Tell Me Why podcast host Maria Botros is joined by Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Summer Fakhro, from The LightHouse Arabia to tell us why women suffer from postpartum depression.
1 in 5 women suffer from postpartum depression
There is a difference between postpartum blues and postpartum depression
Men can also experience postpartum depression
A woman experiences a mix of physical, cognitive, behavioral and emotional changes when going through postpartum depression
Postpartum challenges usually start within the first year of a child's birth
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#UAEnews #depression #mentalhealth
1 in 5 women suffer from postpartum depression
There is a difference between postpartum blues and postpartum depression
Men can also experience postpartum depression
A woman experiences a mix of physical, cognitive, behavioral and emotional changes when going through postpartum depression
Postpartum challenges usually start within the first year of a child's birth
See more videos at https://gulfnews.com/videos
Read more Gulf News stories here: https://bit.ly/2HLJ2km
Subscribe to Gulf News on YouTube and watch more of our videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/GulfNewsTV
#UAEnews #depression #mentalhealth
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NewsTranscript
00:00With the baby blues, we're really expecting this in the first month, and it doesn't usually last beyond that. We then have a few clinical
00:08diagnoses that we're thinking about, so postpartum depression,
00:11postpartum anxiety,
00:13postpartum OCD,
00:15postpartum rage. You know, these are things that
00:19usually start within the first year. It doesn't need to be in the first few weeks. Again,
00:23there's a really large number of women who are going through this.
00:26It's actually one in five right now, and I think the better we get at assessing, you'll see this number go up even more.
00:41Welcome guys to a whole new episode of Tell Me Why, which is a Gulf News original podcast.
00:47For those of you who've been listening to us lately, you know that we ask each guest a Tell Me Why question.
00:54It's a unique question for each of our guests, because we like to dig deeper when it comes to certain topics.
01:00We don't like to settle for those, you know, cliche,
01:04vague answers that we can get,
01:07you know, either from a textbook or from the internet. We like to dig deeper.
01:11We like to give you the answers that you need. Joining us in the studio is Dr. Summer,
01:17who is a clinical psychologist at Lighthouse Arabia and the lead for Women's Health Services.
01:23And today we're going to be discussing postpartum depression, which is,
01:28which has been a buzzword for quite some time.
01:31And we feel like more and more women are coming forward with their challenges postpartum.
01:36And we thought this is a great opportunity to start the conversation and to get more information about
01:44postpartum challenges for both women and their partners. Dr. Summer, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Maria.
01:51So tell us a bit more about
01:53Women's Health Services and how you got into that. Sure. So
01:57recently, just in the past six months, the Lighthouse Arabia,
02:00we've recognized in our clinic that there's been a real need to support women in the community.
02:07So we know that women go through particular life experiences that make them more vulnerable to mental health difficulties.
02:15Only one of these is going through childbirth and
02:18the postpartum period. But we also think about, you know, the experience of a teenager getting her period and we go through PMS every month and
02:27certain women's cancers, for example, that make us more vulnerable and menopause.
02:32So we recognize that there's a real need in our community. And although we'd been
02:38specialized in supporting women for a long time,
02:41we wanted to make it clear to everyone that the help is out there if they need it. And one of my passions has been
02:48women in the postpartum period or maternal mental health,
02:52which is the mental health of a mother at any stage in her journey as a mother, even in the
02:57journey to becoming a mother, you know, thinking about fertility and things like that. So I got into this.
03:04Again, it's been on my mind and it's been a passion of mine.
03:07It's been dear to my heart as a woman myself, being in a community of strong women.
03:12But the way I started coming into
03:15psychology was working with children primarily. So I worked with children for many years, actually more than
03:2115 years now.
03:23I've been working with children, supporting children with a variety of their needs.
03:29And what I realized in that work more and more was that the more we could get parents on board, the more we saw
03:35effective change in therapy. So then I started to involve parents more in my work and more and more over time
03:41I recognized that the parents' mental health is the center of a child's mental health.
03:47Of course.
03:48And that seemed, you know, I had heard that before, but it only came to life,
03:53I think, when I became a parent about two years ago.
03:56And I started to really recognize the value of this first year of life, the pregnancy period,
04:02you know, the journey of a mother and how important and central that is to the family's happiness.
04:08So that's what brought me to maternal mental health and then
04:12recognizing with a group of clinicians at the Lighthouse that we wanted to start this team for our community.
