In this edition, we shed light on Italy's Albanian model for processing asylum seekers, and hear how the victory plan of Ukraine's President Zelenskyy went down in Brussels.
Category
đź—ž
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly European politics programme with me,
00:19Maeve McMahon. Great to have you with us. Coming up on the show, in a bid to address
00:24irregular migration, the EU is contemplating setting up return hubs, offshore centres for
00:31sending unsuccessful asylum seekers and processing claims. Known as the Albanian model, after
00:37the Italian government adopted the approach with its neighbour, we ask if the idea is
00:41illicit or merely pragmatic. And, almost 1,000 days after the Russian invasion, the Ukrainian
00:49president presented his much-anticipated victory plan to EU heads of state and government in
00:54Brussels. From a quick invite into NATO, to the green light for firing Western missiles
01:00at military targets inside Russia, we discuss whether Volodymyr Zelensky's idea was a hit
01:06or a flop. Welcome to our panel this weekend, Lisa Bezvrushenko from the civil society organisation
01:12Promote Ukraine, Helena Hahn, migration analyst with the European Policy Centre, and Vasilis
01:19Sousas, senior manager for Europe at the German Marshall Fund. Welcome. Thank you.
01:24Just before we get your views though, let's just hear what exactly dominated the European
01:28Parliament's plenary session in Strasbourg this week.
01:36Another Strasbourg session, another heated debate about EU migration policy. MEPs discussed
01:41a plan to build return hubs in non-EU countries, a copy and paste of Italy's asylum policy.
01:50The plan came about at this mini-summit. Eleven leaders from countries including Italy, Hungary,
01:56Denmark and Poland sat down with the Commission President. Ursula von der Leyen then asked
02:01all EU capitals to think about setting up migrant centres outside EU borders, citing
02:06Italian action in Albania as the model to follow. But Rome faces legal stumbling blocks.
02:14A judge already ordered the return of a group of migrants to Italy from Albania. NGOs also
02:22warned these centres are incompatible with international law. Has this brought the debate
02:26back to where it started?
02:34So let's start with Helene Hahn, who's been monitoring migration policy for years. Are
02:38we back to where we started a couple of years ago when they started discussing the migration
02:42pact? And what is your take on these return hubs?
02:45I would say at the moment, we're not really back where we were in 2020 when the new pact
02:50on migration asylum was proposed. Rather, what we're seeing now is that ideas that originated
02:56primarily on the far right and with conservatives have gained ground, are finding more political
03:04support, such that there is now a majority of member states that are not only meant to
03:09focus on the implementation of the recently adopted reforms on migration asylum, but are
03:14looking more and more for solutions and approaches and responses above and beyond that. And I
03:20think this is quite a remarkable change that we've seen. Also, considering that von der
03:26Leyen herself was initially just a couple of months ago against or rather hesitant to
03:31sort of jump on board and has now espoused some of these ideas that are being put forward.
03:36Well, indeed, I remember a couple of years ago when these ideas were even contemplated,
03:40it was a major taboo. And now we're seeing these ideas seriously on the table.
03:43Yeah, no, I think one thing that has to be said is the Overton window, what is permissible,
03:51what is acceptable, what is expected to say, to do, to propose regarding migration has
03:59really shifted over the past couple of years. And I think it's a political reality. Everyone
04:04has to recognise that has shifted decidedly to the right. And I think there are real concerns
04:09that need to be factored in. But what the EU, what EU leaders are choosing to do now is a choice.
04:15And I think we often forget about that. Lisa, from your perspective, how have you
04:19been viewing these discussions? What I'm afraid of is that migration is
04:23getting weaponised. And this is something that I'm really scared of, especially from the countries
04:29like Russia and Belarus, what we see at the Polish border now. And I think in the EU, we
04:35should always have a human approach to such issues as migration and to view all the EU migration
04:46policies through human rights lens. And in the Ukrainian case, there was a very successful case
04:54with a temporary protection directive, which was not only a very good migration strategy towards
05:00war refugees from Ukraine, but also it was a sign that EU member states can come together
05:06and in unity adopt a policy that was very successful. I think if I can just add to this,
05:14I think what we're now seeing is a very big gap between questions of long-term integration of
05:21socio-economic inclusion and all of the ideas that are being discussed amongst member states.
