Crewe penalty loss reaction and transfer latest ahead of Preston clash
Crewe penalty loss reaction and transfer latest ahead of Preston clash
Transcript
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00:20 Hello everybody and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Southern Echo.
00:36 My name's James Copley and I'm joined by my colleague Phil Smith.
00:39 Today Phil, how are you doing?
00:40 Yeah, all right.
00:43 Yeah, two disappointing defeats.
00:45 It's been a little bit of a false start, hasn't it?
00:48 But yeah, all right.
00:49 Well, we'll start right there, Phil.
00:51 With the two defeats, there was the loss to Ipswich Town in the championship last Sunday.
00:55 Sunderland followed that up with a result against crew Alexander draw in the game,
01:01 but losing on penalties on Tuesday in the Carabao Cup first round.
01:06 A lot of concern, Phil, from Sunderland fans on social media.
01:09 It has been a disappointing start.
01:11 Where do you stand on that disappointing start?
01:15 Is it something that Sunderland fans should be overly concerned about at the moment,
01:19 or is it simply just a bit too early to tell?
01:21 Yeah, a little bit of both, I think.
01:24 I mean, I think the Carabao Cup stuff particularly you've got to be really,
01:27 really careful with because I think, you know,
01:30 Carabao Cup first round games are always terrible because it's a specific,
01:36 it's a specific set of circumstances where it's really close to the first league game of the season.
01:40 And so teams invariably make 11 changes, 10, 11 changes.
01:45 But it's even worse than the FA Cup third round where something similar happens,
01:49 because what you have in this game is you have loads of academy players playing
01:53 who maybe haven't trained that much with the first team on a regular basis.
01:57 And you've also got loads of summer signings coming into the team,
02:00 often for the first time, who aren't at full match fitness and also haven't trained
02:04 with many of their teammates, and they possibly don't even really know some
02:09 of the academy lads that they're playing with.
02:10 And that's why you see up and down the land, loads of teams get knocked out
02:14 in the first round of the Carabao Cup. It happens.
02:17 We saw the other side of it when Sunderland were in League One and they knocked out,
02:20 they knocked out Blackpool, who were in the championship when Sunderland were in League One.
02:25 We knocked out Burnley and Sheff United, didn't we, one year when they were Premier League teams.
02:29 So it's just something that happens.
02:32 Where there is definitely concern is that Sunderland's 11 of players who are there
02:38 to step in if there's an injury or come off the bench,
02:40 the two performances against Hartlepool and Crewe have both been really, really, really poor.
02:46 And I think while we shouldn't get overly concerned about a Carabao Cup defeat,
02:51 there is definitely a concern, I think, that some of these players who were an injury away
02:56 from coming into the starting 11 for a championship game against potentially really tough opposition
03:00 have not played well at all in two games against pretty, you know,
03:05 League Two and National League opposition.
03:06 So I think if you could tell me now that there would be another good striker coming in before
03:13 the end of the window and maybe another attacking player, then I'd say let's not be too concerned.
03:20 At some point, this team is going to click.
03:22 Large parts of the Ipswich performance are really strong.
03:25 There's loads of exciting things happening.
03:29 But there is a concern because at the moment there is that lack of
03:33 sort of quality and depth in a couple of key positions.
03:35 Yeah, lack of quality and depth and the situation Phil surrounding Danny Barth,
03:42 there's been a little bit of talk of Alex Pritchard, Lyndon Gooch, who are all entering
03:46 the last year of their contracts.
03:49 What was Tony Mowbray saying about those situations?
03:53 Obviously all individual situations, but he had a pretty clear message, really, didn't he,
03:57 post-crew in terms of the club not wanting to stand in players' way?
04:00 Yeah, it's something we've talked about loads on this podcast.
04:04 We've talked about it with Bailey Wright.
04:07 We've talked about it with Tom Flanagan.
04:09 We've talked about it with Carl Winchester, where probably you look at it and go,
04:13 the ideal situation really is for these players to stay as injury cover, basically.
04:20 But Sunderland's stance is incredibly strong.
04:24 It's a huge part of their recruitment message when they bring players in,
04:27 that they won't stand in your way when they feel the time is right to move on,
04:30 that they put the player first.