04:17That's wonderful. You know, I think a major part of that as well is educating the
04:23community and educating parents on the importance of mental health because you were saying, you know, a lot of like the
04:31child's mental health depends on the parents' mental health. It is a ripple effect. It is what you
04:37instill in your child, unfortunately.
04:40And we do have a great responsibility towards our children more than just providing them with food, you know, the basic needs.
04:46It's also their mental health. Have you found it challenging educating parents when it comes to that area?
04:52I think in a way it's instinctive.
04:55It's almost intuitive that every mother knows this deep down because that's our true and when our child is born
05:01we're basically one person, right?
05:03We're physically one person and our hormones are linked, you know, the co-regulation of the heartbeat. We all know this is connected.
05:10So intuitively we know how we feel affects how our child feels.
05:15Sometimes I think some parents who have a very strong internal critic
05:20or self-blame
05:23narrative may become defensive about this in a way and say it's not my fault or kind of project the problem somewhere else.
05:31This is what my child is doing.
05:33So naturally there's going to be some resistance with some particular people
05:37but everyone's different and I think a mother or a parent who is coming to a
05:43psychology service naturally has a level of openness already to this idea.
05:47So typically I've found people are really open to it and really willing to work on themselves.
05:52That's fantastic. Okay.
05:54So let's dive into our topic because it is a special one and it is one that we cannot talk about enough.
06:01I think there's always more to talk about when it comes to postpartum
06:05depression or challenges in general. It doesn't always have to lead to depression.
06:10So before we get started, can you just define what postpartum depression is or what are the challenges?
06:17Yes, definitely. I think this is really important that we go into a bit of detail about this because
06:22one of the questions is
06:24what's in the typical range and what's going into the clinical range and there's so much overlap.
06:30Any mother is going to be spending less time socializing with friends, is going to be having disturbed sleep, is going to be having disturbed eating
06:38because that's the nature of being postpartum.
06:41While at the same time those are some of the symptoms of postpartum depression.
06:45So I'll try and clarify and define a few different terms that might help the listeners understand the differences.
06:53So the first one is baby blues,
06:56which is typically within the first month of having a baby. A mother
07:02in 80% of cases, so you can really say this is the norm, the majority of mothers will experience mood fluctuations,
07:10low mood, feeling really sad, tearfulness,
07:13you know things that
07:15they might have never really experienced in their life. They might have always considered themselves to be an emotionally relatively stable person
07:23but because of this huge surge in hormones and the
07:27you know the seismic shift of the nature of having a child, it's really natural to have big emotions during this time.
07:36But with the baby blues, we're really expecting this in the first month and it doesn't usually last beyond that.
07:42We then have a few clinical
07:45diagnoses that we're thinking about. So clinical would be postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety,
07:52postpartum OCD,
07:54postpartum rage. You know, these are things that
07:58usually start within the first year. It doesn't need to be in the first few weeks.
08:02It can start up even two months after. It could start up three months after.
08:07But with postpartum depression,
08:09again, there's a really large number of women who are going through this. It's actually one in five right now. And I think the more
08:16the better we get at assessing and
08:20you know, women feel more comfortable speaking up. We'll see this number go up even more that
08:24women are truly experiencing clinical depression in the first year of
08:30motherhood. That's a shocking statistic. One in five. It is.
08:34So I know every mother can probably think of five mothers who had
08:38babies in the same year and at least one in five. So that's really a huge number.
08:43So what we expect with postpartum depression is a mix of physical,
08:48cognitive, as in thoughts,
08:52behavioral changes,
08:54emotional changes.
08:56So for example, on the emotional side, you might have a mother that's very tearful,
09:00but it might not only appear as sadness. It might appear as
09:05you know, severe mood fluctuations, a lot of irritability, difficulty maintaining their relationships.
09:12Behaviorally, they might become very withdrawn, you know, refusing to go out,
09:16not
09:18enjoying the same things that they used to. To a certain extent, we expect some of this with every mother, but we
09:24it's usually a partner or a family member who starts saying, you know, my partner isn't acting like themselves anymore.
09:33They start, it's very common to start blaming yourself for things. So saying I'm not a good enough mother. It's my fault.
09:40You know, this very negative inner critic can become very intense.
09:44Severe sleep disturbances. So for example, you have the opportunity to sleep.
09:49We know every mother is very sleep deprived, but even with that opportunity, they're not able to sleep.
