road.
14:20 And I would say we need an equal balance of both.
14:25 What drama does or what arts does
14:30 is it enhances the learning, it makes it fun,
14:33 and it helps retention.
14:35 But for example, like just yesterday,
14:39 I did this lovely class
14:42 for the National Mission of Mentoring
14:44 where I taught heritage visit, art and mathematics.
14:49 So I taught fractal geometries,
14:54 which we taught our children in the Baglas school.
14:57 I mean, in this trip to Laval,
15:00 we took them to Morera Sun Temple.
15:03 And the kund, the water tank,
15:06 has got the replication, the self-replicating style.
15:11 So that's where fractal comes in.
15:12 So we taught them about fractals there.
15:15 Then we brought them back and we did fractals as art,
15:19 like a Y shape.
15:23 And you just go on repeating the Y shape
15:25 and you can make a wonderful tree.
15:27 So you need a clever mixture of art,
15:34 like I put drama with the art, okay?
15:39 So let's say you need a clever mixture
15:41 of art, theory, and practice.
15:45 All of that should go together to make an ideal curriculum.
15:49 Because you know what, one second,
15:52 when you do this thing, when you do the drama,
15:57 when you do the art, you can never forget it.
16:01 You know, you may do the sum and you'll forget it.
16:04 But once you have done this as a, you know,
16:08 like I remember we did democracy
16:11 and citizenship as a workshop once.
16:15 And that one kid was five years old
16:18 in this little school in Rajpur,
16:21 and in the village.
16:23 And two years later, his teacher started
16:26 Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha and voting.
16:29 So he goes,
16:30 (speaking in foreign language)
16:34 And he started telling about, you know, civics.
16:42 We had civics, right?
16:44 And it was the most boring subject on earth.
16:46 But how could civics be boring?
16:51 Because how can Lok Sabha, Rajya Sabha,
16:54 voting, constitution, democracy,
16:57 how can that be boring?
16:58 But we were taught in that way.
17:01 - Right.
17:04 - Now my kids don't find it boring.
17:06 - Yeah.
17:07 You know, I'm interested to know
17:09 whether you think drama as a tool
17:12 to advance education can cover pretty much
17:15 all areas of education, say from sciences
17:18 to mathematics to history.
17:20 - Of course.
17:22 - And are we in a position to design
17:25 a curriculum that would meet the requirements
17:28 that you're talking about?
17:30 - You know, I don't think we need to make a curriculum.
17:34 We need to teach the teachers the technique,
17:36 how to do it.
17:38 And then they need to learn how to apply it.
17:41 Of course, it's going to take time,
17:43 but that's what we're doing now with art integrated.
17:46 Because art and sport integrated studies
17:48 has become a very important part
17:50 of the national education policy.
17:53 So till the eighth standard,
17:55 in fact, they said all the way up, you know,
17:59 holistic learning.
18:00 So, you know, art integration is going to be
18:03 such an important thing.
18:05 But then remember, art is so much.
18:08 Like when you think of art,
18:09 everybody's thinking of painting
18:10 and now maybe drama, but it is drama,
18:14 it is poetry, it is painting,
18:16 it is graphics, it is puppetry,
18:19 it is media.
18:21 I knew cinema and education.
18:24 That is art integrated.
18:26 So it's not only,
18:28 (speaking in foreign language)
18:29 let's do role play, you know,
18:31 then we'll, no, no, it's much more than that.
18:34 - Right.
18:35 Just, skilling is a major challenge in India,
18:38 especially in the context of the 21st century pursuits
18:42 where artificial intelligence is already appending.
18:46 Lots of established models.
18:48 Couple that with the fact that 70% of rural schools,
18:52 I think you mentioned that figure in your book,
18:55 lack high quality education.
18:57 Don't you as a professional educator fear
19:00 that we are creating entire generations
19:03 of badly skilled young Indians?
19:05 - No, I don't.