04:33 So if there's a longer, better contract, more game time elsewhere,
04:36 they won't stand in players' way.
04:39 So I think it's therefore fairly obvious to draw the fact that when you've got three players in
04:44 the last year of their contract, where there would be some uncertainty over their long-term future,
04:50 that there would be discussions about them potentially moving on.
04:56 My view, generally speaking, I get it.
04:58 My view on this one is slightly different because at the moment,
05:02 I just think those three players would leave an absolutely huge hole in the squad.
05:06 From where I'm sitting, we're not talking about three players who
05:10 would potentially be useful if you get three or four injuries.
05:14 Trey Hulme got sent off on Saturday.
05:16 Now, luckily, the rules mean he served his suspension the other night.
05:19 But technically, if that was to happen again, or he picks up an injury,
05:25 Lyndon Gooch is your right back, and a good one at that.
05:29 We saw the impact he made when he came off the bench.
05:31 Alex Pritchard, for me, is still one of the best players in this squad.
05:35 And we saw that when he came off the bench against Ipswich.
05:37 He just settled someone down.
05:38 He got them playing.
05:40 He helped change the game, really.
05:41 So in short, it makes me nervous in this occasion.
05:46 Now, what I would say as well is we shouldn't leap to conclusions that
05:51 someone is going to push all three out the door.
05:55 I think there's an understanding that maybe you could afford to lose one of them,
06:00 but certainly not all three.
06:03 And I think there is an understanding that the experience and also literally just the
06:07 depth they give the squad would need to be replaced.
06:10 So I think also fans should bear that in mind, because sometimes
06:13 I don't think fans should be sitting here thinking they're just going to let all three go
06:19 and just crack on as if nothing happened.
06:22 I really don't think that's the case.
06:24 So we should bear that in mind as well.
06:26 But yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic, because I do feel it's been unsettling as
06:30 well, because there are three key players in your dressing room and three important
06:36 players in the team.
06:36 And I do think it's been unsettling.
06:39 And I wonder if there's maybe a little something to reflect on there, because I think it has
06:44 helped.
06:44 I don't think it's created, and I don't mean this in the dressing room.
06:48 I've got no idea what goes on in the dressing room, very obviously.
06:51 But I mean, just amongst the general vibe of the club, I think it's been a little bit
06:56 unsettling.
06:56 Do you think possibly, Phil, that the Mowbray situation and the summer season, that little
07:02 bit, and then there's the Stewart contract, the Roberts contract, the Clark contract?
07:07 Yeah, I think so.
07:09 And some of that's just, well, some of it is just the basic order that the transfer
07:16 window should shut before the season starts.
07:18 It's absolutely ridiculous.
07:20 That in itself is unsettling, the transfer window being open.
07:23 Yeah, and the club can't do anything about the fact that Jack Clark's had a brilliant
07:27 season, that Burnley wanted to sign him.
07:29 Actually, you'd have to say that situation's been dealt with pretty well.
07:32 We know for a fact that the player is never pushed for a move, and that the club have
07:36 been really clear in terms of there's a valuation.
07:39 If the club hits it, we will let you go and talk to Burnley and make your mind up whether
07:44 you want that move.
07:44 But if they don't, you won't.
07:46 And that hasn't happened.
07:47 And actually, I think that aspect of it has been really good.
07:52 There's maybe been some external noise beyond the club and the player that has not helped.
07:58 But the point I'm making is some aspects of it the club can't control.
08:03 And if you look at any other club in the division, I'm thinking of Southampton off the top of
08:07 my head because Liveromento, James Ward-Browse, it's an absolutely farcical situation that
08:13 the transfer window is still open when the season begins.
08:16 It helps nobody.
08:17 It's just stupid.
08:20 That's the only word I can think of it.
08:21 But what I would say is that this window, it has affected Sunderland because of the
08:28 successful year they had last year.
08:29 And they've had that difficult balance between trying to improve the squad and maintain what
08:36 made it good last year.
08:37 But I do agree with you.
08:40 The season has started with more questions than anybody would have liked.
08:45 Some of that, it's hard really to put much fault with the club for because some of it
08:50 is just football.
08:51 And as I was going back to it before, some of it just feels a little bit uncomfortable
08:55 and odd, really.
08:57 And I would put Pritchard in as a perfect example of that.
