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00:00He was called the evil genius, the Maradona of Nigerian politics, the man who shaped an era,
00:05and now General Ibrahim Badamusi Babangida is telling a side of the story.
00:19Has General Ibrahim Babangida finally answered some of the nation's toughest questions?
00:24Or is his book, A Journey in Service, another carefully crafted political play?
00:29Today, we'll be diving into this with our political editor and our news editor.
00:33We want to know if this book is a confessional or a carefully crafted defense.
00:39Diving into this topic with us today, the political editor of The Guardian, Mr. Muyiwa Adeyemi.
00:43Thank you for joining us.
00:44Thank you very much.
00:45On my left is our news editor, Mr. Olaye Temitope, who we fondly call Templar here at The Guardian.
00:53Thank you for joining us.
00:54Thank you for having me.
00:56This is not the first time that we're having our political gladiator release a memoir,
01:01an autobiography.
01:03When you heard about Babangida's book, what was the first thing that crossed your mind?
01:08Mr. Muyiwa.
01:09I think the first thing that crossed my mind is for him to come out and authenticate,
01:15firstly, some of those things we know, then to shed more light on some grey areas about his
01:23administration. Because if he had the opportunity of living up to now, 32 years after, I think,
01:30that annulment, so it should be an opportunity for him, I think, to come out and talk to people
01:36what actually happened, what went wrong, and maybe there's some information that we didn't know.
01:43But for somebody at the driver's seat, he knew because he was, I think, the one that
01:50in charge of the country there. So we expected him to, I think, come out clean and clear on how
01:56those things happened. So that was what I had in mind. But unfortunately, I think he has not done
02:04justice to that. It's quite unfortunate. Because there are a lot of grey areas that people are
02:10still asking. It's such a book. It was taking you almost a few years to write a book. I think with
02:15facts and everything available to you. But we expected you to tell Nigerians, not only to say
02:22they're taking responsibility, taking responsibility for what we know, right? But you would have come
02:28clean and clear to tell us, especially about June 12th, right? I think, why did you leave
02:36Abacha behind, right? In the book, I think, if we didn't picture it, talking about his government
02:43and June 12th, I think that's between pages 251 and 440. So you read, I think, all those,
02:51how he tried to chronicle, I think, the roles he played and he didn't play. But as many Nigerians
02:58have been talking about, there was a time he saw that, you know, Abacha was somebody who can be
03:04trusted, right? But no, he admitted that the guy saved his life. He admitted that the guy,
03:10I think, also risked his life, I think, for his crew of 1985 to survive, right? He admitted those
03:16things. Yes. Do you understand? But there was a time he was saying that, well, even Abacha is
03:22somebody that you may not be able to trust because you may not know much about him. He said you were
03:26friendly, but at the same time, it's not somebody you can actually say this direction he is going.
03:32So people were saying that, well, you were leaving, do you understand? And why did you leave him
03:39behind? Why? Secondly, how would somebody, you were saying, after June 12th or June 14th,
03:49without your knowledge, without your permission, somebody called the Electoral Empire to say they
03:54will stop announcing, do you understand? And without informing you. Yes, all that thoughts,
04:00I would come back to that. Okay. And speaking of gray areas, I think, you know what, generally,
04:05right? Yes, sir. I expected it's a PR book. Ah. Yes. And tell me one individual that have come,
04:15do you understand, at least to blame himself, in his book, he wrote himself. Good. So the man just
04:22came with what you are saying, let me say my own, let the audience continue to contest in the
04:29public space. But purely a PR book, do you understand, only good for students of political
04:36history for analysis. So you expected this to be more of a confessional and give more insights,
04:42more than what he gave you. There were no confessions, but he gave insights, do you
04:46understand, to not, not a controversial aspect of his administration. So it was an insight.