05:28As we saw at the European Council meeting last week, there's a growing gap between the two.
05:34And I would also say that, to pick up on the point that was made, I think we also need to differentiate
05:40between what could be considered cases of instrumentalization, where it's clear that the EU
05:45needs some form of response. But what can't happen or what I think should not happen is that we
05:50continue on a path where member states decide unilaterally to, for instance, suspend access
05:57to asylum or to limit the border crossing points, etc. This is, of course, why the idea came up to
06:02have a proper migration asylum pact, so that the 27 would work as 27 and not see each country do
06:08its own thing. But there was a very heated debate in Strasbourg this week on this topic, a debate
06:14we've seen many times before. But this week, the focus was on these return hubs. And to hear how
06:20some MEPs felt about this idea, our reporter Aidas Sanchez caught up with the Spanish MEP Jorge
06:25Bouchard and the German MEP Lena Dupont. This is the perfect mechanism. Because once inside
06:32European territory, it is very difficult to expel them. Because unfortunately, we have the entire
06:36left and the NGOs clamouring for their human rights. Well, let's manage immigration over there.
06:41Everything starts in third countries. So if we want to make sure that return procedures are
06:47conducted in a fair and an efficient way, that we take care of those people who are actually within
06:52the process, then return hubs in third countries can be a very effective, but also, of course, a
06:57very important tool for the European Union in order to step up returns as part of the asylum
07:02and migration policy. So MEPs there from the centre and the far right on the same page saying
07:07that these centres could be an important tool. It feels like we're adopting a kind of out of sight,
07:12out of mind approach now, Helena, in Europe. I think there as well, we're talking about a very
07:18complicated system that has not benefited from reform in a long time. However, at the moment,
07:24the focus is very much on the responsibilities that would be taken up by non-EU countries.
07:31And what I'm missing is an answer on who would these countries be beyond the Netherlands
07:37approaching Uganda, UK, Rwanda, Italy, Albania. All of these countries have signalled that this
07:42is a one off decision or it has not been possible to actually implement that. And so I see a lot of
07:48political noise around this, but no real answers as to who would be willing to have centres for
07:55that purpose, return transit hubs be set up. I fully agree. I think frustration over migration,
08:04over the fact that, and it is a fact that EU member states have had a chronic inability to
08:11return asylum seekers whose applications have been rejected back to the countries of origins
08:17for a whole host of issues. And I think frustration with that, frustration with the
08:21moment that Europe, Europeans feel that they need more security. It's a moment of fragility
08:27has led many governments to think of tougher, stricter measures as the way of achieving better
08:31outcomes. But Helena is right in that this idea as part of the innovative ideas that are now being
08:39discussed would be unthinkable just a few short years ago, would be unimaginable to propose.
08:45And also the logic that underpins it, it's as if countries don't want to have the responsibility
08:52for what happens in this very key political topic of migration. Let other countries, let the problem
08:57be handled outside the EU. And I think that's a very misguided, very myopic approach to the topic.
09:04It's interesting because I'm also asking myself every day, do we have a migration crisis even?
09:09Because you've seen the figures have dropped so much in the last couple of years, but there is a
09:12perception that there is one. Because if you speak to people, even people from migrant communities
09:16here in Brussels, they argue that there's people coming towards us. It's not being dealt with.
09:21We're full. Our country is full. The biggest two problems of the EU is a labour shortage and
09:27migration. So this is a bit ironic. But I think when we come, when we speak about return and I'm
09:33speaking, I'm thinking about Ukrainian case before returning people, there should be conditions where
09:38people will go. So, for example, I would rather focus. Well, migration is a very natural issue,
09:46and it has been a problem in the EU for quite a while. But I'm more leaning towards development
09:54and peacebuilding in those countries from where these migrants are coming from. And only when
09:58there will be conditions for these people to return. And that should be another focus of
10:04of EU policy as well.
10:06Well, it certainly is not the focus. I mean, if we look at that summit that took place just last
10:11week, there was a little mini summit that took place ahead with 11 heads of state and government
10:17in the room in the middle of the table, driving the tone of that meeting was the Italian Prime
10:21Minister, Giorgia Maloney. Is she now facilitates leading the policies of the future of the European
10:27Council?
