Frank Islam speaks with Zafar Sareshwala, Entrepreneur, Educationist and Public Figure | Washington Calling
Category
đź—ž
NewsTranscript
00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 This is Frank Islam, Chairman and CEO of Applied Investment
00:19 Group, and your host of Washington Calling,
00:22 where we interview leading voices from business
00:24 and politics that explore topics that impact you, the viewer.
00:30 Today, we are fortunate to have a distinguished guest who
00:33 is a dear friend, and his name is Zafar Sureshwala.
00:36 He's an entrepreneur, industrialist,
00:40 and more importantly, he's an educationist.
00:43 He has a commitment towards education
00:45 to entrepreneurship for minorities in India
00:48 through his initiative, Talim-e-Tarbiya.
00:51 I hope I pronounced it correctly,
00:53 and I hope I did.
00:55 I'm an Aligarian.
00:56 I should pronounce it correctly.
00:57 I hope so.
00:58 He's the former Chancellor of Marana Azad National Urdu
01:02 University, and currently has Sureshwala Enterprises
01:05 established in 2007.
01:08 He's one of the pioneers of Islamic finance
01:12 across the globe.
01:14 Thank you for coming to our show.
01:15 Good to see you, Zafar, and welcome to our show.
01:19 Thank you so much for having me here with you on the show.
01:22 It's a privilege.
01:24 Thank you so much.
01:25 You're most welcome.
01:26 Zafar, you are one of India's most well-known and leading
01:29 Muslim public figure, businessman, entrepreneur,
01:33 educationist, and community leader.
01:36 How would you like to be known to the global audience who
01:40 do not know you?
01:42 You want to be known as a community leader,
01:43 as a combination of all, or as a business leader,
01:47 as an entrepreneur?
01:50 By any yardstick, Dr. Frank, I'm not a leader at all.
01:55 Well, I'm just an ordinary person.
01:57 I've tried doing several things, and these
02:01 have inherently come to me because of my family.
02:05 I mean, my family has been associated with issues
02:11 connected to Muslims, particularly
02:13 in the field of education and culture
02:16 in the city of Ahmedabad for almost more than 125 years.
02:20 Even my great-grandfather, he had set up Ahmedabad Education
02:24 Society in 1920.
02:27 And that was-- he continued, and then my grandfather
02:31 took it over, my father.
02:32 So of course, we had a privileged background.
02:37 I mean, the family business, which
02:39 we are into, manufacturing of industrial valves,
02:42 has been in existence since 1890 in the same premise.
02:47 And I'm the sixth generation entrepreneur.
02:50 But larger than that, I mean, I would
02:55 want to be known as a family which
02:58 has done for the Muslim community,
03:01 particularly in the field of education and so many others.
03:05 So I'm particularly culture, and since you are an Aligardian,
03:09 and I'm from Gujarat, and Gujarati, my mother tongue
03:14 is not Urdu, but my family has been
03:18 recipient of reviving Urdu in Gujarat about 60 years back.
03:24 My grandfather had set up Gujarat Urdu board, which
03:28 then went on to my uncle, my father,
03:30 and then we took it over.
03:32 And we promoted Urdu or tried to make it alive again
03:38 in Ahmedabad and in Gujarat.
03:41 So that is also a connection, a slight connection of Urdu,
03:44 which we have.
03:45 Well, and I was--
03:46 thank you very much for inviting me to Talim-e-Tarbiyat
03:49 when I was in BHU to give a speech,
03:52 and I appreciated that very much.
03:53 And I saw a lot of faces that I can understand and relate
03:57 to it.
03:58 So let me change my gears and ask you a question
04:03 on the Islamic finance.
04:06 As you know, you are one of the pioneers of Islamic finance.
04:10 Please tell us about the uniqueness, advantages,
04:13 and disadvantages of this concept.
04:16 And you wrote a responsibility of Islamic finance.
04:20 And tell us why--
04:21 what are the importance of this Islamic finances?
04:28 As I understand, it's a part of the Sharia Islamic law.
04:32 And how do you make the money when you give money
04:35 to the interest-free people--
04:37 interest-free?
04:37 So how do you make the money?
04:39 Tell us a little bit about this uniqueness of the concept
04:44 and the advantages and disadvantages
04:45 of Islamic finance.
04:48 See, Islamic finance is as old as Islam.