09:00 Just an excellent footballer, Lyndon Gooch, an incredible servant to Sunderland.
09:04 It just seems a bit odd that we're having these conversations.
09:07 Do you know what I mean?
09:08 Even if there is a reason for it.
09:11 So, yeah, I definitely think it feels a little bit unsettled.
09:16 That's the word I would use.
09:17 And I think that's fed into the fact that when you then lose a couple of games, probably
09:22 the reaction is stronger than it might sometimes be.
09:25 But we have got to keep a bit of perspective because Ipswich are going to be right up there
09:30 this year.
09:31 Their budget is huge.
09:34 And I don't mean that in a particularly dismissive way because they've also recruited an excellent
09:39 head coach in the Sandwick players.
09:40 So I'm not saying it's just all about money.
09:43 But the point I'm making is they're a proper opponent and Sunderland could easily have
09:48 beaten them.
09:48 Probably should have got something out of the game.
09:50 So we do have to really.
09:52 While I totally get that, like I say, that sense of being slightly unsettled and the
09:59 striker thing, very obviously, I totally get it.
10:02 Because when you've come out of two windows being left a little short and you're coming
10:07 towards the end of a third window where you're still short, I totally get the anxiety.
10:11 But we do have to balance it by saying, look, the club's in a better position in so many
10:16 ways than it has been for many, many, many, many years.
10:19 And Chris Riggs scoring and becoming the youngest goal scorer in the AFL Cup history, we should
10:25 bear that kind of stuff in mind as well.
10:28 These kind of things are happening for a reason because the club's in a good place.
10:32 So definitely get the vibe, definitely get that, respect that feeling of people feeling
10:39 this more unsettled than it should be.
10:41 And definitely a little bit of concern in terms of the team at the moment is missing
10:45 a couple of bits that it really, really needs.
10:49 We'll come to Chris Riggs in a second because it's an amazing story and I would definitely
10:54 like to talk about it and do it justice.
10:55 But I think, Phil, on this podcast, we have a tendency to focus on the footballing matters
11:01 because that's our job at the end of the day.
11:04 But I think feeding into this uncertainty and into this noise around the club maybe
11:07 has been off the field issues as well with the ticketing, the club shop and getting kits
11:16 and stuff like that.
11:17 And that all seems to be just coming together at the wrong time, unfortunately.
11:21 And some supporters are understandably a bit miffed.
11:24 And I think we have to take a sort of holistic view of the football club at the moment, don't
11:27 we, and accept that on the field it's been good for the past sort of year and a bit,
11:35 albeit with a few bad results to start the season.
11:38 But off the field, whilst there has been some advances, no doubt about that, and some
11:42 appointments to key areas at the academy and all sorts of that.
11:46 But in terms of commercial, there does seem to be some angst from Sunderland fans at the
11:50 moment.
11:51 Yeah, and I think, you know, I mentioned this in the column that I wrote yesterday, that
11:55 I do think that's part of the reason why two defeats is create the reaction that it has.
11:59 Which is understandable, I think, as well.
12:02 Yeah, because I think we have to, again, we have to take a really sort of broad view of
12:09 it all.
12:10 When the ownership came in, the new ownership came in and took control, the club had been
12:16 pretty good.
12:17 It was a very stripped back operation.
12:20 The initial focus was on investing heavily in the football side, because I think the
12:25 view was, until you get Sunderland out of League One, you can kind of forget everything
12:30 else because it's not going to work.
12:31 It's not going to happen.
12:32 So, we saw the investment in players, we saw the investment particularly at the academy
12:38 alike, in terms of rebuilding the recruitment staff, the analytics staff, the academy itself.
12:48 And then football, there's always a delay.
12:51 So, you make decisions and by and large, you don't see the results of them for 18 months.
12:57 And I think what we're seeing now is, we're seeing that delay, if you like, in terms of
13:03 we're looking at it going, wow, there's a pretty impressive football structure being
13:06 put in place.
13:07 Albeit it would be nice if they could sign another striker or two.
13:10 But we're now seeing that where the club hasn't accelerated as much as anybody would have
13:15 liked, is from that off-field, from what was inherited to where it should be for a club
13:21 of this size.
