In this edition, we shed light on Italy's Albanian model for processing asylum seekers, and hear how the victory plan of Ukraine's President Zelenskyy went down in Brussels.
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00:00Hello and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly European politics programme with me,
00:19Maeve McMahon. Great to have you with us. Coming up on the show, in a bid to address
00:24irregular migration, the EU is contemplating setting up return hubs, offshore centres for
00:31sending unsuccessful asylum seekers and processing claims. Known as the Albanian model, after
00:37the Italian government adopted the approach with its neighbour, we ask if the idea is
00:41illicit or merely pragmatic. And, almost 1,000 days after the Russian invasion, the Ukrainian
00:49president presented his much-anticipated victory plan to EU heads of state and government in
00:54Brussels. From a quick invite into NATO, to the green light for firing Western missiles
01:00at military targets inside Russia, we discuss whether Volodymyr Zelensky's idea was a hit
01:06or a flop. Welcome to our panel this weekend, Lisa Bezvrushenko from the civil society organisation
01:12Promote Ukraine, Helena Hahn, migration analyst with the European Policy Centre, and Vasilis
01:19Sousas, senior manager for Europe at the German Marshall Fund. Welcome. Thank you.
01:24Just before we get your views though, let's just hear what exactly dominated the European
01:28Parliament's plenary session in Strasbourg this week.
01:36Another Strasbourg session, another heated debate about EU migration policy. MEPs discussed
01:41a plan to build return hubs in non-EU countries, a copy and paste of Italy's asylum policy.
01:50The plan came about at this mini-summit. Eleven leaders from countries including Italy, Hungary,
01:56Denmark and Poland sat down with the Commission President. Ursula von der Leyen then asked
02:01all EU capitals to think about setting up migrant centres outside EU borders, citing
02:06Italian action in Albania as the model to follow. But Rome faces legal stumbling blocks.
02:14A judge already ordered the return of a group of migrants to Italy from Albania. NGOs also
02:22warned these centres are incompatible with international law. Has this brought the debate
02:26back to where it started?
02:34So let's start with Helene Hahn, who's been monitoring migration policy for years. Are
02:38we back to where we started a couple of years ago when they started discussing the migration
02:42pact? And what is your take on these return hubs?
02:45I would say at the moment, we're not really back where we were in 2020 when the new pact
02:50on migration asylum was proposed. Rather, what we're seeing now is that ideas that originated
02:56primarily on the far right and with conservatives have gained ground, are finding more political
03:04support, such that there is now a majority of member states that are not only meant to
03:09focus on the implementation of the recently adopted reforms on migration asylum, but are
03:14looking more and more for solutions and approaches and responses above and beyond that. And I
03:20think this is quite a remarkable change that we've seen. Also, considering that von der
03:26Leyen herself was initially just a couple of months ago against or rather hesitant to
03:31sort of jump on board and has now espoused some of these ideas that are being put forward.
03:36Well, indeed, I remember a couple of years ago when these ideas were even contemplated,
03:40it was a major taboo. And now we're seeing these ideas seriously on the table.
03:43Yeah, no, I think one thing that has to be said is the Overton window, what is permissible,
03:51what is acceptable, what is expected to say, to do, to propose regarding migration has
03:59really shifted over the past couple of years. And I think it's a political reality. Everyone
04:04has to recognise that has shifted decidedly to the right. And I think there are real concerns
04:09that need to be factored in. But what the EU, what EU leaders are choosing to do now is a choice.
04:15And I think we often forget about that. Lisa, from your perspective, how have you
04:19been viewing these discussions? What I'm afraid of is that migration is
04:23getting weaponised. And this is something that I'm really scared of, especially from the countries
04:29like Russia and Belarus, what we see at the Polish border now. And I think in the EU, we
04:35should always have a human approach to such issues as migration and to view all the EU migration
04:46policies through human rights lens. And in the Ukrainian case, there was a very successful case
04:54with a temporary protection directive, which was not only a very good migration strategy towards
05:00war refugees from Ukraine, but also it was a sign that EU member states can come together
05:06and in unity adopt a policy that was very successful. I think if I can just add to this,
05:14I think what we're now seeing is a very big gap between questions of long-term integration of
05:21socio-economic inclusion and all of the ideas that are being discussed amongst member states.
