The big talking point of this episode of News Today is the Rahul Gandhi versus Modi-Shah over the appointment of the chief election commissioner.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome, you're with the news today, your prime time destination,
00:05news, news makers, talking points tonight, the election commission caught in a political
00:10tangle, it's Rahul Gandhi versus Modi Shah once again over the choice of the election
00:15commissioner.
00:16We'll have more on that.
00:18Also the other big story, should there be regulation of digital content?
00:22The Supreme Court seems to want it, but will it be feasible?
00:27We've got plenty to talk about on the news today, but as always, we will bring you news
00:31from across the country.
00:33Our aim is clear.
00:34We want to bring news back on prime time.
00:38First, the nine headlines.
00:42A day after Gyanesh Kumar is appointed the new chief election commissioner, Congress
00:46leader Rahul Gandhi questions the selection panel, says it violates the Supreme Court
00:50order.
00:51The Supreme Court will hear the plea against the appointment tomorrow.
00:57Supreme Court orders Ranbir Allahbadia, beer biceps and his associates to stop airing all
01:03their shows on YouTube, calls it disgusting and an insult to parents, but gives relief
01:09from arrest.
01:10Supreme Court wants a law to regulate obscene content online.
01:18Once over the Mahakum escalates once again, Mamata Banerjee calls it Mritukum or a congregation
01:24of death.
01:25Bengal BJP leaders protest against Mamata's comments.
01:32More revelations in the Delhi station stampede case report reveals there was a 40 minute
01:37delay in the distress call to the fire department.
01:41Just one of the many lapses being uncovered.
01:46An unrest in Kalinga University in Bhubaneswar peaks over Nepal students' suicide, ex-boyfriend
01:53and five college officials arrested.
01:55College apologizes for harassing Nepali students who protested against the death.
02:03Telangana allows government servants observing Ramzan to leave an hour early.
02:08BJP hits out, accuses Revant Reddy of appeasement politics.
02:14United States and Russia appoint teams to work on ending the Ukraine war.
02:19Kremlin says Putin ready to hold talks with Zelensky if necessary.
02:26Days after Prime Minister Modi's meet with Elon Musk, Tesla post job openings in India.
02:32Will Tesla now be driving into India soon?
02:37And a new video of the Toronto plane crash shows moment when the aircraft turned turtle
02:42in a miracle.
02:43No casualties reported but 18 people injured, two of them seriously.
02:59But a story that could have huge global ramifications is our top story at the moment.
03:04The United States and Russia have held talks on the Ukraine war.
03:09The United States Secretary of State Marco Rubio and the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei
03:14Lavrov have met in Saudi Arabia.
03:17The Putin-Trump summit is now unlikely next week but this meeting throws hope that maybe
03:24the war in Ukraine can end.
03:26The Ukrainian President Zelensky has met the Turkish President Erdogan meanwhile in Ankara.
03:31Zelensky has made it clear he is not prepared to give up territory to Russia.
03:36What lies ahead?
03:37Either way, this could become a big story building up globally at the moment.
03:43Let's listen in first to what was said out of the meeting by Marco Rubio, the U.S. Secretary
03:49of State.
03:50Well, I would start by saying we've agreed on four principles that I think are important.
03:54The first is that we are going to work, we're going to appoint our teams respectively that
03:58have worked very quickly to reestablish the functionality of our respective missions in
04:03Washington and in Moscow.
04:05For us to be able to continue to move down this road, we need to have diplomatic facilities
04:09that are operating and functioning normally.
04:12The second point is that we're going to appoint a high-level team from our end to help negotiate
04:16and work through the end of the conflict in Ukraine in a way that's enduring and acceptable
04:21to all the parties engaged.
04:26The conversation was, I think, very useful.
04:29We did not just listen but heard each other.
04:33And I have reason to believe that American side has become more understanding of our
04:37position, which we have once again presented in detail and with specific examples on the
04:42basis of President Putin's multiple statements.
04:49All of us Ukrainians want the war to end, but of course, based on certain security guarantees.
04:55We want these security guarantees to be given by the whole of Europe, including Turkey,
05:01the U.S. and the European Union.
05:32Well, Rajdeep, it's very, very clear coming out of this meeting that America and Russia
05:36are convinced that both sides are looking for an end to the conflict.
05:40That's what Secretary of State Rubio said, that he's convinced that Russia wants an end
05:44to the conflict, which is an important statement.
05:46But he did say this is the first in a set of very, very long and difficult steps to
05:50end the conflict.
05:51What's going to happen now is a set of three processes.
05:54First, the embassies of Russia and America are going to start dealing with each other
05:58more normally.
06:00over the last 10 years.
06:01They're going to start dealing much more normally with each other so that there can be a proper
06:04diplomatic dialogue.
06:05Secondly, high level teams are going to start meeting in the coming weeks.
06:09These teams are going to discuss some of the really key issues in the Ukraine conflict.
06:12Who controls Ukrainian territory after the conflict ends?
06:14What kind of security guarantees does Russia have to give to show that they will not invade
06:18Ukraine again, as they did in the past?
06:20That is going to be absolutely key and those technical issues are going to have to be discussed
06:23by the teams.
06:24Also, a broader normalization of efforts between Russia and America, which could include
06:29the removal of sanctions on Russia's economy.
06:32And finally, of course, this will probably lead to a much anticipated summit meeting
06:36between President Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.
06:38Both sides have indicated that they are very, very keen to have that deal happen and have
06:42that move extremely quickly.
06:44So that's what we're going to see in the next coming weeks and months.