04:53 It was started, in fact, pre-Islamic.
04:56 If we all know that the prophet of Islam, peace be upon him,
05:01 was known as Sadiq-ul-Amin.
05:04 Prior to he became the prophet.
05:06 Sadiq-ul-Amin means an honest person.
05:09 And why was he called that?
05:11 Because in those days, we all know it in the Islamic history
05:16 that he used to go to trade in Syria.
05:19 And the rich women or the wealthy people in Mecca,
05:26 they used to part with their wealth.
05:28 And the prophet, with his effort, his skill,
05:34 and he would do business.
05:36 So he was known that if you want to interest your money,
05:40 there is no honest person than Muhammad.
05:43 He was called Sadiq-ul-Amin.
05:45 So that form of partnership was the basic fundamental
05:50 of Islamic finance--
05:51 my money, your skill.
05:54 And then sharing.
05:55 This is, in now present Islamic finance, it is called mudarba.
06:00 Means my money, your skill.
06:02 So Islam-- and it would be very difficult
06:06 to understand that the community which
06:08 has ruled in the world for more than 1,000 years
06:11 would not be having their own mode of financing.
06:15 I mean, it is very strange to understand.
06:18 The present banking which we have,
06:20 the normal banking which we have,
06:22 or we call the conventional banking,
06:24 actually is the Jewish banking, which was started about 175,
06:28 200 years back.
06:29 But now we don't call it Jewish banking.
06:31 It is a conventional form of banking.
06:34 So Islam always had its own banking system
06:39 devoid of interest.
06:40 Because Islam frowns on interest.
06:43 Because interest-- why Islam frowns on interest?
06:47 Because Islam does not allow that you make money out
06:50 of money.
06:51 And how can you be at an advantage position?
06:54 Because Islam says that my wealth and your skill,
06:59 both should be termed as equal.
07:02 So Islam says that why?
07:04 Because in the present system, what happens?
07:06 Bank gives you money, and you do business.
07:10 But bank says, we don't care whether you lose or not.
07:14 You have to pay me.
07:14 Suppose tomorrow they have given you $1 million, and you lose.
07:17 They'll say, oh, we don't care.
07:18 I want that million-dollar-plus interest.
07:21 Islam says that the which I have not contributed,
07:24 why you are penalizing me?
07:26 So Islam says that you also take risk and reward.
07:30 So that is fundamental of Islam.
07:32 And then in last about 30, 35 years,
07:35 this Islamic finance, the present day, has established.
07:39 And I would say that the two pioneers of that idea
07:45 of Islamic finance in modern day,
07:47 one is Dr. Najatullah Siddiqui.
07:49 He was an Aligarhian.
07:51 He recently died in California.
07:54 So he is basically, I would call him
07:56 the father of giving this idea.
07:58 And second is Mufti Taki Usmani of Pakistan,
08:02 who was also a former justice in the Pakistan Supreme Court.
08:06 So these two, and then a lot of other people came up.
08:09 And I came into this field in 1995.
08:13 And why I came?
08:15 Because I saw--
08:17 I traveled to the US in those days.
08:19 I used to travel to the UK.
08:20 And then a lot of Muslims used to have--
08:23 they were wary of putting their money in the banks.
08:26 They didn't want interest.
08:27 They didn't want to pay interest.
08:29 They were moving away from mortgages.
08:30 They didn't want to invest in the stock market.
08:33 Muslims were very confused.
08:35 I'm talking of late '90s.
08:37 So I, and along with a lot of other scholars,
08:40 we came up with a conclusion that, look,
08:43 everything is not haram.
08:44 Like, for example, stock market.
08:46 Everything in stock market is not haram.
08:49 So we then set up those standards
08:53 because we saw that there is a huge market.
08:57 There is a huge market.
08:58 And there are no Islamic financial products available.
09:02 So I think in '96, '97, Howard University
09:07 started a program called Howard University Islamic Finance
09:12 Program.
09:13 It is called HIFP.
09:16 And they invited me.
09:17 First time in '97, I came.
09:19 '98, I came.
09:20 And in '99, they asked me to write a paper on it.
09:24 So I, along with one very distinguished professor
09:27 of finance in a university in India, Dr. Ubaidullah,
09:32 we both wrote a paper, how to set up Islamic fund
09:37 in non-Islamic environment.
