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00:00The question that I wanted to ask was the idea of India.
00:09So right now, when we look at news and anyone who is reasonably aware would know that we
00:16are living in a world of identity politics and societal changes.
00:20And everyone you talk to, they have their own idea of India based on what side of political
00:25spectrum they are on and so on.
00:28I wanted to ask you in this day and age, how do we preserve and evolve the idea of India
00:34and what it is according to you?
00:35India is not really an idea, first thing.
00:45Ideas are things of the ego.
00:51Ideas are things of desire and imagination.
00:59Behind every idea is an ideator and the ideator is looking to get something for himself via
01:11the idea.
01:15That's not what India is.
01:19When we talk of the Indian nation, what is a nation, first thing?
01:28Basics, fundamentals.
01:32What is a nation?
01:35A nation is a set of people.
01:42It could be a very large set of people.
01:46It could be a billion people.
01:47It could be five billion people.
01:49The number doesn't matter.
01:52It's a set of people who are together on some ground.
02:03You get this.
02:06Who are united on some basis.
02:12Some basis.
02:15Now, that doesn't seem like a very deep thing to say because whenever people are together,
02:25obviously there is some or the other basis present.
02:37That basis is the basis of nationhood.
02:43Just as all the reasons that bring people together are not of the same quality, similarly
03:01the foundations of all nations are not equally deep.
03:14How deep is the foundation of a nation depends on the depth of what keeps those people together.
03:31Five people may come together to have a good time in the evening, nothing else to do.
03:43They may have a spare hour, let's just go out and gossip and that's what is keeping
03:50them together at this hour.
03:52Now this is togetherness on a very flimsy basis.
03:59A basis is indeed present but the basis has no depth.
04:04These five people have come together due to some little shallow reason.
04:13This togetherness will bring no goodness to these five or to the others.
04:23Similarly, nations have their basis.
04:33After all, all that you need is a set of people, a community where people identify
04:40with each other.
04:41They say we are one, we are together, we have something in common.
04:48I am more like this one than that one.
04:53I identify with this one.
04:56What is the basis of that identification?
05:01Why do these people think of each other as brothers and sisters or members of one community?
05:18That's the question to be asked and that's a very very important question because mind
05:25you we have seen history tells us that nations can even be founded on very narrow kind of
05:40basis, very shallow foundations.
05:51There are instances of nations where the founding principle was food habits.
06:02We all eat the same way therefore we are a nation.
06:09There are a lot of nations in the modern world where one of the important basis is language.
06:17We speak the same language therefore we are a nation.
06:23And what to say of geography?
06:28We live in areas that are geographically close by or adjacent to each other, materially contiguous
06:45therefore we are a nation.
06:51Are you getting it?
06:54So you live in the house next to mine, hence you are my brother.
07:00This kind of a logic.
07:03What makes you all call each other brothers and sisters?
07:08Well you know we all live within one kilometer of each other, hence we are brothers and sisters.
07:16There are so many nations that are founded on this, we all live at places that lie next
07:27to each other therefore we are a nation, one nation and why are those people not the same
07:36nation because they live far away, hence they are separate.
07:42We can even call them enemies because they live at a distant place.
07:48Does this make any sense?
07:51It makes no sense.
07:52Color of the skin, I am green, you are green, so we are a nation.
08:06We all are little green men and women therefore we constitute a nation and they are tall blue
08:17ones so they are aliens.
08:24What kind of unity is this?
08:27What kind of identity is this?
08:32Ethnicity, genetics, purity of blood, whatever that means, of course religion, the huge elephant
08:52in the room.
08:56We follow the same belief system, the same dogma, the same books, the same God, therefore
09:04we are a nation, are you getting it?
09:15So mostly nations are founded on such things, we follow the same tradition, hence we are
09:24a nation, you look at the seven of us, we believe in the same superstitions therefore
09:33we are a nation.
09:40Now this is divisive, this is violent, this is full of ignorance, this leads to suffering
09:50for one and all.
09:55India has a much deeper national foundation and hence I said India is not an idea.
10:17What is the foundation?
10:21India was wise enough to realize that anything coming from the human mind is going to be
10:31limited.
10:32That's what India did, went into itself, when the entire world was taking an outward direction
10:44India went into itself and going within it realized the limits within, the pettiness
10:53within, the constraints within, the darkness within, the ideator within, the one who keeps
11:02coming up with these smart ideas, how stupid is that ideator?
