Former Polish President and Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Lech Wałęsa, calls for systemic changes to safeguard democracy and avoid the rise of populist leaders.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00POLISH EMBASSY IN GDAŃSK
00:08When, as an electrician, he stood at the head of the strike in the Gdańsk Shipyard, we said here in Poland that the wind was blowing from the coast from Nowy.
00:15Then came the martial law, and the Peaceful Nobel Prize in his name was won by the wife of Danuta.
00:21Finally, he became the President of Poland.
00:24Icon, legend, Lech Wałęsa.
00:27We could not start our conversation any other way than from the current events in Ukraine.
00:34Mr. President, Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire.
00:37The Americans have proposed its conditions.
00:40Lavrov comments that, yes, a ceasefire, but under the condition that Ukraine will never be armed again.
00:48And, as he says, that the causes of the conflict will be rooted.
00:52The talks are ongoing at the highest level.
00:54How do you see the development of these events?
00:57I hope that some kind of agreement will come out of it.
01:01Now I am afraid that they will force Ukraine to a bad compromise.
01:07Only that again, logically looking at it, it will be a loss of 6 to 10 years, according to my calculations.
01:15And then it will all unfold and return to the right track.
01:21What Ukraine is doing is a result of the development of our civilization.
01:25What Russia and even Trump are doing is a setback.
01:29This is a retreat in development.
01:31That's why these are concepts that are lost.
01:34You are talking about these bad conditions, a bad compromise.
01:37These would be territorial concessions, because this is also what Trump expects from Ukraine.
01:42In the old era, 100 years ago, it was very important.
01:46And now technological development.
01:49The technique says to level the levels and open the borders.
01:53What problems did we have after the victory of Solidarity?
01:57How were they afraid to open the borders?
01:59We only leveled the development.
02:01Actually, there are no borders in Europe.
02:05You can work with a good profession anywhere, in any country.
02:09So I'm not taking an example that we have.
02:14This generation has been given examples in every field of how to do it,
02:20how to avoid misunderstandings and bad solutions.
02:26We just don't see it, we don't draw conclusions.
02:30And you, as a person who here in Poland overthrew communism
02:34and actually led to the fact that we are not in this communist bloc.
02:39After so many years, how do you perceive the fact that we see this division again, East-West,
02:44that there is a dangerous Russia again, which we have to oppose?
02:48From the beginning I said that this generation was destined to live when the eras change.
02:54From the era in which the country was the most important to the end of the 20th century,
02:58due to development, we have to move to management in a few continental and global issues.
03:05These are the challenges of this development.
03:08But to do this, after that dirty era, we have to discuss,
03:14we have to make many attempts, with Kaczynski, Trump and others,
03:19to get rid of good solutions.
03:22So everything that is happening today is a right, but as a training before solutions.
03:28The question is for me as a revolutionary,
03:31if we collect the right solutions, draw conclusions,
03:35we will understand that we have to order this world due to the need for development.
03:42In his time, you convinced Yeltsin here in Warsaw to withdraw the Soviet troops from Poland.
03:48Who would you advise now Zelenski? How should he talk to someone like Putin?
03:53The question is simple, the answer is complicated.
03:58Ladies and gentlemen, there was a moment when Putin actually decided,
04:04after the plane crash, he sympathized and did not show solidarity.
04:11Well, yes, but the Kaczynski's made a bandit out of him.
04:15So he drew such conclusions.
04:18Nevertheless, I want, I'm going in the right direction, and they do it.
04:23And that's why we didn't read those times well.
04:27I would have done it, but I needed a second term.
04:30I would have straightened this case and there would be a different world.
04:34But I lost the elections and everything went differently.
04:38Opponents ruined the case, even with Putin.
04:42Putin had such a moment that he went the right way.
04:47And this is our mistake here, European, not only, Mr. President.
04:52No, because the problem is that people seem to notice that this is a new era,
04:57that you have to take the border, level the levels, but they follow the old way.
05:02Hence, in old thinking, in old solutions, let's even look at what is happening in the world today.
05:09Trump, France, Germany, what is the conclusion for our generation?
05:16Even democracy must be improved, because people do not believe in democracy, do not defend democracy.
05:23I have been preaching for 20 years.
05:25If we do not include these three points in all political programs,
05:31it will get worse and worse and demagogues, populists will win the elections.
05:38This is what is happening now.
05:40And these three points are this.
05:42First of all, even on Putin we have a picture shown.
05:46The leader of a country as great as Russia or China cannot have more than two terms, no longer than five years.
05:56This is not Putin, this is not Stalin, this political system causes banditry.
06:00Knowing all this, why don't we write everywhere that it should be everywhere?
06:04This is the first point.