04:55I think I wouldn't want to admit, because when I was reading about the People's Bank,
05:01about Community Bank, about Mansa, you know, about the D3, about some major decisions the
05:09government took, even to the SAP, right? So I think, which was a product of, after a long debate
05:14in the country, I could remember those periods and, you know, and with the IMF matter. So for
05:20them now, the experts around him, Dikai Kaliwanko, to come and follow him, to come with the SAP
05:25structural adjustment program, do you understand? So I think it refreshes one's memory of what
05:30happened in those periods. I think it gives an insight, but those controversial areas about
05:35his administration, right, I think it didn't do justice to that. Speaking of happenings,
05:40I mean, there were significant things that we could not help but discuss. And I think one of
05:44the first ones is the death of a journalist, Mr. Adelie Giwa, who was murdered via a parcel bomb
05:50in 1986. Mr. Templer, do you think it dived into this, or do you think it was significant enough
05:57for him to have addressed in his book? Thank you. Before going to the specifics of the detail I know
06:06about that incident, taking off from where he left off, let me just say, why now? Why should we have
06:16the book? Looking at Nigeria's political history to date, I think there are only four to five
06:26epochal moments in the life of this nation. If you take it back to from 1914, where we had the
06:36amalgamation between the Northern Protectorate and Southern Protectorate, then you have October 1,
06:421960, where we had the independence law. The First Republic, the coup, and all those were
06:50moments, but they were not actually epochal moments like when we have the June 12, 1993.
06:58And that was the turnaround, the rebirth from where the country began to search for the way
07:07forward out of the ashes of that crisis. And also, if you have the person who was at the forefront
07:15of that incident, coming out 32 years after to say, this is my testimony. There is no good or bad
07:25story. You only have three sides. The truth, you only have my side, your side, and the truth.
07:34So it's a middle point between who is telling the story, who witnesses the story, and what is the
07:42truth. Like the fable about the lion, that the story of the lion will never glorify
07:57the lion, except if told. The story of the lion is always told by the hunter.
08:04So it always glorifies the hunter, not the lion. So everybody has to speak its truth.
08:10And my only doubt or misgiving about the book and why now, is the fact that
08:23well, I'm aware of the fact that there's no perfect story. It will glorify who's writing it,
08:31like you said, the PR. It could also answer some searching questions. But the only
08:40thing I have about the why now, is that there's a robust saying that it's only
08:49someone who wants to hide the truth that will tell you that all my witnesses are dead.
08:55You know, so when you are bringing out such information, running out of such information
09:01about something as important as that epochal moment of our nation's history, and many of those
09:07listed, many of those mentioned, many of those were characters in that narrative are all dead.
09:13So it's like, it's like whatever the Maradona says,
09:25it's not about what has happened, but about how it is remembered. So I think we are shaping how
09:30this is being remembered. So now, to now come into the question about the Deleguer incident.
09:37As a student of history and a student of mass communication, that incident also,
09:49apart from the annulment of the election, was another significant moment of the nearly 12 years
09:57of his administration. And my own comment, because I would defer to Mahebon, to who was
10:07witness to that history. We only read it in the books. But I was listening to Femi Falano last
10:17night, and how he picked up that incident to say no matter what was written in that book,
10:25the motive, the actions, the inactions, and everything around General Aibibi had shown that
10:35he was not truthful to unraveling the mystery of that death. And if you are a leader,
10:44the buck stops at the table, and we had such novelty, a later bump. It's just like
10:52when the former president, Gullo Jonathan, was in office, and from nowhere we had such
10:59mass incidents of kidnapping, Chibol girls. It reverberated around the country, around the world,
11:05sorry. You know, we had bring back the girls everywhere, you know, because that was, it had
11:11never happened before. Yes, we had pockets of kidnapping, you know, ransom, kidnap for ransom,
11:17but in one first swoop, having 214 girls, or even 74 girls, you know, so that was the same
11:24with the death of Delegiwa, a later bump. And Femi Falano said, even you could excuse that, okay,
11:35it was military rule, and he had to do what he had to do. At the advent of democracy in 1999,
11:43the president, Ulusegbe Gombasho, set up the Oputa panel to investigate, you know,
11:52atrocities committed under the military rule, and which dated back to the regime of
11:57IBB, including Abacha. And he not only spawned an invitation to attend that panel, he made sure
12:07he not only, he didn't attend, he didn't send anybody, and all matters, all those who came
12:14forward with evidence, including the legal counsel of the deceased, the famed Ghanifa Weyemi,
12:26brought all documents to the panel. He could have answered some of those questions. So there was no
12:32answer he could have given in this book, going back to what I said, that all your witnesses are
12:40dead, and so I can't believe whatever you're writing in that book, because at the time when
12:45they gave you the opportunity to come and answer, he didn't. He didn't take it, so it was a mere
12:49deflection. Yes, just like you mentioned before, you touched on the annulment of 1993 election of
12:58Mosul Abiola. Yes. During the launch of this book, he addressed this and took responsibility
13:04and apologized, but most people on social media are saying he lacked depth, and they said his
13:11statement lacked remorse. What do you think they want to hear from Baba? What do you think
13:17we would rather like to hear from Baba Ngida? You know, when you are croaking such events,
13:23and you tried as well to, let's say, let Nigerians know some decisions your abjection took.