05:28As we saw at the European Council meeting last week, there's a growing gap between the two.
05:34And I would also say that, to pick up on the point that was made, I think we also need to differentiate
05:40between what could be considered cases of instrumentalization, where it's clear that the EU
05:45needs some form of response. But what can't happen or what I think should not happen is that we
05:50continue on a path where member states decide unilaterally to, for instance, suspend access
05:57to asylum or to limit the border crossing points, etc. This is, of course, why the idea came up to
06:02have a proper migration asylum pact, so that the 27 would work as 27 and not see each country do
06:08its own thing. But there was a very heated debate in Strasbourg this week on this topic, a debate
06:14we've seen many times before. But this week, the focus was on these return hubs. And to hear how
06:20some MEPs felt about this idea, our reporter Aidas Sanchez caught up with the Spanish MEP Jorge
06:25Bouchard and the German MEP Lena Dupont. This is the perfect mechanism. Because once inside
06:32European territory, it is very difficult to expel them. Because unfortunately, we have the entire
06:36left and the NGOs clamouring for their human rights. Well, let's manage immigration over there.
06:41Everything starts in third countries. So if we want to make sure that return procedures are
06:47conducted in a fair and an efficient way, that we take care of those people who are actually within
06:52the process, then return hubs in third countries can be a very effective, but also, of course, a
06:57very important tool for the European Union in order to step up returns as part of the asylum
07:02and migration policy. So MEPs there from the centre and the far right on the same page saying
07:07that these centres could be an important tool. It feels like we're adopting a kind of out of sight,
07:12out of mind approach now, Helena, in Europe. I think there as well, we're talking about a very
07:18complicated system that has not benefited from reform in a long time. However, at the moment,
07:24the focus is very much on the responsibilities that would be taken up by non-EU countries.
07:31And what I'm missing is an answer on who would these countries be beyond the Netherlands
07:37approaching Uganda, UK, Rwanda, Italy, Albania. All of these countries have signalled that this
07:42is a one off decision or it has not been possible to actually implement that. And so I see a lot of
07:48political noise around this, but no real answers as to who would be willing to have centres for
07:55that purpose, return transit hubs be set up. I fully agree. I think frustration over migration,
08:04over the fact that, and it is a fact that EU member states have had a chronic inability to
08:11return asylum seekers whose applications have been rejected back to the countries of origins
08:17for a whole host of issues. And I think frustration with that, frustration with the
08:21moment that Europe, Europeans feel that they need more security. It's a moment of fragility
08:27has led many governments to think of tougher, stricter measures as the way of achieving better
08:31outcomes. But Helena is right in that this idea as part of the innovative ideas that are now being
08:39discussed would be unthinkable just a few short years ago, would be unimaginable to propose.
08:45And also the logic that underpins it, it's as if countries don't want to have the responsibility
08:52for what happens in this very key political topic of migration. Let other countries, let the problem
08:57be handled outside the EU. And I think that's a very misguided, very myopic approach to the topic.
09:04It's interesting because I'm also asking myself every day, do we have a migration crisis even?
09:09Because you've seen the figures have dropped so much in the last couple of years, but there is a
09:12perception that there is one. Because if you speak to people, even people from migrant communities
09:16here in Brussels, they argue that there's people coming towards us. It's not being dealt with.
09:21We're full. Our country is full. The biggest two problems of the EU is a labour shortage and
09:27migration. So this is a bit ironic. But I think when we come, when we speak about return and I'm
09:33speaking, I'm thinking about Ukrainian case before returning people, there should be conditions where
09:38people will go. So, for example, I would rather focus. Well, migration is a very natural issue,
09:46and it has been a problem in the EU for quite a while. But I'm more leaning towards development
09:54and peacebuilding in those countries from where these migrants are coming from. And only when
09:58there will be conditions for these people to return. And that should be another focus of
10:04of EU policy as well.
10:06Well, it certainly is not the focus. I mean, if we look at that summit that took place just last
10:11week, there was a little mini summit that took place ahead with 11 heads of state and government
10:17in the room in the middle of the table, driving the tone of that meeting was the Italian Prime
10:21Minister, Giorgia Maloney. Is she now facilitates leading the policies of the future of the European
10:27Council?