10:28It was important to see who sat around the table. And it was equally important to see who didn't
10:33sit around the table. So if this is a new modus operandi facilitated by the Commission President,
10:39we'll have to wait and see. But certainly, what we saw in that picture is a sign of the times.
10:45It's where the center of political gravity on migration, and we'll see whether it expands to
10:52other topics. But on migration, that's where the center of gravity is. And that is firmly to the
10:56right of center. Some might say too close to the far right. The only thing I will say is that if
11:02you look at the faces, not necessarily in that photo, but in general, it confirms what Helena
11:08said earlier, you'll see that it wasn't the far right positions that moved closer to the mainstream,
11:13but rather the other way around the mainstream has moved decidedly closer to the far right to
11:19extremist positions.
11:20Indeed, the kind of mantra now of the European People's Party, the center right party is that
11:24returns are not fast enough. Only one in five people who do not have the right to be here are
11:28being returned. But you mentioned who was in that room and who was not. Of course,
11:32Charles Michel, the EU Council President was not in the room. And Emmanuel Macron,
11:36the French President was not in the room. He then expressed how he felt about these return hubs. He
11:43said he's in favor of discussions to make returns to country of origin more effective. But he's
11:48skeptical, he said about these discussions with third countries that would agree to keep people
11:53that we don't want to accept. And Helena, that's something you mentioned. Can we trust in these
11:58other countries? And we've seen as well the deal done with Tunisia. We saw the ombudsman come out
12:03this week, criticized how that was done by the European Commission. They weren't perhaps as
12:06transparent as they should have been. But it seems that that seems to be the modus operandi.
12:12Yeah, I think there's there's well, this is important to differentiate. There are return
12:17and readmission agreements, which specifically focus on such provisions. But then there,
12:22of course, also been broader agreements that have been struck with the likes of Tunisia,
12:26Egypt, Mauritania, as well as Lebanon, though, there, the context, I would say,
12:30is a little bit different. And certainly so now, in for for North African countries,
12:35the context has very much been we need stronger relationships. There's a lot that connects us.
12:40But there are also geopolitical considerations. And migration is one of several other
12:47considerations, in particular, macro financial assistance. However, what I think we can expect
12:52is that not only will there be discussions, really from the get go from day one, when the
12:58new commission takes office on performing the return directive, which is more of a procedural
13:04undertaking, as well as really continuing conversations with countries of origin,
13:09not just in the immediate neighborhood, but possibly also beyond that. But that will also
13:14require member states to align their policies, because we know that at the moment, it's a
13:20patchwork with readmission agreements at EU level, and then member states having their own
13:25at a bilateral level as well. And I think you're giving us a taste of just how complex
13:29migration asylum policy is, of course, we do have the pact that was agree on,
13:33agreed on it will come in to force in 2026. And but just on those policies of Georgia Maloney,
13:39we wanted to catch up with Italians to hear how they felt about them. So we asked our
13:44Rome correspondent, Georgia Orlandi, to put their microphones to them.
13:51I understand the importance of security, and I'm sure there are also human traffickers among them.
13:55However, focusing only on a security approach is misguided. While it's necessary, it shouldn't be
14:00the only focus. It's equally important to address the structural issues in countries whose resources
14:05have been exploited for years.
14:06Knowing Maloney's history and the history of her right wing party, I don't approve her policies.
14:15I'm not sure what the alternative could be. But certainly the current system isn't working.
14:24All the money spent building these hubs in Albania could have been used to set up similar
14:27centers in Italy. I don't see why it had to be in Albania. I don't think this approach is solving
14:32the migration issue. So a flavor there of reactions from Rome, but most agreeing that
14:38the current system doesn't work. Unfortunately, and I think the EU was struggling to help those
14:47first entry countries that are at the border to help them to manage these migrants. And
14:56especially, yes, there was a lot of finance going to those countries. But it's not only about money,
15:03it's also about, well, it's about everything. It's about building infrastructure. It's about
15:08talking to your own people. It's about framing a common migration message that you can communicate
15:14to EU citizens. But how deeply divided are we as an EU on this? I mean, you've seen editorials
15:20as well written about the EU could divide and break up. I mean, that's a little bit dramatic.
