In this edition of our talk show from Brussels, the participants discuss the new beginning in Syria, the continuation of diplomacy in Ukraine and the allegations of bribery in connection with the Chinese telecoms giant Huawei.
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00:00Hello and welcome to Brussels, my love, our weekly talk show from the heart of Europe
00:17where we chat about what drives the conversations in the EU.
00:21I'm Stephan Grobe, thanks for tuning in.
00:25Coming up this week, for the first time, a Syrian government representative participated
00:30in an international conference on the war-torn country.
00:34It happened in Brussels, where support for the new Syria was discussed.
00:39But the latest slide into violence prompted difficult questions about the EU's recent
00:44decisions to lift sanctions, making some EU member states uncomfortable.
00:49Are these political gestures premature?
00:52Is Syria ready for a new beginning – or not?
00:57And it's a glaring fact – negotiations on Ukraine are taking place between the United
01:02States and Russia, and Europe isn't at the table.
01:06Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin spoke on the phone this week, and Ukraine is open to sanctions
01:11being relaxed, and European countries striking economic deals with Russia.
01:17Are Washington and Moscow moving closer to a ceasefire?
01:21How do the Ukrainians picture a lasting peace deal?
01:26A lot of tough questions here for our guests today, and here they are.
01:30Richard Lewis, Senior Associate at the Brussels School of Governance, Sarah Wheaton, Chief
01:36Policy Correspondent at Politico, and Petras Austrivitas, Member of the European Parliament
01:42representing Renew Europe from Lithuania.
01:46Welcome to all of you.
01:49But before we get started, let's take a look at the current situation in Syria.
02:00A new era is dawning in Syria.
02:03A few days ago, the new leader of the war-torn country signed a provisional constitution
02:09governing the five-year transition period.
02:14This declaration came three months after the rebels unexpectedly toppled the regime of
02:18Bashar al-Assad.
02:20This led to calls for a new, inclusive Syria that respects individual rights, including
02:26those of women.
02:28The new leadership faces a daunting task.
02:32Eighty percent of the electricity grids, 60 percent of the water networks, and almost
02:38half of the health infrastructure have been destroyed.
02:4316.7 million people are in urgent need of aid, the highest number recorded since the
02:49conflict began 14 years ago.
02:54But Syria continues to be rocked by violence.
02:57In early March, security forces killed almost 1,500 civilians, most of them members of the
03:03Alawite minority to which the Assad family belongs.
03:10Is this the justice for the victims and survivors promised by the new rulers?
03:15Is the process of healing and overcoming division realistic, or just a pipe dream?
03:20Yeah, well, for me, that is the fundamental question.
03:27Petras, I want to start with you.
03:29Is Syria ready for a democratic new beginning?
03:34Is there anything that can give us hope?
03:37Kayakalis has said that hope is hanging on a thread.
03:42Well, I should start from my appreciation probably because of the EU's role in arranging
03:50this conference and having the new Syrian leadership here in Brussels and speaking about
03:56future.
03:57I don't know how much democratic that future might be.
04:00I'm not over-optimistic about this, but inclusive, peaceful transition, agreeing with all major
04:08minority groups in Syria, I think this is very, very fundamentally important.
04:14So that's why I hope EU will be an active partner, not just providing some financial
04:20support but as well imposing some conditions and monitoring the implementation of those
04:26still very fragile, very provisional, but still important agreements on Syria's future.
04:33Richard, where do you see hope?
04:36I'm afraid I'm very cautious about this because Syria has no democratic tradition.
04:42Syria remains a highly unstable country.
04:46It's an unstable country in an unstable region.
04:49And furthermore, the Russians have a base there, and that plays into the whole scenario.
04:57So I'm cautiously – I wouldn't say optimistic, but I'm cautiously –
05:03Something like that.
05:07They need to be encouraged.
05:10They need to be helped.
05:12And Syria needs to be taken into account in the whole regional development.
05:16Yeah.
05:17They need to be helped.
05:18That's a good word here.
05:22At the donor conference in Brussels this week, the EU committed to working with the new Syrian
05:27leadership, pledging almost 2.5 billion euros in further support.
05:32But the EU also says this hinges on a credible and inclusive transition.
05:39So basically what we're seeing now – is this credible, what we're seeing?
