French Minister for European Affairs, Benjamin Haddad, tells Euronews that Europe must seize this historic moment to strengthen its military independence, particularly in light of the Trump administration's decision to withdraw military aid and intelligence from Ukraine.
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00:00This week on the Europe Conversation on Euronews, I catch up with French EU Affairs Minister
00:12Benjamin Haddad, and I ask him whether Europe can supply security guarantees for Ukraine
00:18without a US backstop. He also discusses why France is ready to extend its nuclear guarantees
00:24to the rest of Europe.
00:26Minister, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:31Thanks for having me.
00:32I just want to start off with where we are right now, what your assessment is. President
00:37Macron saying that he's willing to extend nuclear deterrent guarantees for the course
00:41of Europe. We also have leaders in Poland and Latvia saying they're going to train men
00:47of military age, talking about conscription. We're really entering a new era.
00:53We have the questions arising from the United States about the future of the transatlantic
00:57relationship, and this is a moment for us to take our destiny into our own hands. We've
01:04been seeing in the last few years, the last few decades, Europeans sliding behind when
01:09it comes to defence, when it comes to tech, investment in AI or quantum, when it comes
01:14to industry. And this is a moment where we can come together, unite, invest massively
01:22into our strategic autonomy through defence.
01:25What is your assessment of what Donald Trump, the actions of the White House in relation
01:28to Ukraine, stopping the military intelligence which has been exploited and also stopping
01:33weapons?
01:34I think they go against even the interest of the United States. How could it be in the
01:39interest of the United States to give a victory to Putin, to show capitulation in Ukraine?
01:45What kind of message would that send to China and to other competitors? And if you allow
01:51me to take a step back on this, the truth is we've seen a longer-term trend in the last
01:5610, 15 years from the United States. It's President Obama who talked about Europeans
02:01being free riders, who did not respect the red line in Syria. It's the first term of
02:08President Trump, we already talked about trade conflicts or defence spending. And even under
02:14the Biden administration, which in the tone was much more sympathetic, of course, we had
02:18the unilateral withdrawal from Afghanistan that was done without coordination with allies
02:23like Germany and Britain who were on the ground. We had AUKUS, the submarine crisis with France,
02:31and we had the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, a massive protectionist programme which
02:35amplified everything the Trump administration was doing on protectionism without any coordination
02:41with the Europeans. So you see these trends of the US focusing on itself, focusing on
02:47Asia, protectionist trends, you know, leaving the WTO, for example, at the expense of Europeans.
02:56So we need to see the writing on the wall.
02:59But it looks like that the United States hasn't called for Putin or Russia to make any concessions
03:04while President Zelensky is expected to sign this minerals deal.
03:08You're completely right. We need to continue to increase the pressure on Russia. No negotiation
03:12about the security of Ukraine can be done without Ukrainians, and no negotiation about
03:17the security of Europe can be done without Europeans. And Europeans will play a key role
03:23in any form of security guarantee in the long run, and this is why we need to be around
03:29the table.
03:29But we don't have any guarantee, and it's not likely to be forthcoming in relation to
03:33a backstop from the United States. I mean, President Macron had a very cordial meeting
03:38with President Trump a short time ago, but nothing substantial emerged from it. Can Europe
03:43defend Ukraine so there isn't a Minsk I, Minsk II situation without a backstop from the United
03:49States?
03:49This is why we continue our dialogue with the United States on the need for the US to
03:55stay committed to the security of Ukraine, because once again, it is not sending a message
03:59of force to other competitors in the US if you lead to a situation where Russia can just
04:04rearm and re-attack Ukraine. It would be not in the interest, of course, of Europeans
04:09and Ukrainians, but not in the interest of the US either.
04:12But can Europe do it? I mean, we're talking about a short time ahead, potentially, because
04:16Donald Trump is putting huge pressure on President Zelensky to come to the table. He says that
04:20Putin wants to end it. He wants this to be over. He wants to pivot to China and so on.
04:27So can Europe do it without a backstop from the United States?
04:31Look, at the very least, I can tell you that this is why President Macron has asked the
04:36government and other European governments are looking at stepping up our support for
04:41Ukraine and replacing the support from the United States, because once again, it is the
04:46security of Europe that is being played in Ukraine and stepping up also on security guarantees
04:51while keeping our dialogue with the United States.
04:53So potentially looking at Europe doing it without the United States, if it has to be?
04:58Not speculating on scenarios in the long run, because we're keeping our dialogue with
05:02the United States. Once again, it's our security interest on both sides that's at play. But
05:08this is also why you see Europeans stepping up both on the support of Ukraine and in defense
05:12of Europe.
05:13And in relation to troops on the ground, would they be potentially deterrent troops, not
05:17just peacekeeping troops?
05:18Well, look, the question is, once again, if you have tomorrow a ceasefire, you need to
05:24be able to have a force to be able to preserve it, a peacekeeping force, if you will. So
05:32this is where Europeans will have to take their responsibility. We are ready to do so.
05:36We've already said so with other able and willing partners. You've heard the Prime Minister
05:41of the United Kingdom already talk about deployment of a contingent. Of course, not to fight war.