15:25I think it is dramatic. But at the same time, we have a pact that was adopted earlier this year,
15:31and we see member states already doubting that it will be effective when it becomes operational in
15:382026. We also see member states, specific member states saying it's not enough. And that was meant
15:45to be at the apex of European efforts. You know, the final piece that was missing to make sure that
15:51Europe united focuses and deals with this fundamental issue. I think there's political
15:58expediency there that we need to factor in as well. For many of these politicians, you know,
16:03the politics of migration can boost their electoral fortunes, their political fortunes.
16:09And going back to a point that I made at the very beginning, there are real concerns,
16:13societal concerns. We heard from some people that the system as is isn't working. And then there are
16:20political choices that are made. And some politicians, an increasing amount of politicians
16:25are mixing the two. They think that what we're proposing now, it's the only natural solution
16:31to these real concerns, forgetting about the risk, forgetting about the threats of which there are
16:35many. And indeed, when you say this is a an issue for people we've seen in Germany, Helena, your
16:41home country, this is number one issue when people are asked what is their priority? What is their
16:45biggest concern? We've also seen the German government introduce checks on the borders,
16:49which is a big deal for a country with so many borders. So what is the mood in Germany?
16:54Well, I think this is kind of the result of a long period of time where government as well
17:02as the population has felt like not enough is being done, not just in relation to regular migration,
17:08but importantly, more on the integration and inclusion side of things. I mean, what we've
17:13heard from countries like Germany and Austria saying our reception capacity is saturated.
17:18We don't necessarily have space to take in more people and have therefore tried to push for more
17:24restrictive measures and more measures countering irregular migration. But I think it's important
17:29to remember that there too, there are political choices to be made. And one of the things that
17:36always strikes me is that COVID, for instance, in my view, provided an opportunity to rethink
17:41how reception systems could be built so that there's more flexibility, for instance, to say,
17:47sometimes there will be more arrivals, sometimes there will be fewer arrivals. And what we're
17:51seeing now is a couple of years later is that in fact, few adjustments have been made. And so I
17:57think this is kind of a result of this. And border checks, as we know from the situation in 2015-16,
18:04has often been kind of an easy response to what is otherwise a much bigger political issue.
18:10Indeed. And just going back to the return hubs, we've seen a lot of NGOs say this week that it
18:16could be a return to prison-like situations, many fearing that here in Europe we're getting
18:21closer to the Australian model, which of course is known as being very, very harsh. And we wanted
18:25to ask an EU law professor for his take on this. So we had a chat with Francesco Gatta in Ljubljana.
18:31I think the Australian model is rather different. That's a matter of geography. First of all,
18:37Australia has been exploring asylum seekers in these very little islands, Manus and Nauru,
18:45which are literally very remote island. Journalists, media, NGOs, activists are not
18:51allowed there. We don't even know what happened there. In Europe, we are, again, with a founding
18:57member state of the EU. There must be control on these centres from politics, public opinion,
19:07NGOs, judges, of course, and lawyers. So here, fortunately, we have a way to control
19:12better their compatibility with EU law. So Professor Francesco Gatta there,
19:18speaking to me from the University of Levant-le-Neuf. So these centres, he's saying,
19:23in Albania would be very much run by Italian police. They'd have to respect Italian law
19:27and EU law. But still, we won't know what's really going on there, Lisa.
19:32Well, yeah, we don't know what's going on. And from what we've seen in the media,
19:37that it wasn't a very successful case so far, and people had to be returned back to Italy.
19:45Well, my always concern is that there is a lot of blind spots where the human rights are
19:56endangered, and there is a lot of space for human trafficking. And it's just not safe.
20:04And I wish there was a better consideration of those migrants.
20:10I think it's a case of, if I don't see a problem, then it doesn't exist. If only it was a matter of
20:17geography where these applications are handled. Just because European states have been unable
20:24to process fast enough, respecting human rights, the standards, the EU ethos, if you want,
20:30if we move the exercise of going through that process outside the EU, it's not going to solve
20:37the problem, you know. So just to conclude with Helena Hahn,
20:40a scandal or a solution to these return hubs? I think a good description is political noise.
20:48We know that there have been assessments that looked into the feasibility of such models.
20:54We also know that the European Commission itself said and identified several issues with this.
