Sunderland draw against Preston North end with special guest Daniel Storey...
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:22My name is James Copley.
00:24No Phil Smith today, no Jason Jones today, but I'm delighted to be joined by a very special
00:28guest, Daniel Storey from the iNewspaper.
00:30Daniel, how are you doing?
00:31I'm doing very well.
00:32Thanks for having me.
00:33Yeah.
00:34Thanks for coming on.
00:35We're going to talk about the the Preston North End game shortly, which you attended
00:40last night.
00:41But please tell me about this fantastic undertaking that you are going around the 92 clubs in
00:48Britain and all of that.
00:50Tell me about it.
00:51It's incredible.
00:52I've been following it closely.
00:53Oh, thank you.
00:54Yeah.
00:55I'm doing the 92, which I think most listeners will know about as a thing, try and tick them
01:01off, go and watch Sunderland away, doing that.
01:04I'm trying to do it in this space for a single season.
01:08And as part of my job, also doing a detailed piece on each of the 92 clubs and just trying
01:14to cover the beauty of English league football in general.
01:19I think I have been guilty in the past of just kind of moaning about what's wrong with
01:25English football.
01:26And I think actually the other way might work better, which is to go around and say what's
01:31brilliant about it.
01:32So, yeah, Sunderland Preston Tuesday night was number 77 of 92.
01:38It's really impressive and an incredible undertaking.
01:41I've got one question, though, having worked in the industry for a little while.
01:44How on earth did you pitch that and how on earth did you manage to get the funding for
01:47it?
01:48Yeah, it's a fair question.
01:50I first pitched it about two or three years ago, at which point my editor was like, yeah,
01:56there's a World Cup in the middle of this season, so you've got no chance.
02:00I think it probably came out of a kind of lockdown fever or post lockdown fever.
02:04I was like, right, I just want to see as much football live as I can.
02:09And we noticed that there was decent interest in EFL story.
02:14National doesn't let the championship get covered to a full extent.
02:21And I also think that English football sits at the precipice of a really interesting,
02:25in inverted commas, time in terms of finances and independent regulator and that sort of
02:30stuff.
02:31So it was kind of the perfect season to do it.
02:32Also with the change in format of the Champions League, everyone left everyone feeling a bit
02:37like unsure about what that would look like.
02:39So, yeah, I think 24-25 was the perfect season and it's gone really well.
02:44So I'm glad we did it.
02:46Has it had its ups and downs?
02:48Because that's a lot of travelling, I speak from experience, you know, I'm a Sunderland
02:52fan covering Sunderland.
02:53I love it.
02:54But sometimes when you're coming back from somewhere on a Tuesday night, having watched
02:57a pretty drab game in the cold, it can get on top of you a little bit.
03:00How have you found it generally?
03:02Yeah, it's been OK.
03:03I've tried to use trains as much as I can, because I think that kind of sort of Alan
03:09Partridge vibe of just sat in a car at midnight, driving up to a closed motorway junction is
03:16really, yeah, that's when it'll get you.
03:18Sunderland actually, weirdly, is one of the mishaps in that I was coming up for a game
03:22in January, which, so the weather where I live in Nottingham was fine and the weather
03:27in Sunderland was fine.
03:28But it was that weekend where almost every game was called off and the weather in Yorkshire,
03:32South Yorkshire, wasn't fine.
03:33So I kind of got halfway and had to come back.
03:35So this was a rearranged game to come in.
03:39A couple of those, and it's a good story.
03:41Any more than that and it would have been, yeah, it would have been a problem.
03:44But I hope we're out of that weather now.
03:47Absolutely. And in some of the pieces I've read of yours, I haven't read them all, but
03:51I've read a smattering of them for sure.
03:54You've been granted a lot of access, particularly at some of the lower league clubs.
03:57What are some of the best stories you've found?
04:00And I guess how accommodating to you have Sunderland been?
04:04Have you managed to get a peek behind the scenes or is it just sort of been watching
04:08as a layman?
04:09So for Sunderland, the idea was always sort of stemming from last season when Sunderland
04:16had the youngest average age team in the country.