09:38 Non-Islamic means where Islamic financial system is not there.
09:43 And Frank, you'll be happy that even today,
09:45 that paper of mine is taught in Howard University.
09:49 So I gave that idea.
09:52 And then rest is history.
09:53 Then after that, Dow Jones came with their Islamic equity
09:59 index.
10:00 Then FTSE came.
10:01 And then here in India, Standard and Poor.
10:05 So basically, we created a framework on that.
10:08 So my whole idea was that there is a huge market,
10:12 latent market.
10:14 And there are no financial products.
10:15 For example, you take US.
10:17 Now, USA has almost 11, 12 million Muslim population.
10:22 But there must be at least 10,000 financial products.
10:27 But how many Islamic financial products are there?
10:29 None.
10:30 None.
10:30 Take in Europe.
10:31 So I thought that there's a huge market.
10:33 And in fact, again, I'm setting up
10:36 an ethical and an Islamic fund in Abu Dhabi,
10:40 at the Abu Dhabi global market.
10:42 And it will be called Hilal Ethical Fund.
10:46 And I've taken a lesson, because when I came up
10:49 with Islamic Fund in 2001, it got a good start.
10:52 But then 9/11 happened.
10:54 And in those days, anything Islamic
10:56 was very difficult to handle.
10:58 So I've decided not to call it Islamic, call it ethical.
11:02 So we are setting up that fund now in Abu Dhabi.
11:06 You're known as a person with a deep commitment to education,
11:09 especially for minorities in India,
11:11 and including Muslim women.
11:13 Such is the fact that you were a chancellor of Marana Azad
11:16 Urdu University.
11:18 Other initiatives that you're involved into,
11:20 such as Talim-e-Tarbiya.
11:23 Do you think the term of the vice chancellor
11:26 that you've been rewarded because of your relationship
11:30 and engagement with Prime Minister Modi and the BJP
11:32 government?
11:34 Tell us a little bit about what impact influence
11:36 did you make when you were a chancellor of Marana Azad
11:39 Urdu University, and why your leadership was
11:44 beneficial to Marana Azad University.
11:48 Tell us a little bit about Talim-e-Tarbiya as well.
11:50 I think you mentioned that earlier.
11:52 So tell us a little bit about the uniqueness, advantage,
11:54 and disadvantage of Talim-e-Tarbiya.
11:58 You know, Frank, a lot of people thought
12:00 that my only qualification to become chancellor at Marana
12:04 Azad was my proximity to Mr. Modi.
12:07 And in fact, the first meeting which I had when I took up
12:13 the charge, I still remember it was 14th January, 2015.
12:18 At that meeting, I had invited most prominent people
12:21 from Hyderabad, about 200 people, the vice chancellor,
12:24 everybody was there.
12:25 And I said, because people had started this whole campaign
12:29 against me.
12:30 And they also said that a chancellor of Urdu University
12:34 is made at Gujarat.
12:35 And they said that a car dealer is made a chancellor.
12:39 So the first speech which I made,
12:42 because my predecessors in that university--
12:45 I'm not naming them.
12:47 Their degrees I had not even imagined ever in my life.
12:52 All three predecessors had double PhDs
12:56 from top US universities.
12:59 In fact, I was the least qualified chancellor
13:02 ever in the country.
13:03 I was just a graduate mechanical engineer.
13:07 And what was the condition of that university
13:10 when I went there?
13:12 It had gone through three most prominent.
13:16 And my predecessor, earlier to me, was a lady.
13:21 She had two terms.
13:23 She was close ally of the government of the day.
13:25 I'm not so close to the government.
13:28 That lady was part of Sonia Gandhi's kitchen cabinet.
13:31 Oh, OK.
13:33 Double PhD.
13:34 What was the condition of the university when I went there?
13:38 35,000 Muslims in the university.
13:41 11 campuses across the country.
13:44 157 learning centers across the country.
13:48 Can you imagine a central university?
13:51 Maulana Azad is a central--
13:52 32 central government universities out of those.
13:56 You know, the BA and MA, a couple of courses of BA and MA
14:01 of Maulana Azad University was not recognized by UGC.
14:07 OK.
14:08 Yeah.
14:09 Maulana Azad also had two polytechnics for engineering.