06:47Very quickly, where does this leave Ukraine?
06:49Because President Zelensky has made it clear he's not going to cede any Ukrainian territory.
06:54Will there eventually, is the possibility there with the likes of the Turkish president
06:59intervening that you could have possibly a Zelensky meeting as well with the other side?
07:08Well, you know, Zelensky is in a very unenviable position at this point in time.
07:12We've just had news that he was supposed to go into Saudi Arabia, where the talks between
07:16the United States and Russia have been happening right now.
07:19Unfortunately, he seems to have just now cancelled his visit or postponed it, which puts him
07:23in an unenviable position because he's essentially been pushed out of the negotiating process.
07:27This is really America and Russia, the big boys at the table discussing this.
07:30In fact, European nations are also not at the table.
07:33So it's an unenviable position, not a lot of clarity for Ukraine.
07:37If you're President Zelensky, you don't know how America is thinking about your role in
07:40negotiating the conflict.
07:41He is, of course, trying to talk to players like Turkey, but the fact that he's not going
07:45to Saudi Arabia shows that, in fact, at this point in time, he is not an absolutely critical
07:49player.
07:50America has made clear that in the coming weeks, as high-level teams meet, they will
07:53absolutely be in touch with President Zelensky.
07:55They will talk to the Ukrainian team, they will talk to the Europeans, they won't sideline
07:58them.
07:59But this initial, if you're Zelensky, this initial meeting shows some very troubling
08:02signs for you, that you're not necessarily on the table for America and Russia.
08:06And it also perhaps puts the Europeans on the back foot.
08:09They're already struggling to deal with the world under Donald Trump.
08:13So the Europeans are almost being pushed to the corner, with Trump directly now dealing
08:19with the Russians.
08:21And we'll have to wait and see how Europe looks at this latest move by Donald Trump.
08:26Clearly, he is a president in a hurry.
08:29Now, can he resolve the Ukraine war issue?
08:32Could well become a major challenge for him as he sort of showcases Trump 2.0.
08:39Shashank Mattu joining us with the details from our international team.
08:44OK, let's turn to the other big story and let's turn back home, because the big story
08:48coming in is from the national capital at the moment, where the BJP will finally pick
08:53a Delhi chief minister tomorrow, 10 days after winning Delhi after 26 long years.
09:01Sources telling India Today that the BJP legislature party meeting will take place at 7 p.m. tomorrow
09:06and the swearing in will take place on Thursday.
09:09Three names being mentioned as frontrunners, Parvesh Varma, the giant killer Lok Sabha
09:14MP who defeated, former Lok Sabha MP defeated Arvind Kejriwal there.
09:19Rekha Gupta is a possible contender if she, if the BJP decides to have a woman candidate.
09:28And Ashish Sood is a longstanding BJP leader from Delhi.
09:33If the BJP decides to give experience, weight above all else.
09:37The oath ceremony at 11 a.m. on February 20th and preparations already on at Ram Leela.
09:43Once again, the BJP wants to make it a big affair.
09:46Industrialist celebrities likely to be invited to the oath taking ceremony.
09:51Let's go straight across to Piyush Mishra, who joins us at the moment.
09:55Piyush, there will be the swearing in at 11 a.m. on Thursday, which means tomorrow is
10:01the day the BJP decides.
10:03Is it now about caste combination, gender?
10:06When the BJP decides who will be its next chief minister, could we have another surprise
10:11as has been the case in the past in the Modi regime?
10:18Well, Rajdeep, BJP is known to throw surprises.
10:21And as far as the caste combination is concerned, certainly sources have told us that almost
10:27every caste live in Delhi have voted for BJP and the caste combination will certainly be
10:32kept in mind.
10:33Tomorrow, by this time, we will be able to know the next Delhi chief minister, because
10:37tomorrow at 7 a.m., 7 p.m., BJP has called for the meeting of its legislature party.
10:43And in that, the name will be decided and also the name will be announced.
10:47Multiple contenders are in fray, which includes Parvesh Verma, Shikha Rai, Rekha Gupta, Vijendra
10:53Gupta, Mohan Singh Bishti.
10:54There are multiple names of those have, you know, those are in that particular list and
10:59a discussion on discussions on them are underway.
11:02Right now, I'm present at Ram Leela Maidan.
11:04And let me try to show you the pictures from right behind my place.
11:08That's the spot which is right now on our television screen.
11:11That's the very place where a Delhi chief minister, after climbing 25 states, will reach
11:17top that particular place and then take oath.
11:20Beyond that, if I would ask my video journalist Kunju Bihari to zoom in, you can see how the
11:24preparations are underway.
11:26There are multiple tents, those have already been erected.
11:29Security personnel are inside.
11:30This entire area is now being taken over by SPG.
11:35So it is now a totally protected area.
11:39Everybody who is entering has valid pass.
11:41So preparations are underway.
11:43And by this time tomorrow, Rajdeep, we will be able to know who will be the next chief
11:47minister.
11:48But what is more important to highlight is that around 10 days have gone and still Delhi
11:53has does not have its chief minister.
11:55There are multiple promises, tall promises.
11:58Those are made by BJP.
11:59And now it's time to fulfill them.
12:01And for that, you should have a government in hand and work should begin.
12:06OK, we'll wait and see who it is.
12:08Remember, the BJP's previous chief ministers of Delhi, as Piyush leaves us, Madanlal Khurana,
12:16he represented the old Punjabi guard of the BJP when the BJP was rising in Delhi.
12:22And this was in 1993.