09:55Again, there's a lot of overlap with anxiety. Postpartum anxiety is also very common.
09:59The statistics aren't as clear, but it might be around 15% as well.
10:05And anxiety can look like obsessions, obsessive thoughts, intrusive thoughts,
10:11you know, thoughts of harming your child. There's a lot of fear that happens around that.
10:19And we have seen a lot of stories, sorry to cut you off, but we have seen a lot of stories of
10:24women harming their children and themselves potentially. Yes. So there is risk and I think many women start
10:30naturally then having a lot of fear that they might do something negative or something bad might happen to their child.
10:36And we're always looking for
10:38what's the impact of that?
10:40So rather than only looking at the symptom itself,
10:43what's the impact? Does it mean that the mother is no longer able to care for the baby?
10:48Or are they avoiding diaper changes or
10:51avoiding looking after the child or avoiding taking them out because of all the fear?
10:56So again, it's really natural. I can say from personal experience. It's really natural to have intrusive thoughts.
11:02That's a really common part of becoming a mother. A lot of fears about our child and what's best for them.
11:08But is it impacting
11:11to the extent that it's negatively affecting how you can function as a mother? Right.
11:15So you were saying out of experience. Can you tell us about your experience, your postpartum experience?
11:20Yes, sure. I did want to say before we go into that that there's one more area, which is postpartum psychosis.
11:27Right. Which is a separate diagnosis and also a very serious condition to consider. Yes. And for those
11:34mothers to just be looking out for
11:36delusions, so lots of paranoia,
11:40hearing things that other people can't hear, seeing things that other people can't see.
11:44And this does need to be treated immediately by a psychiatrist. And it is a treatable condition.
11:50The same as postpartum depression and anxiety. They are treatable conditions, but help is really needed at that point. That's fantastic.
11:58That was actually one of our listeners' questions. So you answered that right off the bat. So thank you for that.
12:04All right, so we can then get into your experience as a mother. Yeah, definitely.
12:08So, like I said, becoming a mother, it opened my eyes to so much. I had already, of course, been a psychologist and understood
12:17emotions come and go. There's waves of emotions. I was working with children anyway.
12:22But I don't think I ever fully processed the intensity
12:26of the emotions. And I think I told myself for so long, I'm a psychologist, so I can handle this.
12:32I know I have the training. I have all the rules, the shoulds and shouldn'ts.
12:36In a way, I think that set me up for a little bit, even
12:41for everyone that's different, but even more of an internal critic
12:46to saying you should be doing it this way and not that way. And how come you're not doing it the right way?
12:52I see this with so many mothers that
12:55all of our suffering comes from judgment, from setting our expectations unrealistically high.
13:03I think I went into motherhood, like many women do, with this idea of what the perfect mother is.
13:12And
13:13the sad reality is that I never was even close to meeting that. And no one is.
13:18And it's really a painful experience to have to sit with that.
13:23I think there were different points for me that were challenging.
13:28For some women, it can be very early on. It's interesting. Some women will find, for example,
13:34the idea of co-sleeping, sleeping together is too much. For some women, the idea of sleep training
13:40is too much. I don't want to do that. So everyone is so different with their experience of what's
13:45normal and what's expected and their own history and culture. For me, one of the hardest things
13:51I remember was going back to work, making the decision to go back to work.
13:56And the pain of just not knowing what's right for my child. And I can't be, as I said, perfect.
14:04And no one is going to be able to tell me if this is right or wrong.
14:09And no one will be able to say with certainty, your child's going to be just fine.
14:15So we all have to sit with this discomfort of not having the exact answer.
14:21So that stirred up a lot in me around questions around identity. I think many parents go through
14:27this. Am I this type of mother? Should I make this decision? Should I breastfeed? Should I
14:32stop breastfeeding? Should I bottle feed? What kind of bottle? There's so many questions. And
14:38I think the reality is very hard to prepare for the reality that we don't have the exact answers.
14:46There might be some answers out there, but reality is there's information,
14:50but the answer is with you as a mother. You know the answer for you and your child.