10:28It was important to see who sat around the table. And it was equally important to see who didn't
10:33sit around the table. So if this is a new modus operandi facilitated by the Commission President,
10:39we'll have to wait and see. But certainly, what we saw in that picture is a sign of the times.
10:45It's where the center of political gravity on migration, and we'll see whether it expands to
10:52other topics. But on migration, that's where the center of gravity is. And that is firmly to the
10:56right of center. Some might say too close to the far right. The only thing I will say is that if
11:02you look at the faces, not necessarily in that photo, but in general, it confirms what Helena
11:08said earlier, you'll see that it wasn't the far right positions that moved closer to the mainstream,
11:13but rather the other way around the mainstream has moved decidedly closer to the far right to
11:19extremist positions.
11:20Indeed, the kind of mantra now of the European People's Party, the center right party is that
11:24returns are not fast enough. Only one in five people who do not have the right to be here are
11:28being returned. But you mentioned who was in that room and who was not. Of course,
11:32Charles Michel, the EU Council President was not in the room. And Emmanuel Macron,
11:36the French President was not in the room. He then expressed how he felt about these return hubs. He
11:43said he's in favor of discussions to make returns to country of origin more effective. But he's
11:48skeptical, he said about these discussions with third countries that would agree to keep people
11:53that we don't want to accept. And Helena, that's something you mentioned. Can we trust in these
11:58other countries? And we've seen as well the deal done with Tunisia. We saw the ombudsman come out
12:03this week, criticized how that was done by the European Commission. They weren't perhaps as
12:06transparent as they should have been. But it seems that that seems to be the modus operandi.
12:12Yeah, I think there's there's well, this is important to differentiate. There are return
12:17and readmission agreements, which specifically focus on such provisions. But then there,
12:22of course, also been broader agreements that have been struck with the likes of Tunisia,
12:26Egypt, Mauritania, as well as Lebanon, though, there, the context, I would say,
12:30is a little bit different. And certainly so now, in for for North African countries,
12:35the context has very much been we need stronger relationships. There's a lot that connects us.
12:40But there are also geopolitical considerations. And migration is one of several other
12:47considerations, in particular, macro financial assistance. However, what I think we can expect
12:52is that not only will there be discussions, really from the get go from day one, when the
12:58new commission takes office on performing the return directive, which is more of a procedural
13:04undertaking, as well as really continuing conversations with countries of origin,
13:09not just in the immediate neighborhood, but possibly also beyond that. But that will also
13:14require member states to align their policies, because we know that at the moment, it's a
13:20patchwork with readmission agreements at EU level, and then member states having their own
13:25at a bilateral level as well. And I think you're giving us a taste of just how complex
13:29migration asylum policy is, of course, we do have the pact that was agree on,
13:33agreed on it will come in to force in 2026. And but just on those policies of Georgia Maloney,
13:39we wanted to catch up with Italians to hear how they felt about them. So we asked our
13:44Rome correspondent, Georgia Orlandi, to put their microphones to them.
13:51I understand the importance of security, and I'm sure there are also human traffickers among them.
13:55However, focusing only on a security approach is misguided. While it's necessary, it shouldn't be
14:00the only focus. It's equally important to address the structural issues in countries whose resources
14:05have been exploited for years.
14:06Knowing Maloney's history and the history of her right wing party, I don't approve her policies.
14:15I'm not sure what the alternative could be. But certainly the current system isn't working.
14:24All the money spent building these hubs in Albania could have been used to set up similar
14:27centers in Italy. I don't see why it had to be in Albania. I don't think this approach is solving
14:32the migration issue. So a flavor there of reactions from Rome, but most agreeing that
14:38the current system doesn't work. Unfortunately, and I think the EU was struggling to help those
14:47first entry countries that are at the border to help them to manage these migrants. And
14:56especially, yes, there was a lot of finance going to those countries. But it's not only about money,
15:03it's also about, well, it's about everything. It's about building infrastructure. It's about
15:08talking to your own people. It's about framing a common migration message that you can communicate
15:14to EU citizens. But how deeply divided are we as an EU on this? I mean, you've seen editorials
15:20as well written about the EU could divide and break up. I mean, that's a little bit dramatic.