05:47We always need to underscore this. But to be able to keep the peace on the ground in
05:53the long run. And this is a discussion that's being held right now among allies.
05:57Okay. I want to ask you about that extraordinary offer or announcement by President Macron
06:02about France extending its nuclear deterrence throughout Europe. What does this mean exactly?
06:09Is that the European Union? Is it the whole of Europe? Is it Ukraine? Is it within NATO?
06:13Of course, the French nuclear deterrent will always stay sovereign in the sovereign decision
06:18of the head of state of the French Republic. So it's no question, of course, of sharing
06:23the use of the nuclear deterrent, the nuclear button, if you will. With that being said,
06:30French presidents ever since General de Gaulle, actually the founder of the French nuclear
06:34deterrent, have always said that French nuclear deterrent is here to protect the vital interest
06:42of the French nation. And these vital interests have a European dimension. Of course, when
06:47our neighbors and our allies in Europe are attacked, it has an impact on the French vital
06:52interest. So what President Macron has said is that he wants to open a conversation with
06:56partners who want it. And he said this actually for the last few years, this is not something
07:01new, about how the French nuclear deterrent can contribute to the security of European
07:08partners. It's been striking to see that the next chancellor of Germany, Frédéric Merz,
07:15is actually quite forthcoming in a recent statement saying that he wants to have this
07:19conversation. This is something very important to us.
07:23So it could potentially, though, include Ukraine, for example?
07:26I think let's see where that could go. But at the very least, having this conversation
07:31with Germany and other countries in Europe.
07:34And I want to talk to you about defense as well and investment, because obviously that
07:37is something that each country is really having to put money in towards and taking out of
07:41their exchequer. In France, in particular, you have a very good social system, a very
07:46strong social system that's coveted across the world. Where would that money be coming
07:51from for all this major investment from France?
07:54There's a few responses to your question. First, about what we can do at the European
07:58level. So the European Commission, just on Thursday, announced a series of measures to
08:05relax budgetary rules to make it easier for member states to be able to invest in defense.
08:13That's already a major step and that's something that we had been advocating alongside partners
08:16in Europe for a long time. Then a loan from the European Commission, 150 billion euros,
08:22to member states when they invest in the capabilities that I was mentioning earlier, where we are
08:27lagging. You have the possibility of creating euro bonds, borrowing money. Look, we did
08:33it during the COVID crisis, right? We've benefited for decades from what we call the
08:39peace dividends, which basically that we could invest in our domestic politics when the United
08:45States was taking care of our security. To be fair, in France, a little less so than
08:50elsewhere because we have our nuclear deterrent and because we have constantly invested in
08:54defense. But yes, we will have to make budgetary decisions. And this is the conversation we're
09:00having in France right now about how we can increase our defense budget while keeping
09:06investors, so not raising taxes, keeping our companies here, keeping investors. Does that
09:12mean working more? If you look at the amount of time worked in France compared to other
09:18European countries, we're slightly behind.
09:21Is France ready for that discussion? Because we know that domestically, from a political
09:24perspective, everybody's quite divided. You have the rise of far-right parties and so
09:30on, serious problems getting the budget passed recently.
09:34It will have to be a moment of responsibility for everyone. We see the world around us.
09:38And I think the French are very lucid, very conscious about the world that is changing.
09:43Just before I let you go, Minister, just two more questions. First of all, do you think
09:47that this decision by President Macron to extend nuclear guarantees to Europe will bring
09:52France under the threat of Russia? Because we know the Russians have said that this announcement
09:57threatens them. And second of all, one of the things that you've spoken about is the
10:01decades of Europeans buying U.S. weapons. And you said you have concerns before that
10:07these could become immobilized.
10:09First I would say, if you allow me to answer quickly your second question, Russia is already
10:14a threat to France and to Europe. We see cyberattacks. We see foreign interference. We see Russia
10:20going after our interest and influence elsewhere. We see the incredible pressure we've seen
10:26on democracies like Romania or Moldova. We see, of course, the aggression against Ukraine.
10:33Through Ukraine, we know that Russia is going after the European security architecture and
10:38that it's targeted France also repeatedly.
10:41To your question on the industry, it's a very important point because we support the notion
10:46of the European preference for funding for our European defense industry. Because the
10:52only way to have an autonomous European defense industry is to make sure that you have the
10:58control of the technology, so you have the technological know-how. Look at just the debates
11:03we had over the long-range missiles sent to Ukraine. If you have American components and
11:09Americans decide that they can't do deep strike to be able to defend themselves against Russian
11:13targets, they can control the use, even though the European countries that will want Ukrainians
11:19to be able to do so have agreed to it. So there is the question of control of use. There's
11:24the question of technology. And I would even say, if you want to make the case also that
11:31we need to increase our defense budget in the long run, politically, you also need to
11:36show that it trickles down in terms of reindustrialization, in terms of factories, in terms of job, not
11:42that it's funding defense factories in Kentucky or Pennsylvania. I think it's a fair point.
11:49Okay, Benjamin Haddad, Minister for European Affairs and Fronts, thank you very much for
11:52joining us in the Europe Conversation.
11:54Thank you very much.