13:33Yes. You understand? But the pause of Nigerians, implication of such decision on Nigerians,
13:42the effects that single action had on Nigerians, lives that were lost, right?
13:50Right? He never acknowledged those things, that many lives were lost. Yes. He never acknowledged
13:56that many properties were bought. He never acknowledged how people were killed,
14:04because in these legal states are many parts of the country. So he never acknowledged the economy,
14:10how the whole thing affected the economy. Do you understand? So he just took it like a very
14:17something very light. I think we are talking of an event, do you understand, that changed the
14:27whole economy for worse. Affected it for worse, nothing good, do you understand? Hospitals filled
14:35up with cuffs, cuffs of people. How do you explain that one? Do you understand? So how would you
14:42write such a book, do you understand, without looking at how it affected Nigerians, the economy,
14:47everything? So, you know, it was the impact as depicted in that book was like you are writing
14:54from, I think, from a movie, do you understand? It's not something that people felt the impact
15:01of your action. Now, this June 12th we're talking about, he never bothered to tell Nigerians how
15:06much they wasted, do you understand? You know, this is the man that we're changing goalposts,
15:15right? The first primary was held, won by Siroma and Yeradwa, the senior Yeradwa, do you understand?
15:22He cancelled it, that's it, that's starting all over, right? So it was changing, I think, the time
15:31to hand over about two or three times. So all the money spent during those periods never accounted
15:39for it. Now, even on this June 12th, you started with the political bureau, you built a threat for
15:46the two parties, you ensured that, I think, the money people were not that induced, I think, to
15:53level, as he put in the book, do you understand? A lot of money was spent. At the end of the day,
16:00you were not telling us when people announced, do you understand, that they should stop
16:06releasing results without your knowledge or approval, and nothing happened in the military.
16:12He said that Sonny Ebacha went ahead without his approval, that he was out of state at the time.
16:17No, no, no, no, not before he went out of state. On the 14th, when they stopped, then they asked
16:24of Frimusu to stop the announcement. He was harassed, right? He said,
16:31Fritz Columbus is here, and he now said by 22, by 20, he went to MENA, I'm quoting from the book,
16:40right? He went to MENA to start a reflection on what was actually happening, but on the 22nd,
16:49he went to Katsina, do you understand? But what was in Katsina? That's why they announced the
16:56announcement. How could anybody, I think in the paper, I think in the press that was never signed,
17:01would have done that with you as a military, I'm not talking about the president of the country,
17:07as a military man. You know what, that's what I'm saying, that we never knew military to be such
17:13a disorganized organization that I think subordinates would take action, such an action,
17:22do you understand, without reference or without permission, order from the above. He said in the
17:29book how some people are tried not for the election to vote, and how he told the electoral officer
17:38that he should go ahead with that election. So, he was telling us this, all what he did,
17:43but when you election, all that must hold, despite every step to stop it. But now,
17:52enough with the book, he reminded us how the electoral body had a big board, do you understand,
18:01on the front of the office. So, as the results were coming, they were displaying it,
18:06they would have had about 14 states, from 19, I think we were having that time. So, with that one,
18:12the result of 14 states had been displayed, and somehow by June 14, according to his book,
18:19somewhere, he had that they should stop announcing, and they opened the door for,
18:25and the military man or one officer that gave such instruction was not executed immediately,
18:33according to the military, he was not jailed, and he was allowed to go. So, until they began their
18:39action, you know, I think, you know what, but he refused to also let us know that he was calling,
18:46there were information, and we have records, that he was calling Abasha Khalifa before he left
18:52office. Wow. Do you understand? So, if we're calling Khalifa, Abasha Khalifa, do you understand,
18:58why didn't, why are you calling him Khalifa? You know that he was the one that you said released
19:05his life. For you. For you, twice, right? He was paid 85, to make sure the coup succeed.
19:13So, meaning that he helped you out to succeed, so you also have to hand over to, because it's what,
19:21whenever you are going, you have to hand over to me. But they didn't tell Nigerians,
19:25they kind of banged in the head. Yes, speaking of his understanding of the military role, I mean,
19:29we cannot deny that he fully understood, because he was in the center of military coups between
19:351966 to his takeover in 1985. Do you think he, at any point, regrets maybe how he handled things
19:47between these years? You know what, he was only saying, I take responsibility. Do you understand?