14:55So it's reconnecting back to our intuition, which we've been really disconnected from,
15:01I think, for a long time. You know, it's interesting that you mentioned
15:05two things that I wanted to actually elaborate on. One, the perfect mother. I remember my mom
15:11telling me this piece of advice. I'm not yet a mother, but I remember her telling me,
15:18do not compare yourself to someone else. Don't compare yourself to me. She kept telling me as
15:24a mother, I went through so many things that you may have not seen as a child. The perfection does
15:30not exist. And I remember that resonated with me. And I think I will keep reminding myself of that
15:35if I can. And if I'm able to, I will remind myself that as a child, I didn't see the challenges. I
15:41saw the mother that did everything she could for us and was always there. The house was perfect.
15:49She was always there for my father. She was always there for us. And that doesn't exist. Behind that,
15:54there was a lot of pain. There was a lot of challenge. And when you spoke about work,
15:59I think that was one of the major aspects that I saw my friends go through, the guilt that came
16:06with going back to work, with feeling like they failed their children because they have to spend,
16:13I don't know, six, seven hours away from their kids to go to work and then come back,
16:18catch them for two hours before their bedtime. That guilt was so painful. How did you deal with that?
16:26Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because I think we all experience guilt to a certain extent.
16:33If we talk about guilt itself, true guilt, it actually can be quite helpful. I did something
16:39wrong. I'll correct it and that's okay. But I think the epidemic we're facing is actually mom
16:45shame. It's not necessarily mom guilt because we normalize mom guilt. We all have it. It's okay.
16:51It comes and it goes. It tells me what to do or not to do. With mom shame, we are getting more
16:57at a personal level where we're telling ourselves, it's not something that I'm doing wrong that I can
17:02correct. It's that I am a bad mother. I'm not a good enough mother. My child deserves better than
17:10me. Those things, shame is really painful and I think most of our suffering comes from that
17:17shame and judgment of ourselves. All I can say is it's an ongoing journey when I talk about myself.
17:23It's something I'm really working on because what happens in motherhood, the same as what happens
17:29in a couple relationship or in a parent-child relationship or in a friendship, it's not
17:34necessarily about the child. It's about an internal struggle that has pre-existed the child.
17:42There was an internal critic inside of me which I never really heard too much of until I became a
17:49parent. But that helps me realize I need to work on myself and my own self-development and my own
17:56self-love and self-acceptance. Actually, it doesn't have so much to do with my daughter.
18:03It's simply my relationship to myself that needs working. Then when we can get clear on that,
18:10when we feel more at peace with ourselves, we become much clearer on what's right for me.
18:16What direction should I go in? The internal chatter and tension resolves a little bit.
18:23I would like to say I love what your mother said to you. It's so lovely to have someone in your
18:29life who's able to tell you the truth of what motherhood is because there's so much hidden,
18:36I think, in what we see and hear. We don't know that people struggle like we do.
18:44We strive for perfection. Unless we hear it from our mothers who you know you turned out fine and
18:50you're like, okay, this is not that bad. It's really hard to be on the path and feel that
18:57there is something that you're doing wrong. We safeguard our kids from so much that we think
19:02is going to harm them in some way. When they get older, we can be a bit more real with them,
19:08which is probably why. Diving into the technical side of postpartum depression or postpartum OCD
19:18or anxiety, what are the chemical or imbalances, let's say, or the physical implications that it
19:27has on a woman's body? Yes, sure. The thing is our minds and our bodies are so connected. They
19:33are one. We know that. The chemical, there's so much happening at the chemical level. When we
19:39give birth, the surge of oxytocin and all of the stuff that then triggers breastfeeding. We know
19:45at the physical level there's a lot going on. It genuinely does change our brain chemistry. We know,
19:51for example, the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that signals if there's a danger.
19:56That and the activity in that part of the brain changes after you give birth because a woman
20:02becomes very sensitive and aware of danger. A baby's cry becomes a chemical reaction in the
20:09brain to say there's something wrong, which leads to physical symptoms, which also, you know, physical
20:14symptoms of cortisol running in your body. And then that impacts your interest in eating and
20:19your sleep, but then also causes psychological difficulties. You feel anxious, you feel worried
20:25that you're doing something wrong. So that's just one example of how the physical and the emotional
20:30are one. So there is a, as you know, big change in hormones and chemicals in our body.