04:20I think Peterborough have since overtaken that this season because of a slight, you
04:24know, a little bit more experience in the Sunderland team.
04:27But adding in Reggie and, you know, Sunderland are going to finish higher than any other,
04:34probably going to finish higher than any other team in the country that doesn't have
04:37Premier League money or parachute payment money, the highest in the 92 of any team.
04:41And I know that that might not feel relevant in the context of, oh, God, we're going to
04:46be in the top four for most of the season.
04:48And then it's about probably about playoffs.
04:50And then it's like that whole existential angst.
04:52I get that that's the focus.
04:53But I get the chance to take a step back, right, and say, hang on, what's been achieved
04:58here in the last couple of years is pretty astonishing.
05:01And particularly given where the club has come from over the last decade, I think it's
05:06a really it's a good new story.
05:08And I know that if Sunderland lose in the playoff semis or the playoff final, then
05:14everyone will kind of lose their minds because, you know, I'm a Forrest fan and we had
05:18that for 15 years as well.
05:19Like that's that's just how it goes.
05:21And that's a really difficult time to take a step back.
05:24But I think it's worth doing.
05:27The progress has been extraordinary.
05:28It's a really likeable team.
05:30It has really likeable young players in it.
05:32Yes, it doesn't always click.
05:33Yes, there's occasional, well, we look a bit blunt here and we'll come on to Preston.
05:40It's a good news story in a division where they can be quite hard to find.
05:46Yeah, it's very interesting to hear that sort of filter through to the national press.
05:51Obviously, there's a couple of names at Sunderland, the likes of Joe Bellingham, Chris
05:55Rigg. I want to talk to you a bit about the Premier League, Daniel, obviously with you
05:58being a Nottingham Forest fan.
05:59To be honest, I've never covered a club in the Premier League.
06:02It scares me.
06:02The finances scare me.
06:03Sunderland's accounts came out recently and, you know, they're making an £8 million loss,
06:07which isn't so bad when you consider that, you know, the average losses for clubs in
06:10the Championship can be £15-20 million.
06:13I think the entirety of the losses combined is something like £200-300 million.
06:17It is very hard to get promoted from the Championship to the Premier League without
06:22parachute payments, isn't it?
06:24It is, and it's even harder to stay there.
06:27You know, I know over the last couple of seasons we've seen, well, we saw all three
06:32promoted clubs go down last season.
06:34We're going to see probably all three promoted clubs go down this season.
06:38I think a few weeks ago, you'd have asked me that question, I'd have said that Leeds
06:42United are probably the litmus test for this, in that I think if they go up and also
06:47struggle again and come down again, then I think it sends a really worrying message
06:52about how to do that, because they're a massive club with big revenues, with a new
06:57owner that will spend, with the power to attract high-end players, I think, or higher
07:03end players, the most promoted clubs.
07:04So, if they go up and don't come down, then fine.
07:08If they come down, then I think we have a problem.
07:11And, look, I'm lucky in that my team has not just managed to consolidate there, but is
07:18having this mad season, most of which, or nearly all of which I'm missing.
07:22I didn't think of that, actually.
07:25Yes, the only game I've been to so far is Man City when we got battered 3-0, so I've
07:31made my peace with not going to any more games until the final day of the season.
07:36But it's taken a heck of a lot of money, you know, they have spent a huge amount of
07:40money on players, they have had to risk, because if that had gone wrong, both in terms
07:45of like FFP, PSR and, you know, and things just falling apart, then it was really hard
07:52to get back there.
07:53And I don't really know what we do.
07:56I don't think we're in a situation yet, thankfully, where clubs like Sunderland are
08:01thinking, what's the point in going up?
08:03Because I think the Premier League still holds this kind of, not just a mystique for
08:06supporters, but you're seeing the best players, the ground will be full, it is a chance
08:11to pit yourself against the best.
08:12You can consolidate there, which, you know, Sunderland know from from 90s, 2000s
08:18football is possible to do without it constantly being a slog.
08:22But give it a few more years and this conversation might be a little bit different, I
08:26think, unless something changes.
08:28The financial gap between the Championship and the Premier League is extraordinary.