19:07 I think we are going to change that.
19:08 And if you read-
19:10 - You're talking about 70% of-
19:11 - Wait, wait, wait, wait.
19:13 If you read it, you see the reference.
19:16 When was that paper written?
19:19 Over three, four years back.
19:21 - Yeah, but that figure couldn't have come down by much.
19:26 - Well, things are changing.
19:28 There are things changing.
19:29 First of all, we have,
19:31 I am telling you the world's best national education policy.
19:36 I'm telling you, it is incredible.
19:40 The people who created this policy,
19:42 and I know that it's the Honorable Prime Minister
19:45 who has a huge role to play in this.
19:48 It is one of the world's greatest
19:50 national education policy.
19:53 And we have all been working on it by step by step.
19:56 Like I was there in the first step after the policy,
20:00 there, you know, after this hearing group and all that,
20:03 I was there to write the position papers.
20:06 We worked so hard to write the position papers.
20:10 And, you know, everybody could be skeptical
20:12 and say, "Oh, yeah, yeah."
20:13 But, you know, one month back,
20:16 or less than, maybe a little more than that,
20:18 maybe two months back,
20:19 I read there's gonna be a holistic assessment
20:22 from, you know, grade one, or maybe grade eight,
20:27 or grade, yeah, grade eight,
20:30 to all the way up to PhD.
20:33 And that's what we had written in the position papers,
20:36 that there should be holistic assessment,
20:38 and that assessment should carry on,
20:41 you know, from the eighth, it should go to the ninth,
20:43 from the ninth to the tenth.
20:44 And that's one way we would stop tuition classes,
20:47 or reduce the need for tuition classes.
20:50 Well, they've actually passed it, and it's there.
20:53 This art integrated one,
20:57 I was there in the position papers
20:58 because I've written the position papers
21:00 for pedagogy and curriculum.
21:03 And I was one person,
21:05 obviously because I'm from drama and arts,
21:07 and I was insisting on this,
21:09 you know, there should be art integration,
21:11 and it's come.
21:13 Today, I'm on the national mission for mentoring,
21:15 training the teachers to use art integrated studies
21:18 in schools.
21:19 Of course, we have this huge population,
21:23 we have this huge, you know, we have a lot of diversity,
21:26 we have this, you know, the scale,
21:29 but I think that the people who are running this country
21:33 have understood about the scale.
21:35 And you will be surprised,
21:38 you know, it's like etched in my mind,
21:40 because, you know, when I met Narendra Bhai
21:42 for the first time, Narendra Modi ji for the first time,
21:45 I told him that I would train 40 teachers.
21:50 And he said, "Bas?"
21:51 And I said, "Sir, 40."
21:53 And he said, "Bas?"
21:54 I said, "Sir, 40, you know, it's experiential learning."
21:58 So he says, "Okay, okay, start."
22:01 And I kept on wondering, why is he saying that?
22:04 In 2017,
22:06 2017,
22:09 I trained two and a half lakh teachers simultaneously,
22:14 you know, through satellite.
22:15 But that satellite was something he set up in Gujarat.
22:18 So, you know, and I remember his first speech in,
22:24 sorry, it wasn't 2017, it was 2015 when I did that.
22:30 Why? Because it was very close to his speech of 2014,
22:35 you know, when he said that India has to move on scale,
22:40 skill and science, you know?
22:46 So, it is etched in my mind, you know?
22:51 No, sorry, not science, it was speed, scale and skill.
22:56 - Okay.
22:57 I'm interested to know from you the issue of scaling up
23:01 within the huge urban, rural, huge economic inequities
23:06 that prevail in India even now,
23:09 although there has been a considerable improvement,
23:11 but they still prevail.
23:12 Within that, what are the challenges you think
23:15 of scaling up a model that you're talking about?
23:18 - Okay, so I cannot talk about anything else,
23:21 but I will talk about education.
23:23 Yes?
