The United Nations turns 80 this year—at a time when its credibility is under pressure. As wars rage in Gaza, Ukraine and Sudan, many are asking: Is the UN still relevant? But away from the headlines, the UN’s development arm, UNDP, continues its work on the ground—including in Malaysia, where it’s been present since the 1960s. As Malaysia pushes toward high-income status, what does meaningful development look like in an age of colliding crises? And as trust in multilateral institutions wanes, can the UN still deliver on its promise of peace, progress and dignity for all? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with UN Assistant Secretary-General Kanni Wignaraja, Regional Director for Asia and the Pacific at UNDP.
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00:00hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to consider this this is the show where we want
00:15you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day the united nations turns
00:2180 this year at a time when its credibility is under pressure as wars rage in gaza ukraine and
00:28sudan many are asking is the un still relevant but away from the headlines the un's development arm
00:36undp continues its work on the ground including in malaysia where it's been present since the 1960s
00:43and as malaysia pushes towards high income status we're asking the question what does meaningful
00:49development look like in an age of colliding crises and as trust in multilateral organizations wanes
00:58can the un still deliver on its promise of peace progress and dignity for all well here on the
01:05show to discuss all of this further is un assistant secretary general khani vignaraja regional director
01:11for asia and the pacific for undp welcome to the show khani it's good of you to join me it's nice of
01:17us to have this in person we've had multiple online interviews before but good to speak to you in person
01:23lovely to be here melissa let's take a look at malaysia like many countries in asia we've gone
01:29through many changes many phases cycles of development we've seen tremendous progress over
01:34the past few decades but right now all this progress is unfolding in a world that feels more uncertain than
01:44ever more divided than ever from where you sit khani what do you think is most at stake for malaysia right
01:53now well i think there's a lot at stake i do think that malaysia is handling this addressing this
02:01um wisely which is not to uh get um overly uh excited in short-term decisions but to to be reflective
02:13be reflective on what malaysia wants to be and uh you had mentioned the the drive to be a high income
02:23economy well for undp who has been here and accompanied malaysia in its uh different kind of chapters
02:33we've always said uh aspiring to being a high income economy is just one part of the story
02:42and uh certainly for us we want to see malaysia as a high well-being for everyone economy now of course
02:52for good uh well-being for everyone you've got to have a good income but it's not enough
03:01our people uh really do they have that sense of of purpose um do they have choices do they have
03:09opportunity um so our indicators from a human development perspective uh are much broader and
03:18maybe more ambitious uh than only improving income now i do love that that the um the vision for what
03:28development looks like is shifting um but when you talked about looking at long term
03:35often policymakers can get stuck in the short-termism of of decision making of policy making is it more
03:44difficult today given the election cycles given the short-term nature of politics to convince
03:53policymakers to invest in the high well-being nature of development it is more difficult um one can't
04:02uh sugarcoat that um at the same same time uh we have to remain hopeful that uh leaders uh but also uh our
04:16people right communities young people um just say it's not enough to live by election cycle
04:25and to demand more you know and to demand more but you can't just demand you've also got to give
04:33and that contribution is something you know in in un dp kind of uh terminology uh we would call that
04:42uh capability if you've got a capable set of institutions uh people uh who really are empowered to make
04:54their own choices in responsible ways then you look beyond income and you look at not just what's good
05:03for self but what's in the public interest and why do these two things have to be at conflict with each
05:11other right so the whole idea is to go for a win-win what's good for me is also good for you and is in our
05:21our shared interest so coming together and especially in today's world uh yes there would be uh some
05:29compromise including globally but it's not a negative compromise and this is for the un and un dp this
05:38is why when when you said you know the relevance of of the un is being questioned uh remember that's the
05:46one place where every country has a seat you could be the tiniest pacific island or you could be
05:56one of the wealthiest biggest economies in the world um and you have a voice but not all voices are
06:04equal given the security council veto power absolutely right um at the same time you can come together as a
06:13block of like-minded voices and ideas and still stand up uh and say this is what we want and we believe in
06:23so we know that you know the largest let's say um um carbon emitters um are hurting the smallest
06:34countries who have hardly any carbon footprint but pay a high price right because the climate and
06:41environmental impact on those nations are so high right and they can't do anything to mitigate that
06:48so they're furiously working on adaptation who's going to pay for that so climate is just one area
06:55and then you look at conflict and see the damage it is doing to communities that are not can i ask you
07:02from your perspective within the un i'm curious as an outsider to understand and the the your observation
07:09over the years are you seeing um a stronger collective voice from the countries of the global south is
07:18that is that strengthening are you seeing more um movement more kind of collective power within the un
07:26you know i think like many other patterns it ebbs and flows you know it's not a consistent it's not a
07:34straight line uh probably you see it around specific issues you know um at the same time