08:32I was talking to Kieran Maguire, he put a figure on promotion for Sunderland at about
08:36£198 million, and that's coming straight back down as well, which is crazy.
08:41How, in your opinion, Daniel, do we bridge that gap?
08:45Because it feels to me there needs to be a little bit more trickle-down economics.
08:48Rick Parry's in the news this week speaking about, you know, what he would like to
08:51happen is the football governance bill.
08:53It's all very political and it's all very murky as well, it feels at the moment.
08:58Yeah, it is. And I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right.
09:01The redistribution of wealth is the way to do it.
09:05But these things are infinitely harder to do retrospectively than they are if you're
09:11starting from fresh and football is not a start from fresh game.
09:14There's always another season.
09:15There's always a last season.
09:16So you don't get a kind of line in the sand moment.
09:19This is as close as we're going to get to that.
09:22But effectively, you are asking for some turkeys to vote for Christmas in the Premier
09:27League. And for the good of the game, they should do that.
09:30And there will be owners in that league and there will be decision makers within clubs
09:35in that league who get it, who see the benefits.
09:38There will also be some who think, no, this is just self, why would I do anything that's
09:42not self-serving? Why would I give?
09:44And I also understand that because football over the last 20, 30 years has become a kind
09:50of capitalist, like late capitalist dream.
09:53Right. And in that dream, people don't vote for the greater good.
09:57I think there's also an argument from those clubs, and I'm more sympathetic to this.
10:01If you just give more money to the championship and League One and League Two, we'll
10:05see what has happened over the last two or three years, which is simply that that money
10:09will go into more higher wages for players, agents fees, transfer fees.
10:14It won't actually make it more sustainable because everybody's got used to
10:18non-sustainability, which is really dangerous.
10:21So I think if it does happen, it will have to come with kind of caveats and measures
10:28that the whole aim of this is to keep the English football pyramid as sustainable as
10:34possible so that all those clubs are there in 20 years time.
10:37And that's the kind of that that's been the whole overarching theme of this project is
10:43that I believe that the English football pyramid is the UK's, is England's greatest
10:49cultural asset, and we have to protect it and we can only protect it if we choose to.
10:54It doesn't just happen by itself.
10:55So these are not easy decisions.
10:58These are not things that, you know, I might consider myself an expert, but I don't have
11:02all the answers and I don't think anyone does.
11:05No, I fully agree with you.
11:06We'll come on to the Preston game just after this last question.
11:10Sunderland, they've bought young, they've tried to upskill and the model is to sell
11:15high, to utilise the academy.
11:18That's the way of getting to the Premier League, which is dubbed sustainable.
11:23The two teams that come to mind and that Sunderland fans tend to mention quite often are
11:27Brighton and Bredford.
11:29Do Sunderland feel like that sort of club to you now they have the potential to go on
11:34and emulate those models?
11:35Obviously, Brighton and Bredford are very far advanced and where they are at the moment,
11:39the figures that they're paying for players and the level that they're operating is way
11:43beyond Sunderland at the moment.
11:44But it does feel like Sunderland are trying to sort of create their own version of that
11:48in the championship.
11:50Yeah, and look, they're not alone in doing that, which suggests that it is the right
11:55way to do it. I think Sunderland are different to those clubs because there's both, you
12:02know, a historic level of success and I'm talking decades and decades and decades ago
12:07and also a relatively recent level of success.
12:11And I think that changes the mindset within clubs and certainly changes the mindset of
12:16supporters. At both Brighton and Bredford, there was recent history of being in the
12:21fourth tier. There was very much a blank canvas to build from.
12:26There weren't, you know, supporter numbers weren't huge when that project began.
12:30Expectation wasn't huge.
12:33The difference with a club like Sunderland, I think, is that when you are fourth in the
12:37championship, you can smell the Premier League and it inevitably makes you impatient.
12:42That's just human nature because you remember it.
12:45Whereas Brighton and Bredford didn't have that.
12:47So they were able to, you know, Bredford were able to lose a playoff final, for example,
12:53and it not cause everyone to lose their minds and it just be part of the process.
12:57They were very much process driven clubs.
