Matthew Wright debates with two callers over whether the rich should pay more tax.
Caller Daniel reveals he paid over £1 million in tax last year and, while he could afford to pay more, he doesn’t want to.
“Where does it end?” he asks, arguing that he needs his money to reinvest in his businesses. He also warns that wealthy individuals will simply leave the UK if taxed further—something Matthew dismisses. “If they want to leave, then let them… Bye,” he stresses.
Next, caller David suggests that ordinary people could contribute a little more instead, but Matthew pushes back, insisting the wealthy shouldn’t be “immune” from paying their fair share.
“All you’re doing is making excuses,” he tells David.
Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive
#matthewwright #ukpolitics #LBC #labour #keirstarmer #tax
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
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Caller Daniel reveals he paid over £1 million in tax last year and, while he could afford to pay more, he doesn’t want to.
“Where does it end?” he asks, arguing that he needs his money to reinvest in his businesses. He also warns that wealthy individuals will simply leave the UK if taxed further—something Matthew dismisses. “If they want to leave, then let them… Bye,” he stresses.
Next, caller David suggests that ordinary people could contribute a little more instead, but Matthew pushes back, insisting the wealthy shouldn’t be “immune” from paying their fair share.
“All you’re doing is making excuses,” he tells David.
Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive
#matthewwright #ukpolitics #LBC #labour #keirstarmer #tax
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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NewsTranscript
00:00What does Chris have to say in Whitney Oxfordshire? Morning, Chris.
00:03Yeah, morning, Matthew. I like your programme, I enjoy it. I thought Thomas made a lot of sense.
00:08Earlier on, I did take issue with the comment you made about a more equitable tax system being
00:13required, and earlier a caller saying, make the wealthy pay more. I'm one of those people who pay
00:19rather, like Thomas, an enormous amount of tax. I pay, actually, rather more than Thomas. I paid
00:22over a million pounds last year. And I'm afraid... Thank you. Thank you for that.
00:28Well, thank you. I'm very glad to help, but actually, only to a certain extent,
00:33because after a while, it becomes quite boring paying an enormous amount of tax and having
00:37endless people coming on saying we should pay more. Because the point is, you come up against
00:42a hard reality. People like me don't really want to pay any more than a million pounds.
00:46We could pay more, but where does it end? You carry on paying forever. More and more people
00:51don't work. More and more boring. Can I just... So, in my glory days on TV,
00:56I didn't quite pay a million pounds in tax, but I earned a lot of money. And one of the things
01:00that I found, and this is probably more relevant to our discussion on billionaires to come,
01:04is that after a certain point, the money just sort of rolled in. I wasn't spending it. I didn't need
01:10it. I had a nice house, a nice car, everything. I could afford anything. I just have no problems
01:17in life. And when I start thinking about people that are earning like super money, I just think,
01:22what are they spending it on? Why is it problematic to pay a significant sum in tax
01:27when you almost can't spend the residual that's left over because you have so much of it?
01:32I'll explain. It's actually quite simple. What you're talking about is earning money. So,
01:37once you're earning a lot of money, yes, you've got a nice house, you've got two cars,
01:41you've gone on lots of holidays. You're earning even more. You don't actually need it. But
01:45for businessmen like me, who haven't actually got a salary at all, and I don't even...
01:51Oh, so you're talking about your money you paid in tax through corporations.
01:54Well, no, but it's a question. I'm a businessman, and I want to be able to grow my businesses,
01:59employ more people, start new businesses, do stuff. So, I don't have money left over. In fact,
02:04I'm always trying to borrow money. No matter how much money you make, I'm reinvesting it in
02:09businesses, hiring people, having new ideas, doing stuff. Yes, sure, if I was an employee
02:15on the million pounds a year, I mean, you can't spend them, but you can spend a million pounds.
02:19You don't need 10 million pounds. You don't need 20 million pounds. If you're a businessman,
02:23you do, because you're always trying to get bigger and better.