19:56And he was saying that, that was a, that was a, he was naive. Do you understand? You know, he was,
20:05he was putting such errors as an honest mistake, maybe out of ignorance. But between the period
20:12he was involved in coup planning, right, I think whether he didn't regret those actions in the book,
20:18because he thought he was a normal military saint, which was a vote. You know what, we can, all of us
20:24can begin to condemn such now, because we now begin to experience democracy, right? I think for some,
20:30for people that maybe had been in school, I think in 70s, do you understand? 60s, 70s, until 80s,
20:38so it's a regular, it's a normal thing. Do you understand? We just wake up one morning, or midnight, we're high,
20:45and so, so, so, so, so, so. Once by seven o'clock in the morning, once we, radio Nigeria was the only
20:52radio station then, do you understand? So once we hear the national anthem, followed by military
20:58song, you know that it has happened again. So, do you understand? So, I was struck again.
21:07During 1960s to 1985 and everything that went down, is framing it as something needed for
21:13national stability at the time? No, you know what, because they refused to hand over to the civilian,
21:20yes, and that was the reason they removed Yakubu. Yakubu promised to hand over in 75,
21:30do you understand? And everybody had ready for him to conduct an election, simply because
21:39Yakubu, I think, had changed his mind. Now, painting the scenario as if the politicians
21:47have not learned any lesson or they were not ready, which of course made Obama never want to leave his
21:53cabinet, right? I think those are the things that made Babangida Anko to strike, do you understand?
22:00To remove Yakubu, simply because he wanted to become, I think, a, a, transferred him to be a
22:08permanent head of state, just like Idi Ami Anko. That was the reason. But he himself, do you see
22:15how he dribbled the country for 80 years? That's what they call him, Maradona. When he first came,
22:22he didn't explain that again in the book. He said they were not going to spend more than three or four years.
22:26That was the impression he gave. But no, he blamed, he blamed the passenger that he handed over
22:32already. That's why he could not get it right. Do you understand? When the passenger left, he left in 79.
22:36That's why they had to come back again in 1983. Just, you know, four and a half years, December.
22:42Do you understand? Yes, four years, because he left already. So, but this time around, they were going to do
22:48five years, and the man did 80 years at the end of the day, even with the experiment, with so much
22:55money spent. Do you understand that everything went down the drain? And the country, I think when,
23:02he left, he left the country worse, I think, no matter how the reforms. You know, to me, you know,
23:08I don't know what happened to him. And I'm telling you that it's true, because if you see where the
23:11structure is, if you see, I think on the flip side, I don't want to be so aggressive about saying throughout,
23:17right? Somebody that came, and they tried to assemble a lot of experts to look at the economy.
23:24You know, this man came when Buhari was, Buhari was overthrown. Yes. For him to come.
23:32And throughout the tale of Buhari, Nigeria were keen on to buy milk, sugar, because there's nothing
23:38on grant. Economy had been, was in a poor state level when Buhari came. So he now tried to solve
23:47those problems. Do you understand what I'm saying? Government cannot continue, at least to fix
23:52everything. So let's open the economy. That's why you, the idea of this SAP was coming, did not
24:01begin to allow, I think, more people to go into banking. You can see we're not starting your bank.
24:07We're not giving license to start their radio, television stations, before it was only government.
24:12So those things that were only government, those that were in China, he opened them up for
24:18private to participate. So in case some of those policies, even the SAP, we are talking about,
24:26go and look at what he was trying to do in SAP, and what the present administration is doing now.
24:32You can see they are doing almost the same thing. Because everything about SAP then is reduce
24:39government intervention in provision of infrastructure. Do you understand? And not only
24:48infrastructure, in economy. Do you understand? These 4X we're talking about, it's part of what he did.
24:54And the government should not fix price again, allows demand and supply to fix the price.
25:01Exactly what they are doing now. But they could not see it through. And what do I say that SAP
25:05then did not have human face. Do you understand? But the human face he was trying to provide them
25:10was like people's bank, headed by Taisho Nari, a great man. Do you understand? Like community bank.
25:16But not the kind of, what we have now of cash transfer. Do you understand?
25:21And the bags of rice.
