The New Education Policy (NEP) is at the centre of a fiery debate after Sonia Gandhi called it a step backward, claiming it threatens the future of India's education system. In this intense discussion, BJP national spokesperson Sanju Verma takes on Congress leader Aadil Singh Boparai to defend their contrasting views on the policy.
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00:00The politics over the national education policy now peaking, transcending the North-South
00:07divide, providing a political pivot to the fractured opposition, with Sonia Gandhi now
00:14stepping in with a three C's pronged attack, claiming that three C's are haunting Indian
00:21education, centralization, commercialization, communalization.
00:28In an opinion piece in a leading daily, Sonia Gandhi alleged that the NEP 2020 serves as
00:34a tool for the government to push its core agenda.
00:38No one can be forced to speak any language.
00:44While Sonia was silent on the three-language policy, the DMK supported Congress.
00:50We call that as a regressive policy, which will take us 100 years back.
00:55The Congress now also on the anti-national education policy bandwagon, giving tacit support
01:01to the DMK.
01:02The DMK returned the favor by joining the Congress in an anti-Waqf bill support, by
01:09passing a resolution against it.
01:12Sonia's claims, though, were strongly rebutted by the BJP.
01:16Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis said the government is imparting Indianness
01:21to British era slavery through education bid.
01:25The NEP and the Waqf bill, the new glue that binds the opposition.
01:38Top story on To The Point this evening.
01:41All right, let's take you now to the questions that we ask.
01:48After that column that appeared in a national daily, penned by Sonia Gandhi, upping the
01:54ante where it comes down to the national education policy.
01:57The NEP 2020 pushing a particular agenda, is it real fear or is it plain fear mongering?
02:05The second question we ask is a charge that the opposition has repeatedly made.
02:10Is the center covertly pushing a right-wing propaganda through the latest education policy
02:18of 2020?
02:20Or what the BJP has said, opposition only creating hysteria for political gain.
02:26What we are actually doing is moving away from a British era mindset and education to
02:32adopting a more Indian tenet where it comes down to India's education policy.
02:39The last question that we ask, ultimately, has the national education policy 2020, the
02:46politics around it reignited the age-old centralization versus federalism debate.
02:53Let's take these questions right now to our panelists this evening.
02:57Joining me, Adil Singh Boparoy, National Spokesperson Congress, Sanju Varma, National Spokesperson
03:02BJP.
03:03Before I cut across to them, I just want to inform our viewers, our panelists know that,
03:08that there's going to be a two-minute timer.
03:10The timer starts when our spokesperson starts speaking and automatically the faders come
03:14down once the two-minute is complete.
03:17Sanju Varma, to bring you in at the back, it's interesting because earlier on we were
03:22seeing a lot of opposition where the national education policy is concerned, primarily the
03:27part of the three-language policy coming in from the DMK and Tamil Nadu, supported by
03:33the Congress in Karnataka and Telangana, the Andhra government, your ally, had backed you.
03:40But now that proverbial North-South divide being transcended, a lot of support coming
03:45in from what one would suggest are North parties, the RJD coming in support, you have the Samajwadi
03:52party coming in support, and now Sonia Gandhi penning this article, practically suggesting
03:57that it's a propaganda you're running with the national education policy 2020.
04:02You know, Preeti, first and foremost, there is the famous Hindi ki kahawat, naach na jaane
04:10aangan pedha.
04:11Without wanting to sound offensive, let's get very clear, Sonia Gandhi is a 10th school
04:17dropout, Indira Gandhi was a college dropout, Rajiv Gandhi was a college dropout, Sanjay
04:22Gandhi was a school dropout.
04:24So the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, at least as far as education goes, that has not been one of
04:28their strong virtues.
04:29Point number one.
04:30Point number two, I've said this, and I will never get tired of saying that the NEP 2020,
04:35what are the key pillars on which this policy is based?
04:38The pillars are access, affordability, equity, inclusion, quality education, ensuring transparency
04:47in the teacher recruitment process, and most importantly, fostering a sense of national
04:54identity, be a sense of collective pride.
04:57And three, without wanting to compromise national identity, the NEP also encourages the use
05:05of native languages mandatorily till class five, and preferably till class eight.
05:11And yes, before the naysayers jump in, nowhere does NEP 2020 say that Hindi is mandatory.