05:44And is the money enough?
05:45I mean, look, it's hard to tell.
05:48As the video mentioned, a new transitional temporary constitution was just signed.
05:54It enshrines Islamist law, basically, for another five years.
05:59Now one of the ministers has said, look, in addition to that, we're also guaranteeing
06:05freedom of the press, freedom for minority rights.
06:10And now there's a committee that will be working on creating a more permanent constitution.
06:15But the big question is, will minority groups be included in this process?
06:21And as for whether the funds are enough, basically the needs keep growing.
06:25My colleagues at Politico just reported this week that USAID, the big U.S. humanitarian
06:32development agency that Trump is basically abandoning, they just pulled a lot of money
06:38out of some camps housing ISIS-linked people that the Kurds are running.
06:45Now we'll have to see how Europe deals with 55,000 people.
06:49Yeah.
06:50The one potential sign of hope was the deal that was signed between the current leadership
06:56and the Kurds, right?
06:59Was it – von der Leyen called it a historic deal.
07:03Is that – obviously we can only move forward here in very, very small steps.
07:08But is this something that you were so cautiously optimistic – is something that points in
07:13that direction?
07:14Well, I think the Kurdish situation is very complex.
07:18The Kurds live in – I haven't made a count, but three or four countries.
07:23Kurdistan as a nation concept is far away.
07:28And my experience in the past in Iraq tells me that although the Kurds are a group of
07:36people who are extremely capable of governing themselves, that is not on the horizon.
07:43One positive thing is that the Turks seem to be moving in direction of creating a peaceful
07:48situation with their Turkish population, which is positive.
07:52Yeah.
07:53And Petras, yeah, you wanted to weigh in.
07:55I mean, probably – I mean, speaking about Syria, let's not overlook the geostrategic
07:59situation.
08:01So we have strong and much interested players like Turkey, like Israel.
08:08On Turkey, look, President Erdogan is probably the one who won against Assad regime as well
08:16as Russians in Syria.
08:19So his behavior, his future behavior will predominantly probably influence the situation
08:25in Syria as well as towards Kurdish population.
08:31So it depends on many circumstances.
08:34Israel, still at war with Hamas, and we know, I mean, certain links to Syrian groups.
08:41So that's why I think it's not just about the transitional government.
08:45It's much about the bigger picture, which is more complex and not less complicated.
08:52Yeah.
08:53What – the influence of Erdogan and Israel, would that lead to more democratic structures
08:58or the opposite?
09:00Sarah.
09:01I mean, I'm not sure if either of them are necessarily interested in that.
09:06I think stability would be the priority.
09:08And the interesting thing also is Israel and Turkey are at odds as well.
09:13We've seen reports that Israel has been pushing the U.S. and Russia to sort of allow Russia
09:21to reassert itself in Syria, which, of course, could inflame other geopolitical tensions
09:30around the world.
09:31Yeah, yeah.
09:32There were, in early March, there were these killings, more than 1,000 people.
09:34Our video says 1,500.
09:36That's probably closer to the truth of sectarian killings of basically old times, right?
09:45And this is something that gave many European leaders some pause right after they lifted
09:53some sanctions.
09:55Now, the current leadership – I always say current leadership – says they're going
10:01to investigate these things.
10:05And again, is this credible?
10:07Because many people have doubts here.
10:09Richard.
10:10Well, is it credible?
10:13I think probably it is credible.
10:16I think this – the current leadership in Syria has shown goodwill, and we have to give
10:22them a chance.
10:23If we don't give them a chance, nothing will happen.
10:28But it's impossible to impose democracy on a country.
10:31I mean, that is something which has to be homegrown.
10:34It can be encouraged.
10:35There are different ways of doing that.
10:37Absolutely, yeah.
10:39But it's not – And it happens in other parts of the world, especially in the Middle
10:43East, right?
10:44Every transition towards democracy is difficult and bumpy.
10:48Syria is experiencing that right now.
10:51We spoke to Kawa Hassan from the Stimson Center in Washington about what the current
10:57leadership needs to do and where things can go really wrong.
11:01Take a listen.
11:03First and foremost, the transition process should be inclusive in deeds, not only in
11:09words.
11:10The government should include representatives of all communities in Syria, not only the
11:16group that belongs to the current Syrian president.