20:38Our physical body is recovering from birth. So many women are experiencing pain or have might
20:44have experienced a traumatic birth, which puts them at risk of experiencing postpartum depression
20:50or big emotions. So there is there's the chemical side, the hormone side, and similar to any other
20:58depression, there there might be a change in serotonin. And that's why some medication can
21:04have a really helpful impact for mothers who are experiencing depression. On the physical side, we
21:12we notice changes in their eating and their sleeping on their, you know, their weight, for
21:17example, can change. But there are a few things that can put a woman at higher risk for postpartum
21:26depression. One of them is a traumatic birth. Another is a difficult relationship with her
21:32mother, because we start to relive psychologically, we relive many of our relationships and our early
21:39wounds. So early life trauma can resurface. Grief, again, can resurface grief, loss of a parent,
21:47loss of a previous child can resurface a history of depression. If the if the pregnancy was unplanned,
21:56that can sometimes also put a parent at risk. But I don't want to say that too concretely,
22:02because I also see many women who have been trying for so long to get pregnant, put years of work
22:09into getting on this journey of motherhood, and still experience depression. So being depressed
22:15has nothing to do with whether you want your child or not, or whether you're a good mother or not. So
22:20I think that's really important to clarify. Of course. So from your experience as a clinical
22:27psychologist, and someone that's focusing on women's health, recently, can you tell us,
22:33of course, without getting into specifics or details, but can you tell us about certain cases
22:38that have actually successfully overcome, you know, the challenges that they faced or the
22:43depression that they went through postpartum? Definitely. I mean, the the wonderful thing,
22:49I think, about the nature of my work is that there's so much potential for growth with the
22:55child, you know, you're, you're, you're birthing as a mother, right? You're birthing a child,
22:59and now you're a mother, and that's the birth of the mother. And this journey is so magical
23:04and mysterious. At the same time, I do want to say that, for some people, medication can really help.
23:12And I want people to keep an open mind to this. Because there is so much stigma around it. There's
23:18a lot of fear if you're breastfeeding, if you know, what's how's it going to affect my child?
23:23How will it affect me? Will I be dazed? Will I be a zombie? So many fears, but many women have found
23:30and all the research has shown there are many safe drugs to be using. It can be really effective
23:37alongside therapy, I always recommend therapy alongside if a mother is taking medication.
23:44So with some examples, you know, one client I worked with, she didn't use medication, but she
23:50was very anxious. She actually came to me for advice, asking for advice on how to parent a
23:55child. Her baby was only six weeks old. She had started asking about nurseries and sleep training
24:02and feeding. So you could pick up early on that she's always in her life been a high achieving
24:08person. And she wanted to plan step by step what to do as a mother. And a part of me, the parent
24:16coach and me wanted to give advice and tell her what to do for each step of the way. And you know,
24:22I at the same time was going through my own journey. So I was doing my own research. But
24:26the psychologist in me and the I guess the inner, the true me knew that she was probably struggling
24:33to just connect with her child and be present in the moment and not plan the future. So we did a
24:40lot of work on her anxiety, her fears. We got down to early life beliefs. We did a lot of meditation,
24:48things like that just helped her really be present with her child. And you know that her anxiety
24:54really resolved in the first year. But there's, I think there's just so many examples and so many
25:00ways it can go. It's so varied. Typically within the first year or 18 months, I think if a person
25:06is really putting in the work and finding what's right for them, we do see many of the symptoms
25:11resolve. But I do want to say that if it is postpartum depression or anxiety, that time
25:18itself doesn't resolve. Okay, doesn't resolve what's going on, because we can become depressed
25:25about the next thing and the next thing and the anxiety will be about the next thing. So it's
25:29really important to start working, doing your inner work to start addressing what the root is.
25:35Okay, so before I get into my next question, I actually remember I have a friend who told me
25:41about her postpartum, I want to say depression because she went through it for a good six,
25:47seven months, and she was not getting out of it. But I remember her saying this after she got out
25:54of it. I don't know how she did it. She didn't seek help. But I guess she was one of the lucky
25:59ones that kind of sort of got out of it by time. But she was saying that she would wake up every
26:06day wishing something would happen to her. Just naturally, she didn't want to hurt herself.
26:12But she could not get out of that mindset. And I remember her mentioning exactly what you just
26:17spoke about earlier. She had that struggle of cuddling a child and having them there 24 seven
26:23and caring for them all the time. She wasn't working at the time as well. So there wasn't like
26:28a disconnection or like a like a time of her day where she was stepping away. She was there 24 seven.
