Brussels, my love? explores the potential threat of Trump 2.0. What would happen if a NATO ally were attacked by Putin? Would Trump respond proportionately and in the interests of America's closest partners? Or would he take the view that he bore no responsibility to respond?
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00:00 Hello and welcome to Brussels My Love, your news's weekly talk show about all the news
00:17 in Brussels and beyond.
00:18 Seana Murray here standing in for Maeve.
00:21 Coming up this week, is Europe prepared for Donald Trump in the White House?
00:26 Are Trump's frequent criticisms of NATO and its allies putting European security at risk?
00:31 Has he cast doubt on the strength of collective security?
00:35 Will Trump be the President Putin needs to succeed in Ukraine and beyond?
00:41 And a major investigation into Russian interference and disinformation as part of the European
00:47 elections.
00:48 Belgian Prime Minister Alexander de Kroo said on Thursday that Russia had approached
00:52 EU lawmakers and paid them to promote Russian propaganda in Europe.
00:57 So how do you spot information that looks legitimate but is in fact part of a disinformation
01:03 war designed to confuse and divide voters?
01:06 Well, let me introduce our panel this week.
01:09 Kate Balmgaro from Emlex, Tommy Huttanen, the Executive Director of the Wilfrid Martin
01:14 Centre for European Studies and Vlad Georg, a renewed MEP from Romania.
01:20 Now before we hear from them, let's take a look at why Europe fears a Trump return to
01:25 the White House.
01:30 As the US election in November draws closer, Europe is fast gaining an insight into the
01:36 potential policies of a Trump presidency.
01:41 Before any election has even taken place, Trump has told elected senators in his Republican
01:47 Party to vote against a bipartisan $60 billion military support package for Ukraine.
01:57 As a direct result, Ukrainian soldiers are suffering heavy losses following a relentless
02:02 onslaught from the Russian army where they simply don't have enough weapons to defend
02:07 themselves.
02:10 Belgian Prime Minister Alexander de Kroo said a Trump presidency would leave Europe on its
02:15 own.
02:16 British Prime Minister Donald Tusk said Europe was now in a pre-war era.
02:23 So can the remaining NATO states defend Europe in the face of Trump 2.0?
02:32 So help me God.
02:33 Well, Kate, I might just go to you first, because before we get into the collective
02:38 security issue for Europe, I mean, you've been looking at Project 2025, which is essentially
02:43 the blueprint for Trump's manifesto if he were to return to the White House.
02:47 Talk us through a little bit of the content.
02:49 So basically, this is a plan put forward by the Heritage Foundation, which is working
02:53 very closely with Donald Trump's re-election campaign.
02:56 And the idea would be to be able to circumvent any sort of ways that lawmakers could railroad
03:02 any of Trump's plans, like via Congress or the Senate, by using presidential executive
03:06 orders.
03:07 So the whole idea is that they would be able to use the model that's being used right now
03:11 in states across the US, for example, to get through anti-abortion legislation.
03:16 And so this plan basically promises that abortion would no longer be allowed.
03:23 They're actually looking at a national abortion ban effectively, because abortion is not considered
03:26 health care, removing anti-discrimination laws for LGBTQI people, but even any relation
03:32 to gender.
03:33 There's a lot of changes there.
03:34 The law enforcement would only be responsible to the president, so they would be able to
03:39 also enact a lot of different orders, ordering the military, for example, to do raids on
03:45 people that are illegally in the United States.
03:47 So there is a lot of concern there about what that would mean.
03:50 Yeah, and also, I mean, part of it was about getting rid of senior experts in the state
03:55 departments and then putting in Trump allies, MAGA allies in their place.
04:01 So you wouldn't have the so-called adults in the room, as they were called in the last
04:05 White House that Trump was involved in.
04:06 Well, exactly.
04:07 So there's over 50,000 people who would be removed from the civil service and they would
04:11 be replaced by folks who support Trump and his way of seeing the world.