11:09You realize only when you develop the courage to look at yourself.
11:17So India said two people coming together on the basis of an idea or thought or principle
11:26can never be a truly great thing.
11:35I believe in something, you too believe in something, we share thoughts, so we come together
11:40and we call ourselves a nation that can never be a good thing.
11:46Now once you say that all possible principles that could become the foundation of Indian
11:58nationhood, they go out of the window because everything is mental and what is coming from
12:06the mind would be little and divisive, I'm saying India saw that.
12:15So what did India then put above all nationalistic principles?
12:20India said ruthless inquiry into the self, we will not stand for a principle, we will
12:31stand for a detached investigation into all principles, we will not stand for a dogma,
12:47we will stand for freedom from all dogmas, we will not stand for a particular idea, we
12:58will stand for examination of all possible ideas, we will not stand for anything under
13:09the sun, we will stand for liberation from everything under the sun, we will not stand
13:22for any product of the mind, we will stand for freedom from the tyranny of the mind.
13:30Are you getting it?
13:35This is the foundation of the Indian nation, this is what India stands for.
13:43So all nations are governed by principles and India is governed by freedom from all
13:48principles and that's what makes India free, liberal, accommodative, tolerant and therefore
14:00inherently extremely strong and vibrant, but only as strong and only as vibrant as
14:11is the depth of the Indians understanding about the reality of India, what I'm talking
14:27of is in some sense a utopia, you go to most people and they will say you know this is
14:37this particular ideal that governs India or these principles that are at the foundation
14:47of India, no, no, no, India is an ever existing quest to rise higher, never stopping at any
15:04principle, yes this movement some principle might look good, socialism looks good, but
15:15I'm not stopping here, I'm not turning it into into a dogma, I'm not turning it into
15:24a belief system, I'll keep striving for something yet higher that is India.
15:37The upward glance, the innocent child looking at the sky, do there have to be limits, no, no, no,
15:54ultimate freedom that is India, that is at the base of the Indian nation and as long
16:04as that remains as at the base of the Indian nation, India will remain eternal.
16:16India is not a political construct, India is not a thing on the world map, these are
16:23small things, the maps of the world keep changing, no, 1947 the map of India didn't have Goa
16:37and Sikkim, pre-1947 British India included Peshawar and Dhaka and there have been times
16:57when even Kabul and South East Asia and Burma, politically they were integrated into India,
17:18all that is the flow of time, India stands for the timeless.
17:30As a nation, India is extremely unique, all nations have a principle to govern them, India
17:45has inquiry to govern itself, India realized all principles are limited, all principles will
17:54ultimately breed violence and all principles will ultimately be destroyed, all principles
18:03contain within themselves their own destruction, the typical dialectics, you have a principle and
18:18some opposing principle will come up and then you will have something else and if you are
18:27invested too heavily in the principle, you will have heartbreak and you will suffer.
18:431947 political independence, East Pakistan, West Pakistan and they said the basis of our
18:53nationhood is religion, we are a nation, why?
19:01Because we are all Muslims, so even though the two wings East and West Pakistan are separated
19:10by thousands of miles of Indian territory, yet we are one united nation, Pakistan, did
19:18that last, can that last, can that last, you had Muslims here, you had Muslims there
19:31in East and in West, the ones in West didn't give much importance to the fact that the
19:41ones in East were fellow Muslims, when elections were held for the central assembly, the parliament,
19:56the Pakistani parliament and Mujib got a majority, the fellow Muslims in the West refused to
20:09let him form the government, but you are a nation and you said that if we follow the
20:17same religion then we are brothers, that didn't happen, ego trumps everything, ego does not
20:29care for any principle, all principles are for the ego, no principle is bigger than the
20:36ego, whenever there will be a clash between the ego and even the most, most elevated,
20:44most sublime, most refined of principles, the ego will win and how violently did it
20:53win, 71 has been one of the biggest genocides of the last century, obviously we know of
21:07the holocaust, but what happened in Bangladesh was terrible, it's not just that the Hindus
21:21there were butchered, Muslims were slaughtering Muslims, that kind of basis of nationhood
21:30does not hold, we are a nation because we are one religion, that's what Jinnah came
21:37up with, Hindus and Muslims are two nations, no sir, religion does not suffice to really
21:54hold a people together, people can live truly together only when they are united by the