13:22 That's not me making excuses, because a club of this size should have everything it needs
13:28 to serve as a huge fan base.
13:29 But I think what we've seen is, it doesn't at the moment.
13:32 I think some aspects of it, the retail stuff, I think our understanding is it's primarily
13:41 a supply issue.
13:42 You know, it isn't great when you announce a new long-term kit deal and then you have
13:46 to announce changes to it a week later and then it's difficult for fans to get kits.
13:51 I think what boils down to it, we should also say as well that the digital ticketing, while
13:56 it's caused, understandably, a huge amount of angst for a lot of fans over the summer,
13:59 Sunday it seemed to operate really well.
14:01 The club did the right thing, getting fans in early and offering that 50% off on the
14:07 concourse, it seemed to work well.
14:09 But I think the general picture, going back to what you allude to, is that I don't think,
14:14 you know, if you think of the key connection points, if you like, between fans and club,
14:19 ticket office, retail, fans clearly don't feel that connection is anywhere near as strong
14:25 as it should be.
14:26 And that will mean that if you're winning games, you'll probably get away with it to
14:32 an extent.
14:33 And if you're not, it'll mean that the vibe's not very good.
14:37 I know that there's definitely an acceptance behind the things, it's something that needs
14:41 to be more investment and it needs to be addressed.
14:44 I know they're hiring, it was reported, wasn't it, David Bruce from the MLS, the Chief
14:51 Marketing Officer at the MLS.
14:52 From what I hear, his brief's going to be pretty wide ranging in terms of some of these
14:58 things that I talked about, commercial, retail.
15:00 So you have to hope that that will start to make a difference.
15:05 So yeah, again, that's something I totally get and it is something that I think is fed
15:10 into maybe this little bit of unease that we're feeling this week.
15:14 The only thing I would say is that I can understand why when the new ownership and the new
15:22 hierarchy arrived at the club, their primary focus was on sorting out the football club,
15:28 the football side of the business.
15:29 Now we're reaching a point where, you know, the rest of it has to catch up and it has
15:33 to catch up quickly.
15:34 Yeah, and it's something you will think will get sorted as well, Phil, because purely from
15:40 a business standpoint, it's a massive revenue stream.
15:45 You know, Sunderland's fan base is pretty big and if everyone can buy a shirt and everyone's
15:50 engaged and it's easy for everybody, you know, it's a big plus for the club.
15:56 So you'd imagine that would hopefully get sorted soon.
15:59 But yeah, I can understand Sunderland fans' frustration on some of the issues.
16:03 Let's dive into the positives because we haven't really touched on many of them.
16:07 But Chris Rigg becoming Sunderland's youngest ever competitive goalscorer, a brilliant story.
16:11 Youngest goalscorer in AFL Cup history, beating the likes, I think it was, Rudy Fabregas and
16:18 Conor Wiggum, which is a little bit of a Sunderland throwback there for you.
16:21 But yeah, I mean, every time he's trusted, he seems to come up with something, a moment.
16:29 I thought that during pre-season, with the exception of the Hartlepool game, which was
16:32 a tough night for everybody, he looked good when he came on against Mallorca.
16:36 And then he gets his first start, first goal.
16:38 And we've said it a million times on this podcast, but the sky is the limit.
16:43 And he could play a very active role in Sunderland's sort of achievements this season,
16:48 which is crazy, you think, given his age.
16:50 Yeah, it was really interesting to speak to Mowbray after the game because he sort of,
16:54 one of the things he talked about was, you know, you mentioned that Hartlepool game.
16:57 And it's almost a dilemma that Mowbray's got himself with Chris Rigg in terms of, he's 16.
17:04 So I have to be incredibly respectful of the fact that he's 16.
17:07 But also, I know he's good.
17:10 And so I don't want to judge him too differently to the rest of the first team squad.
17:13 So Mowbray was really open in saying, I thought I was really disappointed with how he played
17:17 against Hartlepool.
17:18 And I thought he was really poor by his standards.
17:20 But also, like, he's 16.
17:22 So, you know, how does that?
17:24 And that's really interesting.
17:26 You know, I think Chris Rigg should take it as a massive compliment if Mowbray's criticised
17:31 his performance as a 16-year-old, because that tells you how highly he holds him in that esteem.