11:20And at the same time, the Syrian Government should hold those armed groups who committed
11:27massacres in coastal areas – again, their alibis – they should be held accountable.
11:32Otherwise, we'll be back to square number in Syria.
11:37And should things go completely out of control, that will lead to a new wave of migration
11:43of refugees towards Europe, and that is the last thing currently Europe wants to see coming
11:49out of Syria.
11:50All right.
11:51So three things he wants to see happening here – inclusive governments, justice, and
11:55no way – Accountability.
11:58Accountability, exactly.
12:00So this risk here of another mass exodus of Syrians, is that serious?
12:06Is that something that you guys in parliament talk about as well?
12:11I think we have to be very serious not to have too much of expectations.
12:17I mean, it will take time.
12:18Rightly said, accountability, justice, and reconciliation.
12:22It doesn't happen over the night, especially in Syria, which has decades-long kind of civil
12:28war.
12:29I mean, a lot of atrocities, really genocidal, almost like genocidal crimes committed at
12:39such a large scale.
12:41Well, as well as Richard, I'm cautiously optimistic.
12:48Is the transitional government in full control?
12:50Will be no exodus – next exodus – I mean, reflecting the still tense situation domestically.
12:58So that's why we should not, you know, be too optimistic about results of lifting sanctions.
13:04We have to be on the ground, monitor, talk to the transitional government, and really
13:09not just asking, but demanding some actions which must lead to more justice and confidence-based
13:17–
13:18Lifting of sanctions is basically a gesture towards the Syrians, saying, okay, we're
13:22ready to support you, but now you have to deliver, right, Sarah?
13:26Exactly.
13:28Yeah, but I mean, at the same time, European governments are just desperate to not only
13:33not accept more Syrian refugees, but send the ones that they have home.
13:38So there's also interest in lifting sanctions to improve the situation on the ground in
13:43Syria.
13:44But the bottom line is even before Assad fell out of power, we were reporting that European
13:49governments were starting to say, can we call Syria a safe place?
13:52Can we send people back?
13:54Since this new government has come in, many countries have said we're going to pause
13:57asylum applications so that domestic exigency is a huge factor here.
14:03Yeah, yeah.
14:04I mean, nobody wants refugees – more refugees coming out of Syria.
14:07We don't want it.
14:08The Syrian leadership doesn't want it.
14:10Richard.
14:11Yeah, but you can't impose asylum conditions on countries.
14:16It's extremely difficult.
14:19You have to remember that asylum is an individual right.
14:23To apply for asylum, it belongs to the individual and not to a group of people.
14:28And that means that you can't impose returns on a group of people like some political parties,
14:36particularly in Germany, seem to want to do.
14:39So I think this whole asylum issue is – especially since you have to realize this has been going
14:47on since 2011.
14:49Not only has there been civil war in Syria, but there have been earthquakes, and unemployment
14:56is very, very high, education has been interrupted.
15:00You can't just send people back.
15:03Everything has to be considered on an individual basis, which is a hard thing to do.
15:06Right.
15:07How can Europe help here?
15:09Obviously, money is always an issue.
15:11I was thinking when I prepared this conversation of South Africa.
15:17They had this Truth and Reconciliation Commission, remember that, following apartheid.
15:23That's something that Europe could help to set up, because if there is no reconciliation,
15:29there's no need for education or labor or whatever.
15:33That's the main – that's the crucial thing here, right, Sarah?
15:36Yeah.
15:37I mean, the question is to what extent does Europe have credibility to oversee that process.
15:43And I'm not convinced that we're far enough along sort of in the peace process
15:50to start a truth and reconciliation process.
15:54Mattress.
15:55Syria lost a whole generation.
15:59It's big.
16:01And let's not be naive, I mean, but as – by organizing one conference, two conferences,
16:07or sending 2 billion in assistance, it will change the overall situation.
16:13So we have to be patient and we have to be constructively involved, not to just believe
16:17that one-time decision will fix all the – I mean, overwhelmingly complicated problems
16:25in Syria.
16:26So that's why patience, engagement, as well as cooperation with regional powers, it's
16:32unavoidable.
16:33I want to go back to this – the series of crimes committed recently.