23:24 Because not only do I know about it,
23:27 but I'm also working on it,
23:28 and I know from the field, like at the grassroots level.
23:31 There is one reference
23:36 in this huge national education policy
23:39 to the national mission for mentoring.
23:41 So, right now, the National Council for Teacher Education
23:47 has chosen 60 teachers of the 49 plus teachers
23:52 of the country.
23:53 60 of us are going to be training
23:56 or upscaling them in all their knowledge
24:01 and their styles of pedagogy
24:06 and their curriculum matters and all that
24:08 for various fields.
24:11 Like I'm in the group
24:12 which is doing art integrated studies.
24:14 There are people who are going to do Sanskrit,
24:16 there are people who are going to do math,
24:18 science and all that.
24:19 According to the national education policy,
24:22 you have to see the app that has been made.
24:26 I log in, I put my class timing,
24:29 like just yesterday I put a group class.
24:32 You know, there are individual classes,
24:34 there are group classes.
24:35 So I put a group class
24:36 and said I'm doing a group class on heritage art,
24:39 no, on heritage visit art and mathematics.
24:44 Yesterday, there were about 28 to 30 teachers
24:48 online with me.
24:51 And for one and a half hours,
24:53 we did a session on that.
24:54 Their reaction was, ma'am, what a class.
24:58 We do some of this,
24:59 but we don't have the confidence to do it.
25:01 Now we will do it.
25:02 And the other said,
25:03 we never knew we could teach like that.
25:05 We are going to go and do this.
25:07 So I'm just one.
25:10 There are 60 others and we are going to add more.
25:13 So, you know, that digital thing
25:16 which the honorable prime minister is crazy after,
25:20 he really knows how to use this.
25:21 You know, the teachers were from Kerala,
25:24 there were some from Assam,
25:26 there was some from Jammu.
25:27 And I was there in Mumbai teaching them.
25:31 - You know, my sense from reading your book
25:35 is that the primary target or audience
25:39 is it's a handbook, sort of a handbook for educators.
25:43 In that sense, it does acquire a bit of an academic tone.
25:49 Is there any possibility that you can bring it down
25:53 to a level where regular students can imbibe
25:56 some of what you're advocating?
25:58 - Well, this is specifically for teachers,
26:04 schools, NGOs, and parents.
26:07 The reason is I want parents to read it
26:11 so that they can understand a lot about holistic education.
26:15 You know, there is this very interesting thing
26:19 which I've talked about, which I know you must have read,
26:21 but the whole world goes IQ, EQ.
26:24 But what about PQ, that's physical quotient?
26:28 What about SQ, that's social quotient?
26:30 What about SPQ, which is spiritual quotient?
26:34 And what about AQ, that's aesthetic quotient?
26:37 You see, Mayank, we are not just intelligence and emotion.
26:42 We are much more than that.
26:45 I think we are all these things put together.
26:49 So when we learn all this, we make a proper person.
26:54 So, you know, that's why, if, you know,
26:58 this book would not be for children, for students.
27:03 The only students this would be for
27:05 would be students who are doing B.Ed.
27:07 So yeah, that way it could be, but no, no.
27:12 This is specifically for teachers to understand
27:15 and for schools to start thinking about
27:19 not only physical education,
27:20 but think about spirituality in classrooms, in the schools.
27:25 I think it's very important.
27:27 Another thing I think which is very, very important
27:30 is for us to understand Indian aesthetics.
27:34 I am really sick of hearing the term Southeast Asia.
27:42 I'm really sick of hearing the term Eastern knowledge.
27:47 No, it's not Eastern knowledge.
27:50 It's the Indian knowledge system.
27:51 And it's not anything else.
27:55 It's Indic aesthetics.
27:58 You know why?
27:59 Because the others are different.
28:01 I'm not saying they're bad.
28:02 China is fantastic with its art,
28:06 and so is Japan and Thailand, but they are not India.