26:36She didn't have help. She didn't have any of that. And I remember it was so difficult hearing that
26:42from her. It was, it was heartbreaking. And as a person who will eventually think of, you know,
26:47conceiving and having a child, it is something that I think about. So what is your advice for
26:52people like expecting mothers or people who are thinking of taking that step so that they're not
26:57worried going into it? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, so I guess when we're going through a
27:04journey like that, everyone has their own way of getting through it. There's so many ways to do
27:10inner work. We know that we can do it through yoga, we can do it through talking to a friend,
27:16we can do it with a professional, we can do it through, you know, physical therapy, you know,
27:20whatever it is that for each person, it is going to be different. I think it's very common that
27:28early life experiences will resurface. And that will be the deep down the trigger that causes
27:38the difficulty with a child. And, you know, for example, with that person you're speaking about,
27:44I would think what are relationships like for them? What's intimacy like for them? And I don't
27:50mean romantic necessarily, but just into closeness. What was it like with her parents? Because those
27:57things resurface. And if she if she chose in that moment that it wasn't the right time to consider
28:03health, she might notice that this comes up with other relationships. And at that point,
28:07she might consider again, again, it doesn't have to be a psychologist, but there's some inner work
28:13that needs to be explored. So before a person gets pregnant, I always encourage, I think everyone can
28:20benefit from the inner work, inner healing, the journey of discovering who am I really.
28:27We have an inner critic inside of us, women do. And I think it's really common in this region.
28:33We work with many Arabs and we work with many people from eastern countries as well, where
28:39there's very high expectations on women. And women are not meant to have any of their own needs.
28:44We're supposed to be perfect. And most times I ask moms, like, what do you think the perfect
28:50mother is? They say, well, a mother doesn't get angry or a mother who is just able to always be
28:57there for their child. And it's almost like they're not human. There's no humanity. Who is
29:02this person? They're not a person. Yeah. And that's really unhelpful for a child, actually.
29:07It's really helpful for a mother to reorient and remember being a person is what your child needs,
29:15being a whole person. So again, doing that inner work. So figuring, knowing there's this inner
29:22critic inside of me, get familiar with it, know when it's triggered and practice not judging
29:29yourself. You know that that's a really big part of it. So there's some kind of psychological
29:36things, I think, that are important. There's the practical things that are really important,
29:40like who's going to help you out. You know, that's some people overlook it or expect again
29:46that I should be able to do it on my own. My mom did it alone. I have to do it myself too.
29:51And then in Dubai, we have many families who don't have their extended family. So who is it
29:56really who's going to be helping you out when you need a hand? Exactly. So thinking about your
30:01network, your community, your home environment, who's going to be around and not. And then
30:09psychologically getting, I think meditation, personally, I think it's the strongest thing
30:16that can shift our inner work, our inner dialogue from a place of tension and friction and sadness
30:24and anxiety to peace. Yes. And, you know, again, with spirituality, you know, meditation sometimes
30:32goes with spirituality. I think for some people really grounding themselves in something spiritual
30:38can be moving going into that a little more. I'm going to ask you your unique tell me why question,
30:46which is tell me why it's still taboo. Why is it still taboo for women to come forward? Why do
30:54women still think it's taboo to talk about their postpartum depression or their challenges? And,
30:59you know, they have to suffer in silence. Yeah. Well, I think there's as long as we,
31:06we have been aware there's been pressure on women to be perfect, to be the center of our community,
31:13to be the carers of everyone but themselves. And ultimately, I think it comes back to shame
31:19that because we can't meet these expectations, we feel ashamed. There's an idyllic mother who
31:25we create in our mind who provides and provides endlessly. And actually, we forget that we have
31:30our own needs. And we can feel really low. And, you know, I think sometimes people believe that
31:38because I'm feeling low, it means I don't love my child, or I'm not a good mother, or
31:42I should be better, or it's embarrassing, they think I'm not happy. And, you know, I can speak
31:50for myself. I think in the first year, I worked really hard to perform for other people to to
31:56give off an appearance that I'm a good mother. And all of that comes back to, of course, there's
32:02the inner dialogue, but just the cultural, the historic expectations on women, the blame we put
32:08on mothers for things that makes it really hard to just speak openly about how difficult an experience
32:15is. And sometimes we do that to ourselves. Like we always set high expectations and for ourselves,
32:21not even for the people around us. So that must be affecting it. And I think one of the things,
32:26you know, social media, for example, has been, of course, in a way, it's been great, because
32:30information is out there. But yes, at the same time, we're bombarded with images of perfection.