16:38The government has promised to bring the perpetrators to justice, but there are doubts
16:44about this and about the functioning of the justice system.
16:48We reached out to human rights lawyer Mariana Karkootli in Damascus to learn more on this.
16:54She pointed out a very telling detail.
16:58Have a listen.
16:59I think there is a huge critique by civil society actors who are working, also including
17:05us, by the fact that transitional justice efforts should be priority and should be focused
17:10on more in reality.
17:13We also see that certain detention facilities are being reused by the Syrian interim government,
17:18which is a huge problem at the moment.
17:20We're talking about the country that has been under dictatorship for 54 years, where
17:24those detention facilities were used to torture political opponents, and now they are being
17:30reused, where, from our perspective, these are not to be reused ever.
17:35Nevertheless, I would say that Syria remains unsafe.
17:39Okay.
17:40Syria remains unplaced.
17:41On this reuse of torture prisons, I mean, it's still – you can argue, well, it's
17:48a question of real estate and local spots, but it's obviously of big, big symbolic
17:56value here, that they're reusing it.
18:00You mentioned in Germany after 1945 they had used camps that were used by the Nazis, Petroz.
18:07How does that smack?
18:09I think this is, I mean, a major element of future reconciliation and trust into, I mean,
18:16into state.
18:17In fact, I mean, now Syrians are facing new state-building exercise.
18:22So they have to rebuild, sometimes build anew, and build a new relationship.
18:28I mean, it's a new society.
18:29Look, I mean, those semi-Greeks who are to come from Turkey or Europe or countries around,
18:36they will bring own grievances as well, experience, expectations.
18:41But it should be something very fundamentally right, built in Syria itself by our efforts
18:50as well.
18:51I mean, to create this kind of justice-based system that no repetition of crimes has been
18:59before, some openness, inclusiveness.
19:05It's easy to say, difficult, I mean, to perform, but it's a great challenge for EU itself.
19:10I mean, we can't turn around once – I mean, we will meet first or second problem
19:16or, I mean, complication in implementing.
19:18So let's be engaged and not be too naive and expecting quick results over the night.
19:24Well, big chance, but also big chance, right?
19:26I mean, let's assume for the sake of argument that this democratic experiment in Syria succeeds.
19:33What impact would that have on the entire Middle East, on Syria's neighbouring country
19:40when we have a successful experiment of democracy here?
19:45Well, it can only be positive, but I wouldn't like to say that it's going to have a major
19:50impact on the Israel-Gaza situation.
19:52I don't think so.
19:53I think if Syria becomes a peaceful, democratic, gradually democratic country, it can only
20:00be a good thing.
20:02But don't let's exaggerate the impact of it.
20:07While I have the floor, my take on Syria is that you can't, as I said before, you
20:17can't impose democracy.
20:18I draw on my experience in Bosnia, look at the mess that is still there, where the high
20:24representative has had to step in and tell them what to do.
20:29I mean, it's not obvious.
20:31You've got groups of people in Bosnia who, if you like, can be compared to groups of
20:37tribes and so on in Syria.
20:40One situation is never like the other, but it's not a bad analogy.
20:44Right.
20:45So no change without a sense of ownership.
20:48This is very important.
20:49I mean, we can't impose exactly as Richard said.
20:52Yeah.
20:53Sarah, please.
20:54Yeah.
20:55And I think we can't underestimate the geopolitical risk of the perception within Syria by minority
21:01groups that they're being left out, that they're falling behind, because Russia consistently
21:07loves to use the excuse of, oh, we're just intervening to help minority groups here.
21:15And they are primed to reassert themselves in Syria if that perception continues.
21:19Yeah.
21:20And the idea that a successful democratic experiment could lead to more democratic remands
21:26in countries like Jordan, like Iraq, like...
21:29Afghanistan.
21:30Afghanistan.
21:31Oh, my God.
21:32Yeah.
21:33Oh, my God.
21:34OK.
21:35Well, you see a speechless here.
21:37That's all that we have time for.
21:39We're going to take a short break.
21:41And when we come back, a lasting peace.
21:44That's also the objective of the people of Ukraine.
21:47Is it coming?
21:48And at what price?
21:50Stay with us.
22:00Welcome back to Brussels, my love.
22:02Our guests are still Sarah Wheaton, Petras Ostrovitsius, and Richard Lewis.