15:25I think it is dramatic. But at the same time, we have a pact that was adopted earlier this year,
15:31and we see member states already doubting that it will be effective when it becomes operational in
15:382026. We also see member states, specific member states saying it's not enough. And that was meant
15:45to be at the apex of European efforts. You know, the final piece that was missing to make sure that
15:51Europe united focuses and deals with this fundamental issue. I think there's political
15:58expediency there that we need to factor in as well. For many of these politicians, you know,
16:03the politics of migration can boost their electoral fortunes, their political fortunes.
16:09And going back to a point that I made at the very beginning, there are real concerns,
16:13societal concerns. We heard from some people that the system as is isn't working. And then there are
16:20political choices that are made. And some politicians, an increasing amount of politicians
16:25are mixing the two. They think that what we're proposing now, it's the only natural solution
16:31to these real concerns, forgetting about the risk, forgetting about the threats of which there are
16:35many. And indeed, when you say this is a an issue for people we've seen in Germany, Helena, your
16:41home country, this is number one issue when people are asked what is their priority? What is their
16:45biggest concern? We've also seen the German government introduce checks on the borders,
16:49which is a big deal for a country with so many borders. So what is the mood in Germany?
16:54Well, I think this is kind of the result of a long period of time where government as well
17:02as the population has felt like not enough is being done, not just in relation to regular migration,
17:08but importantly, more on the integration and inclusion side of things. I mean, what we've
17:13heard from countries like Germany and Austria saying our reception capacity is saturated.
17:18We don't necessarily have space to take in more people and have therefore tried to push for more
17:24restrictive measures and more measures countering irregular migration. But I think it's important
17:29to remember that there too, there are political choices to be made. And one of the things that
17:36always strikes me is that COVID, for instance, in my view, provided an opportunity to rethink
17:41how reception systems could be built so that there's more flexibility, for instance, to say,
17:47sometimes there will be more arrivals, sometimes there will be fewer arrivals. And what we're
17:51seeing now is a couple of years later is that in fact, few adjustments have been made. And so I
17:57think this is kind of a result of this. And border checks, as we know from the situation in 2015-16,
18:04has often been kind of an easy response to what is otherwise a much bigger political issue.
18:10Indeed. And just going back to the return hubs, we've seen a lot of NGOs say this week that it
18:16could be a return to prison-like situations, many fearing that here in Europe we're getting
18:21closer to the Australian model, which of course is known as being very, very harsh. And we wanted
18:25to ask an EU law professor for his take on this. So we had a chat with Francesco Gatta in Ljubljana.
18:31I think the Australian model is rather different. That's a matter of geography. First of all,
18:37Australia has been exploring asylum seekers in these very little islands, Manus and Nauru,
18:45which are literally very remote island. Journalists, media, NGOs, activists are not
18:51allowed there. We don't even know what happened there. In Europe, we are, again, with a founding
18:57member state of the EU. There must be control on these centres from politics, public opinion,
19:07NGOs, judges, of course, and lawyers. So here, fortunately, we have a way to control
19:12better their compatibility with EU law. So Professor Francesco Gatta there,
19:18speaking to me from the University of Levant-le-Neuf. So these centres, he's saying,
19:23in Albania would be very much run by Italian police. They'd have to respect Italian law
19:27and EU law. But still, we won't know what's really going on there, Lisa.
19:32Well, yeah, we don't know what's going on. And from what we've seen in the media,
19:37that it wasn't a very successful case so far, and people had to be returned back to Italy.
19:45Well, my always concern is that there is a lot of blind spots where the human rights are
19:56endangered, and there is a lot of space for human trafficking. And it's just not safe.
20:04And I wish there was a better consideration of those migrants.
20:10I think it's a case of, if I don't see a problem, then it doesn't exist. If only it was a matter of
20:17geography where these applications are handled. Just because European states have been unable
20:24to process fast enough, respecting human rights, the standards, the EU ethos, if you want,
20:30if we move the exercise of going through that process outside the EU, it's not going to solve
20:37the problem, you know. So just to conclude with Helena Hahn,
20:40a scandal or a solution to these return hubs? I think a good description is political noise.
20:48We know that there have been assessments that looked into the feasibility of such models.
20:54We also know that the European Commission itself said and identified several issues with this.