04:15 And actually, that order was put in place before Trump lost the election.
04:21 And so that was something that he actually never got to act on.
04:23 But that's still part of his plan as well.
04:25 And he's been very vocal about that.
04:27 So yeah, it is something to be concerned about as well.
04:30 What do you think, Vlad?
04:31 Are you concerned?
04:32 Well, definitely concerned, but I wouldn't say afraid, because we shouldn't be afraid
04:37 of what we cannot control.
04:39 And if we know something about this guy is that he's definitely uncontrollable.
04:43 We still do have checks and balances in the USA.
04:46 Definitely the NATO as well.
04:48 The NATO partners are working together now, mostly than before.
04:54 So we shouldn't be scared.
04:56 But I can tell you something from Romania to Belgium to the U.S. this year, we have
05:02 the same sentiment because people are really tired of the same politics of the same parties.
05:08 And this is how the extremists thrives.
05:11 You know, we have populists because being believed by the people, because we have this
05:16 sentiment that the parties have failed.
05:18 I'm running in Romania as an independent, and I always get this on the street.
05:23 Listen, all the parties are the same.
05:25 They promised us something and now they're doing exactly the opposite.
05:31 And in this condition, we have the public looking at populists.
05:35 So this is what's going on.
05:36 But that is for sure.
05:37 But I mean, if you look at, let's say, the security issue per se, Tommy, I mean, we've
05:41 already seen Trump say some pretty frightening things during this campaign so far.
05:44 And an event recently, he was saying that NATO was busted until he came along and that
05:49 he wouldn't protect countries if they didn't pay up.
05:53 The quote was, no, I would not protect other countries if they don't pay.
05:57 In fact, I would encourage them, Russia, to do whatever the hell they want.
06:01 You've got to pay.
06:02 You've got to pay your bills.
06:03 So encouraging Russia to do whatever the hell they want to America's allies in NATO.
06:10 So indeed, I think there's two issues.
06:11 First of all, what happens in the US domestically and second, how do we relate to that reality?
06:17 First I would say there's no reason for Trump panic.
06:19 The United States will remain the most important partner for the European Union and Europe.
06:25 But in reality, as you mentioned, is that we cannot anymore rely on US support.
06:29 And indeed, Ukraine is the first thing.
06:31 So we really need to triple up our support to Ukraine.
06:35 And in the same way, referring what you said, we need to start to build up our own defense
06:40 capabilities, our defense pyramid, defense industry capability, military movement, all
06:47 of that.
06:48 Because in that issue, we need to, you know, we don't know what kind of support we will
06:51 get.
06:52 But that's in the medium to long term.
06:54 I mean, Ukraine urgently needs weapons.
06:57 And the United States, due to influence from Trump so far is holding up $60 billion, which
07:02 has a direct impact on the Ukrainian front line already.
07:06 Trump isn't even in the White House yet.
07:07 He may not be at all either.
07:09 Yeah, well, first of all, on the bill, we hope that now in two, three weeks, it will
07:13 go through, but we don't know.
07:16 But indeed, as you mentioned, now it's our moment for Europeans to support because even
07:21 if the bill is accepted, you know, then it will take time before the impact.
07:26 So the urgent help and support is needed for Ukraine in this situation.
07:30 Okay, well, earlier this week, I spoke with Ian Bond from the Center for European Reform.
07:35 Take a listen to his exposition as to why Europe does fear another Trump presidency.
07:42 I think we saw in the first Trump term that Trump was totally subservient to Putin.
07:48 And I think Putin would love to be able to exploit that again.
07:51 Trump was presented with an opportunity to say that America's intelligence agencies had
07:57 shown that Russia had attacked America's democratic processes.
08:01 And he basically said, President Putin assured me that he hadn't done that, and I have no
08:05 reason to doubt him.
08:07 It was an absolutely extraordinary, you know, jaw dropping moment.