06:05Everyone who is elected can be recalled.
06:09But in order not to be a mess, you have to take more signatures than he was elected.
06:15And the third point.
06:16Financing literacy.
06:17These three points, this generation should be included in all programs.
06:22Then we will regain people to democracy and to defend democracy.
06:26And if not, then demagogues, populists will set us on fire.
06:30This world here in Europe is already set on fire.
06:33And this democracy must also be defended in a military way.
06:38Europe is consolidating because Trump suggested a little that he would turn away from it.
06:43Are we able to defend ourselves here without Trump, without NATO?
06:48Solidarity gave an example of how to fight and win.
06:51Only everyone forgot.
06:53They started fighting in the old style, tanks, fear, etc.
06:57If we had adopted a similar concept of fighting at that time, we would never have won.
07:02We would never have justified the war.
07:04We would never have joined NATO.
07:06Never.
07:07Even if today we can help Ukraine win, Russia will rise in 10 to 15 years and attack next time.
07:14If we don't help them change the system.
07:17This is not difficult.
07:18You just need to adopt methods in this direction.
07:22So build a civil society there that will be aware.
07:27And in a simple way.
07:28By saying, listen, look how many of your neighbors have already died.
07:33Do you know that Putin is also after you because he has fewer and fewer people?
07:37And you will go to the army tomorrow and you will die in two days.
07:40We want to defend you.
07:41We are not your enemies.
07:43Man, think about it.
07:45Just listen to us.
07:47We will help you change the system, but you have to do it.
07:50And then you will live safely.
07:52Russia is a beautiful country, but it has a bad political system.
08:22The Financial Times writes that there should be an American nuclear weapon here in Poland.
08:27If we go in this direction, we will die like civilizations that have been on this earth several times.
08:33They died the way we propose it.
08:36And that's why, of course, today we have to defend ourselves.
08:39We have to make protective helmets.
08:41But only so that there is a reflection, so that there are systemic changes, etc.
08:49This should be done, not defeat, not victory.
08:52Because there will be no winners here.
08:54We will all be defeated.
08:56Do you see any opinion leader in Europe at the moment?
09:00Angela Merkel was such a person.
09:03European politicians focused around her.
09:05Then she had such aspirations, Emmanuel Macron.
09:07Recently, the British Prime Minister, Kirstarmer.
09:10Is there anyone around whom politicians are ready to focus?
09:14There are quite a few, but so far it is an initial discussion for the future of Europe and the world, for the development of the future.
09:23And at the beginning of such a discussion, there are no such leaders.
09:27But in this discussion, there should be ideas of what we should do and leaders for this new concept.
09:34Really, let's believe, this is a new era.
09:38A different era that requires the reorganization of the world in every field.
09:43Fate has set us such tasks.
09:45Do you feel heard in Europe, in the world?
09:49A little bit, but not quite.
09:51Because, as I say, this is an initial discussion.
09:54And that's why many people want to be in the old system.
09:59They see that it is new, but they behave in the old way.
10:03The state-country ended at the end of the 20th century.
10:08Democracy ended this way.
10:11Churchill's democracy ended at the end of the 20th century.
10:15This generation must start from ...
10:17Exactly, the question is from what?
10:19Should democracy be saved quickly?
10:21But politicians will not agree to this.
10:23Or political parties ...
10:26What does left mean today?
10:28What does right mean?
10:29After all, these are all concepts from a different era.
10:32Not suitable for our times.
10:35Mr. President, it's just about you at the end.
10:38Do you still go fishing?
10:40I don't have much time.
10:42I have a lot of meetings.
10:44I am invited everywhere.
10:46I speak differently.
10:48I have a practical point of view.
10:50At the same time, I am a person who takes the opportunity for accidents.
10:53I learned to take advantage of it.
10:55And here I didn't take advantage of the accident.
10:57We didn't even use Putin in the accident.
11:00There really was a moment when Putin was on the right track.
11:04But if he made him a bandit in the world,
11:07that he made us a plane with the government,
11:11he went in this direction.
11:13If they don't appreciate that I'm trying,
11:16I'm going in the wrong direction.
11:18Therefore, we appreciate it carefully.
11:20First, let's think about what we are doing.
11:23Concepts are needed.
11:25Just to have them, we have to discuss them.
11:28Because after that dirty era, no one believes anyone.
11:31You have to convince me.
11:33I will start building for you.
11:35We are at the moment of conviction.
11:37Is such a choice as Trump or Kaczyński a good choice?
11:40Will we draw conclusions quickly after a year or two?
11:44No, no, no, it's not good.
11:46This generation has to start organizing in almost every field.
11:50Mr. President, thank you very much for the interview.
11:53Thanks.