25:22The bag of rice they are giving. No, they didn't do that one. Do you understand? But that time also,
25:27they stopped importation of wheat. They stopped importation. Do you understand?
25:33Of government officials from using imported cash. So they were all consigned to pigeon,
25:40which he made. Do you understand? Even textiles. They stopped importation of textile materials.
25:45That's why we have enough textile factories in the country. So before he came in,
25:52even if we are caught with dollars, we are scared. Where do you get it? But when he came,
25:58I think they liberalized all this. But he did that to open up the economy.
26:05I'm saying this, different statistics works in this legal state.
26:11Bamsa tried their best.
26:21That was the beginning of, let's say, official recognition of women's rights.
26:31We had some women like Reiko, Fulayo, that fought for women. But when you see government now say,
26:38no, women must come up. That was the first time we had in Nigeria. So he had some beautiful things
26:43he did. But you know what? At the end of the day, I think for what will have put him on the right
26:51side of history, that later became a sabbatros by annulling June 12th election. And for no
26:58justifiable reason. And which he has not even at least told Nigerians, I think, why he did it.
27:05Yes, because he definitely has access to more information. Yes, if I were to say any
27:10more significant thing that people remember, students of history remember during this period,
27:15is also the suppression of the press. You know, they would say any of his political opponents
27:19were either jailed, sent into exile, or just, you know. Do you think he addressed this at all, Mr.
27:27Tokwe? Not really, but I didn't expect much. Because you need to understand, he made
27:38reference to the fact that you have tasted two worlds. At the time, you already know what was
27:44expected from a military government. So you either cross the line and go in for it, or you stay in
27:53line. So the Nusupers at the time, they knew what they were doing and it was more of
28:01guerrilla journalism. In fact, they didn't, the press didn't go much into guerrilla journalism
28:08until the time General Sonabacha came after him and now heightened the suppression of the press.
28:19But it was because he opened up the economy and brought in experts. It was the first time you
28:26had a military government that had civilians, you know. So there was free flow. So maybe
28:33at intervals when you had maybe some bad press, but there was nothing of the kind. Even after
28:38Dedegiwa and the incident, it was like he recognized it as a soft point and stepped back.
28:54Like if you take the Guardian for instance, many of the incidents, the brush the organization had
29:01with the military were more under the regime of General Sonabacha. When the company was closed
29:08twice, when his elitists were picked up here, you know. So he presented himself as that liberal
29:17leader. So he wouldn't come after you. That's why he referred to him more as Maradona. He would
29:24dribble you this way and dribble you this way. So he wasn't upfront against Sonabacha.
29:30Babangida has expressed...
29:32You know, sorry, while I'm talking about this suppression of the media, you know, Babangida,
29:38sorry, I am, Buhari started it. The propagation of Decree 4 in Kifoye. Do you understand? So
29:45that Decree 4, I think it can close down any media organization without court order or
29:53pick any journalist. I think there were some of our senior colleagues in the Guardian that
29:59were picked up at that time.
30:02Tune Thompson.
30:03Yeah, Tune Thompson and co. But when he came, right, I think his own, if he didn't close down
30:10newspapers, but when you see some journalist just disappeared, do you understand? And the
30:15height of fear to receive a letter bomb, do you understand? And when, I think it was on record,
30:20when Dene Giwa got that parcel, he said it, Kai Doshi Nka was there, some people were with him.
30:28They said, this must be from the Mr. President. He said it, this must be from the Mr. President.
30:39So as I immediately tried to open it, I said, this story is all what we know. So I think he
30:45was not that nice or friendly to the media because in that book, he said, in the military
30:51psychology I set up, there are two kinds of people, not only one. Understand? Either you are
30:59a friend or you are an enemy. And once they see you as an enemy in military psychology, they have
31:07to crush you. So it's either you are friendly, you just fall within the line, as he said. But once
31:14you cross the line, I think you have been marked for elimination. So I think that's the guiding
31:22principle and philosophy he operated. And it was not apologetic for being a military man.
31:28And so that's why when we see some young girls who are talking of crossing the borderline,
31:35of saying because maybe there were some challenges, they are not invited to the military.
31:41So we didn't know what they were talking about.
31:43Yes, Mr. Templer, Babakida has expressed regret in past interviews that we've seen over the years.
31:50But do you think this book reflects that? Or is this a carefully crafted book to take
31:56account of, to take, to rebrand his legacy without taking full accountability?