22:08This week marked the 11th anniversary of the day Vladimir Putin illegally annexed Crimea,
22:14a military operation that would directly lead to the full-scale invasion of Ukraine eight
22:19years later.
22:21That same Vladimir Putin spoke to Donald Trump on Tuesday in an apparent effort to end the
22:26fighting in Ukraine on his terms.
22:29Carving up Ukraine among Trump and Putin smacks of the famous Yalta Conference, where the
22:34presumptive victors of World War II divided Europe into spheres of influence.
22:39The difference?
22:41Back in 1945, there was a European at the table, Winston Churchill.
22:46So should Europe today just suck it up and move on, or is there still a European role
22:53to play, Richard?
22:54Well, I think there's definitely a European role to play.
22:56What that role is remains to be seen.
22:58I think the Europeans were taken by complete surprise by the American attitude.
23:05And so it took some time to get their act together, but they're beginning to do that
23:09now.
23:12The problem is, well, there are a number of problems with Ukraine, but one of the major
23:16problems is what is Donald Trump cooking up with Vladimir Putin?
23:21Right.
23:22Well, that's the crucial question, because if you don't know that and nobody knows it
23:26except perhaps those two, or maybe even those two don't know it, then you don't know how
23:33to act.
23:34Right.
23:35So we had this phone call this week.
23:37Nothing sizable came out of it immediately.
23:41Sarah, Putin, is he playing in the same league as Trump?
23:50I would hazard that Putin is playing in an even more professional league than Trump.
23:56I mean, it's a bit hard to tell.
23:58On the one hand, some people say Putin seems to be dithering a bit.
24:04Trump is pushing for a speedy resolution.
24:07On the other hand, it's been a kind of a classic Soviet approach to drag out negotiations.
24:14We've seen Putin make an almost meaningless concession of offering to not bomb Ukrainian
24:19power plants for 30 days.
24:22So it does seem like he is potentially embarrassing Trump, which could be a problem for him.
24:28Well, Trump is, we know him, he's a transactional player here.
24:34What is he thinking to gain from basically abandoning Ukraine and moving closer to Russia?
24:43Well, judging from recent developments, I would probably point out as Trump's interest,
24:51I mean, to negotiate at the expense of Ukraine.
24:54I mean, he has no time, unlike Putin.
24:59Putin controls time.
25:00I mean, he's not in a hurry.
25:03He doesn't sell anything out of his pocket.
25:07President Trump administration, as he promised to fix the situation in 24 hours, failed.
25:12First 100 days doesn't look very promising up to now.
25:17So he might fix some things, but I don't believe it will be based on really lasting and just
25:25peace.
25:26Would that be only playing to his base when he is able to say, OK, I solve this within
25:30100 days or so?
25:32Looking at the reaction from Kyiv and especially President Zelensky, I mean, he always surprised,
25:39I mean, what comes out from Washington, D.C.
25:42He's not probably consulted.
25:44He's not given a good argument, I mean, during negotiations.
25:51So I'm very cautious, I mean, looking at any possible results out of this.
25:57Right.
25:58Richard, is that right that Putin has a lot of time?
26:02Is he under no pressure at all?
26:03I mean, not everything went well for him, right?
26:06He thought that initially, you know, the war would be over within a week, and that did
26:12not happen.
26:13So what's your take?
26:14Well, I think the Russian losses have been enormous, far bigger than could possibly have
26:18been imagined.
26:20And the Russian economy, in spite of the sort of some positive elements to it, like the
26:25sanctions have not worked, for example, especially on oil and gas.
26:29But the Russian economy, with 20 percent inflation, and it can't last forever.
26:36And I think, I don't agree that Putin has a long time.
26:40I think he has to take action at some point.
26:43I mean, what his aims are quite clear.
26:45He wants Putin as a client state, like Belarus, and no NATO, no EU, of course.
26:54That's quite clear.
26:55And he's going to hold on until he gets at least most of that.
27:00Right.
27:01We've asked the Irish political scientist, Adonica O'Bacon, about Putin's incentive to
27:06go along with Trump, and about Trump's desire to bring Putin back into the fold.
27:11Here's what he had to say.
27:12Take a listen.