08:11 I mean, I fear that if, for example, Russia used hybrid warfare tactics against a NATO
08:18 member state, you know, Putin says, well, the Russian community in this country is being
08:23 oppressed and I have to intervene and do something about it.
08:27 I think the chances are that Joe Biden or almost any other American leader I can imagine
08:32 would say, shove that idea.
08:34 This is our ally and we will defend them.
08:36 I think Trump's inclination would be to say, well, you know, maybe Putin has a point.
08:41 I think Europeans have to prepare for the worst, even if they hope for the best.
08:46 So prepare for the worst, but hope for the best, Kate.
08:49 I think that was a really important point there made from Ian, that Biden wouldn't hesitate
08:54 to protect allies because that's the point of collective security, but that Trump would
08:59 potentially hesitate and listen to what Putin is saying.
09:02 Well, certainly it does lend credibility to Putin's whole campaign in Ukraine if he has
09:08 a powerful ally or even someone sympathetic in the White House, right?
09:11 That positioning of the United States is quite critical to NATO and also in general to world
09:16 order because the US has guaranteed the current world order, which is based on democracy,
09:20 you know, free markets.
09:21 So we will, we could risk seeing a slow erosion of democracy and an erosion of rights, including
09:27 freedom of the press, for example, human rights.
09:29 So that is something that I think this is just a broader indication of the risk that
09:34 we're taking in sleepwalking into the era that we appear to be entering.
09:37 And Trump could definitely precipitate that.
09:39 Yeah.
09:40 I mean, that's the point.
09:41 You know, that Trump, what Leon Bond said, used the word subservient when it comes to
09:47 Putin.
09:48 Yeah, well, we need to learn from this and we need to be more independent in Europe.
09:52 We need to stop looking at our, let's say, bigger cousin over the big sea, over the ocean,
10:00 and we need to strengthen our armed forces.
10:04 So it doesn't matter what this guy says.
10:08 And I must say that he didn't win yet.
10:10 So it doesn't matter if it's Biden or Trump.
10:14 We need to be stronger in Europe and we need to act together.
10:18 We saw what's happening in Ukraine.
10:20 Now we're seeing that if the Americans stop helping, there is a huge issue there.
10:26 So we need to step up and have our own real armed forces.
10:31 And again, stop looking at our, I don't know, big cousin, big brother.
10:35 We need to be stronger and we need to have this independence in taking our own, our own
10:40 decisions.
10:41 It doesn't matter who wins in the US.
10:44 It needs, it matters if we're stronger or not as Europe.
10:49 But I mean, yeah, because that's the point you were also making, Tommy, but at the same
10:53 time, you know, we've only got a few months, you know, when we're talking about collective
10:57 security for Europe, it's really a medium, long term goal.
11:02 Indeed.
11:03 But about Putin, I think the test will come.
11:06 The test will come.
11:07 Putin will test Article 5.
11:09 I think that's very, the likelihood is high.
11:11 But it will be something, it will be not a very strong invasion, some kind of movement,
11:17 Green Man, hybrid attack, et cetera, et cetera.
11:20 So that's how it will play out.
11:22 And secondly, how America will react, it also depends how we react.
11:26 You know, just a couple of days ago, I spoke with the Congress staff and that was the message.
11:32 Also, they're looking like Taiwan like that, that when, you know, when we act strongly,
11:37 they support, the readiness to support will be stronger.
11:40 But people said that once the EU announced that it was finally going to give the 50 billion
11:46 euro lifeline to Ukraine after Christmas, and yet we still see the 60 billion euro being
11:51 withheld because of the influence of Trump, not because people in the GOP or the Republican
11:55 Party actually don't agree with it.
11:58 Yeah, well, indeed.
11:59 But of course, the pressure, you know, pressure is there.
12:01 And I think the key, referring what was said earlier, also, if Trump gets elected, that's
12:06 the question, how much, because there is a maturity to support Ukraine in Congress.