05:19So the likes of DMK's NK Stalin, or for that matter, Congress's Rehwant Reddy, or for that
05:25matter, Siddharth Amaiya, if they have been running a false propaganda that NEP 2020 is
05:31about Hindi imposition, all I can say is that, thoda toh soch samajh kar baat kariye, in
05:38your desperate attempt to garner votes, you have started recklessly parroting a north-south
05:46divide which does not even exist.
05:49So my limited point is this, that you know, the south today has 129 odd seats in the parliament.
05:58Assuming the delimitation comes in, the percentage may fall marginally, but the overall seats
06:04of southern states will go up from 129 to 150.
06:08Alright, time is up.
06:09I'll circle back to you, Sanju Verma.
06:12Lots of truth in what you're saying, but there is also a lacuna where you say Hindi is not
06:15mandatory.
06:16Of course, Hindi is not mandatory, but the change that has taken place in 2020 is, viewers,
06:21that English at, you know, before 2020 was considered a national language.
06:26And in 2020, English has been plucked out and made a foreign language.
06:29So when you choose in a three-language policy, you will have little option in a lot of places
06:35because the NEP also proposes that states that don't speak Hindi, advises, adopts Hindi
06:42as their other second language, and states that speak Hindi adopt another regional language
06:48as a second language.
06:49By the virtue of that fact is what most political parties are saying, that you've practically
06:53made it mandatory, even though in letter it doesn't seem to suggest so.
06:58I want to bring in Adil Singh Bhoparai into this conversation.
07:00Adil Singh Bhoparai, if there is so much problem that the Congress has with the national education
07:06policy 2020, and I'll hark back to the one under Rajiv Gandhi's regime as well, because
07:11there are very few things that are quite different.
07:14One of them was a three-language policy.
07:16Of course, then in the early 90s, Tamil Nadu, through a virtue of a resolution brought in
07:21the House, went back to a two-language policy.
07:24But language wars have been coming in through your governance as well, number one.
07:29Number two, the second question I want to ask you, Adil Singh Bhoparai, if the Congress
07:33is so much opposed to the NEP, then put your money where your mouth is.
07:37The DMK has refused to adopt the NEP.
07:39Why have you done so?
07:41Even in places of contention like Telangana and Karnataka, you've adopted the policy.
07:46Well, Preeti, I heard a long-winding diatribe.
07:51You have two minutes.
07:52Go ahead.
07:53I heard a long-winding diatribe, but I'm going to stick to facts, and I'm going to stick
07:57to the erudite piece from Mrs. Gandhi from today's newspaper.
08:01Number one, and this is a matter of record, education falls under list three of the seven
08:08which for the benefit of your viewers means falls under the concurrent list where the
08:12centre and the states can both legislate on this item.
08:16Now, as a consequence to this, we have the National Central Advisory Board of Education,
08:23which comprises of the Union Education Minister and the State Education Ministers.
08:28Now surprisingly, since 2019, this body has not met.
08:34The central government has not convened a single meeting of the Central Advisory Board
08:39of Education on an item which falls under the concurrent list.
08:44So therefore, my submission is, for the benefit of your viewers, what you're seeing is a whittling
08:50down a dilution of education as an item under the concurrent list and centre's imposition,
08:58which is a breach of our federal mandate, number one.
09:01Number two, which is about communalisation of our curriculum.
09:05Now, it is a matter of record that the NCERT books have dropped the chapter which relates
09:13to the assassination of the father of our country, Mahatma Gandhi.
09:17Now, I fail to understand.
09:19It just baffles me that why would any government drop a subject or drop a chapter which relates
09:26to the assassination?
09:28Is it because Sardar Patel said that the RSS created an environment which led to the assassination
09:33of the father of our nation?
09:35Is that the reason?
09:36Or is it the reason that the BJP wants to rewrite history?
09:39So therefore, these are very pertinent issues.
09:42Number three, I'll give you another illustration, which Mrs. Gandhi deals with is that the centre's
09:47high handed techniques of withholding central grants in order to push it.
09:52Adil, just hold on to that thought.
09:54I'll circle back to you.
09:55Your time is up.
09:56The fader goes down.
09:58It's, you know, you hadn't joined by then, but equal time to the both of you with the
10:00timer there.