28:11 - True, I agree.
28:12 No, that's true.
28:13 It's a very distinct system.
28:15 And unfortunately it's just gets brushed
28:18 under the carpet from time to time.
28:19 - Well, now it won't,
28:21 because we have a beautiful subject
28:23 which is going to be included in schools
28:25 called the Indian knowledge system
28:27 and the knowledge of India.
28:28 - How is the, because we talked about the fact
28:32 that it's such a large country
28:34 with such diverse demographic,
28:36 such diverse economic classes,
28:39 within those, how do we,
28:42 how do you think someone like you can help create
28:45 a sort of uniformity in terms of using these tools nationwide?
28:50 - You know, the way the uniformity comes in is because
28:58 at every level, higher, lower,
29:04 I mean, let's not get into any class or economic background,
29:08 or anything, everybody needs this aesthetics.
29:12 And India (speaking in foreign language)
29:18 You know, we are the one country
29:20 which has got over 2,500 arts and crafts.
29:24 It's so beautiful.
29:27 And everybody does it.
29:28 It's not as if, you know,
29:30 like we have the Banarasi weavers.
29:33 And yes, they're not so well off
29:35 or they're very, you know, middle or lower middle.
29:40 But we have this fantastic people
29:43 from the family of the Holkars
29:46 who revived the Maheshwaris.
29:48 - Right.
29:49 - So, you know, everybody cares for art.
29:53 We have these fantastic women who, you know,
29:56 in the villages are doing Kachi embroidery.
29:59 And I come from the Bhatia community.
30:01 We have the middle and the upper class women
30:03 sitting at home in the afternoons
30:05 doing the, you know, Kachi embroidery,
30:08 because we come from there.
30:10 So, you know, I think arts unifies us.
30:13 And that's one thing which,
30:17 and maybe, you know, I would pray
30:20 that, you know, our spirituality would unify us.
30:25 But that is a little tough call.
30:28 - No, it is.
30:28 - But I know.
30:29 (laughing)
30:31 - That is me with my hopes, you know.
30:35 - No, I agree.
30:36 I mean, you know my background.
30:38 I have no response to a subject like that
30:43 in the sense I'm not a believer by any measure,
30:47 not even, I reject even spiritualism wholeheartedly.
30:51 There is nothing like that,
30:52 but that's besides the point.
30:53 But I see what you're saying.
30:54 It is necessary.
30:56 - Let me see if I can find what I have said.
30:58 And I really like it.
31:00 - You can go on talking till then.
31:02 Let me find it.
31:02 - No, no, no.
31:03 I mean, I understand where you're coming from,
31:05 but this is my personal standpoint,
31:07 which is of no consequence to anybody else.
31:09 It's just the way I think.
31:11 - No, no, no.
31:12 That doesn't matter.
31:13 But this is what I think.
31:15 Where did it go?
31:24 No, go on talking,
31:25 because it'll take me some time to find it.
31:28 - I think it's necessary that you do focus
31:31 on spiritual traditions.
31:33 If they are controversial, so be it,
31:37 because they are part of human lives.
31:39 - Yeah, so you know that part where I've talked
31:43 that spirituality is a poetry and its nature,
31:48 and it's, here it is.
31:50 Drawing on the concept of spirituality of writers,
31:55 philosophers, and spiritual leaders,
31:57 I have compiled a list of what spirituality can mean.
32:01 An experience about seeking a meaningful connection
32:04 with someone bigger than yourself.
32:07 Love, nature, sacrifice, hope, art, music, poetry, energy,
32:12 positive thoughts and energy,
32:14 examining your life, self-development,
32:17 moving towards a state of awakened understanding,
32:21 mindfulness, a search of meaning.
32:23 All of that is spirituality.
32:25 - So why do we look at spirituality
32:28 only with the focus of religion?
32:31 - No, but that's the prevailing reality.
32:33 Why is besides the point?