12:12 The problem is that domestic politics is hindering that.
12:15 So the question is how that will then play out.
12:18 I mean, Kate, you know, Ivan's point about, you know, Europe ensuring that it can protect
12:22 itself, you know, that makes sense in the context we're in.
12:25 But are people behind that message?
12:28 Because I think people are very fearful that some of it is a bit of scare among them, but
12:31 also are worried about the sort of that sort of militarization tone.
12:34 Well, I think certainly I think the thing is, I think that after the 1990s and the fall
12:39 of communism, we had all hoped that, you know, we would be moving beyond, you know, the need
12:43 for militaries.
12:44 There was this, you know, the hope that we would be able to move forward in peace.
12:48 And, you know, of course, there would still be frictions.
12:50 But so I think that, honestly, a lot of folks are still living with that hope.
12:54 But it's slowly becoming, you know, a reality that that is no that is not going to happen
12:59 and that we are falling into a world that is becoming more polarized with more risk.
13:03 And there is a need there to increase that funding to ensure that Trump actually would
13:09 support Europe.
13:10 So for example, there's still quite a bit of a shortfall of spending of that 2 percent
13:13 GDP that he had asked European countries to do.
13:17 And so bridging that gap is going to be critical.
13:19 And I think people don't necessarily understand the immediate reasons why they should be spending
13:26 their tax dollars on that.
13:28 Because I mean, you see even NATO now trying to so-called Trump proof NATO to ensure that
13:33 there's 100 billion euros there over a five year period to ensure that Ukraine gets consistent
13:38 support, not ad hoc support, where then there's obviously issues on the front line.
13:43 Do you think that's a way forward?
13:45 Definitely.
13:46 And we need to do that.
13:47 And we need to understand that we're not helping Ukraine per se.
13:50 We're helping us as well, because we do have the biggest war at our borders, the biggest
13:56 war since World War Two.
13:58 And when I say our border, I mean Europe's border, NATO's border and Romania's border,
14:03 my country.
14:04 So we're all involved there.
14:06 And we see rockets flying, drones exploding, actually in our borders.
14:12 And we cannot fight that with flowers.
14:14 I don't know.
14:15 Great ideas.
14:16 Great ideas are good.
14:17 But when you have a huge war driven by a madman in Moscow, you need rockets, you need bullets,
14:23 you need planes.
14:24 And for that, of course, you need money.
14:27 You know, Vlad's point there, do you think that resonates with everybody?
14:31 Because obviously Romania is on the border, OK, and Finland has just joined NATO because
14:36 of, obviously, collective security.
14:37 But is everyone in Europe on that same page?
14:39 I mean, if you look at maybe, I suppose, well, I'm Irish, so maybe Ireland and Malta and
14:44 other countries, they don't tend to see it in that way as much as such an existential
14:49 threat.
14:50 Yeah, well, you know, first of all, Ukraine, of course, is a crucial issue.
14:55 But as it comes to Trump, I think the key is that we don't know how, if Trump is elected,
15:01 how it's going to play out.
15:03 So we need to, you know, conduct a new administration, have that, you know, relation.
15:09 And we don't know how the thing will turn.
15:11 But finally, then when this domestic aspect would be away, how much support there would
15:15 be in Ukraine.
15:16 We cannot – we have to be optimistic also about this.
15:19 OK.
15:20 Fair enough case.
15:21 But I mean, like, as we heard there, prepare for the worst, because we have seen Trump
15:28 in the last White House.
15:29 And you know, he even had the support of the likes of Rex Tiller and others who actually
15:34 left his side, who said that, you know, he is, you know, narcissistic and so on.
15:41 And this time round, you looked at the manifesto, it looks like he really wants to take revenge.
15:46 So we can be optimistic, but we also have to prepare.
15:49 I think definitely, and definitely this is Trump 2.0.