02:25Point taken. Can I just... because the point's well made, and I accept it. Can I ask you how...
02:33what your approach is to Rachel Reeves and the fiscal rules, which I would argue were invented
02:39to make, originally in the 90s, invented to make labour look financially responsible.
02:44But if you're in a time of international crisis, or time of crisis,
02:48should labour be prepared to surrender what appears to be a sort of luxury of politics?
02:55Yeah, absolutely. But I'm not an economist, but essentially, it's all about spending,
03:00borrowing, tax and growth. The whole thing works. The economy works in a very similar way as a
03:05business, and exactly the same way as private individuals. Private individuals earn money,
03:09and they spend money. And if you spend more than you earn, then it doesn't work. And if you go out
03:14and borrow, eventually the bank says, you can't borrow any more. And the problem of government
03:18has exactly the same way around. So we're taxing as much as we can, because people like me are
03:24going to say, well, do you know what? No, thanks. I'm going to go and live somewhere else, because
03:26it's easily done. It's really easy. I've got a house of board. I could just go there tomorrow,
03:31pay less tax, and then grow my business as more. Or the government can borrow more money,
03:36but it can't borrow much more money, because it's already pretty well at the top. And the
03:40bond markets then take fright, and then you pay interest on the loan, and that gets worse. And
03:44that's just like a family. Or you can reduce your spending, just like a family. And I'm afraid the
03:49only way to get out of this sort of the doom lupin moment is to reduce our spending.
03:54You see, on that score, Chris, we've been reducing our spending since 1980.
03:59And I don't understand how our services, which are already broken. Birmingham City
04:04Council can't clear up its litter. There are so many areas that are broken. I know quite a few
04:11disabled people. The idea that they are coining it in on benefits is just a total lie. It's a
04:18nonsense. But we have got people. We have got people with enormous amounts of wealth who may
04:23not be doing it for growing businesses. They could be like Jeff Bezos, wasting it flying around in
04:26space for fun, while people like nurses in this country, through their taxes, make up the wages
04:31of Amazon workers. So it is not an equitable system. It could be more equitable.
04:37Well, that's what I'm saying. Leave equity aside. Whether you think it's fair if somebody
04:42pays a million pounds in tax, somebody pays no tax at all, that's up to you.
04:45But a million pounds in tax is fair if it's relative to the earnings, isn't it? It's all
04:49relative. A million pounds in tax sounds like a lot of money compared to somebody who pays nothing.
04:53But if it's a million pound tax on a hundred million pounds of income, it's nothing at
04:56the equities. That's not really the issue. This is what I'm trying to explain. It's not the issue
05:00because it comes up against reality. Because yes, you may think it's fair or unfair. It doesn't
05:05matter. Yes, it's fair. Somebody's got a billion pounds. Let's go and take a hundred million.
05:10Whatever you think about it. But the reality is that you won't be able to because he's going to
05:14go. That's the point. It doesn't matter whether you think it's right or wrong.
05:19They say they're going to go. They say they're going to go. And I have to say, I'm very much
05:23with those brothers and sisters listening now who feel that if people who don't want to spend
05:26their money in this country just sit on it, want to leave this country because they don't pay any
05:30tax, well, good luck to them. Bye. Enjoy your life because you're not really contributing to
05:34the problem here in the UK. That's the issue. We need to liberate that cash. We need to fund
05:41a war effort. And so far, the only thing I can see on the agenda is going after people
05:45who are in danger of urinating themselves, the disabled, which doesn't seem like
05:49much of a plan to me. But I do appreciate that very strong line about using the money to grow
05:56business, because the backdrop of all of this conversation is that the entire labour programme,
06:01regardless of Putin and Ukraine, the entire labour programme was based, was going to be funded by
06:06growth. And that growth at present is non-existent. And perhaps Chris is right. You know, there's
06:11maybe not enough incentive for growth with so much being taken away in tax. I don't know.