10:01Sanju Varma, I want to bring you in and let's, what Adil Singh Boparoy claimed, and let's
10:06put that out because one of the three C's that Ms. Gandhi has attacked the national
10:12education policy is on the basis where she's saying that there is a huge approach of centralisation
10:18versus federalism, which is the spirit of India.
10:22And in that, we put out the graphic there as well for our viewers.
10:25The policy in 2020 introduces a National Higher Education Regulatory Council, the NHERC,
10:34and central control over education, which has dramatically reduced the role of state
10:40governments, number one.
10:41Now, also, it undermines the federal structure and the autonomy of a state because of this,
10:47you know, the council in each state.
10:50Now there are also concerns that the National Testing Agency, the NTA, which, you know,
10:55you sat on many debates on the NTA, is conducting all major exams like CUT and other exams and
11:01might completely sideline state boards.
11:03So these are all credible, you know, questions that are arising at the back of the NEP.
11:12You know, Preeti, that was such a long winded question, but I'm not going to say that you
11:16were running a diatribe or a narrative or a false propaganda.
11:20It's your duty as a journalist to ask tough questions, which you are.
11:23You know, let me first make one thing very clear.
11:27Ms. Gandhi, you know, Sonia Gandhi's entire narrative in the editorial that she penned
11:32today was about Prime Minister Narendra Modi following the politics of confrontation.
11:38So let me just remind your viewers, because they are the biggest stakeholders in debates
11:42such as these.
11:43Who amended the constitution more than 106 times?
11:47It was the Congress.
11:48Who imposed Article 356, dismissing state governments, duly elected state governments
11:54with rabid and brazen impunity, more than 109 times?
11:58The Congress.
11:59Who dismissed 45 duly elected state governments?
12:02Indira Gandhi alone did that.
12:05Who issued more than 599 ordinances in the first 54 years that they ruled post-independent
12:11India?
12:12The Congress party, which means that they were bringing in at most 11 ordinances every
12:17single year.
12:18And then this lot has the audacity to sit and lecture on the politics of consensus versus
12:24confrontation.
12:25I just have this to say, today everybody eulogizes Babasaheb Ambedkar.
12:31But guess what?
12:32And I'm not going to shy away.
12:34You can say Sanju Verma or the BJP is obsessed with Nehru.
12:37But the fact of the matter is that after Babasaheb's demise in 1956, Pradhan Mantri Tabke, Jawaharlal
12:45Nehru actually wrote a letter to Dr. Rajendra Prasad and various other state chief ministers
12:51saying that Babasaheb Ambedkar was a controversial anti-national figure and hence a state funeral
12:59should not be accorded to him.
13:02Don't forget, 34 years after his death, he was given a Bharat Ratna when VT Singh was
13:08the Prime Minister and it was the BJP which was supporting his government from outside.
13:12So today, sitting here, we are praying to Babasaheb Ambedkar.
13:16Sanju Verma, your time is up.
13:18Allow me to cut across to Adil Singh Boparoy, you know, on a counter Adil, because you know
13:23what's happening is it's because any question can be posed, it seems the answer never quite
13:27corroborates the question.
13:28And I will ask the same question that I asked you again.
13:31The national education policy, since Mr. Rajiv Gandhi has been deeply problematic and history
13:36stands testimony to that, the number of protests that have taken place in the South at the
13:41back of it.
13:42So, number one, so it's never really been devoid of controversy, it's not something
13:45that this government has come in and suddenly turned and upended the national education
13:49policy.
13:50Number two, if there is so much of a problem and there seems to be now, then why adopt
13:55it in all the two states that are ruled by the Congress, the DMK has, like I pointed
14:00out, has put their money where their mouth is, they're refusing the fund, they're refusing
14:03to adopt the NEP at the cost of not getting over 5000 crores for education to the state
14:10by the centre, at that cost.
14:12Preeti, just to remind the BJP spokesperson, the topic of today's debate is the education
14:19policy.
14:20The answer to every question cannot be Pandit Nehru.
14:24Please, don't take this country for fools.
14:28We are an enlightened community.
14:30So therefore, let's deal with facts.
14:33Now, firstly, number one, let's discuss finer details.
14:37Today, and this is as per government data, 89,000 public schools have been closed.
14:44They've shut down 89,000 public schools.
14:48And as a corollary, as an alternative, you have 42,000 new private schools.
14:54So what are you seeing?