15:52 And I think, you know, what we saw with the insurrection in January of 2021, I do think
15:58 we need to be aware.
15:59 I mean, all of the checks and balances survived the first Trump presidency.
16:04 But is it robust enough to survive another one where he's clearly laid out a map, roadmap
16:09 with his allies to undermine a lot of those systems?
16:12 So I think that's the big question.
16:13 OK, well, even on holiday in the US, Maeve joined us with the dispatch on how Americans
16:18 are feeling about the upcoming election.
16:21 With elections coming up here on the 5th of November, I'm in New York today asking Americans
16:27 how they feel, firstly, about the elections, if they will be voting and what impact they
16:32 think the outcome of these elections will be having on the world and especially on Europe.
16:36 It's a little disappointing that the options aren't inspiring because we feel like there
16:42 aren't really any good choices.
16:44 Will you be voting in the elections?
16:47 Probably not this one.
16:48 Quite difficult to choose who's going to be the better one in the end of the four terms.
16:53 Americans should vote wisely.
16:54 We need to be more diverse and more unified and also be more economical.
17:00 Obviously, I think the whole world is going to be watching this election.
17:04 If Trump wins, it'll be a sorry day for the world.
17:10 The sorry day.
17:12 So let's hope and pray he loses.
17:15 Now, that was in New York.
17:18 So that last sentiment you probably expect to find in the streets in New York.
17:22 What I thought was interesting, Vlad, was the young guy in between that, he said he
17:25 was going to stay away.
17:26 That's never a good sign for democracy.
17:29 And also it probably likely mean that Trump could be an advantage there if people stay
17:35 away who are sort of don't really know who to choose.
17:38 It's exactly what I've been saying at the start of the show.
17:41 That's disappointment there.
17:42 So those are people disappointed by the current politics, by the current parties, and they're
17:49 disappointed that the parties are promoting the same people over and over again, not necessarily
17:55 the ones they want to vote for.
17:57 So it's a bad situation for the American democracy, but it's not just there.
18:01 It's happening in Europe as well.
18:04 But I saw people that are, let's say, less pessimistic about things.
18:09 So let's see how the election works out.
18:11 And either way it goes, we need in Europe, we need to rely on ourselves and start understanding
18:18 that we can control only our actions.
18:23 Other people's actions, we cannot control them.
18:25 So stop fearing other people's actions and start, you know, take back control if we're
18:31 talking about some old slogan.
18:33 But this is how we can do it.
18:36 Start investing in our own facilities, our own armies, and then we can put aside whoever
18:42 wins whatever, wherever.
18:45 Tommy, you're nodding there.
18:47 Yeah, absolutely.
18:48 To say, you know, the defense, because even with Biden, you see the trends, because actually
18:53 many policies, policies which existed or started in Trump period have continued.
18:58 Even if the talk is different, the reality is trade.
19:03 You know, a good example.
19:04 So as Vlad said, the defense, indeed, there may be a conflict with Russia when we are
19:10 alone.
19:11 So what we do, we prepare.
19:13 But this, I think, would have come also with, you know, how the trend is also with Biden
19:17 and et cetera, et cetera.
19:18 But I think, you know, you have in Europe countries which are not really, doesn't have
19:23 a military force to even protect themselves.
19:25 And so we cannot be in that situation, obviously.
19:27 Well, with the U.S. election in November, no doubt we'll be returning to this huge topic
19:32 again and again before then.
19:33 But for now, we can bring this discussion to an end and take a break.
19:37 But stay with us here on Euronews.
19:48 Welcome back to Brussels, my love.
19:49 Shona Murray standing in for Maeve this week.
19:52 The European Parliament is investigating Russian interference into the European elections,
19:56 potentially involving a number of MEPs.
19:59 Czech and Belgian authorities say a so-called news website called The Voice of Europe is
20:04 in fact a Kremlin propaganda tool which is now being sanctioned by the Czech authorities.