06:16You keep going on about raising tax, but the point about raising tax is it reduces demand
06:21in the economy and therefore growth will be less likely. And Britain and capitalist countries are
06:26based in demand. So just slow down a bit. So just all I hear from people with this point of view
06:32is basically the poorest people in the country can continue to contribute, but the wealthiest
06:36shouldn't be asked to pay any more. No, no, actually, that's a brilliant point. But my counter
06:42to that is why don't you also look at the middle class and people? Look, our standard of living,
06:47Britain, for most people is reasonable. So can't they just pay a bit more tax as well?
06:51We're not going to go starving. But why not the super rich? Why are they immune?
06:56Matthew, we can all take responsibility. I'm from a poor country.
06:59Okay, so we can all take responsibility, but you don't want the rich to. Yeah, but I'm just
07:03asking, when are you going to mention the rich? But the point is getting, it's not about fairness,
07:09it's about practicality. A lot of people in this country could afford to pay more tax and they'd
07:14still be living reasonably well. The royal family, for example. My family? No, the royal family,
07:20that only pay tax if they want to. I think we as a country as a whole need to take more responsibility
07:25and say we will pay more tax. I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting it. So why don't the royal family pay
07:29more tax? Why don't the super rich pay more tax? But that doesn't exclude that middle class people
07:33can pay more as well. But we're already under the highest tax burden. We still have a brilliant
07:38standard of living, Matthew. Not as brilliant as the super rich, my friend, who aren't being
07:43asked to pay anything extra. It's not, it's not binary, Matthew. We could be both. You say it's
07:48not binary. I say let's give it a chance to be binary. Just once, let's tax the rich. Matthew,
07:53it's been tried before and the rich always find this loops to get out of it. It's been proven
07:58that when you raise taxes, quite often the revenues go down from the rich. Ever been to Finland? Norway?
08:03Scandinavia? They have a different culture. Oh, it's a different culture. A culture where they pay
08:09more tax and they have a higher quality of life. That kind of different culture. Matthew, I would
08:14love to be idealistic. I'm trying to be practical. I'm not being idealistic. I'm talking about
08:18countries and their happiness rating. And if you look at the happiest countries in the world,
08:23they are all virtually in Scandinavia and they all have a high tax system and a large state.
08:28It's just quite interesting. Well, tell that to the average person in Britain, see what your
08:31reply is going to be. I'm trying, David, but you say that you just say the middle classes should
08:35pay more and you don't have any thoughts on the rich paying more. I do. But the point,
08:39the difficulty with them is they have all these accountants to get them out of paying
08:43and therefore it's very hard to get to get. So it's hard. So we don't try. Well, it's been
08:49tried and quite often when you do it, the revenues fall because they find even more
08:53tricky ways of getting out of paying the tax. I'm left leaning, but I've been trying to be
08:57very hard headed about this. And honestly, it's not going to work when you try and tax the rich.
09:02You would be happy to see, say, a pit payment removed on someone who needs telling to go to
09:07the toilet. No, no, no, no. I said the average person has a reasonable standard of living.
09:12If they pay one P more in tax, that would be brilliant. And it's about us all getting
09:16together, not just saying the rich have to pay, which they really should be. But we all have to
09:20take responsibility. So you're aware of pay ratios. So you're aware of pay ratios. So in the
09:251970s, the average FTSE 100 boss earned about 35 times more than the lowest paid worker in their
09:30organisation. It's over 200 times now. So so whilst I'm I'm hearing what you're saying about
09:37tax, what we what you're what you're not hearing is the rich have been getting richer, much richer
09:42year after year after year, and they're not spending any of it back into the country.
09:47And all people come up with you, David, is excuses, no excuses for going after people who
09:52might urinate because they're having their benefits cut, literally wet themselves. No
09:56excuses for them. They can they can be made to pay. But when it comes to the rich,
10:00all you've offered, David, is excuses.