12:24Eventually, he was replaced by Sahib Singh Verma, whose son, ironically, Parvesh Verma,
12:31could well be a chief ministerial choice.
12:33They represented the jaat, the rising power of jaats, especially in the outer Delhi area.
12:39And then there is the possibility that the BJP could well have a woman chief minister.
12:43Remember, at the moment in the country, there is only one woman chief minister, Mamata Banerjee.
12:48And increasingly, there's a belief that the women voters matter more than anyone else.
12:53So purely in symbolic terms, you could throw up a woman chief minister as well.
12:59We'll wait and see what are the criteria with Narendra Modi.
13:03Expect the unexpected.
13:05Usually the names that do the rounds never become chief minister.
13:10Remember the example of Madhya Pradesh and Mohan Yadav.
13:14OK, let's just turn now to the story that's become a political tangle.
13:19And I'm going to talk a little bit more about it because
13:21the chief election commissioner in a country, in a democracy, is a very important position.
13:27Last night or late last night, the new chief election commissioner was appointed.
13:31His appointment of Gyanesh Kumar was approved by Prime Minister Modi and Home Minister Amit Shah.
13:38But leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi went ahead and submitted a dissent note
13:44asking the process to be put on hold till the Supreme Court hears the plea
13:48against the manner in which election commissioners are being appointed under a new law.
13:54The court is taking up the petitions tomorrow, but the larger question is simply this.
14:00Are election commissioners simply now appointed
14:04by the center and the opposition has absolutely no role in it?
14:10And does that therefore compromise the independence of election commissioners?
14:16Take a look at our other top story.
14:21The new face of India's election commission.
14:24Gyanesh Kumar has been appointed as the chief election commissioner.
14:30This is the first appointment of a CEC under the new law for election commission members
14:35and his tenure will run till January 26, 2029.
14:40Under Gyanesh Kumar, the poll body will hold 20 assembly elections and conduct
14:44president vice president polls in 2027.
14:48His term ends just ahead of the 2029 Lok Sabha elections.
14:53Gyanesh Kumar was picked after a meeting of the selection panel, which included
15:00Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who chaired the meeting and approved the appointment,
15:04as well as Home Minister Amit Shah, who is his cabinet member of choice for the panel,
15:09while leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi opposed the decision.
15:14Calling the appointment a disrespectful and discourteous midnight call by the
15:19Prime Minister and Home Minister, Rahul Gandhi questioned why the CEC was chosen
15:25ahead of the Supreme Court hearing on petitions challenging the new law.
15:48The BJP claims the appointment was done following due process.
16:18The Supreme Court in a judgment in 2023 has ruled that the election commission appointment
16:24panel will have the Prime Minister, leader of opposition and the Chief Justice of India as its
16:29members. The court said the appointment process will continue till the government brings a new
16:34law. In a bill that was passed in Parliament soon after, the selection panel was rejigged,
16:40replacing the CGI with a cabinet minister nominated by Prime Minister.
16:45The Supreme Court will be hearing pleas against the changes in the EC selection
16:49panel's composition on February 19th. Bureau report India Today.
16:57So is the office of the election commission a vital office in a democracy now caught in an
17:04unfortunate political tangle? Is it time to simply review the manner in which election
17:09commissioners are appointed? Is the government's stamp on the election commission
17:13and the election commission's appointment now increasingly apparent? Is there a Modi
17:18Shah stamp as the opposition alleges? Joining me now is OP Rawat. He's former chief election
17:24commissioner and Jagdeep Chokhar is a founding member of the Association for Democratic Reforms
17:29that has been pushing for greater transparency, including in the appointment of election
17:35commissioners. Before I come to you, gentlemen, I just want to say what happens now
17:40also happened in the past when it comes to the election commissioners and the way they're
17:44appointed. There are, remember, various complaints and controversies that are haunting the election
17:53commission. At the moment from the Congress complaining about alleged discrepancies in
17:58the Maharashtra election. Why did why were more voters added? How did 40 lakh new voters get added
18:04are among the questions that have been raised. Voter deletion has been another issue.
18:09Aam Aadmi Party claims voter names were being deleted ahead of the polls here.
18:13Haryana EVM Rao, Congress complaining about how EVMs having 99 percent charge battery charge on
18:20counting day. We've also had in the Lok Sabha voter turnout. Congress citing a report by Vote
18:26for Democracy to question the turnout figures. I'll come to many of those controversies, but first
18:31I want to come to you, O.P. Rawat, as a former chief election commissioner. When on the very
18:38first day these kind of statements are made, does it compromise in a way the position of
18:46the chief election commissioner if the opposition says he's a rubber stamp of the government?
18:52Rajdeep, I don't think so, because the whole matter has been conducted in accordance with
19:04the laid down law. An honourable Supreme Court has had said that until the parliament enacts a law,
19:11only till then this panel suggested by Supreme Court will do the scrutiny and selection process.
19:20So whatever has been done, it has been done. But it's been challenged, sir. So the fact is,
19:26let's get the facts right. The Supreme Court had first said that the selection panel would include
19:33the prime minister, the leader of the opposition and the chief justice of India. Right. The
19:40government then decides we are bringing in a law, removes the chief justice of India,
19:44appoints a minister, in this case, Amit Shah. So it's two to one. Now that is being challenged
19:49in the Supreme Court, which is hearing it tomorrow. What does the Modi government do?
19:5348 hours before that, goes ahead and appoints the chief election commissioner.
19:57Where does that leave the Supreme Court challenge which comes up tomorrow, sir?