21:01That said, I think that some member states, whether for political reasons, because elections
21:06are coming up or otherwise, will still continue to pursue this. But I think it's only a question
21:12of time before we realise that actually there are quite a few obstacles hindering the implementation
21:17of such arrangements. Only a question of time. And one thing is sure, we will certainly be seeing
21:22much more debates about this topic in the European Parliament in Strasbourg and also at that upcoming
21:27EU summit in December. But for now, this conversation can come to an end. Stay with
21:32us here, though, on Euronews, because after the break, we'll be hearing how the Ukrainian
21:36President Zelensky's victory plan was received here in Brussels. See you soon.
21:50Welcome back to Brussels, my love. I'm Maeve McMahon and along with Vasilis Doussas,
21:56Lisa Beshvershenko and Helena Hahn, we're taking a look back at the news of late.
22:01And one we wanted to touch on was this, Ukraine's president in Brussels last week,
22:06warning EU and NATO leaders that thousands of North Koreans were being trained to fight against
22:11Ukraine. He presented his victory plan and promised it would strengthen Ukraine and beyond and could
22:17even end the war sooner rather than later. We can take a listen now to Volodymyr Zelensky.
22:23Putin should respect our strengths, not have the free world tremble at his threats. And we
22:30can and we can use the deterrence package only if Russia does not stop the war. The victory plan
22:39is a bridge to a successful second peace summit. You can help make this a reality.
22:47So, Lisa, how do Ukrainians feel about this plan? And how is your morale now as we go into another
22:52harsh winter? Well, every winter it's very difficult. And I think this peace plan comes
22:58during the time where there was a lot of silence and the silence gave space for alternative
23:04solutions of this war. And I think this peace plan is exactly reminding that Ukraine is not
23:11going back and is not giving up any territories. Maybe that was a bit of frustration that
23:19Volodymyr Zelensky didn't put any like softer points. On that plan, it very much says it wants
23:27a call to be invited into NATO as soon as possible. A green light to shoot long range
23:32strikes with Western weapons deep into Russia and also a refusal, as you say, to trade Ukraine's
23:37territory or sovereignty. How is it received for us here in Brussels? I mean, clearly,
23:41the Ukrainians, Ukrainian President Zelensky, you know, wanted something more, more substantive.
23:48I think the if we are to be honest, on a declaratory level, we had positive signals,
23:54some outliers like Lithuania accepting the plan, fully supporting the plan.
23:58But overall, the reaction was muted on the substantive level. But I still want to make
24:03the point that what Zelensky tried to do wasn't just to crystallize the asks of Ukraine in this
24:12particular moment to say one, two, three, four, five, six. But it was also a way, a plan, a plea,
24:19if you want to say this is the way to beat the fatigue that I see settling in in the international
24:25community. You know, essentially, how I saw the plan is him saying, look, help me now help Ukraine
24:32now. And if you do that decisively now, then this may well pave the way for an end of the war
24:42next year by the end of next year. I think not just a matter of beating the fatigue, as you said,
24:47but it's also in light of the upcoming U.S. elections. It's also with an eye to Germany.
24:53And so I very much see this as kind of, you know, not necessarily a final step,
24:58but really a decisive moment, because otherwise it may be too late.
25:01Well, indeed, you mentioned the elephant in the room, and that is the U.S. elections. And we saw
25:05the U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in Kiev this week announcing $400 million worth of new
25:11arms for Ukraine. And of course, showing his solidarity ahead of those elections, because we
25:15were concerned, obviously, to hear whether or not they could impact the efforts to end the war. So
25:21we spoke to Stephen Efritz. He's the director of the EU Institute for Security Studies.
