Why ex-prosecutor believes Jack Smith’s investigators are now focused on Rudy Giuliani
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00:00 So let me get you to react to what we just heard from Paula Reid, and that is that prosecutors
00:03 met today with former police commissioner Bernie Kerik.
00:07 What do you make of that?
00:08 Well, it tells us that when prosecutors say their investigation is ongoing, it is indeed
00:12 ongoing.
00:13 Now, the way this is supposed to work is once you've indicted Donald Trump, as they have
00:17 already, the ongoing investigation is only supposed to relate either to different charges
00:21 or to different people.
00:22 And hearing what Tim Parlator just said to Paula Reid, it certainly sounds like they're
00:27 focused on Rudy Giuliani.
00:28 We know he's been identified in the indictment as co-conspirator one.
00:32 Parlator seems to think that they're not likely to charge Rudy Giuliani.
00:36 I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, but we shall see.
00:39 Ellie, meantime, when it comes to this 5 p.m. deadline for Trump's team to respond to the
00:43 judge about publicly sharing evidence, Trump claimed on his Truth Social page today that
00:48 I shouldn't have a protective order placed on me because it would impinge upon my right
00:53 to free speech.
00:54 But Ellie, that's not what this is about.
00:57 The argument from prosecutors is that if Trump, quote, were to begin issuing public posts
01:02 or using details or, for example, grand jury transcripts obtained in discovery here, it
01:08 could have a harmful chilling effect on witnesses or adversely affect the fair administration
01:13 of justice in this case.
01:16 So given that, how do you expect the judge to rule on this?
01:19 I do think the judge is going to issue some sort of protective order.
01:23 It's important to understand what this would be and what this would not be.
01:26 What this would do is limit Donald Trump's ability to take certain pieces of evidence
01:30 and put them out in the public.
01:32 What it would not do is limit Donald Trump's ability to see the evidence.
01:36 It would not limit Donald Trump's ability to use any evidence in his own defense at
01:39 trial and it would not necessarily limit Donald Trump's ability to speak about the case publicly.
01:44 So it seems like what prosecutors are asking for here is fairly narrow and tailored to
01:49 protecting witnesses and a jury pool.
01:51 And I think given the judge's insistence on a very quick briefing schedule, she's likely
01:55 to grant that.
01:56 Amy, Tim, we're beginning to see how Trump's legal team will defend him in this case.
02:01 Over the weekend, his attorney, John Loro, was all over the morning shows arguing that
02:05 Trump's actions did not constitute a crime, but instead he said an aspiration.
02:10 Listen.
02:11 What President Trump did not do is direct Vice President Pence to do anything.
02:18 He asked him in an aspirational way.
02:21 Asking is covered by the First Amendment.
02:25 So we know from the indictment and subsequent interviews that Mike Pence and his aides did
02:29 not interpret Trump's actions as aspirational.
02:32 But Ellie, is this a legitimate legal argument at least for his lawyers to be making?
02:37 Well, in theory it is a legitimate legal argument.
02:40 I just don't know that it's going to hold up given the facts of the case here.
02:44 If indeed a person merely said, hey, public official, I hope you will do things this way
02:49 or that way.
02:50 That's hard to make that into a crime.
02:51 But I think Jack Smith's position is Donald Trump did much more than merely benignly ask
02:56 Mike Pence to do something.
02:57 He pressured him to do something that they both understood was unconstitutional, was
03:01 against the law.
03:02 And it's important that we not sort of parse out each fact on its own and say, is that
03:07 a crime in and of itself?
03:09 Prosecutors are going to urge the jury.
03:10 Look, it's not just about the conversation between Donald Trump and Mike Pence.
03:14 That is part of the broader fraud and the broader conspiracy that we've charged here.
03:19 What did you make of Laura also saying that they believe Mike Pence will be one of their
03:22 best witnesses at this trial?
03:24 Boy, I presume he knows more than I do, but based on the indictment, I don't think that's
03:29 correct.
03:30 It's clear that prosecutors are relying on Mike Pence as one of their key witnesses.
03:35 There are paragraphs that seem to be based on Mike Pence's testimony and his handwritten
03:39 notes including this incident where Donald Trump said to Mike Pence, quote, you're too
03:43 honest.
03:44 And if we need another indicator, Mike Pence just said the other day that he was approached
03:47 by Donald Trump's, and I quote Mike Pence here, gaggle of crackpot lawyers.
03:51 That doesn't sound to me like a witness who's going to do any good for Donald Trump.
03:55 Let's turn down to Atlanta and the case in Fulton County.
03:58 Do you expect this to be a sprawling case with many people charged or a more narrow
04:03 indictment like the one we saw last week?
04:05 Oh, it's going to sprawl.
04:07 I think that's quite clear.
04:08 Fannie Willis has been investigating this case for two and a half plus years now.
04:12 Remember, the special grand jury foreperson came out and told us that they had recommended
04:17 indictments of over a dozen people.
04:19 That doesn't necessarily mean Fannie Willis is going to follow that recommendation or
04:24 that the actual grand jury is going to do that.
04:26 But all indications are that this will be a very broad indictment.
04:30 And the Wall Street Journal is interesting to see them report today that lawyers who
04:34 have worked with Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis in the past expect her to invoke
04:39 Georgia's RICO Act.
04:41 What does that mean?
04:42 So RICO stands for racketeer influence and corrupt organizations.
04:45 There was originally a federal law passed to that effect and now a lot of states, including
04:49 Georgia, have followed suit.
04:51 Essentially, as a prosecutor, if you're going to charge RICO, you have to show, first of
04:54 all, the existence of a criminal enterprise, meaning an organization committing a pattern
04:59 of racketeering activity, meaning two or more connected crimes.
05:03 So it can be tougher for prosecutors to show.
05:05 But if you can, the advantage is you get to charge the whole case and explain the entire
05:10 enterprise to the jury.
05:12 And I should note, the Georgia RICO law carries a mandatory minimum of five years in prison,
05:17 meaning any person convicted of that has to go to prison for five years.
05:21 That's actually even more severe than the federal RICO statute.
05:24 Wait, quickly, do you think that's what we'll see from her?
05:27 I do, based on all the reporting and based on all the other indicators, yes.