17:37 And one of the things Mowbray said about the other night was, you know, what pleased me
17:42 was that in the first half, I asked him to be quite disciplined, sort of to protect the
17:45 back four and not worry too much about breaking forward.
17:49 But then at half time, you know, he was very strong in saying to Rigg, listen,
17:55 crew, you know, they score from a set piece, but they aren't offering much going forward,
17:58 and especially not now that they've taken the lead.
18:00 So the onus is on you is to get forward.
18:03 I don't want to see you sitting in front of the back four anymore.
18:05 Get forward, get into the box, start bouncing off pitch yards, start bouncing off tack.
18:10 You know, and lo and behold, he gets on the edge of the box and scores with his wrong foot.
18:13 And that was something that, you know, Mowbray referenced is it gives me a lot of hope as
18:19 a coach that when, you know, the players are listening to me and they're taking it on board,
18:23 they're following my instructions.
18:25 And that's really important for Rigg because it gives him a chance of getting on the pitch
18:29 and lead games if Mowbray thinks he can trust him to do the role he's been asked to do.
18:32 So, yeah, like I say, it's really interesting sort of trying to judge a player like this,
18:38 who is just, is a freakish talent for his age.
18:43 And so it's hard to judge because, you know, you do judge them differently than you would
18:51 a normal 16-year-old, but then I'm sure the player himself does because the player's got
18:55 massive ambitions for what they want to do in their career.
18:58 So, yeah, it's going to be fascinating over the course of the season, really, to watch
19:03 this develop.
19:03 And, you know, Rigg said after the game, didn't he, in an interview with the club that he
19:07 wants to try and get some minutes this year and then really hope to put himself in a position
19:11 to try and start quite regularly next year.
19:14 And that seems about right.
19:15 You know, when you consider that Bellingham's 17 and he's probably a year on, I think, from
19:19 Rigg, Bellingham played, made three or four starts in Birmingham last year.
19:23 And then obviously we'll be hoping to probably play, say, 30 games this year.
19:26 So that seems to make sense.
19:28 Tells you that he's got a sensible head on his shoulders, ambitious, but understands
19:31 where he's at.
19:32 Yeah, it's exciting, really, really, really exciting.
19:37 And going back to what we said before, you know, three years ago, Chris Rigg would already
19:41 have gone.
19:42 He would not be at Sunderland for lots of reasons.
19:48 And the fact that he's made a decision that, you know, players like Joe Hugos, Sam Greenwood,
19:53 and yeah, could go on and on, couldn't they?
19:56 Felt like they couldn't make a few years, but now a young player thinks they can make
20:01 it.
20:01 And, you know, we shouldn't gloss over that too much just because we've had a couple of
20:06 disappointing defeats.
20:07 Yeah, it's a scary thought that he's only just 16 as well.
20:10 I think he turned 16.
20:11 I think he's like 16 years and one month old.
20:12 It's silly.
20:14 It really is silly.
20:16 But yeah, what a talent.
20:18 Transfers, Phil, we've got about three weeks left of the transfer market.
20:21 Do we have to?
20:25 I know, I know, I know.
20:26 We've got to do it.
20:26 We've got to milk it for all it's worth.
20:28 But, you know, that attitude you've just shown there is, I think, widely the same as the
20:39 fan base as well, in the sense that we know what we need.
20:41 We need a striker.
20:42 We need some experience.
20:44 I guess the question is, are we going to get it?
20:46 We know the club will try to get it and we know the club are aware of these issues.
20:49 Mowbray has talked about them at length over several windows now.
20:54 But as ever, there's a lot of factors at play.
20:56 So I don't want to be ripped off at the market.
20:58 And yeah, where do we start with that, Phil?
21:01 I still think Sunderland will get two in, minimum.
21:06 I think Dax's debut was like a sort of a, for me, a bit of an exhale.
21:13 Like, ah, good.
21:15 He's all right.
21:15 Yeah, he's good.
21:16 He's experienced.
21:18 He looks sharp.
21:18 He's got real quality.
21:20 You know, you could see Pritchard came to life the moment Dax was introduced.
21:24 Someone who could bounce off, someone who could play little one-twos with.
21:27 That just sort of, that was like a bit of a deep breath moment.
21:30 Like, oh yeah, I see that.