20:09 It also has a YouTube channel where MEPs have been interviewed.
20:12 There's no suggestion here the MEPs featured have been paid by Russia.
20:16 But it's long been expected that Russia would interfere in the elections here.
20:20 It just wasn't known the method stayed in play.
20:22 Kate, just talk us through about this particular investigation in the Parliament.
20:27 Well, so the Parliament has said that it is looking into an unconfirmed number of MEPs
20:32 for being paid to spread what they've called, you know, this Russian influence and Russian
20:37 propaganda ahead of the European elections.
20:40 And obviously, this is something that was to be expected, that there would be Russian
20:43 interference.
20:44 That's been something we've seen over the last few years.
20:45 But the Parliament says it's taking it very seriously.
20:49 And it does center, the Czech authorities had said that it was centered around this
20:52 Voice of Europe, which features about a dozen MEPs that are still up there in interviews
20:58 on their YouTube channel.
20:59 So their website and ex accounts have been suspended.
21:02 But again, there's really not a lot of details right now as to what's been happening, exactly
21:06 how the Kremlin has been able to influence them.
21:09 Well, in this case, of course, it is MEPs being approached with bribes.
21:13 But earlier I spoke with Professor Ivan Khrist from the University of Tartu in Estonia about
21:17 the varying different methods Russians can deploy during elections.
21:23 The old troll factories, so called, where there would be a number of employees interacting
21:28 with social media users through fake or anonymous accounts, those days are coming to an end.
21:36 And now it's there's more and more deployment of AI solutions and instruments that require
21:42 minimum engagement.
21:43 Right now, a recent trend, and this is seen especially with Russian disinformation campaigns,
21:48 is to create deep fakes, to impersonate politicians, public figures, even individuals giving testimonies,
21:57 to disseminate narratives from their lips, let's say for their digital facsimiles, and
22:04 to lend credence to disinformation narratives.
22:06 I think we can be prepared if we take action.
22:10 If governments take action, if civil society mobilizes, we can be ready.
22:14 Vlad, you're on social media a lot, Twitter and TikTok and so on.
22:18 So tell us, I mean, what do you experience?
22:20 Because what was interesting was what Ivan was saying there that the days of the bots
22:23 are coming to an end.
22:24 Well, that's true.
22:25 I can tell you that.
22:28 Very fashionable is the Russian narrative with fake news.
22:33 So different crazy stories like the EU is making you eat fake meat and stuff like that.
22:40 And I must tell you that one of the best videos that we put on social media with the most
22:47 views are the ones where we debunk these fake news, or the ones where we tell the people
22:55 how to understand the difference between fake videos, between AI-made videos and stuff like
23:01 that.
23:02 So what I can tell you is that the need for information is there.
23:05 You can, again, you can see that in the millions of views that those videos make on our social
23:12 media.
23:13 So the people need the information, but they need it in a way that it's easy to understand
23:19 and easy to process.
23:21 And I don't think that the institutions are doing the same thing.
23:24 If you read the instructions from the European institutions, I cannot read them.
23:29 So they're too long, too complicated.
23:33 This is not the way to fight the Russians.
23:36 You need to be very specific, very easy to understand and talk directly to the people.
23:42 Yeah, Tommy, that's what we heard from Ivan earlier, that we can be prepared.
23:46 But are we prepared?
23:47 Yeah, but indeed, this very whole discussion about Parliament scandal, I think that's kind
23:52 of missing the point, because this is not the tip of the iceberg.
23:55 It's one corner.
23:56 Like Ivan said, there's a massive, since years, Russian influencing operation, misinformation
24:03 operation in Europe in various levels.
24:06 And in Parliament, the challenge is that, you know, as European Union and the European
24:11 institutions have become a kind of major global player, now all these, like Russia, these
24:16 actors are trying to intervene, you know, in a corrupted manner.
24:20 And then the problem is that there's no agency who is really looking at the European institutes
24:25 and trying to protect it.