25:26A victorious, successful, democratic Ukraine is within reach and remains within reach,
25:33and I would say remains even in Europe, even if Donald Trump were to win the U.S. elections
25:39and embark on a very different course than Biden has thus far. And we cannot afford this
25:45paralysis that we have seen sort of creep into European conversations around Ukraine. It feels a
25:50little bit different today, in 24, than it felt in 22, when we were breaking taboos and taking very
25:56ambitious steps. We need to recapture some of the spirit of 2022. Stephen Efritz there,
26:02reiterating kind of what we're hearing as well around the panel, trying to get back to that
26:06momentum. It does seem, Lisa, that we're paralyzed, even though we see these reports of 11,000
26:12North Korean troops ready to fight your people. Yeah, I think, I don't know what else should
26:17happen for the Western Europe and the U.S. to wake up fully and to see that they are directly
26:23engaged in this war. And I think there is a lack of understanding what the victory of Ukraine is,
26:30because it actually means defeat of Russia. And some countries don't want Russia to defeat,
26:34and they are scared what will be the future of Russia. But we will always be in this limbo
26:39before we arm Ukraine appropriately. And we know what it means to end the war. And there is
26:47steps after the end of the war to ensure security of Ukraine, which will also then
26:52lead to the security of Eastern European region. Well, you mentioned Russia. We saw, Vasilis,
26:57this week the BRICS meeting, Vladimir Putin hosting his counterparts from India, China, Iran,
27:04South Africa. Was there fear around this time about the outcome of that meeting?
27:09Look, for Russia, what's happening in Ukraine, not only in Ukraine, in the wider neighborhood,
27:13but primarily in Ukraine is existential. And it will use every diplomatic lever,
27:20every diplomatic gathering, any tool, any connection that it has to try and boost its
27:27own fortunes. And certainly, the BRICS summit was a big PR stunt for Putin, just to try and portray
27:35confidence, project that he's on the winning side. And when you combine that imagery with
27:41the intel reports about North Korean troops on the ground being trained to be deployed,
27:48when you know you have the U.S. election, where I will disagree with Stephen, I think it can have
27:53an existential impact on how the Ukraine dossier is handled by both sides of the Atlantic.
27:59And when you have other critical elections, like in Germany, as Helena said,
28:03that really underpin the skepticism that characterize the conduct, the approach of
28:10the current German government, then I think it works. It gives an imagery that Russia is on
28:16the winning side and we're not. And I would like to underline what Lisa said. This is not just about
28:23Ukraine's win. This is about Russia's defeat as well, because it's either or at this stage.
28:30If I may add, we have a lot of experience. And if there is someone who believes in
28:35freezing this conflict, for us, we know that from 2014 to 2022, it took Russia eight years
28:43to launch a full-scale invasion. If we freeze this war for another eight years now with the
28:47current capacities of Russia and trained army, it will need even less time to launch another
28:54invasion, another attack. And I'm afraid, together with occupied territories and occupied
29:04people that are under those territories, we know that Ukrainians are forced to train and fight
29:10on the side of Russia. I think Russian army is becoming stronger and stronger this time.
29:15And on that point, we can close this conversation. For more information,
29:19do check out our website, euronews.com, for more analysis. But for now, thank you so much
29:23to our panel for your insights and analysis. And thank you so much for watching. See you soon on
29:28Euronews.
29:37Hello there, and welcome to Brussels, my love. I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with my panel,
29:43Lisa Bezvrishenko, Helena Hahn, and Vasilis Doussas, we're just sifting through the big
29:49stories of the week. And one that you might have seen already reported here on Euronews
29:53was this, a referendum on EU membership in Europe's poorest country, Moldova, sandwiched
29:59between Romania and Ukraine. Locals said yes to Brussels, but only just, just over 50% were in
30:07favour, and 49.54% against presidential elections also took place. But due to no clear outcome,
30:15a second round is scheduled for November 3rd. For more, we can take a listen now to the incumbent
30:20president, Maya Sandu.
30:29I voted specifically because Moldovans must determine their fate,
30:33not others, not dirty money, not lies, but the will of the people.
30:37I voted so that Moldova can develop. I will make universal efforts so that Moldova can build the
30:49future it wants. Everyone's vote is important. It's not just a stamp on paper. It's your say
30:56for your fate.
30:57It's pretty interesting, Helena, what's going on right now in Moldova. Were you watching it?
31:01Yeah, and I mean, I think as for the referendum, it's really just by this very tight margin. I
31:09think there's, it says a lot. It says a lot about the broader political environment that we're in.
31:16And I think it also, unfortunately, sends a sign to the EU that while it started accession talks,
31:24just not too long ago, that there really is a risk of foreign interference, of increasing and ongoing
31:33influence by Russia. And as for the election, I think it's a sign to the EU that there's a risk
31:41of increasing and ongoing influence by Russia. And as for the elections itself, I think there
31:47we'll have to keep an eye on who will essentially then fall behind Maya Sandu's biggest political
31:55opponent and what the outcome will be.