07:43when there's a strong uh demand um for a course correction you know um and we've seen this in some of the
07:54the development uh areas whether it's on development financing whether it's around uh the sdgs the
08:01sustainable development goals uh are coming together saying we need to come together uh to really uh see if
08:10change can happen because you're right i mean you know it's it's uh not an equal or just world um so
08:16you've got to you're stronger in uh in numbers right so you do see that um right now it's there's a lot of
08:25shake-up but i i do feel that um countries will find themselves back in looking at whether that could
08:35be neighborhoods you know asian for example right uh coming together uh or it could be around um a
08:44particular issue that they all need to stand together on and that a good example is in fact climate action
08:51um okay um coming to the un dp you um have been present in malaysia since the 1960s it's a long time
09:02to be in um you know playing a role in malaysia's history malaysia's development how has the focus
09:10shifted in recent years so in the past decades i'm sure the focus of un dp in the country has shifted in
09:182021 you know and this is um it's uh part of an asian story i would say which is that uh history matters
09:30and we have to understand and um be proud including while acknowledging um you know mistakes lessons
09:39learned uh from the past um and that's the only way forward so if i think about what we were doing
09:46here in the 60s and 70s um it was helping the country with its very first national development
09:54plan wow right so i mean it's it's really the very first one it goes back the first second third fourth
10:01you know um and then you see the shift to uh building capacity building systems you know and saying okay
10:10you know how having a planning framework is great uh but what about the the change in institutions that
10:18have to now deliver on the plan but still very focused on the public sector uh in those first 20 30 years
10:27okay um and then you see the shift to saying this country is is growing so fast uh doing doing well
10:37well all relatively speaking um but now what about growing the private sector uh what about the
10:45regulatory framework uh that allows a private sector to prosper um what about technology transfer right
10:54so some of the early technologies that came in we facilitated as un dp and growing the technology
11:03ecosystems so this is how far back for instance could you give me an example i mean you know if you look
11:09at and and this is not just malaysia if you look at a number of countries the early science and tech
11:15education uh the early introduction in fact we had a um amazingly innovative regional program based out of
11:25here called the asia pacific um it was active development uh technology program wow this is before stem was a thing
11:35in education exactly exactly so the early introduction of of computerization you know and then landing in
11:44malaysia and from malaysia to the pacific to uh the mekong countries um so this really i mean it it uh helped to
11:55to take also from malaysia lessons and take it to the first hard wiring and soft wiring of most of the pacific
12:03islands so in this next phase in malaysia's journey what do you then see what what should malaysia be
12:11focusing on we've built the institutions is it now about making sure they are future proof and resilient
12:20absolutely okay so sometimes it requires new institutions because i mean just look at how rapidly
12:28the world of ai has grown much faster than digital right um the whole uh framework of governing ai
12:36but also malaysia's ambition of being a regional maybe even a global hub for ai and applications of ai
12:46in different sectors in fact we will soon be having a seminar here on the policies and the practice of
12:55how do you use ai best for social protection now you can see this being applied across a lot of economic
13:05for social protection yes yes so uh across social policy across economic policy uh you're going to see
13:13the advent of it so instead of hiding away from it how do you get ahead of the ai revolution so yes i
13:21mean our new un dp's next five-year strategy starts in january 2026 um and a lot of the new the the green
13:32the the really green transition that the economy has to grow through cannot happen without the deep
13:42understanding of how do you govern for a green transition right right what does it mean to have
13:49young people skilled and re-skilled yeah to take this on so you know the the first few times um i
13:56interviewed you khani a lot of our focus or the conversation focused on poverty multi-dimensional
14:03poverty um you know measuring poverty understanding who gets left behind and who's not uh who falls
14:10through the cracks is malaysia now moving beyond those conversations moving towards another type of focus
14:18in human development you're right i would say you can't move beyond until you
14:25carry that with you right so it's so no one gets left right so you don't uh park it you've got to
14:32carry because every country doesn't matter what your wealth and income indicators are are going to be
14:39carrying pockets of deep poverty right so um you've got to take that with you however we've learned
14:48that a income poverty measure really doesn't speak to vulnerability
14:55so if you ask people why they feel vulnerable most people will tell you it's not because they feel
15:01they're poor it's because they feel powerless powerless yes or unsafe or insecure or that they face an
15:11injustice it's interesting that there's the you know it was amartya sen who really put this for me was um
15:20um who really put this very powerfully forward that it's not a sense of poverty but a sense of injustice
15:30that really uh keeps people down but at the same time urges action and that to me is why we look at
15:41mpi um that looks at a whole range of indicators but i would even say the human development indicators
15:49that say what choices do you feel you have what opportunities do you feel you have these measures
15:57that ask whether a country a nation feels well that to me is if we're doing our job right that's the work
16:08in this next stage that un dp will accompany the country on if i may take you off on a tangent just
