In a compelling discussion on Rajdeep Sardesai’s show, former Lieutenant Governor Najeeb Jung and member of ISKCON Gauranga Das deliberated on the role of festivals in promoting inter-faith harmony.
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00:00So let me raise the big questions on this auspicious day.
00:05Do festivals help build bridges in the times in which we live?
00:10Can bridges be built during polarizing times, during festivals?
00:16Can politics be kept out of religious festivals?
00:20Can the festive fervor really build interfaith harmony?
00:25Or am I a dreamer?
00:27Joining me now, two special guests.
00:29Najeeb Jung is former Lieutenant Governor of Delhi
00:32and former Vice Chancellor of the Jamia Millia Islamia.
00:34And Gauranga Das is member ISKCON and Director.
00:37Appreciate your joining us, both of you, on the show today.
00:43I want to come to you, Najeeb Jung.
00:45First of all, happy Eid. Eid Mubarak to you.
00:48And happy Navratras also to you, Gauranga Das.
00:52That's the beauty of this country, one nation, many festivals.
00:56But to you, Najeeb Jung ji, do you believe that festivals can build harmony
01:01or with all the restrictions that government tries to now put,
01:04especially in Eid this time, Namaz yaha mat karo, Namaz waha mat karo.
01:09Do you believe some of that festive fervor is being lost?
01:12Rajdeep, thank you for calling me on your program, particularly with someone like Mr. Gauranga Das,
01:21who is such an eminent spiritual person. Thank you very much.
01:25Now, you know, this was an year which was the biggest opportunity for this government
01:33to undo many of the deeds of the past 10 years.
01:37The end of Ramzan and the beginning of Navratri, what a lovely occasion
01:44to understand the common rivers of religions flowing into this large Indian ocean.
01:51Therefore, I think that, and I was talking to a very, a friend of mine who is a very thinking person,
01:58that, you know, it's not a question of building bridges. It's actually a question of intermingling of communities.
02:05These are rivers which are flowing together and we have to help join them.
02:10Unfortunately, the last 10 years have been very bitter and particularly for the Muslim community,
02:17when all hints have been given by this government that you are the other.
02:24So, this year, now, while I appreciate the Prime Minister sending Eid gifts to people,
02:32I think that's a pretty facile gesture. The better gesture would have been, and it would have built
02:38tremendous confidence in the minorities at the gates of Racecourse Road
02:45and Rashtrapati Bhavan being opened by open invite to people of all religions, say a thousand invites each.
02:53It has been a tradition in India by Presidents and Prime Ministers to call people on Eid and meet them.
03:01And this was a particularly special occasion with the beginning of Navratri. Unfortunately, as you have said yourself,
03:10we have had a very bitter 10 days with restrictions on Eid, Eid holiday being taken away,
03:17you know, people not being able to say the namaz. Let me give you an example, Rajdeep.
03:24The Eid is a very special day and almost everyone, everyone comes out to pray.
03:31It's the end of Ramazan. Ramazan is a very holy month where the Quran was bestowed on the Prophet.
03:38So, at the end of that month, people come out in large numbers. There's gaiety, there's fun, there's eating.
03:46And when they pray, the numbers are so large in these large mosques that it's obvious that they will be sprinkling on the roads.
03:55Now, I remember my childhood that on the steps of Jama Masjid and beyond, people would lay down their prayer mats and pray.
04:06There is no hindrance to anyone in those areas when people lay out and pray. It's half an hour exercise.
04:14But it brings such pleasure to people all over the country to pray together and then to go to the homes of their Hindu and Christian brethren
04:24and embrace them and take sweets to their homes and their friends coming to their homes and eating together.
04:32Unfortunately, this year, all that has been negated. It is being repeatedly negated in the last 10 years.
04:40This was an opportunity which this government lost. Now, are there attempts by this government to improve things?
04:50I would say no. I would say that there are facial gestures made every now and then.
04:56But when it comes to the crux, then the message, at least, and let me talk of the Muslim community since we are on Eid and I'm wishing Eid to all of you,
05:05that this was an opportunity. The last 10 years, for example, you start with tabil talaq, you come into the CAA, you come into NRC,
05:15you have the lynchings, you have the bulldozings, you can't train in mosques. And today, Muslims can't construct a new mosque.
05:24Muslim graveyard spaces are restricted. They can't increase their space. So, what is the message that we are giving?
05:31We are telling them that you guys came to India and harassed us. You guys came in India and destroyed our temples.
