The Senate Small Business Committee held a hearing to consider the nominations of William Briggs to be Deputy Administrator of the Small Business Administration and Dr. Casey Mulligan to be Chief Counsel for Advocacy at the Small Business Administration.
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00I call the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship to order.
00:00:04The purpose of today's hearing is to consider two of President Trump's nominees.
00:00:10First we have Mr. Bill Briggs to serve as Deputy Administrator of the Small Business
00:00:15Administration and our second nominee is Dr. Casey Mulligan to serve as the Chief Counsel
00:00:21for Advocacy of SBA's Office of Advocacy.
00:00:25I'd like to welcome you both here today and thank you very much for your willingness to
00:00:29serve.
00:00:31Just to give folks a quick run of show, I'm going to make brief opening statements, then
00:00:36I'll turn to Ranking Member Markey to do the same, then I will introduce the nominees and
00:00:41will administer the oath.
00:00:43After the oath, Mr. Briggs and then Dr. Mulligan will be recognized for their statements.
00:00:49These statements will be followed by questions from our members alternating between each
00:00:54side.
00:00:55I now recognize myself for five minutes for the purposes of an opening statement.
00:01:00Again, welcome to the Committee and thank you Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan for your willingness
00:01:05to serve in these roles.
00:01:07Today we are considering nominees for two very important positions.
00:01:11I greatly appreciate the time you've spent meeting with me and my colleagues prior to
00:01:15this hearing.
00:01:16I want to take a minute to recognize some of the family and friends here supporting
00:01:20you both today.
00:01:23Just raise your hand when I read your name please.
00:01:27First I want to recognize some of Mr. Briggs' family, his parents Dodie and Bill, thank
00:01:32you for being here, as well as his siblings Susan, Robert, Ted, and his nephew Brayden.
00:01:42Thank you all for being here.
00:01:43And then for Dr. Mulligan, I would like to welcome your wife Julia, thank you Julia,
00:01:49and three of your five children, John, Elizabeth, which is also my daughter's name, thank you,
00:01:57and Maeve.
00:01:58Hi Maeve, thank you.
00:01:59We appreciate you all making the trip here.
00:02:02I appreciate that you both have fully embraced the Committee's standard yet extensive vetting
00:02:07of your experiences and backgrounds in advance of today's hearing and our upcoming vote on
00:02:13our nominations.
00:02:15As I've shared with both of you, I believe substantial reforms must be made to get the
00:02:19SBA back in shape and that is going to require strong leadership.
00:02:24I am thrilled with Administrator Loeffler's actions so far, but she will need a strong
00:02:29partner and that is why the Deputy Administrator role is so critical.
00:02:34Traditionally, SBA administers programs and services falling into three main buckets,
00:02:41counseling, contracting, and access to capital.
00:02:45Mr. Briggs, previously you worked at SBA during the critical implementation of the
00:02:50Paycheck Protection Program.
00:02:52These funds were vital to ensuring Main Street business across America kept their doors open
00:02:58during the pandemic.
00:02:59Unfortunately, there has been fraud in SBA's programs, especially in the COVID Economic
00:03:05Injury Disaster Loan or EIDL program, and I want to know how you will continue to work
00:03:11with me to root out these fraudsters.
00:03:14Small businesses needed help and American taxpayers provided it, but it is completely
00:03:19unacceptable that bad actors took advantage of this emergency assistance.
00:03:25Even more alarming, the federal government hasn't held these criminals accountable.
00:03:29But that must change, so I look forward to hearing how you will recoup these funds.
00:03:34As you know well, COVID recovery is not the only challenge small businesses faced over
00:03:38the last five years.
00:03:40In my home state of Iowa, small businesses are the lifeblood of our rural communities,
00:03:46and for too long they've been crushed with red tape and burdensome and often unnecessary
00:03:51reporting requirements, with no one caring about how that affects day-to-day operations.
00:03:58This brings me to the role of the Chief Counsel for Advocacy.
00:04:02Dr. Mulligan, I am impressed with your background and extensive work to ensure economic analysis
00:04:08properly reflects the costs to small businesses.
00:04:12The cost of regulations for small businesses is out of control.
00:04:16The last administration promulgated more than 1,100 final rules, costing $1.8 trillion.
00:04:26The Biden administration's regulatory costs were 600 times higher than that of the first
00:04:32Trump administration, and 3.7 times higher than that of the Obama administration.
00:04:39I have been encouraged by President Trump's executive orders to freeze and roll back regulations.
00:04:45This to me shows a clear understanding of the need to evaluate the effects, both direct
00:04:50and indirect, that government regulation is having on America's economic growth.
00:04:57That said, advocacy's role remains true, regardless of party, to ensure that a strong
00:05:02chief counsel stands up for the little guy and warns regulators when small firms will
00:05:07be harmed.
00:05:09I have introduced the PROVE IT Act again this Congress, which requires agencies to consider
00:05:14both the direct and indirect costs placed on small businesses when promulgating regulations.
00:05:20It also creates a process where small entities and representative organizations can ask advocacy
00:05:27to formally review an agency's certification of a rule and prove it is fully compliant
00:05:34with the law.
00:05:35I want to ensure that agencies respect and adhere to the existing laws and give advocacy
00:05:41further tools to dissuade federal bureaucrats from making poor decisions that harm small
00:05:47businesses.
00:05:48This is why advocacy needs a confirmed chief counsel, and I am pleased that the President
00:05:53acted swiftly with this nomination.
00:05:56I want to thank you both for being here, and I look forward to your testimony.
00:06:01I now recognize Ranking Member Markey for his opening statement.
00:06:05Thank you, Madam Chair, very much.
00:06:07The Small Business Administration is intended to support small businesses by providing capital
00:06:14contracts and counseling.
00:06:17But so far, Trump's SBA only produced closures and cuts and chaos.
00:06:23Across the federal government, Elon Musk's army of unelected bureaucrats is taking a
00:06:28chainsaw to agencies cutting contracts and breaking promises.
00:06:34About a quarter of all canceled contracts were to small businesses in our country.
00:06:41Presidents already cut contracts with small businesses all across our country, many of
00:06:45which were owned by women and people in minority groups.
00:06:49The Veterans Affairs Administration also announced $2 billion in contract cancellations, including
00:06:57some to veteran-owned and service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses.
00:07:03Meanwhile, DOJ has barely touched the largest government contractors, who were responsible
00:07:09for more than $200 billion in federal contract spending last year.
00:07:15$2 billion?
00:07:16They're all over that.
00:07:18Those are the smaller companies.
00:07:19$200 billion?
00:07:20The big defense contractors?
00:07:21They can't find any fraud.
00:07:22Well, we know there's waste and fraud all over those contracts, if you're going to be
00:07:26honest about it.
00:07:28As SBA specifically, Musk minions who have no government experience and zero small business
00:07:35understanding, they've already fired 720 employees at the SBA.
00:07:39Twenty percent of the workforce has already been laid off.
00:07:43This includes those focused on disaster recovery, such as victims in North Carolina and California.
00:07:51As these small businesses seek to rebuild, they're laying off the SBA personnel who would
00:07:56be able to hear them, listen to their claims.
00:07:59DOJ is also closing SBA district offices to cut costs, including in Springfield, Massachusetts.
00:08:06We had a witness here from Springfield, Massachusetts, just three weeks ago.
00:08:09Well, they're closed on that office now, where that would have been processed.
00:08:14This will make it harder for local small business owners to get help from a real-life human
00:08:19being.
00:08:20On top of this, SBA also announced they would relocate six regional offices, including the
00:08:25Boston location, over unfounded immigration issues.
00:08:32Administrator Loeffler has not provided Congress with any information about these activities.
00:08:37We don't know who has been fired.
00:08:39We don't know which offices will remain open.
00:08:41We certainly don't know how many small businesses have been left without services because of
00:08:46these sudden, unprecedented slash-and-burn tactics.
00:08:52Today the committee is meeting to consider the nominations of Mr. Bill Briggs to be SBA
00:08:57Deputy Administrator, and Dr. Casey Mulligan to be Chief Counsel at SBA's Office of Advocacy.
00:09:04Mr. Briggs served as the Acting Associate Administrator during the first Trump administration
00:09:08and worked on the Paycheck Protection Program in 2020, which provided needed relief to American
00:09:15small businesses during the pandemic and serves as a shining example of what Congress can
00:09:19do when we work together.