14:55You are seeing children who are from not very affluent sections of society being pushed
15:03into private schools and their exploitative techniques and tactics.
15:07What does the BJP have to say about that?
15:10Number two, what was the need to drop the preamble or what was the need to even move
15:15the proposal to drop the preamble from the books?
15:18It is inexplicable.
15:20Number three, which is very material, when it comes to appointment of vice chancellors
15:26in state universities, it has been a longstanding tradition, even during Mr. Vajpayee's time,
15:32that the state government has the prerogative.
15:34Today, what you notice is that the central government is using the backdoor of the governors
15:40to even encroach upon the state's authority to appoint VCs in their universities.
15:46How does the BJP justify that?
15:48Number four, you know, we have central universities like the IITs, the IIMs, JNU and other universities,
15:55the Delhi University.
15:56What are you noticing today?
15:58You are seeing that the educational or the prerequisites for appointment to these posts
16:04is being diluted so that the BJP can get compliant, pliant puppets, their ideologues into those
16:13important positions.
16:15So this is a larger ideological project.
16:18Mr. Singh Bhopar Roy, your time is up on what Adil also touched on, Sanju Verma, and the
16:24other C, we've spoken about centralization versus federalism, the other C was commercialization,
16:29privatization.
16:30Now the charges, we're going to play those graphics out, and of course, but it's a double-edged
16:34sword, Adil, so I'm going to come back to you with the charges that you've made.
16:37The opposition says, Sanju Verma, that the new education policy encourages private and
16:42foreign universities to set up on campuses, arguing that this could lead to massive commercialization,
16:48making education less affordable, and increasing the already steeped inequality in our education
16:56system.
16:57You know, Preeti, first and foremost, let's get one thing very clear.
17:02The BJP always sticks to the topic.
17:04It is the Congress which has this ability to deflect and digress from the issue at hand.
17:09As J.P.
17:10Nadda repeatedly says, latkana, atkana, bhatkana, yahi raajneeti karti hai Congress, and you
17:15know, every Congress spokesperson says, point number one, point number two, point number
17:18three, point number four, but people can see that Rahul Gandhi is a charlatan, Priyanka
17:24Vadra is a charlatan, Sonia Gandhi is a charlatan, so don't sit here and give bhashan because
17:29electoral politics, waha par aapko janta ne aayna dikha diya hai, Haryana you lost, Maharashtra
17:35you were wiped out, Delhi, you've scored a duck for the longest time, please do introspection,
17:40don't give out certificates to BJP.
17:42I will say this to you, Preeti, today, there are more than 776 universities, when PM Modi
17:49took charge at the helm of affairs in 2014, that number was a little over 386.
17:55Today, a university is being opened every week, a college is being opened every second
18:00day.
18:01How many medical colleges and schools were there when PM Modi took over?
18:04Barely 50,000.
18:06Today, that number stands at close to 120,000, which means almost a 1-4-0, 140% jump.
18:13Today, the intent is to make the GER, the Gross Enrollment Ratio, exceeding 50% in the
18:20case of higher education.
18:25The GER in higher education was not even 12%.
18:30And let me tell you something, since Sonia Gandhi's article talks about, you know, appeasement
18:34politics, minorities are not getting their rights, 11 crore minority students in the
18:42last 11 years of the Modi dispensation at a cost of 37,800 crores have received scholarships
18:50for both primary, secondary and higher education, particularly Muslim students.
18:55So when it comes to walking the talk, we do the job.
18:58When it comes to paying lip service, Congress is a past master at that.
19:02And my final point, Preeti, is this.
19:05Your time is up.
19:07Hold on to that point for your last one minute.
19:09You'll get that one minute in the end.
19:11Adil Singh Bopuroi, I want to bring you in at the back of the same claim that you make
19:15of commercialization.
19:16The flip side to that is also globalization.
19:19Foreign universities come in, Adil Singh Bopuroi.
19:21Why shouldn't the students in India be exposed to international global standards of education,
19:26which the new NEP actually promises?
19:29By the virtue of that, you're also allowing Indian universities to get a larger interdisciplinary
19:34culture, which was never possible earlier.
19:36You can focus on public education, but why not, you know, give that choice and allow
19:42the students to partake in global standards as well?
19:46Well, Preeti, one thing is evident that the BJP spokesperson is unprepared to talk about
19:51education and she's resorting to abusing the Congress party leadership.