32:35 - So we need to change it, right?
32:37 So supposing we bring that into our schools
32:40 and we start teaching the kids from the first standard
32:42 that this is what spirituality is.
32:44 - I agree.
32:45 I agree 100%.
32:47 I mean, look at this tree right next to,
32:49 outside my window.
32:51 If that's the definition,
32:53 that's the very embodiment of spirituality.
32:55 - Isn't it that lovely picture you put about the tree is,
32:59 I don't know if it's the same tree you're talking about.
33:01 It is.
33:02 And I think that's spirituality.
33:05 - Agreed, 100%.
33:06 - Yeah.
33:07 So, you know, you are one person
33:09 who should not be talking about not being spiritual.
33:13 - No, I'm not.
33:14 - No, but when you're doing your paintings,
33:17 but when you're doing your paintings
33:19 and when you're singing your songs,
33:22 I think that has a lot to do with spirituality.
33:25 - Possibly, I mean, there is one way of looking at it,
33:28 but I, my response is not...
33:28 - Because it's not a one-off thing, you know?
33:31 It's not something you're doing casually.
33:33 You're doing it from your heart and your soul.
33:36 - Yeah.
33:36 But my responses are not human.
33:38 That's what I'm saying.
33:39 - Oh yes, and there is that lovely paragraph,
33:42 which is at the end of my epilogue.
33:44 I won't read it out because it's very long,
33:46 but it is, you know, Sri Aurobindo saying that
33:51 there's not enough research and science done on the soul.
33:55 But just because we don't know about that,
33:57 we cannot teach, we cannot not teach our children
34:00 about the soul.
34:01 - Yeah, you know, I'll give you a small example.
34:03 I was talking to Dr. Tony Nader,
34:06 who is a very well-known transcendental meditation master,
34:11 as well as a very highly regarded neuroscientist.
34:14 One of the points that I've raised to him some time ago
34:18 was about the concept of Kshanika.
34:21 Kshanika is a very Buddhist concept
34:23 where they talk about life being from moment
34:26 to moment to moment.
34:27 1500 years, maybe 1800 years ago,
34:30 there was a debate in India about if life is from moments
34:34 to moments to moments, what lies in between?
34:37 Now look at the profundity of the debate.
34:40 We seem to be losing that.
34:42 I wish something like that was brought back
34:45 into our school learning.
34:47 - I think so, it should.
34:49 But if we start, then they will reflect like this.
34:54 If you don't give them a chance,
34:56 how are they gonna do it?
34:58 - And I'm so glad that at least
35:00 you are passionately persisting with it.
35:02 I don't know anybody else in that high profile
35:05 who's doing it, so just hammer your way all the way.
35:09 That's what I would say.
35:10 Now, this was terrific.
35:13 I'm so glad.
35:15 The book is, how is it doing?
35:17 - It's doing pretty well, of course.
35:19 It's like just the beginning.
35:20 - Yeah, but it should be prescribed
35:22 as a sort of a part of the--
35:25 - We're translating it in Gujarati and Hindi.
35:30 - No, but I'm saying beyond that,
35:32 shouldn't it be prescribed as learning
35:34 for teachers across the country?
35:36 - It should be, it should be.
35:38 Well, it should be, yes.
35:40 - How do you go about it, given your connections?
35:43 I'm sure you can push it.
35:45 - I don't have any connections.
35:46 - Well, you have certain profiles
35:48 which can work in your favor, why not?
35:50 - Yeah, so I will try, I'm going to be trying it.
35:53 Well, it's just been released
35:54 and we've just had a few of these things.
35:56 I'm waiting for the Gujarati book
35:58 and the Hindi book to be done,
35:59 and then I'm going to talk and get it done.
36:03 We're trying to get this into every school in Gujarat.
36:06 That's the first step.
36:08 - Okay, wonderful.
36:09 - Then we shall try Maharashtra
36:10 and then the other states.