20:05That challenge will be heard by honourable Supreme Court and whatever
20:09judgment they deliver will be complied with. However, whatever has been done because the
20:15present CEC was the demitting office and the chief election commissioner's office cannot be headless
20:23for even a single moment. So you don't agree with Rahul Gandhi's claim that this is a
20:31midnight coup. You believe this has been done as per routine. Am I correct?
20:38As per the law, not routine, because routine was in fact much worse.
20:43The routine was that even LOP was not there in the selection panel.
20:47That's a very, you know, that's a point, Jagdeep Chokhar. I want to come to you and I want to
20:51bring just put on record how election commissioners used to be appointed. I remember from the days of
20:58TN session. Initially, the election commission was a single member body with one chief election
21:04commissioner. He used to be appointed by the union government. In those days, the Congress was in
21:08power and the Congress would, without consulting the opposition, appoint a chief election commissioner.
21:15The Narasimha Rao government in the mid-1990s appointed two election commissioners to clip
21:21the then chief election commissioner session's powers by making it based on a majority vote
21:28so that decisions were taken in the commission on a majority vote. In March, the Supreme Court
21:33decided we'll include the prime minister, leader of the opposition, CJI, make it a little bit more
21:38neutral, one from each side and then the chief justice. The government reversed that by bringing
21:43in a new law replacing the chief justice. But the point, Jagdeep Chokhar, is every government wants
21:49possibly, including Congress, election commissioners that suit them. So what's new about this?
21:54Oh, there is nothing new. And we have worked with the election commission for 25 years.
22:04And Mr. Rawat was also one of the chief election commissioners during that time.
22:08And we had a wonderful working relationship. And at that time, election commissioners and
22:14the chief election commissioner was appointed by the government of the day.
22:19And there had been all kinds of appointments, mostly good, but a few which left something to
22:25be desired. But over the last six, seven years, and we never filed a petition in all those 15 years.
22:34It was only in the last six, seven, eight years that we found that some of the actions of the
22:39election commission did not seem to meet the requirement of complete neutrality.
22:48Are you saying that's only happened in the last six, seven years, sir?
22:51Are you saying that's only happened in the last six, seven years? Give me an example.
22:55I am saying two things, if you let me say that. Even in the last 15 years,
23:00there were appointments which were indifferent, but they were not so intense that they affected
23:08the working of the election. When we felt that happening over a period of time, and there was a
23:13pattern, we filed a petition. All we said was that the constitution says there should be a law
23:21and parliament has not made a law. Please ask the parliament to make a law. That was our original
23:26petition. When we filed that petition in that judgment, which is over 300 or 300 pages long,
23:34the Supreme Court, a constitution bench has spent three-fourths of the judgment trying to explain
23:41the rationale of appointment, which is that the appointment should not be under the exclusive
23:46control of the government. The judgment also quotes Professor Simbal Lal Saxena from the
23:53Constituent Assembly. In the Constituent Assembly, there was a debate and disagreement on
24:00should there be a law made or should it be left to the parliament of the country?
24:05Sir, but the government of the day, I'm sorry, the government of the day has brought in a law.
24:09The government of the day has brought in a law as amended by the Supreme Court.
24:13Just a minute, let me repeat. The government of the day brought in a law which followed the letter
24:20of the law, but not the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law was an appointment body,
24:28which is not exclusively under the control of the executive. That basic issue has been violated in
24:37the law that has been brought in. And we challenged the law within a week of this being brought in.
24:44We are not interested in any particular individual or any particular party.
24:48Our petition for reviewing this law and judicial oversight is part of the constitution.
24:56Supreme Court.
24:57I take your point. You made an important point, sir, that the government, according to you,
25:01has followed the letter and not the spirit of the law, in your view, or the spirit of the
25:06Supreme Court judgment, which wanted election commissioners to not only be neutral, but be
25:11seen to be neutral. Take that OP Rawat, the point that Jagdeep Chowkar is making, when the Supreme
25:18Court intervened, appointed the Chief Justice of India on the panel, they obviously didn't want
25:22one side, the government, to have a majority on deciding the election commissioners of this
25:27country. That's where Rahul Gandhi is now raising a red flag, saying you have two people from the
25:32government, Mr. Modi and Shah, and he's there. So he says it's a rubber stamp.
25:40That issue is under the Supreme Court's consideration, and tomorrow they are going
25:44to hear. So I would refrain commenting on.
25:47Do you think the new law is against the spirit?
25:50Do you think the new law brought in by the Modi government is against the spirit
25:55of the Supreme Court in ensuring neutrality of election commissioners?
26:03I just would say that whatever is the laid down law, as per our constitution,
26:09the government followed that and appointed the new incumbents.
26:14Okay, you're being very safe and there, but Jagdeep Chowkar, let me give you a final word.
26:19You said your petitions are not about individuals, but think about someone like Gyanesh Kumar there,
26:24appointed Chief Election Commissioner. On day one, the opposition is gunning for him,
26:28saying he's Amit Shah's man. I mean, don't you think the opposition also should hold its fire
26:34till they see how Gyanesh Kumar performs? If there are decisions that he takes,
26:39which violate election guidelines or are seen to be non-transparent, isn't that the better way
26:45rather than start a character assassination from day one?
26:49This is not a question of individuals, whether it is Gyanesh Kumar or Rajiv Kumar
26:54or TN Seshan or OP Rawat. The system of appointment has to be seen to be neutral and fair.