14:15 One polytechnic in Darbhanga in Bihar
14:18 was not approved by AICT, which is the government of India's
14:23 accreditation agency.
14:24 Means if you graduate from that polytechnic--
14:28 now it's a central university--
14:29 you are not eligible for government job.
14:32 So my predecessors, highly educated, very close,
14:36 they could not even do this basic.
14:39 They didn't do.
14:40 Third, it was a university that they did not even
14:44 know what is recruitment.
14:46 There was no system of recruitment.
14:51 The students, they did not know what a seminar is,
14:55 what a symposium is.
14:58 MBA student, they did not know how Reserve Bank of India
15:02 works, how a multinational company works.
15:05 They were just-- because ordinary Muslim youth
15:08 were there.
15:10 So these people were coming there
15:12 with a tag of Chancellor of Maulana Azad National
15:15 University with double PhDs from US.
15:17 So they made that here, our chancellor,
15:21 least educated chancellor, Zafar Sureshwala,
15:24 whose only qualification is proximity to Modi.
15:28 When I entered the university, only 40% seats
15:32 were being filled.
15:34 60% were remaining empty.
15:37 The first thing I did, I got all the courses recognized.
15:41 In the very three months, I got them recognized by UGC.
15:45 Second, I got all their distance learning courses,
15:50 which were spread in 155 cities in the country.
15:54 I got them up and running, all of them.
15:57 Third, they were closing a lot of campuses.
16:02 One was in Lucknow.
16:03 They were going to close.
16:04 I opened it.
16:06 There was only postgraduate course I put there in Lucknow.
16:11 I put undergraduate, and I also put PhD there.
16:16 Then I did at least nine international seminars
16:21 in Maulana Azad National University.
16:24 The first seminar which I did was called Muslims, Media,
16:31 and Democracy.
16:33 I invited 52 most prominent journalists
16:36 from across the world.
16:40 Then I brought Ivanka Trump there
16:43 on her entrepreneurship program with the US government.
16:46 Because at that time, she was handling a lot of things
16:49 in the State Department.
16:51 I did nine most prominent symposiums there.
16:56 I did a lot of seminars there.
16:59 First time ever, I took the MBA students on industrial tour.
17:05 I took them to the Bank of India.
17:07 I made them visit reliance industries.
17:09 I took them to a very large IT company in Mumbai.
17:13 I took them to big banks, how the banking system works.
17:18 In fact, I took them to the Bombay Stock Exchange.
17:21 And you know the best part?
17:23 They were accorded the reception of ringing the bell
17:29 at the Bombay Stock Exchange, which
17:30 is only reserved for the prime minister
17:32 and the kings of the world.
17:34 These young, ordinary youth of Maulana Azad National
17:39 University got the chance to ring the bell of the Bombay
17:42 Stock Exchange.
17:43 Fourth, fifth, I got 10 large companies of India
17:48 there as recruitment.
17:51 In the first year, 130 students got recruited.
17:56 After that, 200, 300, I brought them there.
17:59 And most important, and that you have
18:01 to give marks to Mr. Modi, which nobody has done ever
18:06 in any Islamic world.
18:07 I told Mr. Modi that, look, this Urdu
18:10 is a language which has now remained in the prescience
18:13 of the madrasas.
18:15 If you allow me, I've identified 250 madrasas
18:19 in the country.
18:20 I can directly admit them in Maulana Azad.
18:24 And he said, how you do that?
18:25 Because madrasas students have never been to any school.
18:28 They have not passed their SEC.
18:29 They have not done their 12th.
18:31 How can they come to a university?
18:32 I said, sir, we had set up a bridge course for one year.
18:36 All these madrasas students come here.
18:39 They go through the bridge course.
18:40 And then they go for engineering.
18:42 They go for pharmacy.
18:44 And Frank, today, I can bring you
18:47 a team of students, a maulana and a structural engineer,
18:51 a maulana and an economist, a maulana and a pharmacist,
18:54 which has not even happened in Pakistan.
18:57 It has not happened in Saudi Arabia.
18:58 And this was done by least educated chancellor
19:02 in the country, whose only qualification
19:05 was proximity to Modi.
19:07 So thank you very much for your impact, influence,
19:12 and your leadership for the Maulana Azad University,
19:14 what you did.
19:15 So I want to talk to you about your relations
19:17 with the Prime Minister Modi.