36:12 - This is terrific.
36:13 I'm so glad that this has come out
36:16 and hopefully you'll have many more coming in.
36:20 - Yes, I hope so, yes.
36:22 Well, this year I'm going to have five publications.
36:24 - Wonderful, I've been looking forward to it
36:25 to be the other day.
36:27 - Yes, so I've already had my second one,
36:31 which was an IGI Global, I have to send that to you.
36:35 - Please do.
36:36 - It is called "Being in the Beyond, Democracy Cafe
36:41 as a Curriculum in the Third Space."
36:44 - Oh, nice.
36:46 Nice.
36:46 But do I have-
36:47 - It's in a book called
36:49 "Third Space in Educational Experiences."
36:52 Third Space as Educational Experiences.
36:56 - But I mean, this is a minor point I'm making.
37:00 Does it mean that you have basically disengaged
37:03 from your movie career?
37:06 - No, I haven't, but just now,
37:08 all this is really taking up my time
37:11 and this is like my life's work.
37:13 So this has to be done.
37:15 And then I will do films as and when they come.
37:19 - Tell me a bit about your publisher
37:22 because this is, like I said, an academic book
37:25 and I'm sure it's a marketing challenge
37:27 and I would be interested to know what the publisher is.
37:31 - Yes, so, you know, it was a really interesting thing.
37:34 The publishers are Himalaya Publishing House.
37:39 They publish academic books, in fact.
37:43 They publish books for colleges and higher education.
37:48 But this wonderful friend of mine called Anuj Pandey,
37:54 I was telling him about this 10-day drama camp
37:57 which I was doing.
37:58 And I'm like, once I do it,
38:00 then I'm going yap, yap, yap about it everywhere.
38:03 And he goes, I said, "I'm gonna write a book about it."
38:06 And he says, "Ma'am, give me the book."
38:08 So I said, "Sure, definitely."
38:11 And, you know, so they decided to publish a book
38:15 which they normally don't publish.
38:17 And I was going through a terrible time, you see.
38:20 It was too much stress happening.
38:22 Mummy was very, very ill and in the ICCU
38:26 and, you know, in and out.
38:28 And then we lost her.
38:29 And I would go, "Anuj, I'm missing my deadline
38:32 by six months."
38:34 And he says, "You know, this is not a book.
38:37 You're writing about your love, your passion, your soul.
38:41 This is more than a book.
38:42 So take your time."
38:44 And he was so patient about it.
38:46 And, you know, he just let me say whatever.
38:48 Like I said, "Will this be controversial?
38:52 Will that affect your publishing house?"
38:55 He says, "Don't worry.
38:56 Just write what you want to write."
38:58 And I think, you know, working with them
39:01 has been the greatest experience.
39:04 - How wonderful.
39:05 That's always wonderful to have a good publisher like that.
39:08 - Yes, really.
39:10 - All right.
39:11 That does it.
39:12 - Yeah, thank you.
39:13 You know, seriously, they're so nice, you know.
39:17 - Okay.
39:18 Where is he from?
39:19 - Bombay.
39:20 In fact, he's my neighbor.
39:22 So that's why Paresh gets really mad.
39:25 I said, "You know, nobody writes about their publishers."
39:27 And he says, "No, but he's not just an ordinary publisher."
39:30 - Right.
39:31 - You know?
39:32 And he is actually so fantastic, you know,
39:34 he's ready to do whatever he's told.
39:37 - Sure.
39:38 - And yeah, like I think I had a...
39:40 And the thing is, it is so funny
39:42 because after the book was published,
39:44 you know, I was at his place having tea.
39:46 And he says, "Tell me where my office failed you."
39:50 So I said, you know, they didn't.
39:53 In fact, I've learned so much.
39:55 So what I learned from my first publisher,
39:57 if I knew, if I'd worked with Himalaya then,
40:01 I would have done a much better book.