27:04And it is not only the law made by the current parliament. There is a whole section of debates
27:09in the Constituent Assembly where Shibbalal Saxena actually said that the appointment should
27:16be done by two-thirds majority in the parliament. And I have written about this in the Hindu and in
27:22the Wire saying that the appointment actually, the Supreme Court also says that the CEC is in
27:29a unique position, which is not held by anybody else in the country. So their appointment process
27:36has to be very, very carefully designed that there is not an iota of doubt in anybody's mind
27:42about their neutrality. OK, I think you make a fair point there. At the end of the day,
27:47if you are the chief election commissioner of India and it's expected, therefore, to be the
27:52ultimate neutral umpire, the entire process by which you are made chief election commissioner
27:58should be as transparent as possible. And you must be not only neutral, but seen to be neutral.
28:04And that's where really the tangle has now once again reached the Supreme Court.
28:08Rahul Gandhi raising a red flag. We'll wait and see how the Supreme Court responds. O.P. Rawat,
28:13Jagdeep Chokhar, for joining me here tonight. Thanks very much for joining me on my top talking
28:18point. Then let's turn from that to the other talking point. And it's once again coming from
28:22the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court today wrapped YouTuber and podcaster Ranbir Alabadia. The top
28:29court pulled him up for using crass, obscene remarks on India's got latent show, a show that
28:37remember is where Ranbir Alabadia asked questions laden with sexual innuendos. The court said the
28:44language used by Alabadia shows that he's a perverted type mindset. His parents should be
28:50ashamed of him. The court, however, has given him relief from arrest in the case.
28:54Nalini Sharma with more details.
28:58Ranbir Alabadia for his controversial comments made on the YouTube show India's got latent.
29:03The Supreme Court to judge bench headed by Justice Suryakant stated that the comments
29:07made by Ranbir Alabadia were condemnable, reprehensible, dirty, depraved and perverted.
29:14But at the same time, the Supreme Court has also granted protection from arrest
29:18to the YouTuber as long as he cooperates with the investigation in the case.
29:23The Supreme Court also provided him further relief, stating that no more FIRs can be filed
29:28pertaining to the same set of allegations against him regarding the India's got latent show.
29:33But at the same time, the most important observation coming in from the Supreme Court
29:37was regarding the regulation of content on YouTube. The Supreme Court made it clear that
29:42there is a categorical need to regulate the online content, especially in the current times. And
29:48after this controversy is broken out for this, the Supreme Court has asked the Attorney General
29:53R Venkatramani and Solicitor General Tushar Mehta to both be present on the next state of hearing
29:58to determine as to whether or not the government can do something to regulate this content
30:02or whether the Supreme Court will have to step in. In a very important observation,
30:06the Supreme Court also said that YouTubers and content creators are misusing this vacuum
30:12where there is no regulation and that which is why it is important for the government and the
30:17court to step in to ensure that this vacuum doesn't exist anymore. It remains to be seen
30:22whether the fallout of the Ranveer Alabadia case will impact just him and his associates
30:27or the larger community of content creators in India. With Srishti Ojha in New Delhi,
30:33this is Nalini Sharma for India Today.
30:47Has this case where a YouTuber has made rude remarks, remarks that I don't want to repeat here
30:54on the show? Will the regulation though lead worryingly to censorship as some fear?
31:00Is in the end self-regulation the best solution? What's the way ahead?
31:04I'm joined by Hitesh Jain. He's advocate both at the Bombay and the Supreme Court of India.
31:10He's close to the Bharatiya Janata Party. Orgo Sengupta is lawyer and founder of Vidhi Centre
31:14for Legal Policy, was also part of the committee that was looking at privacy and data protection
31:20laws. Appreciate both of you joining us. Hitesh, to you first. Do you believe that the time has
31:26come to regulate digital content? Is Ranveer Alabadia's case a turning point? Should YouTubers
31:31get away with things that a Rajdeep Sardesai cannot on his show? Well, I think a reasonable
31:36regulation is always necessary to, I mean, prevent harm without stifling the free speech.
31:43That's my personal view. Because even under the law, if you look at the constitution,
31:49as differentiated from the American constitution, we do not have absolute free speech. And the free
31:56speech is always subject to reasonable restriction. So as long as the regulations are reasonable,
32:02and they do not stifle. If I may ask who in your view should do these regulations,
32:07who should be the regulator, Hitesh? Well, the lawmaking body, of course,
32:12is the government of India, the parliament will have to make the laws or frame the regulations.
32:19So you're saying parliament frames regulation, parliament frames the laws.
32:22Government will frame the regulation.
32:24Under which YouTubers must operate. Orgo Sengupta, are we heading, therefore,
32:29to possibly some form of censorship? See Rajdeep, I think the question is not whether
32:35Ranveer Allahabadia should be held to a different standard as Rajdeep Sardesai. Ranveer
32:40Allahabadia has the same standard as Rajdeep Sardesai. If you say something obscene, and if
32:44he says something obscene, then the criminal laws apply. So I think that's not the question. The
32:48question really is on YouTube. Because the fact is that you can't get away today, if you are
32:53printing something in a newspaper, there is liability that exists for editors for what they
32:58are printing. But YouTube does not have this liability today because YouTube is seen in law
33:03as an intermediary. And as an intermediary, then what it gets to say is that I don't know about
33:08what content is being posted on my website. I am merely an intermediary, people get to post that
33:13content. Now that was done at a time when YouTube was a startup in the Silicon Valley in the 1990s,
33:19and it wouldn't have been able to grow. But now that it has grown into this behemoth,
33:22it's no longer YouTube, it's part of Google. We really need to revisit the fact that YouTube
33:27should have reasonably blanket intermediary safe harbor from intermediary liability. So one
33:35is that we need to think about what kinds of regulations are needed for intermediaries such
33:41as YouTube, number one. Number two, and I think this is very critical, is that if you see Ranbir
33:46Alambadya's comments, I think it's too distasteful to even discuss, I think there's no two views on
33:51that. But the fact is that I think the most harmful effect of this is on children. And the
33:57cat is really out of the bag before even we are starting to talk about regulation, because everyone
34:02knows about what has been said, and not been said. So here, I think that we need to take some
34:07stronger measures, such as the of the kinds that Australia has done, which is look to ban children
34:15from social media, including YouTube, below a certain age, children should not be allowed.