00:09:21Traditionally, Mr. Briggs would report to the SBA Administrator and carry out day-to-day
00:09:27operations.
00:09:28But until this committee gets answers about DOJ's operations at SBA, I believe considering
00:09:35this nominee is premature.
00:09:38Senator Shaheen requested a briefing on DOJ inside the SBA in this committee four weeks
00:09:44ago, just so the committee can understand what's going on.
00:09:49And I'm disappointed that the Trump administration still has not complied.
00:09:52We haven't had any DOJ people come in to brief us.
00:09:55What are they doing inside the SBA?
00:09:57We're the Committee of Jurisdiction.
00:09:59We're the committee that created it.
00:10:01Will DOJ please tell us what they're doing?
00:10:04Next, we're considering Dr. Casey Mulligan.
00:10:06Dr. Mulligan has been nominated to oversee the Office of Advocacy, an independent agency
00:10:12within SBA charged with advancing the views, concerns, and interests of small businesses
00:10:17before the federal government.
00:10:19The beauty of this office is its independence.
00:10:22It is statutorily required to operate separately, not only from SBA, but from the White House.
00:10:29That's statutorily.
00:10:30However, DOJ has already infiltrated the Office of Advocacy and threatened its independent
00:10:36status.
00:10:37Separately, I am concerned about Dr. Mulligan's potential approach to this role.
00:10:41Dr. Mulligan is an economist at the University of Chicago, a widely respected institution.
00:10:47But based on his work, I believe his views about regulations lie far outside the mainstream.
00:10:54He questions policies most Americans take for granted, a minimum wage, paid sick leave,
00:10:59reasonable limits on pollution, and rules that prevent insurers from discriminating
00:11:03against people with pre-existing conditions.
00:11:06Without such policies, we would be taken back to a Dickensian world with no worker,
00:11:12environmental, patient, or consumer protections.
00:11:15Regardless of who is president, every entrepreneur should be able to rely on SBA to help them
00:11:21start and grow their business.
00:11:23We must return to this principle and be dependable for the 34 million American small businesses
00:11:30that run our country.
00:11:33I do not think that is the goal which Elon Musk and President Trump have for our country.
00:11:40So Madam Chair, I yield back.
00:11:43Thank you, Ranking Member Markey.
00:11:45And as noted by Senator Markey, on February 12th at our hearing, Senator Shaheen did request
00:11:52an update from DOJ at the SBA, and I have made that request.
00:11:57The two gentlemen in front of us today, though, are not part of the SBA yet.
00:12:03We hope to confirm them very soon.
00:12:06But we have made the request, Senator Markey, and hopefully we will have a DOJ briefing
00:12:10soon for the committee members.
00:12:13But I would like to now take a minute to introduce both of our nominees.
00:12:18And first, we will start with Mr. William Briggs, who is the nominee for Deputy Administrator
00:12:23of the SBA.
00:12:25Originally from New York, Mr. Briggs currently lives in Austin, Texas, where he acts as the
00:12:31Director of Regulatory and Federal Advocacy for the Independent Bankers Association of
00:12:36Texas.
00:12:37Previously, he served as the Acting Associated Administrator in the SBA's Office of Capital
00:12:44Access and was instrumental in the rollout of PPP during the first Trump administration.
00:12:50Mr. Briggs also served as the Director for the Office of Public Outreach in the U.S.
00:12:56National Protection Agency under President George W. Bush.
00:13:00Additionally, Mr. Briggs has owned two small business consulting firms.
00:13:04Mr. Briggs received his undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan.
00:13:09And next, we have Dr. Casey Mulligan, who is the nominee for Chief Counsel for Advocacy.
00:13:15Dr. Mulligan grew up in Illinois and is currently a professor at the University of Chicago,
00:13:21specializing in labor economics, public policy, and the impacts of regulation on economic
00:13:27behavior.
00:13:29During the prior Trump administration, he served as Chief Economist for the White House
00:13:33Council of Economic Advisers, where he played a key role in important policy discussions.
00:13:39Dr. Mulligan also owns two small businesses, focusing on consulting and economic research.
00:13:47Dr. Mulligan received his Bachelor of Arts from Harvard University and earned his Ph.D.
00:13:52in Economics from the University of Chicago.
00:13:55Again, we thank both nominee's families and friends for being here today.
00:13:59Now, Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan, if you would both rise, please.
00:14:03It is the tradition of our committee to swear in our nominees.
00:14:08So please raise your right hand and answer the following questions.
00:14:13Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth?
00:14:16The whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
00:14:21Should you be confirmed as Deputy Administrator of the SBA and Chief Counsel for Advocacy
00:14:27at SBA?
00:14:28Are you willing to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress
00:14:34when requested to do so?
00:14:37Are you willing to provide such information as is requested by any such committee?
00:14:44Thank you both very much.
00:14:45You may take your seats.
00:14:50So very briefly, I'd like to take a moment to explain our lighting system that is right
00:14:55in front of you.
00:14:56There are three lights.
00:14:58Green means go, yellow means you're running out of time, and red means to go ahead and
00:15:05wrap up your remarks.
00:15:07And I ask unanimous consent that the nominee's full statements be included in the record
00:15:12without objection, so ordered.
00:15:14As your written testimony has been made part of the record, the committee asks that you
00:15:18limit your oral remarks to five minutes.
00:15:21Mr. Briggs, you are now recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
00:15:27Thank you, Chair Ernst, and thank you, Ranking Member Markey and distinguished members of
00:15:32the committee.
00:15:33My name is Bill Briggs, and it is a great honor to appear before you today as President
00:15:38Trump's nominee for Deputy Administrator of the Small Business Administration.
00:15:43I am grateful to President Trump for offering me the opportunity to again serve America's
00:15:4734 million small businesses, which are the backbone of our economy, the lifeblood of
00:15:52our communities, and the engine of innovation and prosperity.
00:15:56As goes small business in this country, so goes our nation.
00:16:00I'd like to briefly acknowledge my friends and family who are here today, including my
00:16:03parents Bill and Dodie.
00:16:07I would also like to thank Administrator Loeffler for her support.
00:16:11There is no stronger advocate for American small businesses, and already SBA is seeing
00:16:17a restoration under her leadership.
00:16:19Finally, I want to thank God for everything, especially the challenges which make me rely
00:16:24on him.
00:16:26During President Trump's first term, our nation's economy was the envy of the world.
00:16:30Job creators and job seekers alike were empowered, driving small business formation and a blue-collar
00:16:34boom.
00:16:35Through historic tax cuts, fair trade deals, and deregulation, his agenda had created 7
00:16:40million new jobs, delivered historically low poverty, and record employment for minority
00:16:46communities.
00:16:47Indeed, small business optimism has surged since the November election because America's
00:16:51entrepreneurs know help is on the way.
00:16:54If confirmed, this will be my third time as a presidential appointee, and Administrator
00:16:58Loeffler will be the fourth cabinet-level administrator that I will have had the opportunity
00:17:03to serve.
00:17:04During my prior service at SBA, I oversaw the day-to-day operations of the Paycheck
00:17:08Protection Program, which helped to save 11 million small business jobs.
00:17:13I hope to leverage a wealth of institutional knowledge and lessons that will enable me
00:17:18to hit the ground running if confirmed.
00:17:21I bring to the role over two decades of public service and private sector experience.
00:17:25My first job out of college was in state government working on Veterans Affairs and local economic
00:17:29development issues.
00:17:32From there, I've served in senior roles at industry trade associations, interspersed
00:17:35with two presidential appointments.
00:17:38During the last Trump administration, I served as the Acting Associate Administrator in the
00:17:42Office of Capital Access, where I oversaw all SBA lending programs.
00:17:47I also served as an advisor to the Administrator on Engaging Small Businesses during this crucial
00:17:52time in the agency's history.
00:17:54Finally, I led internal agency reform efforts, including the SBA field alignment and rebranding
00:18:00initiatives launched under then-Administrator Linda McMahon.
00:18:05Like many Americans, my belief in the power of small business is personal.
00:18:09My family is steeped in service to our country as much as a spirit of entrepreneurship.
00:18:15Both of my grandfathers served in World War II, and my mother, who is here today, was
00:18:18an Army nurse, and two of my brothers served overseas in our armed forces.
