Países Bajos se prepara para unas conversaciones "difíciles" sobre la posibilidad de duplicar su gasto en Defensa en los próximos años, según ha declarado a 'Euronews' el ministro neerlandés de Defensa, Ruben Brekelmans.
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00:00¡Gracias!
00:30Ruben Breckelmans, Minister for Defence for the Netherlands, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:39Thank you.
00:39Now we're here at NATO for the Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting.
00:43This was always chaired exclusively by the United States, but now it's being chaired by the UK and Germany.
00:49Has the US permanently walked off the pitch when it comes to this?
00:53Is it going to be consistently only European-led?
00:56Because that is a symbolic as well as a practical change.
00:59It has been taken over, the chairmanship has been taken over by Germany and the UK.
01:04I think it's very important that we all decided to continue the UDCG, the Rammstein Group,
01:11a cooperation of more than 50 countries to support Ukraine.
01:15I think it's also important that the United States remains involved.
01:18So today, virtually, Pete Hex said, the American Secretary of Defence, was also joining
01:24and also sharing how the United States keeps supporting Ukraine.
01:28But you're not concerned that the US is no longer chairing that?
01:32The United States has clearly stated also today that they remain committed in their support to Ukraine,
01:38that they keep delivering what they promised.
01:40I think that's the most important thing.
01:42I think it's good that two of the leading nations, the UK and Germany,
01:46have taken over this leading role also when it comes to the UDCG.
01:50And yet, as Steve Witkoff, the United States envoy or negotiator, is in the Kremlin today,
01:55while Pete Hegseth was online, we also see the US putting much more pressure on Ukraine
02:02when it comes to concessions during these peace negotiations.
02:05What's your own interpretation of this setup?
02:07We see a lot more reluctance from the Russian side to compromise and to talk seriously.
02:13So I think it is good that also more pressure is put on Russia,
02:17because they need to compromise to a larger extent, I would say,
02:20but they need to compromise much more than they are currently doing.
02:24I think what's also very important is that we continue the support to Ukraine
02:27and that we step up our efforts.
02:28I was in Dnipro myself 10 days ago.
02:32I saw, it was the morning after a big air attack.
02:34I saw the impact with my own eyes.
02:37I also spoke to some of the generals there who are leading the Easter group of the Ukrainian forces.
02:43And they were telling us that the fighting is more intense than ever
02:46and that Ukraine needs more and more support in order to be able to hold the line.
02:51And I think we need to do that because not only it's saving Ukrainian lives,
02:54but also if the position at the battlefield becomes stronger,
02:58then also the position of Ukraine becomes stronger at the negotiation table.
03:02And if the outlook for Ukraine improves and of Russia deteriorates,
03:06then of course Russia would also be pressured more to compromise.
03:09And I think that's important.
03:11Do you think any pressure has been put on Russia so far, though?
03:14It's hard for me to say because I'm not sitting there at the negotiation table.
03:18I don't know what the Americans are telling Russia exactly.
03:22I think it's very important that we keep the sanctions in place.
03:25That we also expand the number of sanctions, but also strengthen the functioning of the sanctions.
03:36Because we now see that those sanctions are circumvented.
03:39So we should do much more also on this to make sure that those sanctions are more effective.
03:45But of course, there are more ways in which pressure could be put on Russia.
03:49I'm always in favour of that.
03:51For example, also looking at opportunities to use the Russian frozen assets to support Ukraine more,
03:58because that would put both pressure on Russia and also help to support Ukraine.
04:03Do you think Belgium or other countries are any closer to agreeing to that?
04:07Of course, there are some legal hesitations.
04:10There are also some other considerations.
04:13I think it is important that we keep looking creatively at opportunities in order to use those frozen assets.
04:19And as I said, it is important because we need this continuous flow of military support to Ukraine.
04:24Because obviously the Netherlands has been a huge supporter of Ukraine with F-16s from a humanitarian perspective,
04:30from a legal perspective in terms of investigations into international humanitarian law breaches.
04:35But looking at your own government, there is a bit of a split.
04:38There was a €3.5 billion discussion between the government and the parliament.
04:44And one of your political partners, Geert Wilders, was against supplying more money to Ukraine.
04:50Can you tell us a little bit about the situation that you find yourselves now in as a Dutch government
04:55with somebody, a senior partner, really against supporting Ukraine?
05:01And how will that fare in the long term?
05:03So we, of course, in the Netherlands, we have a coalition with four parties and we created a coalition agreement.
05:10It took quite a long time in order to get there.
05:12But what we agreed upon is very clear that our support to Ukraine is unwavering in any dimension, also in the military support.
05:19So over the last few years, our support has been €3.5 billion on average.
05:24And that's why we also decided that we will spend another €3.5 billion next year
05:29and that we will accelerate and front load that support so that we can already spend €2 billion of this this year.
05:34Will the Netherlands have to maybe take money from elsewhere, other social services, health, education, housing and so on,
05:41to continue to pay for this, particularly at a time of such global instability when it comes to economics and finances throughout the world?
05:48So if we want to spend our, increase our defence budget by, to a large extent,
05:56so of course there's now a discussion about increasing the NATO goal and it's about serious numbers.