34:22One minute, one minute, one minute, one minute, you've raised an important point. And I just want
34:25to go glow, tell you what happens globally. And then come back to our goal, regular regulation
34:29of online content. United Kingdom, there's an online safety act 2023, providers of certain
34:35internet services should take measures to protect users from illegal content. In US, there's the US
34:42Communications Decency Act, platforms are not held liable for user posted content. That's
34:47important. Australia, which you just cited their online safety act, restricted access system
34:54declaration in in place at all times that limits exposure of those under 18 to pornography of
35:01inappropriate content and the European Union Digital Services Act calls for a crackdown on
35:07all illegal and problematic content. Now, you're saying that we could go the Australia way that if
35:11I'm under 18, I will be denied access to YouTube. I'm sitting in my house. Who are you know, are you
35:17telling me police will enter people's rooms to check whether an 18 year old or 17 year old is
35:23watching porn or watching obscene content? No, actually, the it's actually not about porn or
35:28obscene content. Because this information that you had about Australia is a little bit dated,
35:32what they have actually done is ensured that persons under the age of 16 now cannot create
35:37social media accounts. And there is age appropriation, very age appropriate verification
35:42that is done in order to ensure this. So it is not as if you're inviting police into people's
35:46houses, the police does not have the capacity to do this. And we don't want the police to do this.
35:50But the fact is, this responsibility should be on platforms to ensure that people who are
35:55using them are people who are adults who understand what it is that they're doing.
36:00And that's point number one. Point number two, in terms of the Indian law, the Indian law is taken
36:05from the section 230 of the Communication Decency Act in the United States that you talked about,
36:09which kind of gives what is called a blanket safe harbor. And countries have moved away from that.
36:14Now there is a real challenge when you move away from that, which is what you were pointing out to
36:17to Hitesh, which is the fact that we also don't want the government regulating because the government
36:22amended these intermediary liability rules to introduce digital fact checking units. And we
36:26know that there was a problem there because the government would decide then what is false or
36:30what is misleading. But the question here is not on falsity or misleading speech. The question here
36:35is on obscenity. And I think here there needs to be some guidelines that have to be followed
36:40by platforms such as YouTube, that what users can or cannot post on those platforms.
36:46So you're saying the platform will have to have some limited liability, correct?
36:51The platform will have to have some limited liability. Now I understand the dangers are that
36:55it should not restrict free speech excessively, but it has to have some form of limited liability.
37:00It can't simply say the user has posted it, Ranbir Allahabadi has done it and I don't know anything
37:04about this. It cannot work that. You agree with that Hitesh? That somewhere YouTube and these
37:09intermediaries, you know, these are global conglomerates. And we've tried in the past,
37:14even with a Twitter and a Facebook to clamp down on some content. Most governments have not
37:20succeeded. That's the truth of the matter. And therefore, these big media conglomerates in the
37:26social media space seem to get away with it. See Rajdeep, this is an evolving issue and any
37:32answer or any debate on this is going to be subjective. We are going to learn by the day.
37:37I mean, earlier people spoke like as Argya was mentioning, people spoke about the safe harbor
37:43and how it was important when YouTube was a startup or most of the platforms were startup.
37:48Now they have become global conglomerate. Now when it becomes a global conglomerate,
37:53there are issues like disinformation, misinformation, obscenity. Now you cannot
37:58make one yardstick that regulation only for obscenity, but then what about the disinformation
38:03and misinformation? This debate is not just happening in India. It is happening. I mean,
38:07you would have read about the news of the speech of the American US vice president in European
38:13union was all about how Germany was restricting the free speech that if anyone is posting any
38:19meme criticizing the government, the people were being arrested. In UK you saw thousands,
38:23I mean, they speak about the free speech, but thousands of people who were criticizing the
38:27government, they were arrested and lodged for months. I mean, that's the debate everywhere
38:33that is happening. The countries who are champions of free speech are themselves
38:39thinking and they are putting forth the thought that there has to be a reasonable regulation.
38:43Now, what is that reasonable regulation? What is the disinformation? What is the misinformation?
38:48This is something in the air. Yeah, but my worry, you know, when I debated, you know,
38:55of course, there will be people who will worry about all the angles are concerned. But according
38:59to me, disinformation, misinformation, and access to obscenity for the young children
39:05is also equally, it's these are all important issues. And we cannot just on the name of free
39:11speech, just throw them below the carpet. Okay, you know, the truth of the matter,
39:15is when I hear the word regulation, I also, you know, get a sense of censorship. That's my worry.
39:27And you can respond to that just a few days ago, there is a cartoon which has been drawn
39:32on Prime Minister Modi and Donald Trump by some Tamil digital site and a newspaper.