12:59I think Sunderland probably slightly struggle with that, but the principles are the same
13:04in terms of, you know, scout well, recruit well, buy low, develop well, sell high.
13:10They're the kind of five principles, five pillars of those projects.
13:13And Sunderland look to be doing that really well.
13:18At the moment, they've only really got to the development stage.
13:21I think that's fair to say because they've not felt they needed to sell one of those
13:26crown jewels. And that's the hardest bit of those projects is selling the players,
13:31accepting selling them and then reinvesting well, because, you know, a club like Southampton
13:36tried this in the Premier League and were brilliant at it until they weren't and sold
13:40players. And then eventually they bought badly and everything fell apart.
13:44And that's how it can happen.
13:45So I think I'd say Sunderland are already part way along that road, but they've not
13:49done anything wrong so far.
13:50And that's, you know, lots of other clubs have.
13:53Yeah, that expectation element of Sunderland's psyche really does intrigue me because, you
13:58know, within everybody's living memory, pretty much when Sunderland are in the championship,
14:02they are competing.
14:03So to finish 16th like they did last season, which was a really poor season, you know,
14:08that came with a lot of heat, a lot of scrutiny.
14:11And in fairness to Sunderland, they did stick with what they were doing.
14:14And they deserve credit for that, in my opinion, although at the time I was probably
14:19questioning things quite heavily.
14:21We'll move on to the Preston game.
14:22Regis Debris went 4-4-2, Preston went 5-0 at the back.
14:27It was an interesting sort of tactical battle.
14:29I thought Sunderland, Daniel probably lost a little bit of control in that midfield.
14:33The ball wasn't really sticking.
14:34I don't know how much Sunderland you've watched this season, whether you've seen them play
14:374-3-3 or not, but it was a strange one in the sense that a lot of Sunderland supporters
14:43have wanted to see Le Brice make that 4-4-2 formation work at home.
14:48It did work against Sheffield United earlier on in the season, on New Year's Day, but against
14:53Preston, I think it showed its fragilities, that formation, when it doesn't quite work.
14:58Yeah, I mean, it relies on being potent with the ball, doesn't it?
15:02And I think the danger of, I always think with a 4-4-2, you end up having to be more
15:09direct because effectively what you're trying to do is isolate one of the forwards against
15:13one of the central defenders.
15:14And to do that, you have to get the ball up the pitch quite quickly.
15:17That's not something that, and this is not a criticism, just an observation, but that's
15:20not something Sunderland always try to do.
15:23They like to be able to pass from side to side, look for space, try and get one of those
15:27wide players one-on-one, try and get one of the central midfielders driving forward into
15:32space. And that takes time because teams, particularly those managed by Paul Heckingbottom,
15:37are really organised off the ball.
15:40And as you alluded to there, I also think out of possession, it did make it slightly
15:44easier to play through in midfield.
15:46I think because with the 4-4-2, they understood they had to be direct, so they were constantly
15:50thinking, we need to win the ball back here.
15:52We need to win the ball back.
15:53Actually, a really clever opponent can look for the right pass and can pass through you.
15:58And as you're trying to win back the ball, suddenly it's 30, 40 yards from your own goal
16:01and you've got far too many men ahead of the ball.
16:04Yeah, I didn't think it really worked.
16:06I think it was worth a go because I don't think Sunderland are going to finish in the
16:10top two and I don't think they're going to finish outside the top six.
16:13Therefore, everything now is geared towards peaking in the play-offs.
16:18And if that means trying different formations, looking at almost treating games, although
16:22fans don't want to hear it, half like training games, you're trying to work out, right, if
16:27we play this opponent in the play-offs, would this formation work?
16:29What were the faults? What were the strengths?
16:31I'm all for that because the last thing you want to do is get to a play-off semi-final
16:36second leg and think, OK, I think we need to go 4-4-2 here and no one's played it before
16:40or not played it much.
16:41So, I think it was worth a go.
16:43But yeah, I don't think it really worked.
16:46And what did you make of Sunderland's midfield?
16:48You touched a little bit on it then, Daniel.
16:50It was a start in the midfield of Dan Neil and Joe Bellingham.
