Dale hears from Heritage Correspondent Alison Campsie on the case for reintroducing Lynx to the Scottish countryside
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AnimalsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to the Scotsman's Daily Video Bulletin for this Wednesday.
00:04My name's Dale Miller.
00:05I'm Deputy Editor of the Scotsman and I'm joined by our Heritage Correspondent, Alison
00:11Campsey.
00:12Alison, we'll get to having a chat about something just slightly off-brief for you,
00:18although it's got an historic element as well to it, but firstly the front page of
00:23today's Scotsman.
00:25And we led on public services crumbling.
00:27This was an interview that our political editor, Alistair Grant, has done with the
00:32head of Unison and they are saying effectively, basically flagging that the existing council
00:40tax system is, quote, stupid and there's major problems about the crumbling sector
00:46and the inability to deliver the public services that, I guess, people and ratepayers and taxpayers
00:53have come to expect.
00:55This comes as the first council tax hike was agreed at 10% and this is for East Lothian
01:02residents.
01:03Now, there are proposals for a variety of increases across the country.
01:09John Swinney has said he doesn't think 10% increases are warranted and that they would
01:14be too high, but East Lothian has set theirs at 10% and there are a host of other councils
01:20that are looking and have even recommended at close to 10%.
01:24Edinburgh is 8% as an example.
01:27Glasgow, I think, is currently hovering around at 7% in terms of recommendations.
01:31Other councils like Fife meet on Thursday to decide their budgets.
01:36It's a big week and it's not good news if you're thinking about how much you're going
01:40to pay out for basic services throughout this year.
01:45Ellison, slightly less doom and gloom, I guess, to talk about.
01:50Something that John Swinney said, I think it was a week or two ago, under our government
01:55or under his government, they will not be considering the introduction of lynxes or
02:00any other carnivores, but the public have had a bit of a say around this and there's
02:05a slightly alternative view out there.
02:06Yeah, absolutely.
02:07It's become a really sort of interesting debate that should be kind of ramped up and this
02:13is about the reintroduction of lynx, particularly, and other predators in Scotland.
02:18So, John Swinney said that NFU Scotland had a room full of farmers in early February that
02:25he was not, he had no intention of reintroducing lynx to Scotland, but a poll has come out
02:33yesterday and it suggests that public support for the release of lynx, legal release of
02:41lynx into the Scottish countryside has grown.
02:44Sixty one percent, apparently, of the Scottish public would support the reintroduction of
02:48lynx. Now, so you're seeing another interesting fault line building up here.
02:54Farmers are wholly opposed to the reintroduction of lynx and other predators because they
03:00fear that they will attack livestock and undermine traditional land management
03:05practices. But the people who did this poll, which is a group called Lynx to Scotland,
03:11which is funded by a number of rewilding organisations, they say the time has come to bring
03:18lynx back in and into the Scottish countryside and basically rebalance the ecology.
03:24We know that the Highlands, you know, in many parts are kind of an ecological desert, and
03:28this is largely driven by huge numbers of deer, which have kind of over the years
03:34exploded over these highland estates in numbers, given the kind of prevalence of hunting
03:40and shooting. But deers are also very damaging to the countryside as well.
03:45They're seen to destroy trees.
03:47And although much work has gone on to try and control the impact of deer, rewilders are
03:52saying we need predators for deer to naturally keep down the numbers and naturally kind of
03:58restore the balance in the countryside.
04:01So it's a really interesting argument.
04:04John Swinney has been told to kind of, you know, have a rethink on this because the
04:09Scottish government has long told us that they are, they support moves, great moves to
04:16tackle climate change.
04:18They've kind of, they had these very ambitious targets to get to net zero.
04:24And, you know, I think Lynx to Scotland are saying you're missing a trick here.
04:28If we can actually bring this balance back in to the Scottish countryside in its ecology,
04:34we have more trees, we have more habitats, we have more biodiversity.
04:38These are key things which help on that road to net zero.
04:43And also Lynx were in the Scottish countryside for hundreds of years, but throughout
04:49hunting, through hunting and so forth, they became extinct, I think it was about 500 years
04:53ago. So they do have a place in Scotland.
04:56Historically, there's been a lot of attempts in Europe as well to bring back the Lynx.
05:01Now, I haven't checked out in detail the success of these schemes, but it's certainly
05:07suggested that in some places it is working.
05:11And I think Lynx to Scotland, by their nature, are getting very frustrated with this
05:17blanket no put down on their proposals, which I have to say are incredibly well thought
05:23out and detailed.
05:25And they've been doing a lot of work in the background, speaking to stakeholders,
05:29particularly up around the Cairngorms area, where it's kind of been long thought that if
05:33Lynx was to come back, this is the kind of area that it would go to.
05:38They've done a lot of work with stakeholders, really detailed work on the ground, trying
05:41to formulate a proper discussion.
05:44So the fact that John Swinney is standing up in front of farmers and saying, no, we're
05:49not going to do this, presumably to keep the farming community, a very important part of
05:56the Scottish economy on board.
05:58But there's a frustration, I think, of the lack of dialogue, the lack of discussion, the
06:03lack of kind of collaboration and thinking and lack of will really to get people around
06:08the table and say, could we do this?