05:38You guys came to India and harassed our women and therefore, this is the time that we get back to you.
05:45But in the 21st century, this is the time for love writing. It's a very very disturbed world.
05:52India can be a leader in telling the world that Muslims in India and Hindus in India and Christians in India live in a different tone.
06:02We must send that message. The young in India must be told that you are brothers and sisters, that there will be no love jihad,
06:10there will be intermingling, there will be intermarriages, there will be interrelationships.
06:16Our mahalas are one. Our lanes are one. Our language are one. And that is why I always say and often quote Bulleh Shah when he says,
06:25ke khelungi hori, keh bismillah. That is the India we know. That is the India…
06:32You know, you have been very evocative and I allowed you, you know, ample space to really reflect upon the times in which we live.
06:40And you've spoken about it beautifully. The need to bring people together to ensure that we are part of one great civilization in a way.
06:49Gauranga Das, was Najib Jang being romantic? Do you believe there is space in the times in which we live where politics now plays such a role in religion
06:59to actually look at religion as bringing people together rather than dividing it particularly in festive times?
07:06Thank you Rajdeep for inviting me and thanks Najibji for sharing your thoughts.
07:17I want to just begin by saying that, you know, the word religion ultimately comes from the Latin word religio,
07:26which is basically reverence for the God or conscientiousness or scrupulousness or sense of right moral obligatory duty.
07:35And basically, in terms of multiple religion, there are between 5,000 to 10,000 religions in the world.
07:46Five of them are Hindu. And, you know, the Islamic community is almost 25% planet and 15% is Hindus.
07:56One interesting difference is there are 50 countries in which are Islamic, whereas there are only three, which are predominantly Hindu, India and Nepal being amongst the two.
08:10So, there has to be some understanding of how we approach this topic.
08:15I would say that the fundamental is to figure out that all religions, irrespective of what their names may be, they deal with only five main principles.
08:30First is what is my current experience? Second is where do I want to go after death?
08:38Third is what experience I want to have after reaching that destination post death?
08:46Fourth is what is the path I want to take to reach that destination?
08:50And fifth is what are the obstacles I will face in this journey and how do I deal with it?
08:55So, whether it is Quran or Bible or the Gita or the Vedic literatures or the Guru Granth Sahib or any of these religions,
09:04they are all speaking about the journey of the soul, which is beyond one life.
09:11So, ultimately, one of the biggest challenges I see is when people do not understand the topic fully and they have not been given the context of what they are practicing
09:23and they have not been told that spirituality is a very beautiful way by which you can resolve one of the major pains which each one of us is facing in this day and age,
09:35which is the pain caused by identity crisis, pain caused by change with respect to our identity to the body,
09:43identity to our husband, wife, identity with respect to kids, identity with respect to money, identity with respect to social influence, identity with respect to our career.
09:53When we go through this change in identities with respect to matter, then all world religions are speaking about an alternative way by which you can identify with something which will never change,
10:06which is called the soul. And that's why it is called spirit or the spiritual path. And therefore, I would say that…
10:13But, sir, the spiritual path, just for a moment to stop you, but the spiritual path that you speak about so evocatively is being replaced,
10:23some would believe, by the politicization of religion of pitting one community against the other, making you more conscious about your community identity.
10:31And thereby making it them versus us and othering of someone who belongs to a different community.
10:38Where does spirituality then play a role if there is going to be this othering of those who have different religious practices?
10:45I don't really agree with this, Rajdeepji. I feel that in the last 10 years, there has been a tremendous amount of support
10:54which has been given to all kinds of spiritual communities in India.
10:59And I have personally interacted with many religious and spiritual leaders, including Islamic leaders.
11:06And there is a sense of confidence that overall, ultimately, people are looking for what?
11:12They are looking for some security. They are looking for economic development.
11:16They are looking for better infrastructure. They are looking for development.
11:20And the way the development model has been rolled out, it has not minimized any particular community or not excluded any particular community.
11:29In fact, all communities have been part of this development process.
11:33So you believe that there is genuinely sabka saath, sabka vikas, sabka vishwas is actually a reality? To you, it's a reality?
11:44I do feel so based on actions with several leaders of religious minorities and other people of mental sector
11:55across the various sections of society. My interaction may have limited my particular experience.
12:00No, but despite the issues that have been raised today, no, but despite the issues that Rajeev Jung is raising,
12:05he raises the issues of lynching. He raises the issue of, dare I say, the invisibilization, the demonization of minorities,
12:13the othering of minorities. You believe that sabka saath, sabka vikas exists on the ground because of a common development model. Am I correct?