32:03Like you rightly pointed out, in snippets of past encounters with the media,
32:11he had not addressed June 12th frontally, where he had always danced around the subject of
32:16war upon on June 12th. And I think he, taking a back, a bed's view high of
32:25all the events that occurred and as a stage of his life, he's closer to the departure long than
32:33he was the main actor in 1993. So I feel he wants to leave that as, he wants to leave the book
32:48as his legacy for posterity. Because like I said earlier, the fact that June 12th
32:58is something that will not be erased from Nigeria's history,
33:01just like October 1. And it was not accentuated by the last president,
33:06President Muhammadu Buhari, who has now made the nation's democracy day to be June 12th.
33:12So he carries that burden to his grave. So whether the answers he gave in the book
33:20tells the story as it is, or whether, but it serves as, for future generations, as
33:28as his own testimony. Now in, on the scope of it,
33:37because of the effect of June 12th, you know, even at the time when the incident happened,
33:44I think the phrase he used was, I'm stepping aside. So he never knew he will be stepping out
33:52of the corridors of power till death. Because he had always seen himself as, we had, of course,
33:59he had the Oba Sejo who returned as civilian president. We had Muhammadu Buhari who returned
34:04as civilian president. We had Abacha who wanted to transmit himself into a civilian president,
34:09but failed. He would never have imagined that of all he did, of all he did, he would be so
34:17reclusive to a state where he wouldn't be able to come to the public forum. And also that stigma
34:23of that annulment, no volumes of book can whitewash what was done. So he can write volume two,
34:33write volume three, he will go to his grave with that. Yeah, exactly.
34:39I doubt there's any political leader that has not been alleged to have taken funds from Nigeria.
34:47But under Babadrigida's administration, Mr. Muyiwa, he allegedly lost billions of dollars,
34:53including the popular 12.4 billion oil windfall scandal. Do you think he spoke about this on
34:59his book or does he deflect or deny? No, I think he only explained the circumstances
35:07in his usual manner. Do you understand? In his usual manner of saying that,
35:13that money was not lost. Do you understand? And explained, I think, even the process,
35:19even people can have access to money and what they are using the money for. Even that,
35:23even the assembly member never declared such money missing, but it was made there. Do you
35:28understand? He was talking about that it's very transparent. But unfortunately, then,
35:34you don't have a national assembly there, there's no committee, even there's no institution of
35:41government. Do you understand? Like an audit account of a military government. So that's one
35:46of those things we were saying that we don't talk of military government, we are talking of
35:49re-governance of mandates. Because there's no, you can't query them, you can't ask questions.
35:55That why did you say do this? Why did you spend this money? Why did you give this contract out?
36:02You can't ask questions. Because once you ask, I think in the military command structure or whatever,
36:09once the boss speak now, once he speaks, I think all of us must take, you know,
36:15when we're young, we say obey before complain. Complain, we have to obey first. Even if you
36:21complain, I don't risk it. I know the implication of complaining. Do you understand? So nobody can
36:29ask him how, why. I remember that the national assembly at that time were giving specific
36:38and limited areas of oppression, culture, traditions. That was the senate of the total
36:46republic. So when you see some senators of the total republic now, yes, giving the impression
36:52that they were real senators, you just, you know, we laugh. Because you can't talk of culture,
36:58tradition. You can't talk of governance. You understand? You can't talk of the nitty-gritty
37:03of what's going on in the country. But they were just there to display their identity.
37:08And that was what they fight. Go and see. Do you understand? How it happened. So perhaps he did not
37:15give sufficient reason to convince anybody. Do you understand? You know, he came up, I think he
37:20had his ears on the ground. You know, the man is a booker. He reads, right? So he came out to say
37:28these were negation. Do you understand? And he provide those answers. But as he said, I think
37:35if you ask him to write a book about himself, will he indict himself? He will not indict himself.
37:41So will he come, I think, to whitewash? I think those bad scenarios and incidents,
37:50I think that define his administration. And that's the essence of the book.
37:53Wow. He spoke about a lot of things, including his wife and his loss of his wife.
37:59And the wife, I think the wife was a very good lady. May her soul rest in peace. I think because
38:08we never, I think it's the first time to be daring. Maybe, you know, she's not,
38:15she's from Delta State, right? Yes, from Delta State now. And then, maybe because of that
38:21psychology and that background, for a lady always dressing very simple, do you understand?