22:06truth, an unwavering commitment to the truth and that's what India stands for, that's what
22:15India at least should stand for, an unwavering commitment to the truth, not to fanaticism,
22:33not to hooliganism, not to some nationalistic idea, but to the truth itself and to a great
22:51extent India has successfully done that over the centuries and that's why even when we
22:57did not politically exist as a state, yet we always existed as a nation, isn't that beautiful,
23:07they could come and take political control of our territory, that's fine, we fought back,
23:16but would have been much worse had we allowed them to take control of our insides,
23:27the foundation of India is freedom itself, we do not want to be dominated on the outside,
23:38but much more than the outside, it is extremely unacceptable that somebody dominates us within,
23:47I do not allow even myself to dominate me within, my interiors are a space so clean,
24:01I do not allow even myself to step there, how will I allow anybody else to intrude,
24:07that is India, to a lot of people this would be obtruse, they will say this is all just too
24:23abstract, it is not abstract, you must understand this, if you want to truly call yourself Indian,
24:32India is the I that wants to understand, I want to know, I do not dream, I want to know,
24:44that's what India is, that's the beauty and greatness of India and if Indians refuse to
24:59see and know, then Indians can no longer call themselves beautiful or great, India will always
25:09remain great and beautiful, but there is no guarantee that Indians would be automatically
25:21great and beautiful, it is a choice, it is a price you have to pay, it is always very comfortable
25:33within your belief system, within the paradigm of your assumptions and superstitions and desires,
25:46it requires guts to be a true Indian, one has to fight the battle within,
25:54else you can develop any kind of random way to separate man from man,
26:05you have lived in campus hostel, haven't you? Yeah, two campus hostels. So, so have I,
26:21now you enter the campus as a fresher and you are allotted a particular hostel and the allotment is
26:31often quite random, it depends on your entry number or your rank or some other random criteria,
26:36maybe the letter, your name begins with some criteria and you are allotted a particular
26:48hostel and then you are supposed to be loyal to the hostel and you are supposed to fight
26:54the other hostels down, what kind of basis of unity is this? Random, so random and you are
27:04supposed to commit your energies to this and you are supposed to really take the other hostels as
27:11your enemy, did that happen at IIT Bombay? No, that was one of the first thing that happens in
27:22first year. Same at IIT Delhi, just that, we all knew it was for fun, but then some of us did take
27:32it way too seriously and you are a kind of traitor if you did not participate in inter-hostel wars,
27:47there were instances in which people were actually beaten up. You can find any random
28:04way to divide people, within the hostel there were regional groups, so there was this group
28:15from Bihar, there was this group from Andhra, obviously from Tamil Nadu and you know all the
28:23places, Gujarat, you name the region and you have groups there. You didn't even have to have a,
28:38an entire state, we had a Lucknow gang, even a city suffices, we are together because we belong
28:50to the same city and hence everybody else is an alien. Let's be divided. The ego is always looking
29:05to create boundaries, only within boundaries can the ego survive. Now there is a kind of nationalism
29:17that deepens those boundaries and there is a kind of nationalism that destroys boundaries. India
29:30stands for the latter. Are you getting it? Just because you are born on Indian territory,
29:44the subtle fact is that you do not qualify to be called a real Indian. Obviously, technically you
29:58will be an Indian, you will hold the Indian passport and the entire world would call you an
30:04Indian. But you do not become an Indian by your place of birth, you become an Indian by your
30:15heart. Do you value freedom? Do you have love for the truth? Can you lay down your life for
30:29something beyond yourself? If yes, then you are an Indian. If no, then you are just an Indian in
30:38name. The kind of Indians who think Indian-less lies in cheering for the cricket team or beating
30:55other people down or berating other countries and avoiding to pay taxes while doing all that.
31:25India is a spirit. The spirit that you find in Vedanta, the spirit that does not impose anything
31:46on the mind, a spirit that just asks. The spirit that says, I want to know. It does not say, I
31:55already know. It does not say, my beliefs are correct. It says, no, I am prepared to question
32:01everything. I will not let any consideration be too much on me. Nothing is bigger than truth.
32:09And that's why you see India knows love. Because true love can only be towards the truth. All else
32:26is just attraction born of desire. Because India respected, and I hope it still does, the truth.
32:46Hence, India has known love. A love beyond territory. A love beyond ethnicity. A love beyond
33:04materiality. The true Indian would be a fighter and a lover. He fights what is untrue because he loves the truth.