19:19 That's what we're talking about.
19:20 And what role did you play in bridging
19:22 the gap between the BJP government and PM Modi
19:25 and Muslims in India?
19:28 And do you believe you are a close confidant
19:31 to Prime Minister Modi?
19:33 You used to be.
19:33 You still are.
19:34 I would hope so.
19:36 Do you think that Modi was responsible to bring
19:39 the all-India, all Muslim--
19:41 what was it called-- Muslim League to India?
19:44 See, my view is--
19:51 I've seen a lot.
19:52 And the whole idea of meeting Mr. Modi for the first time,
19:57 when we met him, when he was the chief minister of Gujarat,
19:59 immediately after the horrendous riots of Gujarat 2002.
20:04 I mean, after that, the riots happened, the destruction.
20:08 We all know about that.
20:10 After that, in December of 2002, Mr. Modi brought elections.
20:15 And he again won by 2/3 majority.
20:17 Now, here is the government.
20:19 And there are not 1, 2 million Muslims in Gujarat.
20:22 There were 5.5 million Muslims in Gujarat.
20:25 Now, there was not a single Muslim
20:28 who had any connection in Gandhinagar with the power.
20:30 You cannot remain in isolation with people in power.
20:33 You don't have.
20:34 You are connected with Bill Clinton.
20:35 You are connected with Obama.
20:37 You are connected with people in power.
20:39 We need to do that.
20:40 If we want to do something for the community,
20:46 Frank, it is very important that we
20:49 have connection with the government of the day.
20:51 Now, whoever that government is, that was the whole idea.
20:55 So I rather became a bridge between Mr. Modi
21:00 and the Muslim community.
21:03 And that remained for almost 10 years
21:05 till he became the prime minister in 2014.
21:07 In fact, after that.
21:09 So I feel that in India, Muslims are decimated.
21:14 I mean, it's not happened today or the day before yesterday.
21:18 It has happened for almost 35, 40 years.
21:21 Muslim votes today have no meaning.
21:24 Neither you can bring somebody nor you can put somebody down.
21:28 Your vote has no meaning now.
21:31 So the only thing left for the Muslim community in the country
21:34 is that you may vote wherever you want to vote.
21:36 But there should be a process of dialogue
21:39 with the government of the day, not the politicians,
21:43 the intellectuals of the community, the educationists,
21:47 the IT professionals, or doctors, engineers,
21:51 businessmen, clerics.
21:53 So I feel even now, whoever it is, Mr. Modi is there.
21:58 Or in states also.
22:00 I'm extrapolating.
22:02 Because in India, we have a different form.
22:05 We have a central government and we also have state government.
22:09 So even in states, whoever is in the government,
22:12 they always need to have a process of dialogue
22:16 between the community and the government of the day.
22:19 In the center, between the community.
22:22 And so I have seen that when you meet them, you talk to them,
22:27 see, after all, they are into power.
22:28 They know.
22:30 See?
22:31 So my view is that we need to have that.
22:36 And second, one more thing which we need to have,
22:40 Muslims in the country also need to have a process of dialogue
22:44 with the non-Muslims, particularly the Hindus.
22:47 This should go hand in hand.
22:50 And I am in total agreement with you.
22:53 As we understand, you were a goodwill ambassador
22:58 representing Prime Minister Modi for Hajj in 2016.
23:02 What role did you play then?
23:04 And how has Hajj for Indian pilgrims changed since then?
23:10 Do you think you are still a member of the Hajj committee?
23:13 And what role does the Hajj committee play?
23:16 And is Hajj committee part of the minority affairs
23:19 of India?
23:22 No, I was never a member of Hajj committee,
23:25 nor earlier, nor even now.
23:27 But the prime minister sent me as his goodwill ambassador
23:31 to Saudi Arabia.
23:33 I developed connections there at that time
23:36 with the ruling family, with the people in the Islamic Development
23:40 Bank, with a lot of people in power for the country
23:43 as a whole.
23:45 And of course, I oversaw all the arrangements
23:49 that the government of India does.
23:50 Hajj committee is actually part of the government of India.
23:54 People are appointed.
23:56 Hajj committee was set up by an act of parliament.
23:59 And the people there in the Hajj committee
24:02 are appointed by the government.
24:04 So they would do what the government does.