39:38Immediately that digital site has been taken down. You see, once you give so much of power
39:43to government to decide they can take this down, take that down, then you're entering a very,
39:47very dangerous area, don't you think? No, I will answer the question. As far as the guidelines are
39:53concerned, it's not that in India, we do not have, we have this intermediary guidelines 2021,
39:58which puts some set of code of ethics for the OTT platform, it puts a code of conduct also for the
40:04this platforms like big, significant social media intermediaries are concerned. And if you
40:10look at the regulation, the government is not censoring, the burden is cast upon the platform
40:15that they have to take the steps, they have to take the steps to regulate, they have to ensure
40:20obscenity is not there, they have to ensure that there is no stifling of free speech and all. So,
40:25if you will look when the government had got the responsibility, if you will look at the
40:292021 intermediary guidelines, there is zero restriction put in fact, even when it comes to
40:34OTT, the self-regulation for the government, in fact, introduced self-regulation for the OTT.
40:41And today it is Supreme Court is saying that it is high time that we don't think this is working.
40:47And therefore, the government should sort the views. So, when the government of the day was
40:52called upon, the government believed in self-regulation, leaving it to the platform
40:57to decide the code of conduct. But then you saw, I mean, you gave one example, what happened to
41:02when she was in Maharashtra, she drew a cartoon on Sharad Pawar and she was inside
41:06for four months. What happened to people from Tamil Nadu are coming and the Tamil Nadu state
41:14government is invoking, Telangana is invoking, Karnataka is invoking. If you will see the
41:19history of the Congress government, in fact, if you will look the first amendment, I don't want
41:24to make it a freedom of speech, the Congress was a BJP, but Rajdeep, what was the first amendment
41:29to the constitution of India? Restriction on freedom of speech. And who will introduce that?
41:34Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. I mean, you cannot run away.
41:37I am not making, Itesh, every government, Itesh, this is not Congress versus BJP.
41:44I am not saying that.
41:45One minute, one minute. Mamata Banerjee's government has arrested cartoonists for Facebook posts.
41:50I think you could have given a neutral example.
41:52Okay. I am giving you the most recent example, Itesh, that's all.
41:57Recent example, there are so many. I will give you the most recent example by all the government.
42:01Okay. Okay.
42:02Let's not make it a Congress versus BJP.
42:04I did not mention any political party.
42:06I did not.
42:07One minute, Itesh, one minute. Let me bring in Argo at this moment. You made your point. Argo,
42:13you know, the point is, my worry, which Itesh is saying, don't worry, is simply that all
42:18governments, the moment you give them any kind of excessive powers to regulate content,
42:23they can go out of control.
42:25They will, today, of course, Ranbir Allahabadia's comments may be seen as obscene
42:30by most neutral observers as well.
42:32But there are other comments that may be humorous, satirical,
42:35but they can lead to content being pulled down.
42:37The fear is, where will it stop? Who will draw that line?
42:40But more importantly, where will that line be drawn?
42:43Yeah, so Rajdeep, I think first, it's imperative to characterize this as a state and citizen issue
42:50with business in the middle, rather than make it a party political one.
42:53All parties have behaved largely the same way when they are in power.
42:57So that's the first point.
42:58The second, as far as the state and citizen is concerned,
43:01I think there needs to also be a debate on obscenity being criminally penalized.
43:08Because the fact is, we may find the statement completely distasteful and disgusting.
43:12But the fact is that are we a society where we are going to put this person in jail,
43:17especially when on that show, when people had seen it, they have said that people were laughing
43:22at this so called joke that was being passed.
43:24So as a society, as we are laughing at these profane jokes, but at the same time,
43:28we are pretending as if we want to put these people in prison,
43:31because they have shocked our conscience.
43:32That's hypocrisy.
43:34So yeah, I think this is hypocrisy.
43:36So I think that as far as the criminal penalties is concerned, this is not the way to go.
43:40Because you can't, what will we get by putting somebody like Ranveer
43:43Allahabadia in jail for this stupid statement that he has made?
43:46It is an absolute silliness.
43:47And I think that we should learn to ignore such statements and move on.
43:50But the larger question, and I think you are legitimate in saying that there is a worry that
43:55the moment you are regulating, the question will come, who's regulating?
43:58I'm reminded of this statement made by Justice Potter Stewart in the American Supreme Court,
44:02when he was asked as to what is obscenity, and he had said that I know it when I see it,
44:06I can't define it.
44:07So the fact is that it is something like that, as in you just kind of,
44:10you know, you feel that this is obscene.
44:12So who draws that line?
44:13And I think there, the key point is that there should be some checks and balances
44:19by which there are certain steps that are taken by all platforms to ensure that content that
44:26is seen as obscene, lascivious, that can really titillate and that's its main purpose,
44:32that kind of content is either shown if it is extreme or shown with due warnings, number one.
44:39And number two, as far as children are concerned, I think that we need to,
44:44and I'm being provocative here and extreme, but I think we need to stop access to YouTube
44:49for children.
44:50Stop access to YouTube for children.
44:52Easier said than done.
44:54You've said something provocative.
44:55I don't know how the government will actually be able to ensure that a child user sitting,
45:01I maintain, in the privacy of his room suddenly finds that the content is denied to him or her.
45:06It's not going to be easy.
45:08It may well lead eventually to some form of excessive policing.
45:11But I take the larger point.
45:13The larger point is we cannot allow intermediaries to get away
45:17by simply saying they have nothing to do with it.
45:19And it's actually not a question of censorship, Rajiv, just one,
45:2210 seconds, is that it's actually a question of a level playing field.