27:14The Americans are not applying the same level of leverage on Russia.
27:18So Russia has much less incentive now to negotiate, and that's why we've seen the Ukrainians sign
27:22up for a 30-day unconditional ceasefire.
27:24Whereas Vladimir Putin has essentially said no to that.
27:27He said yes in principle, but the amount of qualifications and conditions are so long
27:30that it's effectively a no.
27:32So he's going to be much more difficult to bring to the table.
27:35They haven't conceded one single thing as part of this kind of Trump peace process so
27:40far.
27:41Ukraine is in a very unenviable position right now because the Russians want their territory
27:46and the Americans want their resources, as we've seen with this minerals deal.
27:51And the Europeans as yet are not strong enough, it seems, to fill the vacuum left by an American
27:56disengagement.
27:57Sarah, do you agree with this assessment, especially the last sentence that Europeans
28:00are too weak to fill any void here?
28:04Yeah.
28:05I mean, the reality is that Europeans have relied on the post-war kind of peace dividend.
28:13And Ursula von der Leyen this week actually said there's been a complacency that has set
28:18in since the Iron Curtain came down.
28:21And so we are seeing this push for essentially joint borrowing to ramp up defense.
28:28But that remains controversial, and it's unclear how quickly you can actually build a defense
28:34industrial complex.
28:36Brussels is aiming for this to happen by 2030, but a lot of violence can happen between now
28:42and then.
28:43I think you were vigorously nodding during the video, so you agree with him, right?
28:51Russia, they've been able to control, to impose more kind of persecution to opponents.
28:57I mean, opposition is simply gone.
29:00But did we do everything, Camilla, to prepare ourselves?
29:03Who would negotiate from the EU side if Europe is to be invited to the negotiations table?
29:09We didn't establish.
29:10Will it be somebody, again, from capitals, big capitals of Europe?
29:14Or will it be Kayakalas, probably, a chief negotiator for Ukraine's peace deal or whatever?
29:22So I don't think, I mean, we are really pushing forward with Europe's role at negotiations
29:28table enough.
29:29All right.
29:30On that point, we can close this conversation.
29:32Thank you so much to our guests.
29:34And thank you for watching.
29:37See you soon here on Euronews.
29:40Hello and welcome to Brussels, my love.
29:49My guests are Petras Austrivitzius, Richard Lewis, and Sarah Wheaton.
29:54Just two years after Qatargate rocked Europe, new allegations of bribery, this time linked
30:00to Huawei, have once again sent shockwaves through the Brussels institutions.
30:06And investigators are probing, and I quote, active corruption within the European Parliament.
30:12Police raided more than 20 addresses in Belgium and Portugal, and several people were arrested.
30:18The whole case breathes new life into longstanding concerns over shady lobbying practices in
30:24Brussels.
30:25Is pay to play made too easy in the EU institutions?
30:31And what about those ethics lessons learned from the Qatargate scandal, Sarah?
30:36Yeah, I think we're seeing it.
30:37It is pretty easy.
30:38The reality, I would contest slightly your intro in that the scandal didn't necessarily
30:44send shockwaves.
30:45A lot of the people and the company at the center of it had been scrutiny, under scrutiny
30:50for quite a long time.
30:52So if anything, people were surprised that police actually did something about it.
30:58But isn't that worse, Petras, if Huawei says, well, we don't give a, you know?
31:06You know, Stefan, it's really big.
31:08Well, we are to build a digital economy.
31:11And those giants, I mean, around, I mean, having something to propose and to investments,
31:18products, of course, we are very much interested.
31:20You know, I've been a bit surprised, I mean, seeing so many seminars and discussions, sponsored
31:27by Huawei in recent two, three years.
31:31I've been, you know, as nothing happened, as was no call, you know, to refrain from
31:38accepting Chinese products because of the confidentiality, I mean, some secrecy, probably
31:47a kind of espionage, and so on and so forth.
31:51And everything went so smoothly, I mean, for two long periods of time.
31:56And I wouldn't say that I've been predicting, I mean, something to come like this.
32:01But I was not surprised that Huawei is spotted now, I mean, in this very shady, shady spot.
32:10So they had a great interest, big money, and probably a lot of willingness from, this time
32:17from APOS.
32:18You see, I mean, a lot, not necessarily only members, but APOS.
