'Where's the return?' French workers ask: 'If you take away our pension, give something in return'
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00:00 Let's get some more analysis. I'm joined here in the studio by Richard Verli who is an author and the France correspondent for the Swiss newspaper
00:06 Blick. Thank you very much. Thank you to see us now
00:09 Let's start by talking about that ruling by the Constitutional Council tomorrow. Why is that significant?
00:15 very significant because
00:17 It will clearly say whether the law as it is can be promulgated by the government
00:22 So imagine that the Constitutional Court gives a go-ahead
00:26 It means the law is now ready to be passed and the government will have achieved its goal
00:31 Which was to promulgate the law by the by the springtime to have it enforced by the summer
00:36 but in the other hand if the Constitutional Court decide to revoke some part of the law or
00:41 eventually revoke the
00:43 entire law then that would be a victory for the trade unions because the government would have to back off and to reconsider and maybe to
00:49 resubmit to Parliament
00:52 Okay, I mean people think the second scenario is is unlikely
00:56 One question people are asking is could all of this go to a referendum?
00:59 Well, what is interesting tomorrow is that the Constitutional Court has to decide on two subject on the one hand
01:06 It has to decide on the content of this law. So it will have to see whether the law is according to the Constitution
01:14 That's the first thing second scene
01:15 It has to decide whether the motion for referendum which has been put forward by the left is
01:21 acceptable the French Constitution says in its article 11 that you can have a referendum after a certain process on
01:27 Structural political reform is retirement pension a structural political reform while it was voted as a budgetary reform
01:36 That's the question
01:38 Okay, so we'll find out what happens tomorrow evening tomorrow evening 6 p.m. And no press conference
01:44 It will be a press release which might be difficult because then people and observers will have to analyze the content of that written statement
01:52 They'll have the whole weekend to think about it
01:55 It really seems looking at the numbers
01:58 Okay
01:58 The numbers are down
01:59 But people are still angry and if you look at the polls the majority of people here in France are still against these pension reforms
02:05 Why do you think the French people just aren't on board with this?
02:10 I mean, do you think there's been a communications problem from the very beginning?
02:14 Well, first of all, you've got to keep in mind that since the beginning you have two-thirds of the French people
02:19 According to the polls who are against the reform but around 60% who believe the reform will pass anyway
02:26 so there is a kind of contradiction and we are arriving now at this point of contradiction with the decision of the
02:32 Constitutional Court now why they are against I think it has to do mainly with two things
02:37 first of all a lot of people consider that
02:40 Retirement in France is a second life. You can start a second life at 62
02:44 you you close down the chapter of active working life and you start something new and
02:50 This law will deprive them of this right by pushing forward to 64
02:55 That's the first thing and second thing is there are this feeling that there is no give-and-take
02:59 What are the people people work? What are they getting?
03:02 They are they are being they will have to wait for two more years before taking their pension
03:07 But their salary will not get a rise, you know inflation is cutting down the purchasing power at the moment
03:14 So there is this growing feeling that workers are
03:17 Available to work and pay while profits are being made by big big multinational
03:22 You have seen today the storming of LVMH that tells something
03:26 Yeah
03:27 I mean we heard the rail union in one of our reports earlier saying
03:30 If you want to look for money to finance the pensions take it from the pockets of the billionaires
03:35 I mean does this add up though economically speaking?
03:38 It does it does add up and today there was a coincidence while these people were protesting in the street of Paris
03:45 I was myself at the Place de la Bastille and near the constitutional court
03:48 Which is now protected by police at the very same time in Amsterdam, Netherlands
03:52 You had the General Assembly of the shareholders of Stellantis the automobile maker Peugeot Citroen and they approved a record
04:00 salary for the chairman for the CEO Carlos Tavares
04:04 23 million euro per year
04:06 So the coincidence of those two things shows the difficulty in France
04:11 President Macron is in favor of an open economy a France which is going global
04:16 But in the meantime French people believe that they don't get their share
04:20 Yeah, so you think perhaps there is though a sense of resignation when you when you look at the numbers
04:26 People not taking to the streets in quite the same numbers. They were back in March
04:30 Do you think that means that people are you know, this whole?
04:33 The momentum is is is disappearing or do you think there's still more fight left in this?
04:38 I think we've got to see I mean the this is not the end of the story if again the constitutional court
04:44 Tomorrow revoke is a partly or completely the law that will be a clear victory for the pre unions and people which I mean those
04:52 Who are against the pension reform which clearly shear up if the constitutional court decide?
04:56 Otherwise what I'm afraid for the social climate in France is the start of a kind of social guerrilla
05:02 While you will have some people ambushed like mr. Macron ambush whenever he goes somewhere, you know in the Netherlands
05:10 It was difficult these last days
05:11 So I'm a bit afraid of that and this is probably why president Macron himself has already opened the door
05:15 For a new negotiation with the trade unions on other subject as soon as the pension reform is promulgated
05:22 I mean 12 days of national strike action and we're only in early April
05:29 I mean this has been quite damaging hasn't it for to the French economy?
05:32 Do you think it's bad for France's reputation as well for the French economy as such?
05:36 I'm not too sure that it was damaging because this the trade unions which have been united so far
05:42 They have been clever enough not to block the country. They have organized 12 days, but 12 days as you said in four months
05:48 So I believe the effect on the economy might not be as big but the effect on the reputation of the country
05:55 But more than the protest what we have seen is the you know
05:59 The been in Paris and now the strike is starting again
06:03 in Paris, so those are images that now are
06:07 Worldwide the image that France is a country going down the drain not blocked
06:13 But going a bit down the drain and that I think is bad news for a country which will host in one year exactly
06:19 The Olympic Games. Yeah, and probably there's not a huge amount of sympathy either for the idea of retiring at 64 when in other countries
06:26 It's more like 67 now. That's very true. If you compare to European countries, for example
06:32 But in many countries if you take take an example like Italy Italy is 67
06:37 But when the 67 I mean the age was put forward to 67
06:42 That was three years ago and the Italians did not like it. They did not approve it
06:47 There was a big social crisis in Italy. So in the meantime, you have a certain level of
06:53 Understanding towards the French. Why do the French don't want to work as much as we work for example in Switzerland until 65
07:00 But in the meantime a lot of people say well from French people are fighting for something
07:05 We did not manage to fight and win. So there is a little bit of support
07:09 I mean 62 never sounded like the final destination 64 doesn't sound like the final destination
07:16 I mean it really does sound like people are tiptoeing towards 65, but there's a bit of denial on both sides
07:23 Well 65 in Germany 65 in Switzerland 67 years old in Italy
07:28 67 or 68 in Portugal so clearly 64 is not a final indicator
07:34 You are right. Keep in mind that originally in France 30 years ago
07:38 It was 65 and it was taken down to 60 years old by President Mitterrand in
07:43 1982 and the socialist government so I would say to come back to 65 would be rather logic
07:49 Why did the government did not go up to 65 probably because the government wanted to mitigate this reform?
07:56 But clearly it was not successful in terms of keeping social peace
08:00 Kick the can down the road for another government to deal with
08:04 Probably and that's the risk because if you have not the sense, you know
08:08 One of the reasoners why people are protesting is exactly because they believe this reform is not the final one
08:14 Another one will come so it's a way of saying we need to get something if you take us our pension
08:21 If you take two or three years give us something in return. Where is the return?
08:25 Thank you very much Steve for taking the time wait for tomorrow 6 p.m. What will be standing by?
08:30 Thank you very much Richard Verley author and France correspondent for the Swiss newspaper Blick. Thank you