16:54Joe Bellingham, obviously, the more high-profile name in that line-up, but I really
17:00like Dan Neil, captain in his boyhood club at 23 years old.
17:03I think he's got over 100 and more appearances for the first team.
17:08He's a player I really, really like.
17:10And your thoughts on Job as well, actually, because I've really enjoyed watching Job's
17:14career arc at Sunderland.
17:15It's actually been a pleasure at times.
17:17He is brilliant beyond his years.
17:19He's wise beyond his years.
17:20If I had one small criticism of him, though, it would be that he needs to release the ball a touch
17:26quicker. I think that might be the difference between the Championship and the top level.
17:30I do think he's got time to work on that and I do think it will come.
17:33But I just thought it was a little bit noticeable against Preston that the ball stuck in
17:37midfield a little bit too long for me.
17:40Yeah, I would agree with that.
17:42I think he's a player who looks better when the team is winning than when it's kind of
17:51chasing games because, yeah, especially as soon as you went 1-0 down, that became more
17:57noticeable that the ball needed to be moved quicker.
18:00You know, we just talked about, like, direct football in 4-4-2.
18:03What it needs is players constantly playing the ball into feet and getting it back.
18:07And that happened a few times, but it happened more toward, you know, in your own half, you
18:12know, trying to knit together a move than it actually did 30-40 yards in Preston's goal.
18:17So, yes, I would agree with that.
18:19I really like Daniel.
18:21I love all those players who I think they add something beyond their ability to a team.
18:26They are so much more vital than fans realise.
18:31I think they're the sort of players being kind of sweeping here.
18:35I think the sort of players that match going supporters tend to appreciate more than online
18:39supporters because I think you get a sense of a game.
18:42You can sort of see what those players are doing off the ball.
18:45You can see how they're directing people around them that you just don't get from TV.
18:51And, yeah, and teams and squads are worse without those players.
18:55They become kind of the managers on the pitch, I think.
18:58And, yeah, Dan's got that.
19:00And, yeah, long may they continue.
19:02It's really interesting.
19:03These are the sort of players that when they come out of the championship, like I look at, let's say, Ipswich with Sam Morsi and Forest with Brian Yates.
19:09And these are the sort of players that fans think, well, we're going to spend 100 million so they won't be in the team anymore.
19:15And you notice if a team starts badly, suddenly those players gravitate back towards the team and the team becomes stronger again because it's not just about ability.
19:24And all those players, including Dan, have it.
19:27It's about kind of attitude and like, yeah, just a sense of connection with the club.
19:33And that matters.
19:35Yeah, it does.
19:36I'll ask this next question, Dan, sort of without context, because I'm really, really interested to hear what you have to say from a perspective of not watching Sunderland week to week.
19:45But what did you make of Anthony Patterson's performance, particularly his kicking?
19:48Did it stand out for you for any reason?
19:52I think there is still a sense, even though this has been coming for three or four years in football in general, I think there is still a hardwired sense.
20:02It's impossible to shift where when you are a supporter of a team at the game, you can't not wince when a goalkeeper invites pressure.
20:12Like, we're just used to that looking like an accident wanting to happen, aren't we?
20:17And it's not going to change.
20:20We're going to have to get used to it.
20:22Football is not going to change in that sense, I don't think, or certainly not for a while.
20:27So we're going to have to get used to it.
20:28And I think sometimes that wincing kind of clouds the good things that goalkeepers do with that.
20:35He's clearly, in inverted commas, like a modern goalkeeper, isn't he?
20:38He's clearly someone where that has shifted from he's just, does he stop shots going in, to is he able to, you know, is he able to be the first playmaker close to our own goal?
20:53There are occasional moments when he does, like, make me yip a little bit.
20:56There was that one where the cross came into the box and he sort of let it hit his knee and it like went 10 yards away from him.
21:03That was a heart in the mouth moment, that really was.
21:05Yeah, I mean, he was, I don't know if he knew that there was no one around, but he was fairly lucky that there wasn't anyone else in the penalty area because it went, as I say, it went sort of five, 10 yards away from him.
21:14And then he kind of gobbled it up and started again.
21:15But I think that comes from the fact that they're taught that as soon as the cross comes in, they're thinking, where's the next pass?