31:58I think it's a bit of a reality check facilities for officials here in Brussels who are competing
32:03with the Kremlin there for influence.
32:05Not just in Brussels, I was in Moldova just two, three short weeks ago, nobody expected
32:12the outcome of the referendum to be as close as it was. And for a chunk of that election night,
32:18I have to say everyone worried that the no might come on top actually. So it was only in the final
32:24stint that we got the yes overcoming the no, which everyone expected, but the slimmest of margins,
32:30nobody did. I think there was a case of optimist bias. I think what we saw in the referendum is a
32:37clear outcome of two reasons. One was what you said, Russian interference operations attempts
32:46of unimaginable magnitude, scale, diversity, unprecedented formal Dover, but also very
32:54remarkable for international standards as well. But also I suspect what is often lost in these
33:00discussion is the fact that a good chunk of that much higher percentage of no also came from people
33:06who are, because he was like any other election, who protested against the incumbent, against the
33:12government as well.
33:14Yeah, another day in Europe where the Russian influence was underestimated. And it reminds
33:23me a lot of 2014 when we had the bigger revolution in Euromaidan. And before that, there was also
33:30this decision whether we go to the West, to Europe or to Russia. And we see how much it costs for
33:38Ukraine to beat for the European choice. And I hope that for our neighbors, Moldova and Georgia,
33:45that this fight for democracy and for European choice will not come at that price. And for this,
33:51we have as Europe, we have to support each other and we have to, first of all, beat Russian hybrid
33:58warfare.
33:59You mentioned Georgia, of course, who are voting this weekend as well, which we're keeping a very
34:03close eye on here on Euronews. But just to mention the Moldovan diaspora, of course, is quite
34:07significant. The UN says 1.5 million Moldovans are living abroad and some are here in Brussels
34:14studying downtown. So we had the opportunity to ask them how they felt about these elections
34:18and these allegations of meddling from the Kremlin.
34:21I think this referendum is a unique and important step in the history of Moldova, as it shows
34:30Moldovans true aspirations to the EU, because even though Russia tried with different methods to
34:39fail this referendum, we showed how truly European we are at heart.
34:44We can change something. We can change something for good, because our parents and grandparents
34:50lived in a society that was under Russia. And it wasn't good at all. Everyone was sad. Everything
34:57was so, so bad. We didn't have the rights. They took everything from us. They changed the language,
35:05they changed the tradition. And now we have the opportunity to make a difference.
35:14So Valentina Topola there and Daniela Balutel describing their past and their hope for the
35:19future with cautious, nervous optimism. Yes. Just going back to your question about the EU,
35:25I think for once what's happening in Moldova is a case of the EU helping.
35:31I would like to underline that the EU has a mission in the country for the first time looks
35:36at hybrid threats. The EU announced just days before the referendum vote a massive growth plan
35:42for Moldova. These are valuable levers, tools that the EU has at its disposal, and it's showing
35:48political willingness to mobilise. The question is, is this enough in order to make justice to
35:55the hopes that we just heard? Because Russia, and I have to say this, left no stone unturned
36:00in terms of what it tried to do in the country to influence the vote. And of course, this is,
36:05even if doesn't succeed this time, there's always a parliamentary election in Moldova coming up
36:09next year, where it can use the same textbook, a playbook, and then it might succeed that time.
36:19Yeah, I think what's important here also to underline is that it is very much a question
36:25of what the young generation in Moldova expects. And here I also see parallels with Georgia,
36:30where there have been a lot of protest movements, years long efforts to try and
36:37kind of reinforce and assert this sort of pro-European stance vis-a-vis,
36:45again, not just Russian interference, but also within the country on democratic forces.
36:49We've seen those incredible pictures on our screens throughout the week. But that can conclude this
36:53conversation. Thank you so much, Lisa, Fasilis and Helena for being our panel this weekend.
36:59And thank you so much as well for tuning into us here on Euronews on Brussels, my love.
37:03Any comments for us on what you've heard here or any topics that you'd like us to dive into,
37:09reach out to brusselsmylove at euronews.com or reach out to us directly on social media.
37:15Take care and see you soon.