00:18:25Two of my sisters currently run a small business today, and I have owned and operated two small
00:18:30businesses myself.
00:18:32My sister Katie owns a small landscape design company and often shares how excessive regulations,
00:18:38including extensive environmental permits, take up her time, drive up her equipment costs,
00:18:43and hamper her ability to serve her clients.
00:18:46She is forced to either cut back on employees, reduce her services, or cut into her own bottom
00:18:50line.
00:18:51Her story is the story of millions of small businesses who have been put under the enormous
00:18:56strain over the last four years with excessive regulation, crushing inflation, and big government
00:19:02bureaucracy.
00:19:04Our private sector hiring, though beginning to recover on President Trump, has declined
00:19:08for over a year.
00:19:10And if we are to bring back jobs and ensure that our economy continues to grow, we must
00:19:14first unshackle and support free enterprise.
00:19:18One of the ways to do that is to ensure that SBA is effectively serving small business
00:19:23by cutting regulation, eliminating fraud and waste, streamlining and modernizing services,
00:19:29and refocusing the agency on its core missions of helping entrepreneurs thrive.
00:19:34With the America First agenda, we are poised to unlock a new era of growth, an opportunity
00:19:39for the risk takers, job creators, and innovators who power this nation's economy.
00:19:44If confirmed, I look forward to supporting President Trump and Administrator Loeffler
00:19:48to ensure SBA programs deliver real results for Main Street and all of America.
00:19:55Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and members of the committee, thank you for your dedication
00:20:00to U.S. small businesses.
00:20:02I welcome your questions and would be honored to earn your support to serve as the next
00:20:05Deputy Administrator of the Small Business Administration.
00:20:09Thank you, Mr. Briggs.
00:20:10And, Dr. Mulligan, you are now recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
00:20:17Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the
00:20:22opportunity to appear before you today.
00:20:25My wife, Julia, and three of our children have joined us to witness part of the system
00:20:31of checks and balances.
00:20:34I appreciate their support and sacrifices as Dad served and hopes to serve again.
00:20:39I am grateful and honored by President Trump's nomination for the Chief Counsel position
00:20:44of the Office of Advocacy at the SBA and to join the President's team committed to
00:20:52replacing government overreach with common sense leadership.
00:20:56I have always lived in Illinois, with the exception of five years living in the Ranking
00:21:00Member State and one year here in Washington.
00:21:04After I was about three years old, my parents' sole source of income was a small software
00:21:10business that my father founded and managed with a partner.
00:21:17My uncle also worked most of his career at that business.
00:21:20My mother and I worked there at times.
00:21:23In my current capacity as the owner of small businesses, I am too familiar with uncompromising
00:21:30regulators.
00:21:32Agencies can shutter businesses or, short of that, cause them to throw up their hands
00:21:37in exasperation and sell out to a big corporation.
00:21:41I file at least 10 payroll tax forms every year.
00:21:46It seems like as soon as one is mailed out, the IRS is asking for another.
00:21:50With a check attached, of course.
00:21:53I got one of my biggest accounting bills ever a few months ago to comply with Treasury's
00:21:58beneficial ownership interest requirements.
00:22:03Considering the relief that President Trump just delivered on that, maybe it wasn't necessary,
00:22:07but at the time, the Treasury was threatening all of us small businesses with monetary and
00:22:12criminal penalties.
00:22:15Much of my career has challenged regulatory overreach and uncovered unnecessarily onerous
00:22:21rules.
00:22:22One of my early projects was commissioned by family farmers in central Illinois.
00:22:27They needed a look at the economic effects of eminent domain because the state was using
00:22:33that authority for private purpose.
00:22:36I testified about that at the Illinois Commerce Commission.
00:22:42My late father-in-law started an oyster farm, now run by our nephew.
00:22:51Uncompromising regulators loomed even larger there, always shifting attention away from
00:22:57the shelf and toward the customers by hiring lawyers and experts.
00:23:02Once, the farm had to prove that the regulators don't know how to measure nitrogen.
00:23:08At the time, it was to refute the government's false claim that the land under the water
00:23:12is not our land.
00:23:14I strongly support Congress' approach of creating an independent Office of Advocacy and other
00:23:20elements of Regulatory Flexibility Act to ensure that concerns of and costs imposed
00:23:26on small businesses receive meaningful weight in regulatory decisions.
00:23:32While the RFA exists on paper, too often small businesses are getting ambushed.
00:23:38Too many rules are imposed without engaging or even notifying them.
00:23:42The RFA has rules for regulators to follow, but often their attitude is, rules for thee,
00:23:48but not for me.
00:23:50President Trump does not tolerate two-tier systems.
00:23:53The law requires keeping businesses in the loop.
00:23:57It requires reviewing the old rules for their effect on small businesses.
00:24:02Agency compliance with the RFA does not necessarily need many resources, particularly when there
00:24:07is an advocacy office there ready to help, supported by Congress and the White House.
00:24:14By ensuring that the chief counsel position is filled for the first time in many years,
00:24:18the members of this committee can fully restore small business advocacy and RFA watchdog functions
00:24:24that it created in its statutes and small businesses deserve.
00:24:29Small businesses also need regulatory solutions that last beyond a single presidential cycle.
00:24:36They appreciate that the 115th Congress and President Trump used the Congressional Review
00:24:41Act a record number of times, and this Congress has gotten off to an even faster start.
00:24:49If confirmed, I look forward to working with this committee and anyone else in Congress
00:24:54developing legislation to help agencies achieve their missions at less cost to small businesses.
00:24:59I also pledge to keep you apprised of the concerns expressed during the regional outreach
00:25:04process.
00:25:06I thank the committee for its consideration.
00:25:08I welcome your questions and would be honored to earn your support to serve as the next
00:25:14chief counsel of the Office of Advocacy at the SBA.
00:25:18Wonderful.
00:25:20Thank you, Dr. Mulligan and Mr. Briggs, for your testimony.
00:25:24Before we move to questions, the committee has received several letters of support for
00:25:28Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan's nominations, and I ask for unanimous consent to enter into
00:25:34the record letters of support for Mr. Briggs, letters of support from the National Restaurant
00:25:40Association, Independent Community Bankers of America, National Small Business Association,
00:25:47National Association of Government Guaranteed Lenders, International Franchise Association,
00:25:53Texas Association of Business, Independent Bankers Association of Texas, Texas Venture
00:25:58Alliance, Economic and Community Development Institute, the Association of Women's Business
00:26:04Centers, Visiting Angels, Small Business Multicloud Coalition, and U.S. Black Chambers.
00:26:11For Dr. Mulligan, letters from the National Small Business Association, Small Business
00:26:16and Entrepreneurship Council, International Franchise Association, a joint letter from
00:26:21Tom Sullivan, SBA's chief counsel for advocacy from 2002 to 2008, and Winslow Sargent, SBA's
00:26:29chief counsel for advocacy from 2010 to 2015, and a letter from Daryl DePriest, SBA's chief
00:26:37counsel for advocacy from 2015 to 2017.
00:26:43Without objection, so ordered.
00:26:46I will now recognize myself for five minutes of questions.
00:26:50So we'll start with you, Mr. Briggs.
00:26:53During your service in the previous Trump administration, you had direct insight into
00:26:59the COVID, EIDL, and PPP.
00:27:02As you know, both programs have suffered from a lack of transparency and experienced over
00:27:07$200 billion in fraud.
00:27:10These same problems plague many of SBA's loan programs, as I highlighted during last month's
00:27:16hearing on the 7A loan program.
00:27:19If confirmed, do you commit to providing the committee with comprehensive and current information
00:27:25on how SBA's loan programs are performing?
00:27:28Chair, thank you for that question.
00:27:31I'm tremendously proud of my service, particularly with the Paycheck Protection Program and the
00:27:37EIDL program.
00:27:38I believe they did an incredible job of helping to preserve American small business jobs at
00:27:45the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.
00:27:48However, as you have noted, there is way too much fraud in these programs, or was too much
00:27:52fraud.
00:27:54And part of that, particularly with PPP, some of that was statutory mandated guardrails
00:28:01that had to be let down by law.
00:28:04But when I was acting associate administrator, we implemented upfront checks that reduced
00:28:08a lot of that fraud.