24:27 As you mentioned, it's the Belgium authorities.
24:29 But what we clearly need in here in Brussels, it either much better coordinate, you know,
24:34 Belgium is doing great, but we need still better coordination between member states
24:39 on this issue or some kind of agency.
24:40 Well, you know, the EU institutes can, because, you know, European Parliament is the legislator.
24:46 It's not to hunt these cases.
24:48 Yeah, that's an interesting point, Kate, because as Tommy was saying, I mean, it's been going
24:52 on for years and we've expected it and we saw it in 2016.
24:57 And yet there's no specific agency really looking into it.
25:01 Well, exactly.
25:02 And I think the thing is that with MEPs, there is the Parliament behind them.
25:05 And, you know, there's the ombudsman who's chasing down any allegations.
25:08 There's a process there for any sort of Kremlin funding.
25:11 I think what I'm concerned about, especially for young voters, are influencers and the
25:15 other ways that Russia is paying folks to spread their message.
25:19 And I mean, on social media, there's a lot of deep fakes.
25:22 AI has made things a lot more complicated and influencers are not subject to the same
25:26 controls as elected officials.
25:27 So we...
25:28 Just talk us a little bit like that.
25:29 So you mean like young people in their 20s who can get paid on Instagram for promoting
25:33 something could easily fall into the trap?
25:36 For sure.
25:37 You could easily have, just like they do with products, they're paid to put a product placement.
25:41 They could be paid to say something about a legislation.
25:44 And a lot of the time, these are not folks that have the best expertise about what they're
25:47 talking about, but they get a lucrative contract with what they could consider as perhaps a
25:52 legitimate company.
25:53 And they're basically just a front for money for promoting the interests of a certain actor,
25:58 whether it's a state or a non-state actor.
25:59 We see that all the time.
26:00 And it's a big issue in social media.
26:02 I mean, is that something that you see when you're on TikTok in particular?
26:07 Well, we didn't get that many cases of this, but I can tell you this.
26:13 If as an elected official, if you're an MEP or an MP, a national member of parliament,
26:19 if you get money to say something, that's criminal and that's it.
26:24 So it's not just something that you don't do.
26:28 That's against the law.
26:29 So we saw that in Qatargate.
26:31 It's the same thing, actually, but different actors.
26:34 Now we get this from Russian sponsored companies or whatever.
26:39 So I understand that, but I suppose the point is, is actually is the more subtle aspects
26:45 that you see on the likes of TikTok.
26:47 Well, there are some things like that, but I don't see links between foreign actors,
26:54 money being paid.
26:55 I see just a really interesting narrative that is being put out there and that's being
27:01 spread, I would say naturally, because there's no counter narrative to explain that it's
27:08 fake or Russian orientated or something like that.
27:11 Okay, well, that concludes our discussion on disinformation.
27:13 Thanks again to our panel, Kate Bollingaro from MLEX, Tommy Hutanen, the executive director
27:19 of the Wilfrid Martin Center for European Studies and Vlad Georg, Renew MEP from Romania.
27:25 And thank you for watching.
27:26 See you soon on Euronews.
27:36 Welcome back to Brussels, my love.
27:38 And alongside my panel this week, we're taking a look at the results of the World Happiness
27:43 Report.
27:44 Now they're from the years 2021 to 23, and based on so-called life evaluations.
27:48 If you just take a look at the graph there, you'll see Finland is top of the 10 countries.
27:56 Interesting because Finland is the happiest country in the world for seven years in a
28:00 row.
28:01 Now partly the report considers some variables, GDP per capita, social support, healthy life
28:06 expectancy, freedom from corruption, and generosity.
28:09 Tommy, tell us how do you do it?
28:11 This may come as a surprise, but not all Finns or Nordics are living in euphoria and actually
28:17 we are normal mortals as everybody else.