06:03So in the Netherlands we are around 2% now, that's what's in our budget.
06:06And if we grow to a much larger percentage, of course, agreeing on that in itself is not a difficult part,
06:12but how to fund that, how to finance that.
06:14And that will require political decisions that are difficult.
06:17There are three options, in theory, you either raise taxes, you cut spending or you raise your debt level.
06:23And those are all three are difficult political discussions.
06:26We are having some of those discussions now in the Netherlands, but that's only for next year.
06:32For us, an important moment is going to be the NATO summit in The Hague, in our country, for the first time in history.
06:37With the 32 countries, we need to agree upon a new NATO defence investment pledge, a new percentage.
06:45What would you think is the best option?
06:46Do you think that maybe this financial mechanism within the Coalition of the Willing might be something that the Netherlands could borrow off?
06:53Or do you think money should come from taxes?
06:55Because obviously the Americans are saying 5%.
06:57Maybe it'll come down to 3.5%, 4%, but it's still more than double what you're paying already.
07:03What would your preference be?
07:04So, I think it is important that in every country, whether it's any NATO member, NATO ally or any EU member, every country needs to have this political discussion.
07:15So, if we want to increase our defence spending, what type of political choices need to be made in order to fund that?
07:22And that's not easy for any of us, but we all need to have this national discussions, also in the Netherlands.
07:28And for me, it's hard to predict what comes out of it.
07:30And, of course, there are EU instruments that can support in this.
07:35But the lion's share of this should take place on a national level.
07:40Do we know any more in relation to this potential reassurance force or peacekeeping force or whatever that might look like after your meetings with the Coalition of the Willing?
07:50Obviously, I know the Netherlands would be involved in it in some way, but do we know what it might look like?
07:54And whether Europe could be there for a backstop to support Ukraine with the absence of the United States?
08:02Yeah, so I think the military planning has taken place over the last few weeks.
08:07So, it's now becoming more clear how a potential European involvement can look like.
08:12But what we do still see is that, you know, the Coalition of the Willing consists of around 30 countries.
08:17And different countries still have different interpretations on how such a military engagement should look like, what the objective is, what the mandate should be, how it would relate to a potential monitoring mission, which is something separate, but we should take place at the front line.
08:34Could it happen without the security guarantees of the United States?
08:37Could Europe and the Coalition of the Willing and other countries stand in for Ukraine in a way that Ukraine has been failed for so many times?
08:46We need to have the United States on board in the sense that they are playing a central role now in the negotiations.
08:51They are playing a key role when it comes to European security and also, of course, when it comes to the support of Ukraine.
08:58So, they need to be on board in some way.
09:01I think what we should do now is make sure that we have a clear plan, that European countries can also say, OK, this is what we can bring to the table, and then specifically have the conversation with the United States on what their role is going to be.
09:14But it's too early still to say more details about this, because there are still many different ways in which the United States can be involved.
09:21The Netherlands is trying to boost its military or expand its military, and you sent out this questionnaire to 18 to 27-year-olds.
09:28What are you trying to achieve by sending out a questionnaire to young people about potentially joining the military?
09:34What would be the objective here?
09:35The objective would be to have people think about whether they would be interested to join the military or whether they would do, as we call it, a service year.
09:44So, it's a one year in which young people can get to know our military.
09:48And after that one year, they can decide whether they want to join or whether they want to become a reservist or whether they want to do something else.
09:55All options are still open.
09:57We don't want to have any subscription.
10:00That's not what we are going to do.
10:01We want to keep it voluntary.
10:03But it's a way to have young people think about, you know, whether defence and whether the military would be something for them.
10:09But it's a seismic moment, isn't it, that you're doing that?
10:11So, we need to grow in terms of budget.
10:13Of course, we are growing.
10:14But we also need to grow in terms of the material that we procure, but also in the number of people.
10:20We have currently around 75,000 people working for our Ministry of Defence.
10:26We need to grow towards 100,000.
10:28And on top of that, we want to have much more flexibility.
10:31So, we need up to another 100,000 more, mostly reservists, to make sure that if tensions arise, that we will be able to mobilise more people in order to support our military.
10:43Do we know much about America's plans to potentially reduce the troop size in Europe from 100,000 to potentially 50,000 or somewhere in between?
10:52So far, they haven't announced any reduction.
10:55The US is committed to NATO, also when it comes to Article 5.
10:58They very clearly state that, but they also said that Europe should do much more, that it's not about burden sharing anymore, but about burden shifting.
11:05And what I see is a great willingness among European countries, including the Netherlands, to step up our efforts.
11:11And if then the United States over time decides to reallocate some of its resources to their own region, for their homeland defence or to the Indo-Pacific or anywhere else,
11:22I think the most important thing is that we do this together and that we create a shared plan in which they are able maybe to shift some of their resources to other parts of the world.
11:33And we, as European countries, can gradually take over some of those resources.
11:37But we need to keep the United States on board.
11:39They will remain essential to our security.
11:41But I think it's also in the interest of the United States to keep NATO strong.
11:46And that's also what they always state.
11:48Okay, Ruben Brettelmans, Minister of Defence for the Netherlands.
11:52Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
11:54You're welcome.
11:54Thank you very much for having me.
11:59Thank you.