32:36Yes, of mothers doing it better than us. And that's really exhausting. Yes. And, you know,
32:43sleep training and all of these ideas about the way to do it. Again, as a psychologist, I'm like,
32:48I have this down. I know all the strategies. Until I got to it, I was like, Oh, my God,
32:53I can't do this. Because there's I have my own stuff and my own challenges.
32:59Social media is a big one. I know all my friends who are mothers, they always talk about this.
33:03You always see this, these reels of a mother with six children doing it all. And her husband is
33:10super supportive. And it's just like this ideal, perfect picture, you know, picture perfect family.
33:16And it's just not real. And to be honest, it has affected them emotionally and psychologically,
33:22especially after they've just given birth, and they feel like they can't cope with one child.
33:27And here they are looking at a video of a woman doing it with six children, you know,
33:32so it is it is, it's important to remember that it's just not real, and you need to be
33:38real with yourself. Okay, so what would if you were sitting in a room right now?
33:45And this is just a question that I thought of now, because of the statistic that you
33:49mentioned at the very beginning, if you're sitting in a room right now, bearing in mind that one in
33:53five women actually suffer from postpartum depression, and there are like 30 women in the
34:00room, what would your advice be? These women haven't come forward, they haven't spoken about
34:06their challenges. But knowing that there will definitely be women in that room with challenges,
34:11what would your advice be to ease them into that? Yeah, so I think one of the things is the
34:18building of awareness with internal awareness. So I think the more we are aware of what's going on
34:27for us, and by aware, I want to be very clear that we're not judging our experience. So I'm
34:34aware of the thoughts that go on in my mind, or the sensations that come up in my body.
34:39But I'm not judging it as good or bad. Then they feel that really empowers a woman to be able to
34:46speak up, whether that's to a friend, to a colleague, to their gynecologist. Because
34:54the point where we get stuck is either the awareness is not there, and they're experiencing
34:59physical symptoms, and they don't know what's the stomach aches, headaches, tension, or they're
35:04experiencing again, like they don't want, they've lost interest in everything. But they're not
35:08connecting that all of these experiences are connected to each other. So sometimes they're
35:15not necessarily aware of what's going on. Sometimes they're so judgmental of that experience
35:21that they're not willing to speak to anyone about it. So I think those two are those are two really
35:27important barriers to encourage people to just speak to the people you trust, the people you love,
35:33the your pediatrician, your gynecologist, whoever is there. The other thing I would say is tomorrow
35:41to women, again, at the psychological level is get comfortable in the unknown. Get comfortable
35:48not knowing what the answer is. Many women, I think, who live in our community in Dubai,
35:54were women who came here to work or high achieving or always go go go doing in a busy city.
36:01But with motherhood is very different. A lot of it is about not knowing the answer and accepting
36:07that you don't know and that the answers will reveal themselves and I can just be with what it
36:13is. So practicing that regularly. That's really nice. I like that. Getting comfortable with the
36:19unknown or the uncomfortable, basically. Exactly. Yeah, with the uncertainty. Very, very nice.
36:25All right. So we talk about postpartum and its effects on women. How does it affect the men?
36:32So men also do experience mood changes. I mean, of course, we have the physical side of what a
36:39woman goes through. Statistically, interestingly, they're saying about eight to 10% of men may
36:45experience postpartum depression in the first year after their child is born. Again, a mother is going
36:53through a big shift, but so is a father. His life has totally changed. It's flipped upside down.
37:00And they might have experienced lots of changes in their relationship to their wife. So again,
37:07this is happening for men. They are experiencing it. It might look quite different. There might
37:11be a lot of restlessness and agitation. They might appear very indecisive. They might seem
37:19like workaholics, you know, spending all their time at work. We also know that with men, even
37:26outside of the postpartum period, the way depression shows itself is quite different.
37:32Sometimes it just looks like anger, which is covering up sadness, confusion, things like that.
37:38Because there's socially acceptable ways a man can show their feelings, and there's socially
37:43acceptable ways a woman can show her feelings. But deep down, it might actually be something
37:49like depression. So men are less likely to ask for help. And that's very worrying, because we know
37:56that outside of postpartum, we know that men are at higher risk for suicide, things like that
38:02externalizing behavior, aggression, you know, ending up in prison, things like that. But we are trying
38:08at the Lighthouse also, we're trying to be much more proactive about having a men's support group,
38:13doing things for fathers, things like that, to make sure they feel included in this journey.