21:01That said, I think that some member states, whether for political reasons, because elections
21:06are coming up or otherwise, will still continue to pursue this. But I think it's only a question
21:12of time before we realise that actually there are quite a few obstacles hindering the implementation
21:17of such arrangements. Only a question of time. And one thing is sure, we will certainly be seeing
21:22much more debates about this topic in the European Parliament in Strasbourg and also at that upcoming
21:27EU summit in December. But for now, this conversation can come to an end. Stay with
21:32us here, though, on Euronews, because after the break, we'll be hearing how the Ukrainian
21:36President Zelensky's victory plan was received here in Brussels. See you soon.
21:50Welcome back to Brussels, my love. I'm Maeve McMahon and along with Vasilis Doussas,
21:56Lisa Beshvershenko and Helena Hahn, we're taking a look back at the news of late.
22:01And one we wanted to touch on was this, Ukraine's president in Brussels last week,
22:06warning EU and NATO leaders that thousands of North Koreans were being trained to fight against
22:11Ukraine. He presented his victory plan and promised it would strengthen Ukraine and beyond and could
22:17even end the war sooner rather than later. We can take a listen now to Volodymyr Zelensky.
22:23Putin should respect our strengths, not have the free world tremble at his threats. And we
22:30can and we can use the deterrence package only if Russia does not stop the war. The victory plan
22:39is a bridge to a successful second peace summit. You can help make this a reality.
22:47So, Lisa, how do Ukrainians feel about this plan? And how is your morale now as we go into another
22:52harsh winter? Well, every winter it's very difficult. And I think this peace plan comes
22:58during the time where there was a lot of silence and the silence gave space for alternative
23:04solutions of this war. And I think this peace plan is exactly reminding that Ukraine is not
23:11going back and is not giving up any territories. Maybe that was a bit of frustration that
23:19Volodymyr Zelensky didn't put any like softer points. On that plan, it very much says it wants
23:27a call to be invited into NATO as soon as possible. A green light to shoot long range
23:32strikes with Western weapons deep into Russia and also a refusal, as you say, to trade Ukraine's
23:37territory or sovereignty. How is it received for us here in Brussels? I mean, clearly,
23:41the Ukrainians, Ukrainian President Zelensky, you know, wanted something more, more substantive.
23:48I think the if we are to be honest, on a declaratory level, we had positive signals,
23:54some outliers like Lithuania accepting the plan, fully supporting the plan.
23:58But overall, the reaction was muted on the substantive level. But I still want to make
24:03the point that what Zelensky tried to do wasn't just to crystallize the asks of Ukraine in this
24:12particular moment to say one, two, three, four, five, six. But it was also a way, a plan, a plea,
24:19if you want to say this is the way to beat the fatigue that I see settling in in the international
24:25community. You know, essentially, how I saw the plan is him saying, look, help me now help Ukraine
24:32now. And if you do that decisively now, then this may well pave the way for an end of the war
24:42next year by the end of next year. I think not just a matter of beating the fatigue, as you said,
24:47but it's also in light of the upcoming U.S. elections. It's also with an eye to Germany.
24:53And so I very much see this as kind of, you know, not necessarily a final step,
24:58but really a decisive moment, because otherwise it may be too late.
25:01Well, indeed, you mentioned the elephant in the room, and that is the U.S. elections. And we saw
25:05the U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in Kiev this week announcing $400 million worth of new
25:11arms for Ukraine. And of course, showing his solidarity ahead of those elections, because we
25:15were concerned, obviously, to hear whether or not they could impact the efforts to end the war. So
25:21we spoke to Stephen Efritz. He's the director of the EU Institute for Security Studies.