38:28Unlike those who sat before him. And for her to talk and make, at least for women.
38:39There was a better life for a woman. She was the first one running around to women,
38:47encouraging them to speak up. Even before the Beijing conference that maybe made it international.
38:54So for her to be running around women, speaking to them, letting them to understand their powers.
39:03Do you understand? And what is good for their health? Something was telling them that the best
39:08you can have as a woman is for children. Do you understand? She was in that campaign.
39:13There was every man into it, not that, not that, where they don't want to hear about family planning.
39:21But so, she was campaigning that the best for any woman is for children. Even for a man as well.
39:28She was campaigning it. That as the best a family, no matter for, you know, Nigeria cannot make it
39:34in all. But their awareness, she made their awareness to the nooks and crannies of the country
39:40that the best for a woman is to have for children, not more than for children. So I think when we
39:48heard about, and she ran away from controversy throughout her period. So when we heard about
39:54her death, sickness or before she died, I think it was a real loss for the country and for everybody.
40:02So there are so many recipes. Yes. That's Miriam Babangirana. Yes, in Jedi 20, level 19.
40:09Babangirana presents himself as a nationalist, a pragmatist, but yet his tenor was always
40:19allegedly fooled by personal motivation. In his book, do you think he separated
40:25some of his personal motivations from what was needed for national unity?
40:33If we have to go by what he actually wrote in the book, you have to give him the allowance that
40:45as the writer of the book, telling his own story, he will always glorify himself. But when we look
40:51at the antecedents and what was left behind, I would say to an extent he displayed
41:00that pan-Nigerianness. And it's just one. My brother will maybe elucidate on more.
41:14Just the movement of creating a new federal capital out of nothing,
41:21from moving the federal capital from Lagos to Abuja. After Okapu.
41:27Yes. But you give it to him because... No, they have been building.
41:39General Mutala signed the propagation. But they started building. But it's a different thing when
41:46you are building a federal secretariat and you are building a city. Yes. No, no. Let me put it
41:52straight here. Agude Anko, you understand, the people that worked on this matter, that was a
41:59master plan. Yes. And they were already building the secretariat's government house everywhere.
42:07Yes. Right? But when the way it was almost, it wasn't going to him, Adudan Brax here,
42:17by the Gideon Okapu, you understand, where Ogboru Anko was allegedly involved,
42:26you understand, he saw the Brax not safe again because they almost got to where he was sleeping.
42:36So he saw it not. That's why he already completed some projects, you understand,
42:43without completing some. It's for his safety.
42:56You may say because of fear of coup, but in that way to build a palace in the rock.
43:02No, no, no, no. He completed some projects at least for him to leave. Because several
43:15years after he left, the federal secretariat is still in Lagos. I think almost all the government
43:23offices, I think were still in Lagos. Yeah. But you know, it didn't go, it didn't go
43:30when he thought it would go, but just for safety. You know, because anybody can just pull the
43:37trigger and they go, and then you are gone. So that's, you don't need an election though,
43:41and you don't need a cabinet, you don't need a president there. You just have to be daring.
43:51Yes, Mr. Monyowa, IVB has written a tell-all. How do you think his legacy stands today?
44:00You know, to be realistic with you, some people that benefited from IVB
44:09will continue to see him as a messiah that God sent to Nigeria to liberate Nigerians,
44:17not their family. Of course, their family and their interests.
44:20Because I wanted to say messiahs are not referred to as evil geniuses.
44:24Yes, but it's a larger population that felt the brunt of his actions and inactions,
44:32of his maladonic nature, you understand. So that will continue to see him as an evil genius
44:40one. And again, that will begin to see him as a man that came, deceived Nigerians for 80 years,
44:50you understand, and left Nigeria worse than he met it, you understand. And there's a certain
44:58blood that's crying for justice, you understand. I'm talking of blood of human beings, not
45:05blood of cow, right, that's demanding justice. As journalists, when I and my colleague
45:15went to Uwaya during that crisis, we wept, you understand, when we saw dead bodies of pregnant
45:25women. You know, journalists, we walk around there, and at that time, you walk around corpses,
45:33and you're not, because you are seen, you are only reporting your, after all, they are not
45:38your members of family. But on this matter, I think we journalists, we betray the emotions.