12:21One thing I've realized is sometimes loud is not always large.
12:31So what comes out loudly in the media, unless we have a proper understanding of what the actual data is,
12:38it's very difficult to make a comment. So sometimes loud is considered synonymous with large.
12:44So actually, we have the data, we don't really have to come to a conclusion on what is really right.
12:51Because sometimes a lot of people who are benefiting may not have the means to be evocative or speak up that they are benefiting.
13:00Whereas if some few people are speaking out loud, that should not always be treated as, you know, the reality or the large.
13:07Rajeev Jung, respond to what you heard. Gaurang Das says, there's a lot of media noise and maybe that noise amplifies some of the more extreme elements.
13:17But there is, according to him, a belief that sabka saath, sabka vikas, sabka vishwas does happen, development.
13:23If there is a toilet which is being built, you don't discriminate whether the toilet is for a Hindu or Muslim.
13:28And thereby, there is a sense that you can build a mutual coexistence. How do you respond to that?
13:35Rajdeep, with due respect to Das sahib, I am eons, miles away from what he is saying.
13:44I do not know which spiritual leaders he is referring to, but I can take him to, he can come with me to any Muslim leader in this country.
13:55And with due responsibility, I can say that there is a tremendous sense of unease. There is a sense of fear.
14:05There is a sense of insecurity. And that holds true for the Sikh community and for a large extent,
14:14sorry, for the Christian community and to the large extent of the Sikh community.
14:20So, perhaps, in the halo temples that Das sahib goes, he may be meeting people who are comfortable.
14:31Is the fear imaginary? Is the fear imaginary or real? Is the fear built on stereotypes?
14:37Is the fear built on this propaganda machine that has been unleashed by, as I said,
14:42certain extreme segments that benefit perhaps from creating a divide?
14:48Well, then let's put your mouth where the money is. Why don't you and Das sahib come with me and let's walk the streets of Delhi
14:57and go into a Muslim area and without disclosing our identity, speak to them. Why don't you go to the JNU and the Jami Milia Islamia?
15:06Why would you not go to the AMU and speak to the Muslim boys there? And why would we not go to other universities and speak of enhanced communalization
15:15in the country in the last 10-15 years? Look, communalization has been existing in this country for many many years.
15:23Let's not put that under the carpet. The question is enhancement. Enhancement of communal
15:28feelings, enhancement of insecurity and a sense of injustice.
15:32So, therefore, I stick to what I said that we should not put these things under the carpet anymore.
15:39The elephant in the room is a communal society and the lion has to be bade in the den.
15:46People have to be educated. People have to be spoken frankly to and not pushed under the carpet.
15:52We must tell people that communalization is bad for the country. If the country is to progress, our youth must think on
15:59secular lines that of course the spirit is great. We must teach them the Gita.
16:05We must make them read the Quran. How many young people are reading the Bible today, for instance?
16:10How many of your colleagues are reading the Guru Granth Sahib, for example? How many people know of the greatness of Baba Nana today?
16:17So, let us come to reality and let us understand that the political masters of this country are playing a deadly game
16:25which is not going to pay in the long run. It is harming the country and we are trying to not admit and see the reality in front of us.
16:34Can I ask both of you and you, Gaurangadas, first to define, therefore, the meaning of true Indian secularism?
16:42The fact is, as I said, this is a country of many festivals, many religions. It's plural in the truest sense.
16:49It's a multi-faith country with one of the largest Muslim populations in the world.
16:54How do you build, what is your definition, Gaurangadas, of true Indian secularism?
17:00Thank you, Rajdeepji. Dharmam tu sakshat bhagavat pranitam, where we allow dharma to be implemented and to be practiced by all
17:11as per their particular faith, as per their shraddha. The Prime Minister, in his 15-point program for the minorities,
17:19has actually created enhancing opportunities for education, ensuring an equitable share for minorities in economic development
17:29and improving the conditions of living minorities by ensuring an appropriate share for them in infrastructure development schemes.
17:36But as I, just for a moment, just for a moment, you see there seems to be a double track.
17:42While the Prime Minister speaks the language of inclusion, you will also have those who will, from time to time,
17:48demonize Muslims, who will use the kind of language, which I don't even want to use on TV,
17:54which essentially makes Muslims feel that they are second-class citizens in this country.
17:59There is that language also which is consistently used in a way.
18:03As I said, you know, there are many people to speak on the Gita or they may misrepresent.