00:28:10Since that time, I understand that there have been more upfront checks and identity verification
00:28:16procedures introduced.
00:28:17However, should I be confirmed, I will continue to focus on cracking down on fraud in the
00:28:22current programs and have a zero-tolerance approach to fraud going forward.
00:28:26Very good.
00:28:27I appreciate that, because I am worried that the 7A loan program could require an appropriation
00:28:32if those defaults are too high without enough fee revenue to offset the losses that we have
00:28:39experienced.
00:28:40Do you commit to reviewing the loan portfolios and make necessary policy changes to avoid
00:28:45taxpayers footing the bill, wherever that may lead, including tightening up eligibility?
00:28:53Thank you, Chair Ernst.
00:28:54Yes, the 7A program right now is cash flow for the negative.
00:28:56For the first time in 12 years, I was noted in the hearing three weeks ago.
00:29:00It is a serious problem, and one that ultimately ends up hurting access to credit for all small
00:29:05businesses.
00:29:06I will work with Administrator Loeffler, the Associate Administrator of Capital Access,
00:29:11and all of the relevant SBA staff to make sure that we are doing everything we can to
00:29:14put that program back to its historical position of having a neutral subsidy, where the taxpayers
00:29:22are not taxed to run the program.
00:29:24Very good.
00:29:25No, thank you.
00:29:26What, in your experience, were the pitfalls of SBA's COVID programs?
00:29:32Chair Ernst, I have spent the last four years thinking about lessons learned from that experience.
00:29:38It was an unprecedented time, as every member of this committee knows, and as Ranking Member
00:29:42Markey did know, we did come together to work on this at a perilous time in our nation's
00:29:47history.
00:29:48I would say the first thing is not to shut down the entire economy, and then hope that
00:29:53something like SBA can solve the problem.
00:29:56I think that if that situation ever happened again, hopefully we do have more forethought.
00:30:00I also think that something, again, like upfront identity checks and verification,
00:30:05and also, too, being much more clear about eligibility guidelines going forward are all
00:30:09things we really need to do in both our capital access and disaster loan programs.
00:30:14Right.
00:30:15Very good.
00:30:16I appreciate that.
00:30:17And we'll go to Dr. Mulligan next.
00:30:19And as I've noted, Dr. Mulligan, under the prior administration, small businesses across
00:30:24the country were burdened with a $1.8 trillion regulatory onslaught and over 350 million
00:30:33hours of paperwork.
00:30:36While the Regulatory Flexibility Act requires agencies to consider how their regulations
00:30:41impact small businesses and look to evaluate less burdensome alternatives, agencies have
00:30:47not followed the law.
00:30:49So I did reintroduce the Prove It Act to require that agencies evaluate the true cost of regulations
00:30:56and to empower advocacy's role to make an agency prove the regulation is necessary and
00:31:04mitigates against cost and compliance burdens for small businesses.
00:31:08Do you support increasing transparency and accuracy in the cost-benefit analysis aspect
00:31:14of SBA's rulemaking process?
00:31:17Absolutely.
00:31:18Easy.
00:31:20Do you agree agencies have failed to properly consider the indirect costs of their regulations?
00:31:27Almost all of them that I've looked at have been pretty weak on considering those costs.
00:31:32If confirmed, as the chief counsel for advocacy, will you commit to properly evaluating agency
00:31:37rulemaking for both its direct and indirect impact on small businesses?
00:31:43I commit to do that.
00:31:45And are you supportive of the Prove It Act?
00:31:48Yes, I support the Prove It Act.
00:31:50And right on time.
00:31:51My time has expired.
00:31:53Ranking Member Markey.
00:31:54Thank you, Madam Chair.
00:31:56Dr. Mulligan, the Office of Advocacy sits within the SBA, but the chief counsel is statutorily
00:32:04independent from the SBA administrator, and your work is by statute not permitted to be
00:32:14submitted to the Office of Management and Budget or to any other federal agency or any
00:32:21executive office.
00:32:25That includes, again, OMB.
00:32:29You can't share information with OMB.
00:32:31You expressed to my staff that you take that independence seriously.
00:32:35However, we know that Elon Musk's minions have already had conversations with leadership
00:32:41at the Office of Advocacy.
00:32:44Can you commit to the committee that you will refuse to take instruction from DOJ or from
00:32:50the administration so that you are in compliance with the statutory mandate?
00:33:00Thank you for your question, Senator.
00:33:02I support President Trump's goal of making government more efficient.
00:33:06He got he won a mandate in the election to do exactly that.
00:33:10He did not win a mandate to violate statutes.
00:33:14He said he was going to follow the law.
00:33:17The law says that you cannot share information.
00:33:20Are you going to abide by that law?
00:33:25If you look at advocacy's charter statute and how it's changed over time, it's clear
00:33:31that, number one, advocacy has a special hiring authority, as you said, and, number two, as
00:33:34you said, the authority lies with the chief counsel.
00:33:40I'm going to read you the statute again.
00:33:42Your work is, by statute, not permitted to be submitted, quote, to the Office of Management
00:33:47and Budget or to any other federal agency or any executive office.
00:33:52Do you agree to abide by that law?
00:33:56Will you abide by that law?
00:33:58All the statutes related to the office, I will abide by.
00:34:01So you will not share that information with any other agency?
00:34:04Is that what you're saying?
00:34:06That's correct.
00:34:07All the reports are according to statute and would be my practice to do is submit it
00:34:12to the Congress and to the President.
00:34:16What do you believe is your role in ensuring that congressional mandates are followed regardless
00:34:20of executive directives?
00:34:22Do congressional mandates take primacy if they're there as the abiding law?
00:34:31Thank you for your question.
00:34:32I'm not sure I understand the question.
00:34:34Are you referring to executive orders?
00:34:37The question is, do you believe that statutes that have been put on the books by House and
00:34:42Senate votes and signed by presidents take precedence over executive directives?
00:34:49I'm confused by the question because I served in the first Trump administration and I followed
00:34:55the second one.
00:34:57There are lots of executive orders.
00:34:59Every single one I've looked at, the primary instruction in those executive orders is for
00:35:04the people reading it to follow the laws of the United States.
00:35:10So you're saying that if there is a statute, that you will abide by that statute and not
00:35:17allow for an executive order?
00:35:19Yes, I would do that.
00:35:20And I would expect, as President Trump has done almost 300 times in the past, to tell
00:35:23me to follow the laws of the United States.
00:35:28You do believe statutes then are at a higher order than executive orders in terms of what
00:35:35you must obey?
00:35:36I'm confused because the executive orders themselves say to follow the laws of the United
00:35:40States.
00:35:41So I don't see the conflict.
00:35:43All right.
00:35:44Well, sometimes presidents, when they're making executive orders, believe that they are the
00:35:49law even though there's a statute, which is very clear as to what the law is.
00:35:55So that's the point that I'm making to you, and I will be holding you to that standard.
00:36:02Will you use loyalty tests, Mr. Mulligan, or any other criteria unrelated to an employee's
00:36:08work product when making hiring or firing decisions?
00:36:12Thank you for your question.
00:36:13The advocacy offices we created, and if I were confirmed, would be my goal as well,
00:36:21to be an independent voice for small business in Washington.
00:36:25So the hiring decisions, procurement decisions, all the decisions will be around how can we
00:36:29better be an independent voice for small business with the agencies here in Washington.
00:36:35Have you met with the team at advocacy yet?
00:36:38I have not been in the building.
00:36:40They have a, I think we call it a Sherpa, who's helped me find my way to your office
00:36:45and the different senators' offices for the meetings, but I have not met the staff yet.
00:36:50We've heard stories of specific industries meeting at Mar-a-Lago and getting special
00:36:55treatment from the administration.
00:36:58Do you agree that that creates market distortions when special treatment is handed out and it's
00:37:05not an even-handed application of the law?
00:37:10I'm a little confused by the question.
00:37:12I haven't been to Mar-a-Lago, I'm not sure what businesses are going there, what conversations
00:37:16are had.
00:37:17I'd like to look in detail at what you're referring to, but in the abstract, I don't
00:37:21really understand the question.
00:37:23Well, it's very clear that if someone visits Mar-a-Lago and then the president says give
00:37:29special treatment to one particular company, that that would obviously begin to create
00:37:36a market distortion because it would not be an equal application of the law that the SBA
00:37:43is supposed to be discharging.