38:20You know, mentioning support groups, that's a good, you know, segue into the questions that we have
38:26here. We actually got a question from a listener asking, she's a 32-year-old who is saying,
38:34I've been doing well, I don't need to speak to a medical professional per se, but I would like to
38:40share my challenges with other mothers, where we can support each other. Does that exist in Dubai,
38:46and where can I find them? Yes. So there are lots of different communities and spaces for
38:52mothers, which is so lovely. And there's, there are really good forums online that
38:58give you an updated list. So I would consider if it's non-clinical, I would consider things like
39:03coffee mornings, they have mom coffee mornings, they have mom meditation groups, there are,
39:11you know, messy play activities for children, but the mothers sit together and have tea. So
39:16there's lots of activities, just googling it actually will give lots of answers.
39:22We used to, at the Lighthouse, have a postnatal mental health support group online. I used to run
39:30that. It was about two years ago. We actually stopped that group, and I'll explain why, and we
39:36started something else in its place. So the thing with that group is, firstly, I think for a mother
39:42in the first few months, it's really hard to find the time, designated time to go to a support group,
39:50to, you know, get dressed, and some don't want to appear on camera, some do, and the baby's crying,
39:55no schedule, things like that. So that, there was a bit of a barrier with people making use of the
40:00group, and what we realized is we wanted to create a one-to-one space for a mother to be able to
40:06share what she's going through and essentially screen her well-being. So it's not a clinical
40:14intervention, it's more like a well-being check. So it's just an any average person who is pregnant
40:20or has had a baby in the past year, they come up to the Lighthouse, they have this postnatal or
40:26prenatal well-being check, and it's just an hour to speak to a psychologist, and they can give you
40:31some resources, they can just screen what's been going on for you, give you some advice on how to
40:36move forward. So that's a one-to-one space. But like I said, there are different clinics and also
40:42non-clinical spaces for mothers that exist in Dubai, and I really encourage moms to make use
40:47of this because it's so important to feel connected. Of course, and I feel like I've seen
40:52this with my friends who are mothers, when they sit together and one of them mentions something
40:57and they go, oh my gosh, me too, I just experienced that last week. It makes them feel so much better
41:03just talking about it and just knowing that someone else is also going through the same
41:07thing, and that it helps with the self-shame because it just, it helps you feel at ease,
41:13like okay, I'm okay, it's fine, this is normal. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so our next question is
41:19also a good one, and I think we did cover it briefly in the beginning, but maybe we can answer
41:25it as well. Also anonymous because a lot of our listeners wanted to stay anonymous. I've been
41:31feeling down since I gave birth two months ago. I always read about postpartum depression, but I'm
41:36not sure if I should seek help now or wait it out. Who do I go to and what do I say? Yeah,
41:42this is, this is actually a really good question. How do I start, like what do I tell them?
41:46Yes, well, I think the first thing is many times it's wonderful that this person has been willing
41:53to speak up and consider whether this is right for them or not. One thing to consider is just
42:00booking an appointment with a psychologist. You know, I did that when I was pregnant and I'm so
42:06glad that I did because I think that everyone's experience is so different and there's a very
42:11fine line between what's clinical versus what's just a struggle, but there's no harm.
42:17Well, if she's able to book an appointment with a psychologist, I'd encourage her to,
42:21and not to worry about what to say because the psychologist will ask all the questions.
42:25Will draw it out. They'll draw it out, yeah, they'll help you, they'll guide you as needed,
42:30and it might just be that's a one-off or they might suggest working on some things together.
42:35All right, we've kept you for so long. Thank you so much for your time. Are there any closing
42:40remarks that you'd like to end with? I think just a general statement to women out there to
42:46make use of the people in your community, to connect with each other, and to work as hard
42:52as possible on not judging yourselves. You know, we're all here together. We all go through
42:56hardship and we all, you know, value each other and what each of us brings. So yeah,
43:04just a message of connection to women out there, everything you're going through.
43:07That's very sincere. Thank you so much, Dr. Sommer. Thank you guys for listening. If you
43:12have any questions, we will always love to have Dr. Sommer back on the show. Send us your questions
43:20on podcasts at gulfnews.com. We'll be sure to have them answered and we'd love to have Dr.
43:25Sommer back on the show. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for having me.