18:15Sometimes everybody misrepresent Aaj Tak or India Today the way you represent.
18:20So, you know, it's important who represents that particular, you know, denomination.
18:27So I'm just letting you know that there has not been an exclusion, whereas if you actually go and see,
18:36with respect to educational empowerment, scholarship schemes have been provided
18:41and there is Maulana National Fellowship Scheme, which has been worked into.
18:46And there is Naya Savera Free Coaching and Allying, which aims to enhance skills and
18:51knowledge of students and candidates from minority communities.
18:54But in all of that, where do comments like Love Jihad or virtually suggesting that an interfaith marriage in some way is Love Jihad
19:07or when politicians use words like Vote Jihad, you know, somewhere down the line doesn't that,
19:15in your view, promote a certain divide on the ground? Vote bank politics?
19:20I come back to it. When you politicize religion, where is the spiritual element then left?
19:25As you know, Rajdeep, India is an extremely complex society and the interaction of various kinds of cultures,
19:36languages, castes, sub-castes and various nuances so complex that it is not so easy for, you know,
19:44just a black and white analysis of the society based on some degree of analysis of specific silo activities happening in parts of the country.
19:55So if you look at SIKU or Kamao, one of the federal development schemes unleashed by the government,
20:02it's a skill development initiative for minorities and a mission has been launched by the Ministry of Minority Affairs
20:09for upgrading the skill and training in traditional arts and crafts.
20:12And I'm in Palghar district and I've personally seen how the tribals and the parties have benefited from all of these on the ground, you know.
20:21So more than 35 Gunar Hats have been organized at Delhi, Uchheri, Prayagraj, so many places.
20:28Naim Manzil, a scheme to provide education and skill training to the youth from minority communities.
20:33Gharib Nawaz, employment training program.
20:36So actually, I feel that sometimes we get trapped by the loud, whereas we have to actually go in a very organized manner to go, you know, based on data.
20:48And that's why sometimes I feel that there should be one election so that after all the elections are over,
20:55there is solid five years given for developmental work rather than election after election after election and the drama continues
21:02and nobody is able to actually shift between reality and what's the noise.
21:08Your definition then, Najeeb Jung, you heard Gaurang Das saying in a way he believes, he seems to suggest the practical reality on the ground.
21:17If government schemes are benefiting all communities, then in a way that's the way to promote coexistence.
21:24And equality. Your definition of Indian secularism and why you seem to believe it's under threat.
21:30You know, Rajdeep, by listening to Gaurang Das sahib, I was reflecting that this seems a speech on government publicity.
21:42Because the facts on the ground are dramatically different. And I think what we were talking of is what the communities feel.
21:54Now secularism, as I understand, is that you leave your religion at home, but we are equal to all in public.
22:03You and I are equal. We stand together as Indian citizens who believe in the constitution of India.
22:13You can be a good Hindu. I can be a good Muslim. I truly believe that a man who believes in religion has to be secular.
22:20That is my firm belief. And therefore, if you are secular, then you will not restrict namaz on Fridays.
22:29That you will open your doors to Muslims and not just allow the Kavariyas on the roads for 14 days and shower petals on them.
22:39Whereas other religions can look askance. In my mind, in a secular country, you will not ask Muslims to put a label on their shops
22:49saying that this is junk juice shop or junk meat shop. I don't think that in a secular country that happens.
22:57And that is something that has to be fought. So it has to be fought by government. Not by publicity in pamphlets.
23:05But look at hard facts what were brought out by the Sathya Sharma committee, by the Radhakrishnan committee, Ramachandran committee, sorry.
23:14And we have to look at what's happening on the field, in the digging up of mosques, in the regular demolitions that take place,
23:22in the fact that young boys are in jail. Umar Khalid has now entered his fifth year in jail and judges go and leave when his bail application comes up.
23:32So let's look at the reality on the ground and then look at the concepts of true secularism as we have, as we should have.
23:42And then I think that if we decide to follow the constitution of India, then nothing can take secularism away from India.
23:50That is the best possible document that we have in front of us, however much of a publicity we may do otherwise.
23:57You know, I've heard two contrary views and I believe that this is, we need a dialogue without the noise.
24:06We may have differing perspectives. Gaurangadas and Najeeb Jang may have given me very differing perspectives of how they see the situation today.
24:15But I'm sure both of you would be very happy to have and be part of an interfaith dialogue.
24:20We seem to talk at each other rather than talk to each other. Maybe that's one way forward, Gaurangadas, that you need to reach out.