00:37:47I'm also confused by that.
00:37:49I apologize.
00:37:50I'm confused by that question, too.
00:37:51Because you gave legal terms in there and then economic terms like market distortion.
00:37:54I'm not quite sure of the connection.
00:37:57I'm not a lawyer.
00:37:59I do understand the idea of market distortions.
00:38:01I've read many, many articles about market distortions.
00:38:04I'm not quite sure how they apply in the situation you're describing.
00:38:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:38:13Thank you, Ranking Member Markey.
00:38:16I'm going to recognize myself now as the acting chair on behalf of Chair Ernst for five minutes
00:38:23to ask a few questions.
00:38:27I want to start with the Small Business Administration.
00:38:31I'll start with you, Mr. Briggs.
00:38:33By the way, I hold no grudge to the fact that you're a Michigan grad as a senator from Ohio.
00:38:41I remember asking a college president one time about this university that he was running.
00:38:49I said, can you tell me what the three things that you're really good at?
00:38:56He told me five, five things at the university, maybe six things that the university was really
00:39:01good at.
00:39:02I said, well, what are some of the things that you're maybe not really good at that
00:39:06maybe you shouldn't be doing anymore?
00:39:09He couldn't come up with one.
00:39:11We do everything really well.
00:39:13No institution is great at everything.
00:39:17There's some things that they've discovered over time that they have great value in.
00:39:20Then there are things that maybe they say, well, maybe we ought not do that anymore.
00:39:25Maybe there's something better that we could do with those resources.
00:39:29Based on your experience and your knowledge of the agency, reflecting on the nature of
00:39:35that question, what is it that the SBA does that's great?
00:39:40What might we rethink prioritizing resources around that we could do better?
00:39:44Senator, thank you for your question.
00:39:46I do accept that Ohio State won the National Football Championship.
00:39:52Here's what SBA does well and what the focus, if I'm confirmed, is going to be, doing its
00:39:56core mission well.
00:39:58What I call the three C's in D, access to capital, contracting, and counseling small
00:40:03businesses to grow.
00:40:05The other important feature of that is the disaster function.
00:40:08We've been there, as we were five years ago during the COVID pandemic, but to make sure
00:40:12we're also there now when disaster strikes across the country.
00:40:15Those are things that the agency can and should do well and will be the focus should I be
00:40:20the deputy administrator.
00:40:21The things the agency does not do well are things like direct lending, voter registration
00:40:26efforts, and picking winners and losers.
00:40:29That should not be the focus of the agency when it comes to its programs and policies,
00:40:33but rather ensuring that all of those four core missions that I described are available
00:40:38and accessible to all Americans.
00:40:44On the final point of the things that it doesn't do well, is it required to do that in statute
00:40:50anywhere?
00:40:51Senator, I actually have been reading the Small Business Act at night because I haven't
00:40:56been able to sleep in advance of this hearing.
00:40:58I can't find that.
00:41:00I do think there are programs in the government contracting area that work with socially disadvantaged,
00:41:05but that's a separate thing from what we historically are now referred to as DEI programs.
00:41:09I am not aware of that.
00:41:12I would assume then with the administrator's support that you will no longer be doing those
00:41:21things that the agency in the past has been doing but has no statutory responsibility
00:41:26to accomplish.
00:41:27Senator, if I'm confirmed, I will follow the law and focus on the core agency missions
00:41:32of access to capital, contracting, counseling, and disaster response.
00:41:37Great.
00:41:38Mr. Mulligan, do you have thoughts on any of those questions?
00:41:44Thank you for your question.
00:41:45The advocacy office is a fairly small office, about 50 people, has a fairly tight range
00:41:52of responsibilities that Congress assigns to it.
00:41:55As far as I can tell, they've been executing those responsibilities and not going outside
00:41:59those boundaries.
00:42:00Great.
00:42:02Mr. Briggs, just another thought.
00:42:07Part of my previous responsibilities before becoming a U.S. Senator, I was very involved
00:42:12in economic development and supporting entrepreneurs through venture funds and IP, securing IP
00:42:23and things like that for entrepreneurial ventures.
00:42:25I've rarely bumped into an entrepreneur who's told me that they need the government involvement
00:42:34in much of what they do.
00:42:35They normally talk about the things that government does that are in conflict with what entrepreneurs
00:42:41want to do.
00:42:42In your experience with small businesses and entrepreneurs, what are the things that they
00:42:49most note about the fact that you're a government agency designed to help businesses, yet most
00:42:56businesses will complain about government standing in its way?
00:42:59What are some of the things that you've encountered that businesses most commonly tell you, particularly
00:43:05small businesses, that are problematic for them?
00:43:08Senator, over the last four years, I've worked and counseled everything from venture-backed
00:43:13startups to what we would call mom-and-pop shops.
00:43:17Most across the board, they're not aware of the breadth and depth of regulations that
00:43:21they have to follow that they had no idea about.
00:43:25Especially with venture-backed businesses, particularly in the financial technology arena,
00:43:31the amount of regulation just to get to a minimum viable product is unprecedented.
00:43:38They just don't even understand sometimes what to do, regardless of the great resources
00:43:42that SBA can provide, including counseling or access to capital.
00:43:49One of the things I think this committee would find of value is that as you're out there
00:43:55with counselors and capital and talking with small businesses, if you could compile a list
00:44:03for us of the kinds of common concerns that businesses are identifying that they could
00:44:12use relief, that actually we don't need government money, we don't need government help, we need
00:44:19government relief, relief from those regulations, relief from the things that get in their way.
00:44:23I think one of the things that would be very valuable, at least I would think it would
00:44:26be a value to me, is for SBA to identify those things that are commonly discussed by
00:44:37the businesses that you're trying to help as impediments to their success.
00:44:42Instead of all the things that government can do for people, how about the things that
00:44:45government can stop doing to them that stand in the way of their success?
00:44:50Would you commit to working to accomplish that?
00:44:55Senator, I will commit to working with that, particularly with SBA's Office of the Ombudsman.
00:45:00Great. Thank you.
00:45:02Now, I would like to recognize Senator Cantwell for five minutes.
00:45:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much.
00:45:12Welcome to the nominees for your positions.
00:45:16I know that you probably have given a statement that I haven't been able to read yet, so we'll look at that.
00:45:23But I wanted to ask you about this pressing issue on tariffs.
00:45:27First, Dr. Mulligan, do you think that the President's tariff-first approach is helpful to small business?
00:45:33Can you describe the impact of tariffs on Mexico and Canada, two of our largest trading partners,
00:45:39what you think that would have on small businesses?
00:45:43Thank you for your question. It's good to see you again.
00:45:47Trade policy absolutely must consider the concerns of small businesses.
00:45:51Congress created an independent office to advocate for them.
00:45:55President Trump, more than any president in U.S. history, has prioritized getting that chief counsel position filled.
00:46:01If it goes unfilled too long, we could be in a position where it is mainly the big companies
00:46:06that are heard around trade policy rather than the small ones.
00:46:12So you think in general, because there's less flexibility and maneuvering,
00:46:22you're saying it could be a bigger concern?
00:46:26And also that their voice in Washington is weak without having an office like advocacy at full capacity and full efficiency.
00:46:36And what do you think that we should be doing to communicate about the impact of tariffs on those small businesses?
00:46:48One thing, very important, maybe the primary thing that the Office of Advocacy does is go out to the small businesses where they are.
00:46:56They don't require them to know what phone number to call or where to visit in Washington, what door and what elevator to use.
00:47:01Go out to them, sometimes in virtual mode as well, especially for the rural, and listen.
00:47:07Just listen, write down, and come back to the makers of the policy, trade policy or other agencies,
00:47:15and tell them, hey, here's the concerns that we heard from our businesses.
00:47:19And the RFA requires you to consider those concerns when you make your policy decision.
00:47:27Mr. Briggs, do you have any comments?
00:47:31With respect to – thank you, Senator Cantwell, for the question.
00:47:34I just would note that from my understanding of the tariff proposal,
00:47:38part of that is to bring back manufacturing, onshore manufacturing to this country.
00:47:43We've seen some initial indicators based on employment numbers that 11,000 manufacturing jobs in the last or the previous month were started.
00:47:52I do think that this is part of a larger effort to ultimately do that, to bring back manufacturing to the country.