21:32 That's going to work.
21:32 That is definitely going to work if he can stay fit.
21:35 But, you know, he made 33 appearances last year.
21:38 So we should give him some sort of respect, if you like, on that one.
21:41 I know he's had two bad injuries, but he's a year down the line from that now.
21:44 Andy was out of favour, really, with John Dalton's in last season.
21:47 Yeah, so yeah, that was like, okay, cool.
21:51 Well done.
21:51 Like that.
21:53 And now let's crack on.
21:54 Listen, I'm sure they will sign another striker.
21:57 Where I think everyone sort of goes, is it going to be an established striker?
22:02 Where we go, oh yeah.
22:04 Or is it going to be someone quite exciting, but quite raw?
22:06 That's the question.
22:09 I'm convinced Sunderland will sign another striker.
22:11 Not least because they know they need another one right now.
22:14 But I think that the uncertainty over Stewart demands that you get a permanent signing in now.
22:20 So you're not in a situation come January where clubs can lowball you with Stewart bids,
22:26 for example, knowing that you're kind of in a bit of a desperate situation.
22:31 So yeah, listen, the pressure's on.
22:36 There's no doubt about it.
22:37 We can all see that that's what's needed.
22:39 The departure of Lahaji made, I think, total sense.
22:43 I think everyone understood if there was a good offer on the table and you could free up some
22:47 wages for a player who, while talented, clearly wasn't knocking the door down right now,
22:52 it made sense to do it.
22:54 And then in Speakman's comments, he said to me, look, we've been pragmatic here.
22:58 It creates immediate opportunities for us.
23:00 And that lifts a certain level of pressure and the club know that.
23:05 So I think they've got to sign a striker.
23:08 And I would suggest that they probably need to sign another wide forward,
23:11 because if we're bluntly honest, while very talented,
23:15 Burnett doesn't look quite there yet.
23:18 Abdullah Abbar's much harder to get your head around because three or four times in the game,
23:25 he does something amazing.
23:26 But he's nowhere near Clark's level of consistency yet.
23:33 So I think they need to.
23:36 I still feel they'll get to.
23:37 I expect it still to be tense and scary and angst-ridden.
23:42 I had it in my head that Abbar was more of a central player,
23:46 but he's been deployed largely on the left-field pre-season.
23:49 Well, I think, obviously, he arrived as a central midfielder.
23:53 But what we learned very quickly,
23:55 especially after that Cardiff game when Neil and Abbar played as a midfield two
23:59 and something just got totally overrun.
24:01 What you saw then was Mowbray and the coaching staff made an almost immediate decision
24:05 that he had to be played further forward,
24:07 where he could take those risks on the ball, where he could dribble,
24:10 where he could do all the things he's good at without leaving the team overexposed.
24:14 Now, where he's probably had his best football is playing as one of two number 10s,
24:19 where he can do all that stuff,
24:22 but he doesn't have a huge amount of responsibility, especially not off the ball.
24:25 But of course, to play with two number 10s, you have to play with a back three.
24:29 And that isn't something that someone particularly liked doing
24:31 because they have two of the best wingers in the championship.
24:34 So, I think the decision essentially is where does Bob best fit
24:40 in the way the system that works best for the team.
24:44 And I think the clubs, the coaching staff,
24:47 you said probably off the left,
24:48 where he can still dribble, where he can take defenders on,
24:52 where he can drift in field at times.
24:54 So, I agree with you, he probably is more of a central player,
24:59 but I think they find it very, very difficult to play him,
25:02 certainly as one of two central midfielders.
25:04 And obviously, playing as a 10, which we see when Pritchard plays,
25:07 has massive pressing responsibilities off the ball.
25:10 So, I think they feel that the left flank is probably the best place for him at the moment.
25:15 Yeah.
25:17 Just in terms of that pragmatism you mentioned earlier, Phil,
25:22 there's a lot of talk about money and money being spent.
25:26 And I think people can sometimes get a little carried away
25:30 with some of the figures that are bandied around in the championship.
25:33 But for me, I've seen a lot of very, very level-headed friends and Sunderland fans say that
25:39 we're not asking for Sunderland to blow a gasket in the transfer window
25:45 and have a splurge, for want of a better word.