21:21Where's the quick ball out?
21:23And you do need those goalkeepers to be quick because I've seen teams this season where they're trying to play that passing out from the football and the goalkeeper is clearly absolutely not comfortable in any way with it.
21:33And I'm talking more League One, League Two here, and it really slows down the game.
21:37It really makes it so much easier for that team to defend against because by the time the goalkeepers, like, picked his pass and worked out what he's doing, oppositions are in their shape and it's really hard to defend against those shapes.
21:49So, yeah, I feel for him a little bit because it does sort of still feel in the stadium like people are thinking, oh, no, is this going to work out?
22:00Is he going to make a mistake?
22:00Which is kind of unfair because other than that one little drop and pick up, he didn't really make a mistake at all.
22:07Yeah, and in terms of how does the season or mistakes directly result in a goal, it's very, very minimal, to be honest.
22:16I think, obviously, when you're a goalkeeper, everything's magnified, isn't it?
22:20It really, really is.
22:21I do think he needs to possibly work on command in his area a little bit better.
22:25I think his distribution is just standard for a championship goalkeeper.
22:28I think with Paterson, we perhaps thought that he had a higher ceiling than maybe he does.
22:33Perhaps he'll kick on again.
22:34Maybe I'm wrong on that, but it just feels like he stagnated a little bit.
22:37However, he is still a fantastic shot stopper and very competent, in my opinion, in the championship.
22:43I do find it fascinating though, Daniel, that when you're a homegrown player, the psychology of that with fans, there always seems to be a moment with a homegrown player or a little spell where fans are sort of increasingly on the back more than they would an external player.
23:00It's weird that, isn't it?
23:01Have you noticed that generally just around the clubs over the years?
23:05Yeah, I think that's true.
23:06It's certainly true at my own club.
23:07I mean, also with Anthony, he's got this thing and it won't be a conscious thing.
23:12But there's definitely an element of, right, Sunderland, England's number one goalkeeper for most of the last decade, is a Sunderland lad who came through the team.
23:23Inevitably, that creates this pressure of like, we want to find the next Jordan Pitford.
23:27We want Anthony breaks into the team and suddenly we're like, that's who we want him to be.
23:31He wants to be this kind of, you know, he wants to be the best goalkeeper in the country, which Jordan has been for quite a long time.
23:38So that doesn't help.
23:39But yeah, you're absolutely right.
23:41That I think it's because with other players, with players who come in, particularly those from abroad, I still think we try and work out, is this a player who's going to show as he cares with skill?
23:52Is he going to show as he cares through like heart and endeavour?
23:56And with those homegrown players or those club players, that's like the heart and endeavour is taken as a given.
24:02So we end up overly focusing on like, how skillful are they?
24:06Like, are they technically good enough?
24:08Like, are they doing everything right?
24:09It's really harsh because inevitably they're in the team for a reason.
24:14You know, a series of repeatedly managers, different managers often, have picked this player for a reason.
24:20It's not because they think, oh yeah, he's got mates that sit in the stands or his family come to watch every game.
24:25It's because they think they're good enough.
24:26So let's probably try and cut them some slack, I guess.
24:30Yeah, I do feel for Patterson.
24:31You mentioned the Pickford thing and the expectations surrounding that, but he's actually been sort of pushed in the minds of Sunderland fans by Matty Young, who's an 18-year-old England international.
24:43He's out on loan at Salford at the moment.
24:45He broke into their team earlier this season.
24:46He isn't being played at the moment, but by all accounts, he's the sort of next cab off the rank.
24:51And a lot of the comments among Sunderland supporters are, you know, sell Patterson, get Young in and all of that.
24:56It's never that simple.
24:57Young's a very, very inexperienced goalkeeper.
25:00But he's probably got it from both ends, which is unfortunate.
25:03Let's talk about that time-wasted incident in the second half, Daniel.
25:07I feel it would be remiss of us not to touch on that.
25:10I honestly thought that was extraordinary.
25:12I don't tend to get that vexed because you try to be professional and you try to just get your head down and report on what's in front of you.
25:19But I was livid, to be honest.