28:19 And in fact, especially Finns feel that, you know, they are a little bit uncomfortable
28:23 with this happiness level because in our nature, we feel that there's this sweet melancholia
28:28 there on the surface.
28:30 And I think the issue here is that in fact, it's happiness, the studies, it's not really
28:34 about happiness, it's about well-being.
28:36 And then you have all these indicators, you know, which you mentioned, but there's also
28:40 interviews and so there is some factual reality.
28:44 As a Finn, I could say, you know, three points which kind of, when you go outside from that
28:49 country, from my home country, is the trust in society, savvy individuals, so people trust
28:55 each other, and also good governance, so people trust the administration and feel that the
29:01 state is supporting them and, you know, it's not corrupted, et cetera, et cetera.
29:06 And maybe social, there's not much social hierarchy.
29:08 We have president, prime minister, and they come from more or less the same background
29:13 than everybody, everyone else.
29:14 That was sort of the point you were making earlier about people having lost faith in
29:19 politics and politicians.
29:21 Well, yeah, definitely it's the same thing over again.
29:24 But if we're having a little bit of fun on this subject, I would say that it's something
29:28 about the weather because I see basically eight of 10 countries have very cold weather.
29:34 I sincerely cannot understand that.
29:35 I'm very happy when I go in the sun.
29:39 But other than that, in Romania, other than sun, we don't have a lot of reasons to be
29:44 happy.
29:45 So, yeah, and I think going to the serious side, I think one of the biggest differences
29:51 looking from the Romanian point of view, I would say the education system, which works
29:57 very, very well in your country, and that prepares you for life, and that's a very important
30:03 thing, and also the rule of law, which in Romania, the citizens have definitely lost
30:09 faith in the legal system, in the administration, in politics.
30:14 So you can see that in this survey.
30:16 Well, Kate, you are Canadian-Italian, and Canada tops the list for the number one G7
30:21 country.
30:22 But Italy is way down on number 41.
30:25 Well, I think with Italy, one of the key strategies of life is how do we go around the government?
30:30 I think there's a lot of distrust there.
30:32 So a lot of folks have struggled with the poor economic situation in the last couple
30:36 of decades.
30:37 So I can see why they would be lower down the list there, even though it's a beautiful
30:40 country.
30:41 But yeah, it's a struggle.
30:42 What's interesting about Finland as well is that some of the new governments that have
30:46 been voted in, or politicians, are voted in on a platform of maybe reducing the sort of
30:52 social supports for Finnish people.
30:54 So what is happening in Finland, indeed, Finland is going quite a rough period.
30:59 You know, our fiscal balance is not outstanding, and the current government is trying to push
31:04 reforms, and there's a lot of discussion, even tension within the society.
31:09 And the goal is, of course, maintain this Finnish happiness.
31:12 That is the goal.
31:13 But it's a rough ride.
31:15 Finns are mortals, as everyone else.
31:17 And do you think that it's possible to have a little more cohesion from a European perspective,
31:23 like a bit more balance?
31:24 Because we see Italy and Romania quite far down, and Finland way up.
31:28 I mean, it just shows you how disparate European countries are, despite the best efforts, I
31:32 suppose, of Europeans and the Commission and so on.
31:35 Yeah, but that's really the reality of things.
31:37 And this is the citizens talking, and definitely we need to do more on the European level.
31:43 And this is the best argument for more Europe, not less Europe, you know, because people
31:47 are telling us what we need to do.
31:50 OK, more Europe, not less Europe.
31:51 That's definitely another discussion for another day.
31:54 And that point, this part, will come to an end.
31:57 But thank you so much to our panel, Kate Balangaro from MLEX, Tommy Huttanen, the Executive
32:02 Director of the Wilfrid Martin Centre for European Studies, and Vlad Georg, our new
32:06 MEP from Romania.
32:08 As usual, if you have any comments for us, reach out to us at brusselsmylove@euronews.com
32:14 or catch us on social media.
32:16 See you soon.
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