25:26A victorious, successful, democratic Ukraine is within reach and remains within reach,
25:33and I would say remains even in Europe, even if Donald Trump were to win the U.S. elections
25:39and embark on a very different course than Biden has thus far. And we cannot afford this
25:45paralysis that we have seen sort of creep into European conversations around Ukraine. It feels a
25:50little bit different today, in 24, than it felt in 22, when we were breaking taboos and taking very
25:56ambitious steps. We need to recapture some of the spirit of 2022. Stephen Efritz there,
26:02reiterating kind of what we're hearing as well around the panel, trying to get back to that
26:06momentum. It does seem, Lisa, that we're paralyzed, even though we see these reports of 11,000
26:12North Korean troops ready to fight your people. Yeah, I think, I don't know what else should
26:17happen for the Western Europe and the U.S. to wake up fully and to see that they are directly
26:23engaged in this war. And I think there is a lack of understanding what the victory of Ukraine is,
26:30because it actually means defeat of Russia. And some countries don't want Russia to defeat,
26:34and they are scared what will be the future of Russia. But we will always be in this limbo
26:39before we arm Ukraine appropriately. And we know what it means to end the war. And there is
26:47steps after the end of the war to ensure security of Ukraine, which will also then
26:52lead to the security of Eastern European region. Well, you mentioned Russia. We saw, Vasilis,
26:57this week the BRICS meeting, Vladimir Putin hosting his counterparts from India, China, Iran,
27:04South Africa. Was there fear around this time about the outcome of that meeting?
27:09Look, for Russia, what's happening in Ukraine, not only in Ukraine, in the wider neighborhood,
27:13but primarily in Ukraine is existential. And it will use every diplomatic lever,
27:20every diplomatic gathering, any tool, any connection that it has to try and boost its
27:27own fortunes. And certainly, the BRICS summit was a big PR stunt for Putin, just to try and portray
27:35confidence, project that he's on the winning side. And when you combine that imagery with
27:41the intel reports about North Korean troops on the ground being trained to be deployed,
27:48when you know you have the U.S. election, where I will disagree with Stephen, I think it can have
27:53an existential impact on how the Ukraine dossier is handled by both sides of the Atlantic.
27:59And when you have other critical elections, like in Germany, as Helena said,
28:03that really underpin the skepticism that characterize the conduct, the approach of
28:10the current German government, then I think it works. It gives an imagery that Russia is on
28:16the winning side and we're not. And I would like to underline what Lisa said. This is not just about
28:23Ukraine's win. This is about Russia's defeat as well, because it's either or at this stage.
28:30If I may add, we have a lot of experience. And if there is someone who believes in
28:35freezing this conflict, for us, we know that from 2014 to 2022, it took Russia eight years
28:43to launch a full-scale invasion. If we freeze this war for another eight years now with the
28:47current capacities of Russia and trained army, it will need even less time to launch another
28:54invasion, another attack. And I'm afraid, together with occupied territories and occupied
29:04people that are under those territories, we know that Ukrainians are forced to train and fight
29:10on the side of Russia. I think Russian army is becoming stronger and stronger this time.
29:15And on that point, we can close this conversation. For more information,
29:19do check out our website, euronews.com, for more analysis. But for now, thank you so much
29:23to our panel for your insights and analysis. And thank you so much for watching. See you soon on
29:28Euronews.
29:37Hello there, and welcome to Brussels, my love. I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with my panel,
29:43Lisa Bezvrishenko, Helena Hahn, and Vasilis Doussas, we're just sifting through the big
29:49stories of the week. And one that you might have seen already reported here on Euronews
29:53was this, a referendum on EU membership in Europe's poorest country, Moldova, sandwiched
29:59between Romania and Ukraine. Locals said yes to Brussels, but only just, just over 50% were in
30:07favour, and 49.54% against presidential elections also took place. But due to no clear outcome,
30:15a second round is scheduled for November 3rd. For more, we can take a listen now to the incumbent
30:20president, Maya Sandu.
30:29I voted specifically because Moldovans must determine their fate,
30:33not others, not dirty money, not lies, but the will of the people.
30:37I voted so that Moldova can develop. I will make universal efforts so that Moldova can build the
30:49future it wants. Everyone's vote is important. It's not just a stamp on paper. It's your say
30:56for your fate.
30:57It's pretty interesting, Helena, what's going on right now in Moldova. Were you watching it?
31:01Yeah, and I mean, I think as for the referendum, it's really just by this very tight margin. I
31:09think there's, it says a lot. It says a lot about the broader political environment that we're in.
31:16And I think it also, unfortunately, sends a sign to the EU that while it started accession talks,
31:24just not too long ago, that there really is a risk of foreign interference, of increasing and ongoing
31:33influence by Russia. And as for the election, I think it's a sign to the EU that there's a risk
31:41of increasing and ongoing influence by Russia. And as for the elections itself, I think there
31:47we'll have to keep an eye on who will essentially then fall behind Maya Sandu's biggest political
31:55opponent and what the outcome will be.