25:21I mean, Ryan Porteous goes down, for those who haven't seen it, in Sunderland's penalty area.
25:27The game sort of continues for a couple of seconds.
25:29The referee then pulls it back for a head injury.
25:32As soon as the referee blows his whistle, Porteous is straight up.
25:34There's then a couple of instances of more time wasted with substitutions.
25:39Sunderland are trying to get players, Preston plays off the pitch.
25:42Mepham in, I think, 09 had a little word with the referee.
25:45Then you have this extraordinary situation where Preston weren't ready to make a substitution, but the game was still stopped.
25:50And then Preston also had 12 plays on the pitch at one point.
25:54It felt like referee Lewis Smith just sort of lost control of it all.
25:58It was bizarre.
26:00And I think, I mean, he did add it on in the end.
26:02He added it on in nine minutes.
26:04But I think we counted about five minutes lost in the game.
26:07It was bizarre.
26:09What was your take on it?
26:11Yeah, I mean, all season, I've noticed the whole goalkeeper going down for team talk, and I've noticed more and more this sort of incredibly blatant
26:21just, oh, I'm going to go down.
26:23I'm just going to sit down and knowing that the referee has to stop the game.
26:27And to be honest, I felt for Lewis Smith because I don't think there's anything he can do.
26:32Like, I don't think, like it's instructive that Ryan Porteous went down with a head injury, right?
26:38So that meant that he had to stop the game because if it had been a potential muscle injury or cramp, he could have just played on.
26:46Like, that's his discretion and fine.
26:48But once it's a head injury, he has to stop the game.
26:51Even though I don't think particularly there's anything wrong with Ryan Porteous, but he doesn't know that.
26:55And we don't know that, quite frankly.
26:56And he did come off fine.
26:58But once that happens, you're then not allowed to restart the game until everybody is ready 11 v 11.
27:05And Grestin and Paul Hackenbottom is a kind of wily manager at this.
27:11We know this.
27:12And it was just this, like, bizarre series of events, as you say.
27:16And I suspect, you know, referees and the fourth official were saying, like, we need to get going here.
27:22Come on, come on, come on.
27:23But again, there's effectively nothing you can do.
27:26The only thing you could do is try and book someone for time wasting.
27:29But, like, there was so many different moving parts or non-moving parts of people sat down that, like, it sets a precedent.
27:37If you book a player and say, I think you're faking this injury and the player then goes off.
27:41And it just, I just think it's really hard to do.
27:44But, yeah, I watched it thinking, like, A, this is absolute madness.
27:50And B, but I also thought, like, this could happen at every game I go and watch.
27:55Like, having seen that, I mean, right, let's face it.
27:59The saving grace in all this is that two minutes after Preston, like, shamefully wasted five minutes of a game,
28:07they then conceded an absolute screamer because they weren't particularly organized out of possession,
28:11which is, like, you know, I'm non-biased this season, but I was like, thank you.
28:15Thanks for that happening because you've been punished for what you've done.
28:19That was, like, that was good. That was, like, good karma.
28:22But, God, it was so frustrating. Even as a neutral, I was like, this is so, like, nothing is happening.
28:27People are just sat waiting. And as you say, like, one minute became two, became three, became four, became five.
28:32And I was like, this is like, you know, this is a third of a half time we've been waiting for a game to play to restart.
28:38It was extraordinary.
28:40Yeah, I thought it was interesting, actually, that sort of Regis Lebris was asked about it,
28:43and he had a little bit of a joke that it would be difficult to play against 12 men,
28:48referencing when Preston have 12 players on the pitch.
28:51But Paul Heckenbottom actually was vexed after the game with the referee
28:55because I think Preston actually conceded when they had one less player on the field.
29:00So, very rarely do you get both managers fuming at the same referee decision, which I thought was interesting.
29:10That goal, though, that you mentioned, Romain Mundell, was fantastic, a brilliant strike.
29:14He's obviously a former Tottenham player.
29:16Did a magnificent job earlier on in the season of replacing Jack Clarke,
29:19who went to Ipswich Town for very big money from a Sunderland perspective.
29:23Struggled with injury issues as well, but now he's back.