06:10I mean, there's the argument that if you bring Lynx back to Scotland, suddenly you've got
06:15this amazing new sort of draw to bring people into the country for tourism, ecotourism,
06:23rewilding tourism, which we know has become a big thing.
06:26So I think the poll shows that public support is up.
06:30John Swinney is saying no way, Lynx to Scotland are saying, let's just have a proper chat
06:35about this. Now, interestingly, the 61 percent figure of public support, that's gone up nine
06:43points since 2020.
06:47And the most recent poll was done following the illegal release of four Lynx into the
06:53Cairngorms in January.
06:55So that was a huge story and probably had the ability to focus people's mind on the issue
07:00on a very broad scale.
07:02So it's interesting that they're seeing a rise in support following this big news story
07:06about the Lynx, which really got people chatting about the issues and the broader impact
07:11that reintroducing Lynx into Scotland would have.
07:15Now, John Swinney said that a legal release was reckless.
07:19Lynx for Scotland agree that it shouldn't have been done that way.
07:23But they're saying there's a lot of capacity here to do this and to do it right and to
07:28do it to the benefit of the Scottish countryside.
07:30So a really interesting debate.
07:33Another one that kind of tilts the wishes of rewilders against the traditional stalwarts
07:38of the land, i.e. the farming and crofting community.
07:41But one, an issue, I think, which surely warrants some serious discussion if we are to
07:47improve the ecology of the Scottish countryside.
07:50Now, listen, we know that those four Lynx were domesticated in nature, so perhaps weren't
07:56a great example about how any planned release of Lynx into the wild would be managed if
08:03it was ever supported. I mean, I'm fascinated by the topic.
08:06My native Australia reintroduction of species has had some disastrous effects.
08:12But as you say, this was an animal that was present here 200 years ago in decent
08:19numbers. Yeah, absolutely.
08:21And, you know, there's an argument that historically the owners of the Scottish
08:24countryside, you have these massive estates in the highland back to back, massive tracts
08:28of land, which are very, you know, they're ecologically damaged due to generations of
08:37deer hunting. And, you know, it's like, well, is it not time to actually think again
08:43about restoring some of this countryside if we're serious about moving to a more
08:51ecologically rich landscape, one which could benefit a transition to net zero?
08:58So it really is such an interesting topic and it touches on such a lot of current
09:03themes. But there seems to be a real, I don't know, a sticking point over it.
09:11And again, it's you're seeing once more the rewilding agenda, those who are in favour
09:19of nature restoration, which has really got a lot of momentum in Scotland and kind of
09:23does a lot of work under the radar.
09:26Their aims, wishes, ambitions and hopes are constantly coming up against these arguments
09:32that things should really kind of stay the same.
09:35At least, surely, the Scottish public deserves to hear a proper discussion about this.
09:43And coincidentally, Alison, there was a new study released in the articles up on the
09:49Scotsman's website.
09:50You can find it under the Environment tab earlier this week about the reintroduction of
09:54wolves into the highlands, suggesting as few as 167 of the animals would be enough to
10:01introduce back into the environment and control.
10:04I think the number for links is that they reckon that the highlands could support 250
10:10links from memory.
10:11I think that's right. But I think what's really useful to understand is just the amount
10:18of detailed work that has gone into these studies and kind of proposals for the
10:27reintroduction of predators.
10:29They're not just being done on a whim.
10:31There's a lot of evidence base there as well.
10:33Now, Links for Scotland do completely appreciate the arguments that livestock could be at
10:42risk. And they're not denying that livestock could be at risk, but they're like, well, is
10:48there a way that we can have both?
10:51Is there a sort of a model we can bring in where livestock is protected the best it can
10:56be, but we can have predators too?
10:58And I think the quote from Links for Scotland, I'm not sure if it actually remained in the
11:05story, but they were saying that other, oh yeah, here it is, I thought it was quite a good
11:10quote. Other countries, often with more people and fewer resources than our own, manage to
11:14coexist with elephants, lions and tigers.
11:17Are we so exceptional in Scotland that we cannot manage to live with a medium-sized cat?
11:22Which I thought was a really good point.
11:25And the links apparently pose no threat to humans, they're very elusive.
11:32You know, they just want to go and hunt something to eat.
11:34They're not going to bother humans, as Links for Scotland would say.
11:38So, yeah, a really interesting topic.
11:40And hopefully, one, I would like to see this debate continue in a serious sense.
11:46I don't think it's just enough to say, no, we can't do this.
11:49Well, if we can't, why not?
11:50You know, who gets the upper hand here in the argument?
11:53Should it not be about a kind of collaboration and a sense of exchange in the discussion
12:00and the debate, rather than just saying no?
12:02You can read stories about everything that we've discussed, including our past coverage
12:07about the Links release and what happened in that case.
12:12A number of articles written by Elson's colleague Catherine Hay as well at Scotsman.com
12:17under the Environment or the Hay's Way tabs, you'll find plenty of these stories.
12:22Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and go out and pick up a copy of the paper tomorrow.
12:27We'll have our latest in our Justice Denied week-long series on the pressures on the criminal justice system.
12:34And we will be focusing on the victims in our coverage tomorrow.
12:38Alison, thanks to you and thanks to everyone else for joining us.
12:41Thanks very much.