32:22Yeah.
32:23Accredited.
32:24Accredited assistance.
32:25Accredited assistance.
32:26Exactly.
32:27Richard, were you shocked or not so much?
32:30At my age, I'm unshocked.
32:34No, not shocked.
32:37Disappointed, I think, is the word I would use.
32:39I mean, it is always, when these things happen, and the European Parliament is not the only
32:43legislature which has been this kind of situation.
32:48My own native country, it's happened as well in not too distant past.
32:53So the question is, how can you stop it happening?
32:56That is a, I mean, you can't stop it completely.
32:59You will never do that.
33:01But how can you discourage it?
33:03Right.
33:04I mean, we're talking about, just to, you know, to throw in some facts here, the incidents
33:10that are being investigated include restaurant bills, travel expenses, and regular invitations
33:17to football matches.
33:18If somebody offered me a football match, I would say yes immediately, right?
33:24So what is it?
33:25We know, of course, Huawei has a huge interest here, a lot of stuff is at stake, and yet
33:35some people fell for the football tickets.
33:37Yeah.
33:38I mean, look, the reality is that there is a culture where it is okay to offer MEPs and
33:46their assistants, and I do think it's only just the assistants for now.
33:51And after the Qatargate bribery scandal, many steps were taken to encourage more disclosure,
33:58asking MEPs and their assistants to say who they were meeting with, to disclose more gifts.
34:03But there's still limits, like, is this really worth the 150 euros that I have to disclose,
34:07or is it probably maybe more worth 100 euro?
34:10I don't need to mention it.
34:13The reality is the parliament does have actually some pretty decent rules to enforce ethics
34:18guidelines, but they choose not to enforce them.
34:23That's a good transition to our next quote here.
34:28We spoke to Alberto Alemano, professor in EU law at HEC Paris, about the political environment
34:34where such pay-for-play schemes apparently thrive.
34:38Here's what he told us, take a listen.
34:41There's a culture of impunity that has been brewing over time, but this is the responsibility
34:46of political parties, it's not the responsibility of the institution.
34:51The institution is just the very last resort for stepping in and sanctioning behavior that
34:57the political party should have, first of all, prevented from happening by selecting
35:02different kinds of candidates to the European Parliament, by monitoring the members of parliament
35:07behavior, and by denouncing themselves and sanctioning those behaviors.
35:11But since the political parties are not doing their job, then we all look at the European
35:16Parliament itself as an institution, and the European Union as the gatekeeper for the ethical
35:21conduct of their members.
35:23I'm not sure I entirely subscribe to that point of view, that it's only the political
35:27parties and not the institution, but what's your take?
35:30It's a much larger picture, I fully agree.
35:34Just recently there was a survey, an analytical report that 17 member states of European Union
35:41are simply relaxed, taking seriously Huawei efforts to stay on EU markets, to sell products
35:50and so on.
35:51And we're speaking about big money, all right?
35:53So if we are on the national level, on member states level, tolerating this, of course it
35:59goes, I mean, probably through the political parties, I mean, to individual representatives
36:03in the European Parliament.
36:06Why not to meet?
36:07Why not to go to the football match?
36:08Why not to have a, you know, lavish dinner, I mean, at the invitation of the company?
36:16So I think this is a much bigger picture, I mean, but member states are as well, I mean,
36:23part of this game.
36:25You know, Huawei is not just a simple company, so we know what we're speaking about.
36:32It's something which we had to probably prevent a long time ago.
36:37So bad guys only in the political parties?
36:40No.
36:41I think it's a question of the culture of the institution as well, I mean, you know,
36:45I think you have to instill into the members and their assistants that this is just not
36:52acceptable behavior.
36:53I mean, I used to work for the European Commission and there were very strict rules about what
36:58you could accept and what you couldn't accept, and it was practically nothing, in fact.
37:03And if these things are enforced, then...
37:06That's a good conclusion.
37:08We've reached the end of Brussels, my love.
37:09Thank you to our panel and to our viewers at home.
37:12If you want to continue the conversation on any topic, write to brusselsmylove at euronews.com
37:18or contact us on social media.
37:21That's it for today.
37:22I'm Stefan Grobe.
37:24Have an excellent week.
37:25Take care and see you soon.