45:44Do you understand? So what happened to those families? Do you get my point? What do you expect
45:52them to say? How they lost their breadwinners, how they lost their children, how they lost their
45:56people? So, and if that's an action, or inaction of one man, you understand. So I think it was,
46:05you know, it's quite unfortunate, maybe as Africans. Some people will come with kind of
46:10testimony, and we will erupt it. Do you understand? There should be a way of making him,
46:20do you understand, at least say to face the consequence of his action, at least as a deterrent
46:28for those who are there in government now. But if with the revelation, do you understand, so you
46:35had the record at your disposal, and you kept quiet. I will say that he may not have won,
46:43but now say after 32 years. So you know the truth, and you refuse to divulge that truth
46:50for 32 years. So the best you can get now is that we're able to just look in, do you understand,
46:55and we're not saying, thank you for admitting that Abiyelola won the election. Thank you for what?
47:01Because that's how the president said it, right? Because such actions are supposed to carry
47:07consequences. So people now leading will now know that you can't continue to talk with lives.
47:15We have a question of power today, and power transcends. So whatever you do today,
47:20if 100 years you account for it. And there's some people that played some roles in genocide,
47:25during Nazi something. We knew how they were treated before that. So those that played roles
47:29during serious apartheid, you saw some accounting for the actions, right? But we now say
47:38that somebody that is actually in action led to death of thousands of Nigerians.
47:45Billions of Nigerians, you can call it trillions, went down the drain. Economy went back 50 years.
47:53Social life went back 50 years. Do you understand? And unleashed Abasha on the country.
47:59And if someone doesn't say, well, I was naive, or the benefit of hindsight, I would have done
48:04differently. Do you understand? No, no. I think that in this lifetime, I think there should be
48:09consequences. Maybe, maybe. I mean, it's still alive. Where there's life, there's hope, they say.
48:14So let's hope if you take some accountability in the future. But Mr. Tope, would you say this
48:21book can be seen as a long-awaited confession? Or is this a carefully crafted defense?
48:29It is.
48:35For within 32 years, and spawning all avenues and opportunities to speak the truth,
48:46what that book served was like, it was there was nothing we didn't know that is coming out 32 years
48:55after. So in that regard, it was like, why take that long to say what you should have said,
49:03whether at the deputy panel, whether even before then, or at all. There was in, I think two years
49:12ago, at the time when, no, before the former president announced June 12 as a Democracy Day,
49:20I think the year before, he recognized MQ Abiola as the winner of June 12, and gave him what was
49:28due to him as a former president, which was the GCFR. And also the running mate then,
49:36Kigibi, GCY, you know, the National Honor and everything, and said all entitlement of a former
49:46president for life, he gave it to the Abiola family. That was when he could have spoken the truth.
49:52It was even, if he took a former president, Mahmoud Buhari, who was not a principal actor,
49:59he was also chased out of government by this same IBB, and jailed for three and a half years.
50:06So if you took someone like that to look back and say, no, no, we need to correct this error.
50:12No, he did that, although people said, okay, we need to correct the South Wales because of 2019
50:18elections. It came after that election to now say, going forward, Nigeria's Democracy Day will be
50:24June 12. So there was nothing else we expected than being sincere in whatever you're going to
50:32say about June 12 that we already didn't know. So what was all contained in the book were those
50:38cocktails of, yeah, and we now see many of those who are still alive, not coming out
50:49to puncture all the stories there. And for me, a true biography won't answer all the questions,
51:00but when the book leaves more questions and answers, then it should have. Even the same
51:06former president, Mahmoud Buhari, is quoted to have said that he would not write a book,
51:11and he gave his reasons, because he said so many people offended him in his lifetime,
51:16and he wouldn't want to desecrate the image of those who have maybe gone or disturbed the
51:22children and grandchildren of those who offended him, so he's not going to do a tell-all.
51:27No, he could have just left history at that, where we won't have to be questioning every line,
51:33every chapter, every page. So it's an addition to history, the book is an addition to history,
51:40but it's a distorted account of history.
51:44Wow, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Mwenyuwa, for gracing our seats yet again.
51:48Thank you, Mr. Tokwe Templar, for short.
51:54Thank you very much. Like I said earlier, it is not just about what happened, it is how it is
52:00remembered. And historians would say history is sometimes written by victors, but here in Nigeria,
52:07history is sometimes contested, defended, or sometimes denied. So tell us in the comment
52:14section, what do you think about I.B.B.'s book? Stay tuned with us for more insightful coverages.
52:19I am Royce Okunyiyi. Bye for now.