00:47:57Well, I definitely agree with you on the manufacturing jobs.
00:48:01And I would say to my colleague from Ohio, who was ably chairing the meeting,
00:48:08that I'm very concerned because I think that we have brought back –
00:48:14we have brought back manufacturing jobs into the United States because of the Chips and Science Act.
00:48:20So the president right now – it's a different story – but is saying maybe he wants to get rid of that.
00:48:25I would say for places like Ohio and Arizona and Texas, it has absolutely brought manufacturing back.
00:48:31And in the state of Washington, it's brought manufacturing back.
00:48:34Why we should care is because manufacturing jobs help people go from working class to middle class
00:48:40because they're good-paying jobs.
00:48:42And they help small businesses in that region help build an ecosystem.
00:48:46So I do think the president's statement that somehow he could have gotten there –
00:48:51he could have gotten the semiconductor industry to come back and manufacture in the United States by tariffs –
00:48:55I don't agree with that.
00:48:57It may have a philosophical difference there.
00:48:59But the point is, is that I hear so many people saying that we haven't grown manufacturing jobs.
00:49:05And the Biden administration, because of those policies, did grow manufacturing jobs.
00:49:09So now the question is, how do we put pedal to the metal and keep growing it?
00:49:13And one of the things that I think a lot of people have been discussing
00:49:17is how can the policies of the Small Business Administration with access to capital
00:49:24and targeting some of these supply chain issues give the American economy a leg up.
00:49:31So, for example, in my state, we have a lot of three different fusion companies.
00:49:36Now, we'll see if fusion technology is really here today.
00:49:40Senator Risch and I chair a fusion caucus –
00:49:43well, it's a group that's made recommendations to the United States about how we would accelerate.
00:49:49But when you think about ships and science, it's about let's get the test bedding done.
00:49:53Let's get the next generation done.
00:49:55And then let's make sure we have the supply chain to accelerate.
00:49:59And if we can just accelerate now, whether it's fusion or something else,
00:50:04let's start working with our supply chains and small businesses
00:50:08so that they are providing those products here in the United States.
00:50:12And so I just want to – do you think that's a smart strategy?
00:50:18Senator, thank you for your question.
00:50:20And I assume you're addressing me, not Dr. Mulligan.
00:50:22Yes, because of your deputy administrator.
00:50:26I generally support your remarks that manufacturing can start a small business ecosystem.
00:50:33My focus, if I'm confirmed, is to help bring back that manufacturing renaissance
00:50:37but also to make sure that SBA's core programs function as best as possible
00:50:42to serve those small businesses that might come about
00:50:45from a manufacturing renaissance under this new – under the Trump administration.
00:50:49Yeah, my statement was just a little different.
00:50:52It said that those – the test bedding of next-generation technology –
00:50:57the Chips and Science Act is about speeding up the advancement of technology
00:51:02to happen faster than it normally would
00:51:05because these big companies or large organizations
00:51:08may not have the money to do the kind of research to do the actual test bedding.
00:51:12But once the test bedding is done, it's like we're off to the races.
00:51:15Okay, now how do we continue to lead?
00:51:18And I think it's not that manufacturing would drought the supply chain or the –
00:51:23it's what could SBA do to help build that
00:51:27and be cognizant of those opportunities.
00:51:31And so I do think that when you think about the AI situation –
00:51:36oh my gosh, my time's almost over, Madam Chair.
00:51:39But you think about what happened with CHAT-GBT.
00:51:43Here we go.
00:51:44We basically demonstrated a major milestone that happens in AI
00:51:50and then immediately China goes and tries to knock off one aspect of that
00:51:55on how to do it in a cheaper fashion.
00:51:57So I think hand in hand with being the leaders in technology and innovation
00:52:02is then how do we continue to lead on the small business
00:52:05and supply chain side of getting those products and resources there
00:52:10so that ecosystem can be more aggressively grown.
00:52:14I do think that our great prowess as a nation
00:52:18is to outpace other countries on the R&D and implementation.
00:52:22So anyway, thank you so much.
00:52:23I will have some more questions for the record.
00:52:25But thank you so much.
00:52:27Thank you, Senator Cantwell.
00:52:29And I'll do a second round of questions.
00:52:32And I do know that Ranking Member Markey will be back
00:52:35and have additional questions as well as a closing statement.
00:52:38So we'll go back to Mr. Briggs for you.
00:52:42Last year SBA failed to alert or provide the committee
00:52:46with any information before the agency ran out of funding
00:52:50for its disaster assistance program.
00:52:53Administrator Loeffler committed to ensuring Congress
00:52:56has transparent and timely information from SBA
00:52:59during her confirmation hearing.
00:53:01Can you additionally confirm that SBA will keep Congress
00:53:05informed of any changes in SBA's disaster program
00:53:09or any potential shortfalls?
00:53:12Chair, thanks for the question.
00:53:14Yes, in all of my previous times as a presidential appointee,
00:53:17especially during COVID, I saw it as part of my job
00:53:20to keep Congress informed, especially this committee.
00:53:23Very good.
00:53:25Under the Biden administration, a myriad of changes
00:53:28to the disaster program went into place,
00:53:31likely exacerbating the problems that led
00:53:33to the program's shortfall last fall.
00:53:36As someone with experience leading the Office
00:53:39of Capital Access, how will you ensure
00:53:41that the disaster loan program is properly managed
00:53:44during your time as SBA Deputy Administrator?
00:53:47Chair, thank you for the question.
00:53:50As you said, I did oversee the Office of Capital Access.
00:53:54After I left, there was a little bit of that merging
00:53:57with the old Office of Disaster,
00:53:59and so now the systems are somewhat merged.
00:54:02I think one of the two things I would first immediately do
00:54:05is work with the current AA or Associate Administrator
00:54:08of the Office of Capital Access to understand,
00:54:10especially over the last eight weeks, what has been done,
00:54:13but also to work with our new CFO.
00:54:15This is, in my opinion, basic blocking and tackling,
00:54:18that we have to make sure there's enough money
00:54:21because we know disasters are coming.
00:54:23It's inexcusable.
00:54:24We don't know when, but COVID taught us one thing,
00:54:27think of the worst and then double it
00:54:29or triple it or ten times it.
00:54:31And so if I'm confirmed, that will be my focus
00:54:33to work with both the CFO's office
00:54:36and the Office of Capital Access on the disaster program.
00:54:40So you've given a very good overview.
00:54:42You are committing to ensure
00:54:43that a shortfall never happens again.
00:54:46Is that correct?
00:54:47Yes, Senator.
00:54:48Okay, thank you very much.
00:54:50And I've got two and a half minutes remaining,
00:54:54so let's go to, again, Mr. Briggs.
00:54:58We'll talk a little bit about disaster field training.
00:55:02Iowa experiences our fair share of disasters.
00:55:05We've seen durations of tornadoes, you name it.
00:55:09Just last week,
00:55:10Iowans experienced a powerful blizzard
00:55:12that left thousands without power,
00:55:14and now we're about to go into that tornado season.
00:55:18In a disaster's aftermath,
00:55:20there's a lot of folks that are at their most vulnerable,
00:55:23and it's something that's very tragic.
00:55:26They're doing their best to pick up the pieces
00:55:28of their lives that have been destroyed
00:55:30by something completely out of their control.
00:55:33Disappointingly, though,
00:55:34we have heard repeated reports over the years
00:55:37of SBA field staff showing poor customer service
00:55:40to the disaster victims who come to them for help.
00:55:43Victims have been profiled,
00:55:45made to feel SBA cannot do anything for them,
00:55:48and even left with completely incorrect information.
00:55:53This happened in Iowa.
00:55:55This is unacceptable, and it must be changed.
00:55:58As SBA deputy administrator,
00:56:00how will you help ensure SBA disaster field staff
00:56:05will be properly trained and equipped
00:56:07to help disaster victims access SBA assistance?
00:56:11Chair, thank you for that question.
00:56:13It's inexcusable when situations happen like that,
00:56:16and people are at their most vulnerable.
00:56:18When I served in the prior administration,
00:56:20one of the initiatives I undertook
00:56:22was the field alignment initiative
00:56:24to ensure that there was consistent customer service
00:56:27across the country,
00:56:28so the customer service that small businesses got in Iowa
00:56:31was the same they would have gotten in Massachusetts.