25:48 But you're looking at players like Ella Sims, who did go for a pretty penny,
25:52 even Nathan Broadhead.
25:55 Obviously, Sunderland were perhaps a little put off by his injury,
25:57 but he did command a fairly decent fee to get him to Ipswich.
26:02 Other players as well, there's a talk of a £1m loan fee for Tom Cannon,
26:08 which you can argue all day whether that's worth it or not.
26:11 A lot of Sunderland fans I'm talking to are saying,
26:15 'We don't want the club to overspend,
26:17 but there's an acceptance that maybe at some point
26:20 they're going to have to spend some money.'
26:22 I'm not saying they haven't spent any money,
26:23 because quite clearly they have.
26:25 They've brought in players for fees,
26:27 but those fees may need to increase,
26:30 especially when it comes to a striker, because it is a premium position.
26:33 Yeah, so I'm going to say a couple of things here
26:36 and hopefully people will get to the end,
26:40 rather than just have a go at it because the first thing they say
26:45 is that Sunderland's net spend over the last four windows
26:47 has been pretty significant.
26:48 It has been, it's just a fact.
26:52 Now, I do think there is a...
26:56 So, for example, the loan fee you mentioned,
26:58 there is definitely a willingness from Sunderland
27:01 to pay pretty hefty loan fees.
27:03 Joe Gellhart had most of the Championship wanting them.
27:07 That was not cheap.
27:08 That was not cheap.
27:09 Sunderland, after Stewart got injured,
27:12 were prepared to go and spend another massive loan fee.
27:14 I think it's pretty well known that they had four strikers
27:17 that were trying to sign on loan from the Premier League on January.
27:20 Some of them would have come with big loan fees.
27:22 And they were...
27:23 One of the players they were looking at was Julian Enciso,
27:26 who then went on and scored loads of goals for Brighton.
27:29 But he didn't want to come down to the Championship.
27:31 Fair play worked out pretty well for him, let's be honest.
27:34 But the point is that there is definitely a willingness to spend.
27:38 What's also absolutely true is that the fundamental reason
27:41 why Sunderland are finding it much harder to recruit strikers
27:44 of a certain level than they are any other position in the pitch
27:47 is because it costs more.
27:50 Simple as that.
27:51 And that is absolutely true.
27:52 And that is absolutely the case.
27:53 And it is testing Sunderland's determination
27:57 to stick to their budget and to pursue this really sustainable model.
28:04 That is just a fact.
28:07 Because I agree, Ellis Sims is a really good player.
28:09 But the numbers that we reached by the time Coventry signed him
28:15 made it really, really, really difficult to see how you're going to get...
28:18 sort of make that money back or produce XC in the future.
28:24 Nathan Broadhead was exactly the same.
28:26 Sunderland did agree a deal to sign him, let's remember that.
28:30 They were going to sign Nathan Broadhead,
28:32 but he decided to go elsewhere.
28:33 And by the time January came around, Ipswich were offering huge numbers
28:36 that made it very difficult to see for a player of his age
28:40 how he'd make a profit in the future.
28:41 Now, fair play to Ipswich.
28:43 He's got them promoted and he's helped them win their first game of the season.
28:46 And I'm sure Sims will be excellent at Coventry.
28:48 But the point is Ipswich have owners who are willing to fund
28:52 major losses in the near future.
28:54 And Coventry had just banked 20 million for Gael Corres.
28:57 Sunderland are not willing to oversee huge losses.
29:02 And it's a tricky one because I get really frustrated.
29:07 It is obvious that they need a striker
29:09 and it is obvious that they're going to have to push it.
29:11 But I find it quite difficult after years of writing about how Ellis Short
29:16 always just pushing things a little bit more
29:18 and left the club in an utterly ruinous position.
29:23 I mean, it was not viable as a football club.
29:26 And we also saw what happened when Sunderland panicked and signed Will Grigg.
29:32 You know, the finances involved in that deal
29:34 hamstrung them for the next three, four windows.
29:36 And to be clear, I'm agreeing with the point
29:41 because it is the reason why they have not been able
29:45 to agree a new contract with Ross Stewart.
29:47 Because realistically, he would be able to get more money
29:52 on the open market from championship clubs.
29:55 It is the reason why I find it so hard to.
