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00:00 We're joined by anti-racist activist Françoise JavÚs, the author of "A Feminist Theory
00:06 of Violence."
00:07 Thank you for speaking with us here on France 24.
00:10 Will you be attending a Justice for Nile march this weekend?
00:14 Yes, I will.
00:15 Yes, I will.
00:16 I think it's very important to contest, to go against the ban that the government has
00:23 imposed.
00:24 There is really police violence.
00:26 There is structural racism on France.
00:28 And it's very important to denounce it.
00:31 The government's saying it's approving rallies for the Justice for Nile, but banning the
00:39 one regarding this 2016 death in detention of Adama Traoré.
00:46 Yes, I mean, this is, you know, dividing two worlds, if we may say, the very old tactic.
00:53 So you know, Nile is accepted as something that is really terrible things, but the refusal
01:00 to still recognize that Adama Traoré was killed by gendarmes explain also this ban.
01:07 They still don't want, the police still don't want to recognize, and the justice still don't
01:11 want to recognize that Adama Traoré was killed by the gendarmes.
01:18 Several inquiries have cleared the gendarmes of wrongdoing.
01:22 Yes, you're right.
01:24 But there are also still demand.
01:26 Even the DĂ©fenseur des Droits has asked very recently to go back against the investigation.
01:33 There is, I mean, there is a real problem with this Adama Traoré murder.
01:38 But there is also this more and more authoritarian government, you know, with successive laws
01:44 that restrict freedom and liberties and, you know, increase censorship and repression.
01:50 I mean, since Nile death, don't remember, there was another death and there is someone
01:56 in the coma right now because of police violence.
01:59 Yeah, they're still investigating the specifics of what happened to a man on a moped in Marseille.
02:07 He, the coroner's report, wondering if it's perhaps a rubber bullet that may have killed
02:11 him.
02:12 Yes.
02:13 Let me ask you, Françoise VergÚs, when you, what will be the state of mind at that rally
02:22 on Saturday that you'll be attending?
02:26 Because it's been a big blowback against the fact that there was so much violence and looting.
02:31 Yes, of course.
02:33 But there is a really now a focus on the riots.
02:38 And this is popular uprising.
02:41 I mean, what is forgotten is the systemic humiliation and brutality every day in this neighborhood.
02:48 I mean, this is totally, it's suddenly, you know, of course, the burning of shops and
02:53 everything, municipalities, offices.
02:57 We look and we say, oh my God, what's happening?
03:00 But then this arrays, this mask, the systemic daily, daily violence.
03:07 There is no public services in this neighborhood.
03:10 There is, I mean, the rate of unemployment is very high.
03:14 There is systemic racism, structural racism.
03:17 So the way in which the government now insists on that, you know, and rush to effectively
03:23 and this understandable to rebuild the shops and other things.
03:28 But what about the popular neighborhood?
03:31 What is being, you know, thought?
03:34 What's going to happen?
03:35 Nothing.
03:36 I mean, and this has been for years.
03:38 As you may, as you know, this is not, these are not the first uprising.
03:42 This is certainly not the first.
03:45 And this is not going to be the last if this continue like that.
03:47 Well, let's listen to France's president.
03:49 He spoke on Thursday while on a trip to the southwest of France.
03:55 We have all lived through an important moment in the life of the nation.
03:59 So we will continue to work.
04:01 First of all, the first response is order, calm and harmony.
04:04 And then it's to work on the root causes of what happened.
04:09 Francoise VergĂšs, are those the right words?
04:11 Well, you know, it's we would like to think so, but they have been said so many times
04:17 and not being followed by action.
04:20 I'm really suspicious.
04:21 I mean, I can't really trust because also of the other decision taken by this government,
04:28 as we know, banning an environmental movement, banning, you know, censorship, even talking
04:34 about stopping, you know, social network and platform during, you know, that only authoritarian
04:39 government are doing, or, you know, increasing surveillance.
04:44 So I'm really dubious about the real, real will to change something.
04:49 In the case of Snapchat, in the case of Snapchat, it was because looters were organizing on
05:00 it and places to target.
05:02 Yes, of course.
05:04 But I mean, of course, but as we know, you know, the censorship of platform, it's only
05:08 taken in, you know, dictatorship, authoritarian government.
05:14 There are other way to fight against that.
05:17 And the first thing is to recognize structural racism in the police and structural racism
05:23 in the society.
05:24 That the first thing to recognize and to act against.
05:28 Otherwise, things, you know, violence would continue as we saw, as you noticed yourself
05:35 after the death of Naheed.
05:36 There's been a lot of pushback against what you've just said.
05:42 People from the French political establishment who refuse to accept that there's institutional
05:48 or systemic racism in its midst.
05:51 One example coming earlier this week, a high school in the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis
05:58 stripped of its name.
06:00 It was named after Angela Davis, an icon of the U.S. civil rights movement, replaced by
06:05 Rosa Parks.
06:06 Now, this began in 2021.
06:09 Davis, who had studied at the Saubon, by the way, before going on to join the Black Panthers
06:15 and be a member of the American Communist Party, had signed an open letter by intellectuals
06:20 denouncing a colonial mentality in France regarding, in particular, people of color.
06:28 Let's take a listen to the conservative head of the Paris area region, Valérie Prépécresse,
06:35 pounding on procedure because the township had not asked the region's permission.
06:44 The French state was showing evidence of systemic racism.
06:48 I believe that in these conditions and context, people can continue expressing themselves
06:53 in a very positive way on the French state.
06:56 Considering the events that have taken place recently, I think there is a need to enforce
07:00 the laws of the republic.
07:02 Françoise VergÚs, changing the name of a high school named after Angela Davis, your
07:12 thoughts?
07:13 Yeah, this is so absurd, you know, I mean, this is so absurd.
07:17 I mean, there is no, I mean, the ignorance of Madame Prépécresse and this, you know,
07:22 it's almost ridiculous.
07:23 I mean, Angela Davis has proved an incredible attachment to really justice and really equality
07:33 and to refuse to give her name to a woman, a black woman, and really was, as I say, constantly
07:41 fought for justice and equality and against racism.
07:45 Show how Madame Prépécresse is really behind, is really behind, it does not understand.
07:51 Is this just anecdotal?
07:52 Let me just ask you quickly, is this just anecdotal?
07:54 After all, the education minister was against that move to replace her name by that of Rosa
08:01 Parks.
08:02 Yes, he was against, he was against.
08:04 But this, you know, show that how, you know, those who are in power in France right now
08:10 are totally, you know, panicking and really acting ridiculously.
08:17 As we are saying, I mean, replacing the name in, you know, and invoking the Republic for
08:23 that has no meaning whatsoever.
08:26 But what is being really punished here is that Angela Davis said something about the
08:33 colonial past of France.
08:34 And we do know that the afterlife of colonialism are still very, very strong in France, very
08:41 strong.
08:42 And even, I will say, you know, United Nations report, you know, studies by scholars, very
08:47 respected scholars.
08:48 So what is needed today?
08:50 You know, this, even the European Commission, as we say that France is, I mean, police violence
08:56 in France should be investigated.
08:58 Françoise VergÚs, many thanks for speaking with us here on France 24.