00:56:34This is the sort of thing that I take great pride in
00:56:37in working with the Office of Field Operations.
00:56:39I believe the associate administrator from there
00:56:41is from Iowa,
00:56:42and so we will work to address that as best as possible,
00:56:45but people really need the SBA during disasters.
00:56:49That was made abundantly clear to me during my prior term
00:56:52and will be a key focus of mine,
00:56:54getting the disaster thing right going forward.
00:56:57Thank you so much.
00:56:58I appreciate that commitment, and then if...
00:57:02We have Senator Markey coming back?
00:57:07Oh, okay.
00:57:08Okay, just a very quick break, and we will continue.
00:57:13I think we have one more senator coming,
00:57:16and then we'll go back to Senator Markey.
00:57:19But a little bit about our experience in Iowa.
00:57:23Last year during the tornado season,
00:57:25we saw a number of our very small communities
00:57:28that had been wiped out by those disasters.
00:57:31In one case, 60% of the homes and businesses in one town
00:57:35was gone after a tornado,
00:57:38and my own staff was on ground to assist those people
00:57:43that had been impacted by the tornado,
00:57:46and the SBA field staff had provided inaccurate,
00:57:50incomplete, absolutely wrong information,
00:57:53and actually provided them a handout with a website
00:57:57that had been dead for heaven knows how long.
00:58:01So that's why it's so important.
00:58:03We have got to provide people with accurate information
00:58:06when they are most vulnerable,
00:58:08and Mr. Justice is getting situated.
00:58:11So, Senator, if you're ready to proceed with some questions,
00:58:15we've had some great dialogue today.
00:58:17You're recognized.
00:58:19Madam Chairman, thank you so much,
00:58:22and thank both of these wonderful young men
00:58:25that I've had the opportunity to talk to and be with,
00:58:29and I really appreciate both that.
00:58:33I can tell you just this.
00:58:35From Jim Justice's standpoint,
00:58:37Jim Justice is a business guy.
00:58:39He's not a politician.
00:58:41You know, I'm a small business guy,
00:58:44and I have had dialogue with both these individuals,
00:58:47and we are blessed.
00:58:49We are just flat blessed to have them both.
00:58:52You know, Mr. Briggs was here before,
00:58:56and you bring so much to the table,
00:58:59and Mr. Mulligan, you know,
00:59:01I am just so impressed with you.
00:59:03It's off the charts.
00:59:05So with all that being said,
00:59:07I've got a couple of questions.
00:59:09They're kind of bland in themselves,
00:59:11but I would just tell you first and foremost
00:59:14that you can't fathom in West Virginia
00:59:18how important our small businesses are,
00:59:22but we really can't fathom all across this nation
00:59:26absolutely that the guts,
00:59:29the absolute everything we have in this nation
00:59:33starts with our small businesses,
00:59:35and so with all that being said,
00:59:37again, we have two guys here,
00:59:39two gentlemen that are going to lead us,
00:59:42and they're going to knock it flat out of the park,
00:59:45and I promise you that.
00:59:47And so if I could ask this question real quick,
00:59:50you know, Mr. Briggs,
00:59:52you've been there before,
00:59:54and my question reads,
00:59:56can you tell us today
00:59:58how your prior experience at SBA
01:00:00is going to serve you the very best
01:00:03and serve all of us at the highest level?
01:00:07Thank you, Senator, for that question.
01:00:09During the first term,
01:00:10I had the privilege to travel your state
01:00:12three times on Office of Capital Access Business.
01:00:15I'm a big fan of West Virginia.
01:00:17And you loved it, didn't you?
01:00:19I loved it, yeah.
01:00:20Now we're talking.
01:00:21We were doing that during the rural initiatives,
01:00:23one of the things that we did.
01:00:25Sir, I served at the SBA
01:00:27at probably the most crucial time
01:00:29in the agency's history outside of its founding,
01:00:31and it was stretched to its limit,
01:00:33and so from that kind of experience
01:00:36or battlefield experience, as it were,
01:00:38you just learn things you would otherwise never learn.
01:00:40You understand it.
01:00:41You're quickly, intuitively understanding
01:00:43how the agency works,
01:00:44and what needs to be done.
01:00:46In addition to that kind of insider knowledge
01:00:48of how it works,
01:00:49I also bring these tremendous external relationships
01:00:51formed during that era,
01:00:53and a willingness to work with the committee
01:00:56on both sides,
01:00:57particularly as it comes to disaster response
01:00:59and related issues
01:01:00to better serve American small businesses.
01:01:03I believe that.
01:01:05I believe every part.
01:01:07And absolutely, not only do I believe,
01:01:10but all of us will hold you to that, too.
01:01:13You know, and I think we'll hold you to that
01:01:16very proudly.
01:01:17And if I could go to Mr. Mulligan
01:01:20just real quick and just say just this.
01:01:23You know, West Virginia,
01:01:24I just spoke just a second ago.
01:01:26You know, I had the great opportunity
01:01:28to be the governor of West Virginia
01:01:30for eight years.
01:01:31Now, just think about this.
01:01:33I've said this over and over and over.
01:01:36What is my number one responsibility
01:01:39when I was their governor?
01:01:41My number one responsibility,
01:01:43you know, you may think,
01:01:45well, take care of the people.
01:01:47You know, absolutely be there
01:01:49when things get really tough on them
01:01:51and everything.
01:01:52And all those things are true.
01:01:54Absolutely make sure we're safe.
01:01:56All those things are true.
01:01:58But the number one thing that I felt
01:02:01was get the economics right.
01:02:03Make sure the economics were right.
01:02:06Because if the economics were right,
01:02:08then you can do so much for so many.
01:02:10And if the economics are upside down,
01:02:12and believe me, when I walked in the door,
01:02:14and I don't say this braggadociosly,
01:02:16but West Virginia was bankrupt.
01:02:18That's all there is to it.
01:02:20And all of a sudden,
01:02:21we got it really, really, really cooking.
01:02:23And at the end of the day,
01:02:25we'd have never got it really cooking
01:02:27if it hadn't have been for great people like you
01:02:30and absolutely all the support of SBA
01:02:33all across the planet in West Virginia.
01:02:36So, Mr. Mulligan, understanding all that
01:02:39and understanding absolutely how vital our economy is,
01:02:44tell us, tell me just a couple of things
01:02:48about how you would support a rural economy
01:02:51in absolutely every way.
01:02:54Thank you for your question.
01:02:56I was glad to be in your office
01:02:58and share with you the priorities
01:03:00that I have for the Office of Advocacy,
01:03:02if I'm confirmed.
01:03:03And the rural small businesses
01:03:05are something that the office is well-situated
01:03:07to serve and listen to.
01:03:09Really, it's a listening exercise
01:03:10and coming back and communicating.
01:03:12So the office has been...
01:03:14Historically, it's been to West Virginia
01:03:16to visit the small businesses where they are.
01:03:18There was a lime business there they recently visited.
01:03:21With the farmers,
01:03:23we have the opportunity to go out
01:03:25and meet them, also virtual meetings.
01:03:28And the whole point is to listen
01:03:30and then come back to Washington,
01:03:32where they...
01:03:33Listen, then they have authority,
01:03:34but not knowledge.
01:03:35And really, hey,
01:03:36the small business in West Virginia,
01:03:38they have these concerns,
01:03:39and you really need to take them into account
01:03:41before you make your policies.
01:03:43Well, let me just add one comment.
01:03:45You're splitting the bullseye on one thing.
01:03:49You know, I'm a real believer,
01:03:50if you want to know what's going on with your business,
01:03:52you got to get out there and get dirty
01:03:54and get right with the people.
01:03:56You know, that's all there is to it.
01:03:58And literally, I hear you in every way,
01:04:00and that is a terrific answer to me.
01:04:02Madam Chairman, thank you so much for...
01:04:06You bet.
01:04:07Thank you, Senator Justice.
01:04:08We'll go now to five minutes
01:04:10to Senator Hickenlooper.
01:04:12Thank you, Madam Chair.
01:04:14Thank you both for being here, Mr. Briggs,
01:04:16Mr. Mulligan.
01:04:17Appreciate your willingness to enter service.