29:58 It is finance.
29:59 It is the fact that there's a pretty strict budget in place
30:02 and there's a desire to be sustainable.
30:06 And fundamentally, this is why at some point
30:08 player sales are going to become important.
30:10 And what Coventry have done this summer is a perfect example of that.
30:14 Yeah.
30:15 So there's no easy answer.
30:17 That's the sort of blunt response I've got to it.
30:20 It's interesting.
30:21 I totally get that.
30:22 And I strongly think that we need to sort of have a deep think
30:27 and recognise how important an accomplished striker is
30:31 and what it could do to this team
30:33 and what it could therefore do to the club.
30:34 I totally get that argument.
30:35 It makes total sense to me.
30:37 As I say, I just find it really difficult to be strongly critical
30:41 when we all know exactly the reason why
30:44 there is this kind of strict thing in place with the budget
30:48 because of the potential consequences that we've seen,
30:51 not just Sunderland, but so many other clubs experience as well.
30:55 It's interesting you mentioned the Coventry comparison there
30:58 because there's a lot said about the Brighton model,
31:00 the Brentford model, Sunderland trying to emulate that.
31:02 And there is something in that, 100%.
31:04 But in terms of where Sunderland are now,
31:07 you're probably looking at what Coventry have done
31:09 in the next six months to 12 months
31:11 as a little glimpse into the future
31:14 of how Sunderland will potentially operate.
31:15 Yeah, and I think that the other thing it says as well
31:20 is that, I mean, Kyril has funded losses.
31:23 I say that and I'm not willing to write off huge losses.
31:27 Kyril has funded losses since he came into the club.
31:30 The club is not yet, at this point, sustainable and profitable.
31:35 So that's important to remember as well.
31:38 Well, the commercial side out.
31:40 Yeah, well, yeah.
31:42 And it's a process, isn't it?
31:43 And that's absolutely right.
31:45 But I suppose the point I'm making is that
31:47 we do need to be a little bit careful
31:49 when we talk about ambition and spending
31:51 because it would be unfair to say that there's been neither.
31:54 In my eyes, at least, that just wouldn't be accurate.
31:58 But what we does feel like we are moving into a bit
32:04 of a brick wall repeatedly with the Stryker situation.
32:07 And because they do cost more and there is a reason why they cost more
32:11 because they're winning matches.
32:12 And how that resolves in the next few weeks
32:14 is going to be genuinely fascinating.
32:16 And like I say, I'm sorry that it's a cop out of an answer,
32:18 but I'm not quite sure exactly where the balance lies
32:22 between not being reckless, but also signing proven quality,
32:25 which will help the team.
32:26 I honestly don't know what the answer is.
32:28 It sounds like, you know, speaking to Mo Brittany the other night,
32:32 he was sort of coming around to the viewers.
32:34 Can we afford to wait for what we think is the perfect balance?
32:38 And then potentially it falls through at the end of the window
32:40 and we're panicking.
32:41 Or do we just say, right, this player we really like,
32:44 it's not quite perfect, but you know what?
32:47 Let's get it done and let's get it work.
32:49 It sounds like he's sort of coming down on that side of it.
32:52 And it'll be really interesting to see
32:54 whether that means we see movements shortly.
32:57 It's going to be really interesting to see how it resolves
33:01 over the next few weeks,
33:02 because I don't think this is sort of an easy answer.
33:04 No, I completely agree.
33:07 I feel like we could talk for a lot longer on this issue,
33:10 but we've already gone 33 minutes and we've got things to do
33:13 and everybody else has got things to do as well.
33:15 I am actually writing the piece about the striker issue
33:19 we just spoke about.
33:20 And I'm over three quarters of the way through my word count
33:23 and I'm about a quarter of the way through the piece.
33:25 So I think that kind of sums it up, to be honest.
33:31 Well, excellent. We look forward to reading that
33:33 and you can find that over at the Sunland Echo website
33:35 alongside all of the reaction from the crew game
33:39 and the buildup to the Preston game.
33:41 I think Joe Nicholson potentially will have a podcast
33:45 with the Preston writer, we hope.
33:46 But if not, catch us on match day over at the Sunland Echo
33:50 for all of the coverage from Deepdale.
33:53 And thank you once again for listening.