45:26Newspapers have this responsibility.
45:28TV channels have these responsibilities.
45:30So why not these?
45:31I have it.
45:31I have it.
45:32India Today has it.
45:32If something goes on this network, India Today's entire team will be,
45:36a leadership team will be hauled up by the courts.
45:38So it cannot just be Ranveer Alabadi.
45:40At some stage, intermediaries will also have to take greater responsibility.
45:44Hitesh Jain, Orgos and Gupta for joining me here on the show tonight.
45:48Thank you both very much.
45:49Hopefully, what we are going to see is an educated, informed debate.
45:53In fact, that's what we want to do on this show.
45:55As you can see, we are keeping away some of the shouting brigade as far as possible
46:00and getting in educated, informed opinion.
46:03Let's turn to our next story, our ground report.
46:06It was our top story yesterday.
46:08And we are following up what's happening in a university in Bhubaneswar.
46:11Five staffers, including three directors and two security guards have been arrested
46:16in connection with students protesting over the alleged suicide of a Nepali student
46:21at Kalinga Institute of Industrial Technology in Bhubaneswar.
46:26The arrests followed protests over the manner of her death and allegations
46:30that the entire university staff was targeting Nepali students.
46:34The vice chancellor of the university has issued an apology.
46:38The Odisha government has ordered an inquiry.
46:40Take a look.
46:42We want justice! We want justice!
46:5120-year-old Prakriti Lamsal from Nepal, a third-year B.Tech student at Odisha's Kalinga
46:57Institute of Industrial Technology, was found hanging from her hostel room on Sunday.
47:02The student's ex-boyfriend, Adveik Srivastav, has been arrested
47:07and is accused of abetting the girl's suicide with constant harassment.
47:12The victim's father too alleged blackmail and harassment by the accused.
47:36Facing mounting outrage for his mishandling of the situation,
47:40the KIIT university issued an apology for harassment and forceful eviction of Nepali students.
47:46The university sacked two security personnel and suspended two hostel officials
47:51and a senior international relations officer.
47:55A 24-7 helpline has also been opened to facilitate the return of its Nepali students.
48:10The staff have been actively persuading students to return to the campus as soon as possible.
48:25This group of KIIT professors taunting the Nepalese students triggered wide outrage.
48:40Prompting an apology by one of the professors.
48:48I want to take a moment to apologize for my recent remarks regarding Nepal
48:52when handling a student protest that escalated beyond control.
48:56My intention was never to offend or demean anyone.
48:59And I deeply regret if my words caused unintended harm to the sentiments of anyone.
49:07Tensions gripped the university after students accused the college of a cover-up
49:12and turned up in large numbers to demand justice for Prakriti.
49:15The cries of justice for Prakriti Lamsal are growing louder.
49:19Bureau report, India Today.
49:24All I can say is college administrations need to get their act together.
49:28You bring in these thousands of students from across the world,
49:31you need to be more sensitive to students' concerns.
49:34What we saw today in Bhubaneswar is a response to the anger that many students have,
49:40I can tell you, traveling across campuses in this country.
49:44They want their administrations to be far more sensitive to students' concerns.
49:50In this case, it's taken the tragic death by suicide of a Nepali student
49:55to trigger some of that anger.
49:57Let's come to in this age of disinformation and misinformation,
50:01our daily India Today fact check.
50:03We take up fake news and misleading content on the internet
50:07and bring you the true picture.
50:08Today's fact check is on a video doing the rounds,
50:11claiming to show a rare astronomical event at the Mahakumbh 2025.
50:16It's actually from Australia in 2022.
50:18Take a look what our fact check team found.
50:21You are watching fact check segment where we bust fake news.
50:24A viral photo claiming to show a rare astronomical event at Mahakumbh 2025
50:28is actually from Australia in 2022.
50:31The image shows Jupiter, Saturn, Sun and Moon aligned,
50:34but a fact check team found it was an old picture with no connection to Mahakumbh.
50:38The photo was taken by Ren Thelen on 28th April 2022.
50:42Despite claims that this is a rare event seen for the first time in 144 years,
50:47similar planetary alignments have occurred in recent years.
50:50This fact check on viral fake news is done by India Today's team AFA.
50:54This is AI Sana signing off.
51:07to reach the exam center.
51:10It's gone viral.
51:11Why did the young boy have to take recourse to this?
51:14Take a look at our Only in India story.
51:38The venue has gone viral.
51:41The road was completely jammed.
51:43The road was half way through and the traffic was completely jammed.
51:49The owner of Jeep Adventure, Govind Devlesar, heard my call.
51:53I had no other option.
51:55I took a decision.
51:57I told him I could go down from there.
51:59He told me to get ready and go.
52:05Samarth had gone to Panchgani for some work.
52:07For good luck.
52:09Forgetting that he had an exam.
52:11By the time he remembered,
52:13only 20 minutes were left.
52:17I told him,
52:19if you want to reach on time,
52:21will you be able to fly?
52:23He got a little angry.
52:25He was scared too.
52:27But I told him,
52:29you have no other option.
52:31He told his friend,
52:33to get my clothes, papers,
52:35and identity.
52:38The incident took place
52:40on December 15.
53:02The good news is,
53:04Samarth cleared the exam.
53:07And as they say,
53:09all is well that ends well.
53:11With Imtiaz Mujawar, Bureau Report,
53:13India Today.
53:37.
53:39.
53:41.
53:43.
53:45.
53:47.
53:49.
53:51.
53:53.
53:55.
53:57.
53:59.
54:01.