16:13because i'm so interested in the multi-dimensional poverty index and i want to look at the global
16:20measure of that because it's been about 15 years yes since it was first launched yes and i'm curious to
16:26know in all this time that you've been tracking the data and analyzing these trends and uh and just how we
16:33understand and address um poverty and all its deprivations what have been the the trends and
16:39observations that you have tracked over this past 15 or so years about the way multi-dimensional poverty
16:46has changed has it changed at all is it rooted in the same deprivations so the good thing is that the
16:52global mpi it sets a standard metrics however every country then must take it and adapt it to its own
17:03culture right um it's almost like the way cuisines develop you gotta the taste is local yes so i mean
17:12that's it's really important so i would say if you just look at a global trend you do see that income
17:20poverty overall has come down right so and a lot of that has actually been in our region is india and china
17:27right who brought down in large numbers income poverty so now the averages start looking good
17:34yeah right but if you just start unpacking this you think is it only if i just take education
17:43right is it enough to track numbers of children enrolled in school
17:49instead of also asking what are they learning and when they come out of school what kind of human
17:58beings are coming out of school you know are these the citizens of tomorrow are these your leaders of
18:05tomorrow you know um so you you track differently uh in terms of the quality of learning of education
18:15um are these your confident entrepreneurs are these your social investors you know are they going
18:24to give as much as they take um so that's just on the on the education side same with health we realize
18:31that you know when a country grows richer they also the your nutrition standards shift right you take
18:40on more non-communicable diseases yes obesity rates go up you know a heart condition goes up um so it's um
18:52you've got to start looking at many more multi-dimensional is the word yes right so i know you like this one
18:59i do like this one remember three years ago you asking me and maybe even you know before um and what
19:06something un dp is now working on with government is to unpack the mpi for malaysia and what we will
19:15learn and find as we go along on this journey is that again there can be no national average you're
19:23going to have to look at this first by region and then within that by community because if you don't
19:31understand the the behaviors the cultural traditions the the hopes the anxieties of different groups and
19:40what they face because your your your coast is different to your inland your riverine groups right
19:48from your mountainous groups um it's just uh it's different you know and i i was just this this weekend
19:56um learning about um elephant rescue uh in malaysia yes uh in bahang and also tiger uh you know because
20:09the malayan tiger is on the brink of extinction absolutely and the you learn how much um we are like in in
20:21these kind of um species as a species um that we've got to look at metrics that work you cannot use the
20:30metrics for elephant with tiger oh yes okay right yeah so it's uh you've got to look at different groups
20:37um and find metrics that work with them uh going forward i i think of the so 80 years of the united
20:47nations and the 60 years of the un dp and all the work that's been done and the current circumstances
20:53in which multilateral organizations like um the un find themselves now you've got funding cuts um you
21:00know thinking about the trade-offs you have to make in your in your humanitarian work if i may ask you a
21:06slightly personal question can you um how do you balance your optimism when you visit countries like
21:14malaysia and see the progress being made and you hear about the grassroots efforts amidst the world
21:20where the reality is that it's becoming increasingly fractured increasingly uncertain and polarized how does
21:29that that duality sit with someone who works within of this type of work can you can you juggle the two
21:38um contradictions within yourself you know development is contradiction i mean every day we deal with
21:46duality otherwise i wouldn't get out of bed you know it it is the reality but it is true what you say that
21:54this current moment um is is is challenging it's really tough and that's not just because of a funding
22:04crisis you know the un and un dp and others have gone through funding crises before okay uh and we will
22:12come out stronger this this i know i think the issue is one of um the the the hold of the un charter
22:26it's one of the most powerful constitutions and remember this is a universal charter right
22:32uh people a world are coming out of the most horrendous walls right uh saying this should
22:42never ever happen again because there are some universal truths some a sense of universal humanity
22:52and and a humanness a human rights that we all stand for and protect to me that is what needs to be
23:01protected and that is worth fighting for so that is not something we will ever give up on and it cannot be
23:11taken away and people can cut funds we will find the funds and in fact if i look at uh many uh regions of
23:20the world particularly in developing countries the biggest contributors now increasingly i mean at the margin
23:28the increase is coming from developing countries investing in un dp to walk their journey with them
23:37wow so if i look at malaysia the money is coming from malaysia for malaysia with un dp so that is because
23:49malaysia realizes that when they needed us in the 60s 70s 80s we were there we brought in the funds we
23:58brought in the technology the expertise and it's countries like malaysia saying to us we still need
24:05you and now we can fund you and so that to me gets me out of bed yeah yeah it's a it's a lovely vote of
24:13confidence for the work that you do absolutely thank you so much for being on the show and being so candid
24:19and open sharing your insight to this thank you always lovely to talk with you thank you melissa
24:24thank you that's all we have for you on this episode of consider this i'm melissa idris signing
24:28opening up for the evening thank you so much for watching good night