29:25How impressed were you with Romain Mundell?
29:28I mean, it was one of the best goals I've seen in the season.
29:32You know, you sat where we are in the press box at Sunderland, you sat right behind that.
29:38You can see the curl, you could see Woodman kind of look as if to think,
29:44yeah, I'm sure, I mean, he barely dived properly because he was just like,
29:48I'm just not going to get there. The curl and the whip on the ball, the pace at which he did it as well.
29:52It wasn't just a kind of speculative curling shot.
29:54He was kind of whipping that into the top corner, looked beautiful as it comes off the post.
30:00It was, yeah, as I say, it's one of the best goals I've seen this season.
30:04He's a kind of fits and starts player, Romain.
30:07A series of youth coaches have absolutely loved his ability.
30:11There's no doubt that the peak of his power is really, really high.
30:16He just needs to find that consistency and in his defence,
30:20there have been injury issues that have stopped that happening for a consistent basis.
30:24He's not had a full run in the team enough.
30:28But yeah, he's a kind of perfect off the bench player,
30:32I guess, in like playoff situations, right, in that you think if you need a goal,
30:36he can create a spark out of nothing and it might not work.
30:39But yeah, last night it was just,
30:42it was a ridiculous goal in terms of the power and whip at the same time.
30:45And Woodman, you know, you often think like, is a keeper badly positioned?
30:49Have they not got the diving quick enough? But it's just completely unsaveable.
30:53Yeah, it was a great strike.
30:55Well, we'll start rounding off the podcast, Daniel,
30:57because I know you've got travelling to do, but tell me where are you going next?
31:01And where can we read your piece on Sunderland? When's that due?
31:05Yeah, so as I say, 77 is last night.
31:08I'm at QPR Leeds on Saturday lunchtime.
31:12And then, yeah, and then we enter international break.
31:15So I think it's Carlisle after that on the 22nd, the following weekend.
31:20And yeah, Carlisle are an interesting story at the moment as well.
31:24Actually, there might be some traction.
31:27There's a number of clubs, like to let you behind the curtain,
31:29and there's a number of clubs that I've kind of pushed
31:31and waited till the end of the season for obvious reasons.
31:34Sunderland ended up being won because of weather,
31:36but actually works really nicely, I think.
31:38And the bottom of the league too, like I've not done Trammey yet,
31:41and I've not done Carlisle yet, and that's for obvious reasons,
31:43because there are things happening at those clubs that are,
31:47yeah, are blowing supporters' minds.
31:49So yeah, that's a good one to get to.
31:52And yeah, the Sunderland piece is going to be out in a couple of weeks.
31:56I am going to take, I want to do it properly.
31:59So I'll always, you know, I'll speak to supporters.
32:01I will kind of work out the lie of the land.
32:04It's nice to get to do a wholly positive piece about Sunderland,
32:08if I can make that joke, because I've written about them
32:12plenty of times over the last decade, and quite often you sort of,
32:15you just want to shake the club and say, there's so much potential here.
32:18Look at what you've got. Look at how you can make the most of it.
32:20Look at the academy. Look at the ground. Look at everything.
32:22Like, how are you not getting this right?
32:25And I honestly believe, whatever happens the rest of the season,
32:28I honestly believe that, yeah, they are getting it right now,
32:31which is really nice.
32:33You know, I don't want to be this kind of grim reaper
32:36going around the country to Trammey and Carlisle and saying,
32:39oh God, this is broken and this owner's bad.
32:41It's nice to be able to do the opposite.
32:44Absolutely. And tell us where we can find you on social media
32:46and your work more generally as well.
32:49Yeah, so the website is theipaper.com.
32:52You can search for doing the 92 Daniel Story
32:54and I'm on X at Daniel Story 85.
32:58Brilliant. Well, thank you for joining me, Daniel.
33:00It's been a pleasure. I wish you luck with the rest of the ground
33:03hopping for the rest of the season.
33:04Thank you to the listener for joining us.
33:06You can head over to the Southern Letgo website
33:08for all the latest ahead of the Coventry game.
33:09Make sure you check out Daniel's work as well.
33:12Thanks once again for joining.