31:58I think it's a bit of a reality check facilities for officials here in Brussels who are competing
32:03with the Kremlin there for influence.
32:05Not just in Brussels, I was in Moldova just two, three short weeks ago, nobody expected
32:12the outcome of the referendum to be as close as it was. And for a chunk of that election night,
32:18I have to say everyone worried that the no might come on top actually. So it was only in the final
32:24stint that we got the yes overcoming the no, which everyone expected, but the slimmest of margins,
32:30nobody did. I think there was a case of optimist bias. I think what we saw in the referendum is a
32:37clear outcome of two reasons. One was what you said, Russian interference operations attempts
32:46of unimaginable magnitude, scale, diversity, unprecedented formal Dover, but also very
32:54remarkable for international standards as well. But also I suspect what is often lost in these
33:00discussion is the fact that a good chunk of that much higher percentage of no also came from people
33:06who are, because he was like any other election, who protested against the incumbent, against the
33:12government as well.
33:14Yeah, another day in Europe where the Russian influence was underestimated. And it reminds
33:23me a lot of 2014 when we had the bigger revolution in Euromaidan. And before that, there was also
33:30this decision whether we go to the West, to Europe or to Russia. And we see how much it costs for
33:38Ukraine to beat for the European choice. And I hope that for our neighbors, Moldova and Georgia,
33:45that this fight for democracy and for European choice will not come at that price. And for this,
33:51we have as Europe, we have to support each other and we have to, first of all, beat Russian hybrid
33:58warfare.
33:59You mentioned Georgia, of course, who are voting this weekend as well, which we're keeping a very
34:03close eye on here on Euronews. But just to mention the Moldovan diaspora, of course, is quite
34:07significant. The UN says 1.5 million Moldovans are living abroad and some are here in Brussels
34:14studying downtown. So we had the opportunity to ask them how they felt about these elections
34:18and these allegations of meddling from the Kremlin.
34:21I think this referendum is a unique and important step in the history of Moldova, as it shows
34:30Moldovans true aspirations to the EU, because even though Russia tried with different methods to
34:39fail this referendum, we showed how truly European we are at heart.
34:44We can change something. We can change something for good, because our parents and grandparents
34:50lived in a society that was under Russia. And it wasn't good at all. Everyone was sad. Everything
34:57was so, so bad. We didn't have the rights. They took everything from us. They changed the language,
35:05they changed the tradition. And now we have the opportunity to make a difference.
35:14So Valentina Topola there and Daniela Balutel describing their past and their hope for the
35:19future with cautious, nervous optimism. Yes. Just going back to your question about the EU,
35:25I think for once what's happening in Moldova is a case of the EU helping.
35:31I would like to underline that the EU has a mission in the country for the first time looks
35:36at hybrid threats. The EU announced just days before the referendum vote a massive growth plan
35:42for Moldova. These are valuable levers, tools that the EU has at its disposal, and it's showing
35:48political willingness to mobilise. The question is, is this enough in order to make justice to
35:55the hopes that we just heard? Because Russia, and I have to say this, left no stone unturned
36:00in terms of what it tried to do in the country to influence the vote. And of course, this is,
36:05even if doesn't succeed this time, there's always a parliamentary election in Moldova coming up
36:09next year, where it can use the same textbook, a playbook, and then it might succeed that time.
36:19Yeah, I think what's important here also to underline is that it is very much a question
36:25of what the young generation in Moldova expects. And here I also see parallels with Georgia,
36:30where there have been a lot of protest movements, years long efforts to try and
36:37kind of reinforce and assert this sort of pro-European stance vis-a-vis,
36:45again, not just Russian interference, but also within the country on democratic forces.
36:49We've seen those incredible pictures on our screens throughout the week. But that can conclude this
36:53conversation. Thank you so much, Lisa, Fasilis and Helena for being our panel this weekend.
36:59And thank you so much as well for tuning into us here on Euronews on Brussels, my love.
37:03Any comments for us on what you've heard here or any topics that you'd like us to dive into,
37:09reach out to brusselsmylove at euronews.com or reach out to us directly on social media.
37:15Take care and see you soon.