19:55I condemn this in the strongest possible terms.
19:58Number one.
19:59Number two, again, the BJP is missing the woods for the trees.
20:04What is Mrs. Gandhi advocating?
20:06She is saying that you must put out and allocate sufficient resources when it comes to catering
20:14to those sections of society which cannot access private schools.
20:19What is so wrong about it?
20:21We are all for adopting best practices.
20:24We are all for globalization.
20:26We are all for improving the quality of education and taking it to a more rarefied level.
20:31The problem is that the BJP is doing is that it is strangulating public resources.
20:39It is strangulating money to the public schools, forcing them to shut down, and it is allowing
20:45for profiteering of private schools.
20:48This is what Mrs. Gandhi is saying.
20:50Number one.
20:51Number two, you know, despite Ms. Verma's diatribe, I have still not got an answer.
20:58Why is it that the Central Advisory Board of Education, a body which has been dedicated
21:06for consultation between the center and the states, not had a single meeting for the past
21:11six years?
21:12What justifies the center's autocratic mindset to push forward its ideological project when
21:20it comes to education?
21:21If you're so against education falling under list three, then come out with an amendment.
21:26Why are you hiding behind all this?
21:28Why are you using the backdoor of the governor to push your project?
21:32Then come out clean.
21:34The fact is today education is under list three of the seven schedule.
21:39So please do not throttle state governments.
21:43Please do not hold back on our resources.
21:45Do not withhold our resources.
21:47Stop bullying us.
21:49This cannot continue any longer.
21:50Time up.
21:51Adil Singh Bopura and Sanju Verma, I'll give you the last minute each.
21:54We've spoken about the two C's.
21:56Commercialization, number one.
21:58Centralization, number two, was the charge.
22:00And the third is communalization.
22:02And that is a touchy topic, Sanju Verma, because there is a sense that the opposition has made
22:07their case that there is an attempt to communalize, saffronize, and the RSS-ization of Indian
22:14education through this policy.
22:17Preeti, now I don't want to be interjected.
22:19Let me say one thing very clearly.
22:21You know, Sanju Verma, there is saffronization.
22:24There is RSS-ization.
22:26You know, the entire education system has been colored in the color of God.
22:32I think this is a lot of balderdash.
22:34And I'll tell you why.
22:35Because the public doesn't feel so.
22:38And that is precisely the reason the Congress and its allies could not even get 28 seats
22:44to be technically holding position of leader of the opposition in Maharashtra.
22:55The second and most important point, Preeti, why have you not asked this question to the
23:00Congress?
23:01Because if you keep asking the BJP, Sanju Verma, opposition says this, opposition says
23:05that.
23:05Next time, ask the opposition.
23:07Sanju Verma and the BJP say, who got 27% OBC quota to UG and PG students in medical colleges
23:16and dental colleges?
23:18Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
23:20Who got 10% quota to EWS for UG, PG students in medical colleges and dental colleges?
23:26Also, Sanju Verma, I've been asking the same question.
23:27Ma'am, you have to hear the question that I asked the opposition as well.
23:31And that's the question.
23:32I will flip it around, Adil Singh Bhoproi, because the question is very clear.
23:35You call it Saffronization.
23:38Then the BJP makes it very clear.
23:40They say this is Indianization.
23:41You've been living under the British culture and then pandering to that.
23:47And the people have answered through electoral polling.
23:52Preeti, I want to wear my hat as an ordinary citizen of this country.
23:57And this is to all your viewers.
23:59What justifies removing the chapter on the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi from the NCERT
24:07books?
24:08This is for your viewers.
24:10Why is the BJP determined to remove any reference to the assassination of the father of our
24:18nation?
24:19And I would urge the BJP spokesperson to respond that what is their mischievous agenda behind
24:24this, number one.
24:26Number two, what you saw today on your program was a brazen display of arrogance.
24:33There is no other word to describe but arrogance.
24:36We are discussing such a sensitive topic, a topic which will decide where our trajectory
24:44will go, such as education.
24:45You need consultation.
24:47You need best practices.
24:49You need an exchange of honest ideas.
24:51And what do you get from the BJP?
24:53Abuses.
24:55Your time is up.
24:56I'm afraid that's all the time that we have for right now.
24:58We're going to close this debate.
24:59But it's something that's going to come up for debate in days to come.