24:27Yes, Najeeb Jang, you want to make a point? No, you know, we have been trying this dialogue.
24:32You know, Rajeev, I have appeared on your show on this. We have been dialoguing with the
24:37Rashtriya Sevak Sangh and we have been dialoguing for four years.
24:41We have been meeting members of all communities and trying to enhance better relations.
24:46We have tried our best and we are trying. The point is that we are not able to control.
24:52The lumpen on the street, the genie is out of the bottle. Now, I don't know truly the efforts that are being made by this government
25:00into putting the genie back or even is it possible in the next ten years. That is the monster that we are faced with.
25:07So, dialogue is on. We are talking all the time. Even recently we have had talks with the RSS and with the Muslim ulema.
25:15Each one agrees. We have had talks with the Muslim ulema. We have had talks with Sikh leadership.
25:20We have had talks with Christian leadership. Each one agrees with what Das Saab is saying.
25:25That we must dialogue and we must learn to live together. The ground reality is
25:29what I was talking of is dramatically different.
25:33You know, that's the question Gauranga Das, how do you get the average person to embrace the
25:38values, some of which were just represented by Najeeb Jander.
25:42You know, to me, India is about Jio or Jine Do. For me, it's about having Shrikhand and
25:48Puran Poli on Gudi Padwa and then also celebrating an Iftar with non-vegetarian food with my Muslim friends.
25:57Is that, you know, the uniqueness of India? How do you translate it to the average person on the street?
26:03I think a fantastic example has been set by United Nations Environment Program.
26:12And in 2017, they created what is known as United Nations Faith Earth.
26:17And they said, OK, there is one area where a common ground religions to unite as a common program.
26:26And that is how the earth is burning. And to achieve the sustainable development goals,
26:32we need the support of faith leaders across the world.
26:36I have seen over the last seven years, because I was appointed as a United Nations Faith for Earth,
26:43that across the traditions, when people come together,
26:47having a dialogue on how we can arrest climate change and support sustainability,
26:54we find that it's an excellent common beginning for a dialogue to happen.
27:00The heaviest thing to hold as per the Gita is grudge.
27:03And life is too precious to be wasted in repeated port mortems.
27:06And in the war of egos, the winner is the biggest loser.
27:10Those who obsess with what is wrong overlook what is right.
27:14And those who commit to nothing are distracted by everything.
27:17And all religions actually say that don't compare yourself with others.
27:21Compare yourself only with the person you were yesterday.
27:25And that all religions say that happiness comes not by maximizing our positions.
27:29But how do I communicate that to the average person on the street?
27:33Who is being almost fed a daily drivel of hate? How do I communicate that to people?
27:39How do I? Pyaar baatna bahut mushkil hai, nafrat phelana bahut aasaan.
27:44This is a dialogue from a Hindi film. That's the worry. That we can come to TV studios,
27:48talk about spirituality, talk about love. On the ground, those who are the merchants of hate,
27:54seem to be able to influence people's minds. WhatsApp groups, all designed to promote hate,
28:01Gauranga Das, rather than promote love and togetherness.
28:04Sir, as I said, media ka bhi bahut important jimmedaari hai, responsibility hai.
28:10And I would say that, as I said, the tendency in this world is negative spreads faster
28:18and speedier than love. And therefore, it is not necessary that more hate is actually happening.
28:27Again, I come back to the point that what you see being spoken loudly and largely
28:32may not always be the reality. And therefore, we need people's maturity to understand
28:39the ground reality better and have dialogue and consensus, cooperation and collaboration
28:46rather than conflict and competition.
28:49I do hope though, that those fine words that have been expressed will actually translate into reality.
28:54I agree with you. The media also has a major role to play. The media tends to amplify.
28:59Sometimes the more extreme voices has less and less space for voices of moderation, for voices of harmony.
29:06My attempt today was to bring two voices in the hope that their fine words will actually get
29:13translated to action on the ground. We certainly need in a country like ours
29:18to treasure the spirit of pluralism and harmony that makes this truly an incredible India.
29:25Once again, to all my viewers out there, Happy Eid and Happy Navratras.
29:30Happy Gudi Padwa, Navre, Cheti Chand, all the festivals of this great country.
29:36Bring them together. Allow India to become this unique melting pot.
29:41And to you, Najeeb Jung and Gauranga Das, I appreciate you joining me and not speaking loudly,
29:47but speaking in your own ways with different perspectives. Thank you very much.
29:54Thank you. Thank you, Najeeb bhai.