01:04:22I'll start with you, Mr. Briggs,
01:04:24that Congress created the SBA in the law
01:04:27so that it could promote access to capital
01:04:29for small businesses when I was governor
01:04:31In a different lifetime,
01:04:32we did what we called
01:04:33the bottom-up economic development plan,
01:04:35but one of the five main things
01:04:37that literally every part of the state said
01:04:39is we need better access to capital.
01:04:42And I think that's why
01:04:43Congress appropriates money to SBA programs
01:04:46is to get access to capital.
01:04:49In the last few months,
01:04:50we've seen the president administration
01:04:51try to defy Congress
01:04:53and restrain those funds
01:04:55again and again,
01:04:56it's frozen money that Congress appropriated
01:04:58and really tried to shut down
01:05:00whole agencies
01:05:01that we had created through law.
01:05:04And I just am worried
01:05:05that that funding
01:05:06for small business
01:05:07is going to disappear
01:05:09if we're not on top of it.
01:05:10So I want to make sure
01:05:11that you're willing
01:05:12to do everything you can
01:05:14to running the SBA
01:05:16in line with the law,
01:05:17including appropriations
01:05:18as Congress intended.
01:05:21Senator Hickenlooper,
01:05:22thank you for the question.
01:05:23If confirmed by the Senate,
01:05:24I will uphold the law
01:05:25in a fair and impartial manner.
01:05:27Okay, I'll take that as a yes then.
01:05:30Mr. Mulligan,
01:05:31small business owners
01:05:32often face a range
01:05:33of challenges and barriers
01:05:35and stuff that we...
01:05:38until you've done it.
01:05:39I mean, it took me
01:05:40almost two years
01:05:41to raise the money
01:05:42to open my first restaurant.
01:05:44But those barriers
01:05:45change over time,
01:05:46they evolve.
01:05:47And I think it's important
01:05:49that we stay on top
01:05:50of this evolving
01:05:51small business landscape
01:05:53and make sure
01:05:54that we're understanding
01:05:55that trends like AI
01:05:56changes in the lending market
01:06:00that we're recognizing
01:06:01how they affect entrepreneurs,
01:06:02how they change
01:06:03the access to capital.
01:06:05So in your view,
01:06:06what developments
01:06:07in the small business environment
01:06:08should we be focusing on
01:06:09trying to understand better?
01:06:12How would you use
01:06:13your Office of Advocacy
01:06:14to make sure
01:06:15that Congress
01:06:17and the SBA
01:06:19stay informed?
01:06:22Thank you for your question.
01:06:23I agree with you 100%.
01:06:25The small business economy
01:06:26changes pretty fast
01:06:28and it's been changing fast
01:06:29in recent times.
01:06:31And that means
01:06:32the data we had before
01:06:33is obsolete
01:06:34and you really want
01:06:35to get access
01:06:37to new data
01:06:38that reflects
01:06:39the current situation.
01:06:40You mentioned AI
01:06:41I think is a factor.
01:06:42Different types
01:06:43of employment relationships
01:06:44are evolving over time.
01:06:46And one of the great things
01:06:48about the Office of Advocacy
01:06:50is even before
01:06:51there was a Regulatory
01:06:52Flexibility Act,
01:06:53Congress understood
01:06:55this issue of measurement
01:06:56and they created
01:06:58the Office
01:06:59to have an Office
01:07:01of Economic Research
01:07:02and do measurement.
01:07:03I think a lot of the members
01:07:05even to this day
01:07:06are relying on
01:07:07the small business numbers
01:07:08that come from the Office
01:07:09and it would be
01:07:10a huge priority
01:07:11not just because
01:07:12I've been an economic researcher
01:07:13for so many years
01:07:14but it would be
01:07:15a huge priority for me
01:07:16to make sure
01:07:17the statistics are the best
01:07:18and up to date
01:07:19and reflect the current situation.
01:07:20I could not agree more.
01:07:21I think that
01:07:22what I tell my staff
01:07:23all the time
01:07:24is information is power
01:07:25and the more we share
01:07:26that power
01:07:27where people can put it
01:07:28to use
01:07:29like small business
01:07:30entrepreneurs
01:07:31the better off we are.
01:07:32Mr. Briggs,
01:07:34small businesses
01:07:35in Indian Country
01:07:36face unique challenges
01:07:38and that's no surprise.
01:07:40The landscape
01:07:41is in many cases
01:07:42more challenging
01:07:43in a variety of ways.
01:07:45Last Congress
01:07:46we worked with
01:07:49senators on both sides
01:07:50of the aisle
01:07:52to create
01:07:55a bill
01:07:56that would codify
01:07:57the SBA's
01:07:58Office of Native American Affairs.
01:08:00That bill
01:08:01came out of this committee
01:08:02with 18 to 1 vote.
01:08:05If you're confirmed
01:08:06are you willing
01:08:07to
01:08:08commit
01:08:09to doing everything
01:08:10you can
01:08:11or to
01:08:12aggressively
01:08:13try to
01:08:14see if
01:08:15we make sure
01:08:16that the Office
01:08:17of Native American Affairs
01:08:18has the resources
01:08:19it needs
01:08:20to try and support
01:08:21Indian entrepreneurs
01:08:22who
01:08:23often times
01:08:24have far
01:08:25more difficult
01:08:26access to capital
01:08:27than anyone else.
01:08:28Senator,
01:08:29thank you for the question.
01:08:30I'm aware
01:08:31of the challenges
01:08:32facing the Native American
01:08:33community.
01:08:34My sister lives
01:08:35in New Mexico
01:08:36and has worked
01:08:37on a reservation
01:08:38in Taos, New Mexico
01:08:39and has told me
01:08:40of the challenges
01:08:41facing that particular
01:08:42community.
01:08:43I commit
01:08:44to certainly
01:08:45looking at this
01:08:46legislation
01:08:47and working
01:08:48with your office
01:08:49and the full committee
01:08:50to make sure
01:08:51that we're
01:08:52doing the right
01:08:53thing.
01:08:54I appreciate
01:08:55that.
01:08:56In so many
01:08:57ways
01:08:58the SBA
01:08:59is that
01:09:00bastion
01:09:01that place
01:09:02where
01:09:03entrepreneurs
01:09:04can turn.
01:09:05Usually
01:09:06with all due
01:09:07respect
01:09:08to the SBA
01:09:09you have
01:09:10to have
01:09:11a little
01:09:12bit of
01:09:13capital
01:09:14a little
01:09:15bit of
01:09:16momentum
01:09:17before the SBA
01:09:18will even
01:09:19get that access.
01:09:20I remember
01:09:21when we first
01:09:22got our
01:09:237A loan
01:09:24and it
01:09:25transformed
01:09:26our business
01:09:27in ways
01:09:28that take
01:09:29hours to
01:09:30explain.
01:09:31I tremendously
01:09:32respect both
01:09:33of you
01:09:34for your effort
01:09:35to come
01:09:36and help
01:09:37small businesses
01:09:38as they are
01:09:39without question
01:09:40the core
01:09:41of our
01:09:42economy.
01:09:44I yield
01:09:45back to the
01:09:46chair.
01:09:47Thank you
01:09:48Mr. Briggs
01:09:49and Dr. Mulligan
01:09:50for being here
01:09:51with us
01:09:52today and
01:09:53for your
01:09:54willingness
01:09:55to serve.
01:09:56We do
01:09:57appreciate it.
01:09:58We are
01:09:59going to
01:10:00leave the
01:10:01record open
01:10:02for two
01:10:03days
01:10:04until 5 p.m.
01:10:05on Friday
01:10:06March 14th
01:10:07for the
01:10:08members
01:10:09to submit
01:10:10questions
01:10:11for the
01:10:12record
01:10:13and we
01:10:14will keep
01:10:15the record
01:10:16open
01:10:17and we
01:10:18do
01:10:19appreciate
01:10:20your prompt
01:10:21response
01:10:22to any
01:10:23questions
01:10:24submitted
01:10:25for the
01:10:26record.
01:10:27We do
01:10:28require your
01:10:29responses
01:10:30prior to
01:10:31advancing
01:10:32your
01:10:33nominations
01:10:34out of
01:10:35the
01:10:36committee
01:10:37and with
01:10:38that
01:10:39the
01:10:40committee
01:10:41on small
01:10:42business
01:10:43and
01:10:44entrepreneurship
01:10:45stands