24:06 So basically, under the auspices of the ministry,
24:10 the embassy there, the consulate,
24:14 they do a couple of things, like the airline getting
24:19 the tickets to and fro, plus housing accommodation there.
24:23 So these things are managed by the government of India
24:26 under the auspices of Hajj committee.
24:28 And that they do for about 165, 170,000 pilgrims
24:32 who go through Hajj committee.
24:34 And the difference between going through Hajj committee
24:37 and private is almost--
24:39 the difference is more than 100%.
24:42 For Hajj committee, they take for 300,000 or 370,000 rupees.
24:47 But the least, if you go in private,
24:49 it will cost you 600,000.
24:51 So government of India is doing a very [INAUDIBLE] service
24:54 of doing this part.
24:57 My role in that particular was to build bridges
25:02 with the government of India, with the people in power there.
25:07 And I think that has been in very good state.
25:11 You would be knowing that government of India
25:13 today has best relations with Saudi Arabia and UAE.
25:16 That you will do.
25:18 That you will do.
25:20 My last question to you, Mr. Zafar,
25:22 is you are one of the most successful entrepreneurs.
25:26 Do you think ease of doing business in India
25:29 become any easier, considering India's red tape
25:34 and corruptions, and considering the fact
25:36 that India has been ranked 77 in about 190 countries?
25:44 Do you think it is easier to do business in India?
25:48 And what are the challenges of doing a business in India
25:53 as an entrepreneur, as a businessman?
25:56 See, India has--
25:57 I mean, as you mentioned, red tape, Islam, and all that
25:59 is there.
26:00 Corruption is there.
26:01 I mean, it always has been there.
26:03 But I think the brighter side is--
26:06 they have done-- I mean, earlier governments
26:08 and this government has done a lot of things
26:12 for ease to do business.
26:14 They have done it.
26:15 But the most important thing is that the demography
26:22 is so huge that anything can be sold in the country.
26:28 You can imagine India having almost 250 million middle
26:32 class, almost the size of US.
26:35 And 100 million within them are such that you
26:39 can buy anything on Earth.
26:42 So India has inherent strength due
26:45 to the size of its population.
26:48 That in itself is a huge market.
26:50 And that's why every multinational
26:53 wants to have a foot in India.
26:55 You can see last--
26:57 in about two months' time, Apple, for the first time,
27:01 has directly opened two of their stores, one in Mumbai
27:05 and one in Delhi.
27:06 And the sale has surpassed even their imagination.
27:10 So of course, these things are there.
27:13 But then you have to--
27:15 we know how to crisscross and get into it.
27:20 But the market is huge.
27:22 And that will always increase.
27:24 And then also, if you see, India is increasing in its GDP
27:28 every year.
27:30 Almost it has become now--
27:32 very soon, it will--
27:34 in the next couple of years, it will be a $5 trillion
27:38 industry.
27:39 And every year, the GDP is increasing.
27:44 A lot of new people are coming in the wealth
27:46 because of education, because of the IT segment.
27:49 So many things are happening.
27:51 So I think this inherent strength of India
27:54 about the demography, the size of the population,
27:59 and the size of market would always be attractive.
28:03 So I think that is the biggest point.
28:04 I mean, a lot of other things are there.
28:06 But this is the biggest point in the country.
28:09 Do you have anything to say before we close
28:11 our conversations, Zafar?
28:14 No, I would advise that, particularly,
28:18 the Muslim community are listening to it.
28:21 That the people who are residing in the US,
28:24 particularly the Muslim, I think they
28:27 need to do a bit of them, either through some investment,
28:31 small business, or take or identify two, three poor
28:36 students and take care of their full education.
28:39 That's a good point.
28:40 Because I feel that if we give education to the Muslims
28:44 and the highest level of education,
28:46 my feeling is everything else will fall in place.
28:49 That's a good way to put it.
28:50 My advice to you all would be, pick up one child,
28:54 give full education.
28:56 OK, well, that's-- so if they need that assistance,
28:59 they can have a call you.
29:03 Thank you so much.
29:04 OK, you're most welcome.
29:05 This is Frank Islam wishing you a great week.
29:07 Thank you for watching.
29:09 [MUSIC PLAYING]
29:13 [BEEPING]
29:16 [MUSIC PLAYING]
29:19 [BEEPING]
29:23 [BLANK_AUDIO]