Are arts and humanities subjects less important than science, mathematics and technology?
Or is this just a long-standing misperception that needs to be challenged?
In this episode of Life and the City podcast, hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab explore the idea that subjects like literature, music, and the arts are "less valuable" than the sciences with Prof Dr Mohd Tajuddin Mohd Rasdi, an architecture lecturer at UCSI University and The Star columnist.
They unpack why this perception still persists, how it shapes Malaysian students and whether it’s time to reset the narrative.
Expect real-life anecdotes and expert perspectives as they dissect this issue.
The podcast series airs fortnightly and highlights topics related to urbanites.
The podcast is available at www.youtube.com/@thestaronline/podcasts and on www.thestar.com.my/metro
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
Or is this just a long-standing misperception that needs to be challenged?
In this episode of Life and the City podcast, hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab explore the idea that subjects like literature, music, and the arts are "less valuable" than the sciences with Prof Dr Mohd Tajuddin Mohd Rasdi, an architecture lecturer at UCSI University and The Star columnist.
They unpack why this perception still persists, how it shapes Malaysian students and whether it’s time to reset the narrative.
Expect real-life anecdotes and expert perspectives as they dissect this issue.
The podcast series airs fortnightly and highlights topics related to urbanites.
The podcast is available at www.youtube.com/@thestaronline/podcasts and on www.thestar.com.my/metro
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00Today, I have a story to share with our listeners and my co-host Aida and our guests.
00:10When I was doing my A-Level, me and my friends, we had a discussion about our country's education
00:16system and one of my friends suggested this idea that we should do away with arts and
00:24humanities subjects.
00:25He meant subjects like history, literature, language.
00:29He said these subjects are not important and therefore, we should focus more on technical
00:34subjects like science and maths.
00:36Some would call it STEM.
00:37That's a good discussion and good and very bold suggestion.
00:44We are back for the second episode of Life in the City podcast and we have a prolific
00:49writer and professor with us today to share his views on arts and humanities subjects,
00:58whether they are less important than science and tech.
01:01Before we get into our episode today, we'd like to highlight some of our stories that
01:07are on Star Online and in the Star.
01:10Extreme weather is expected in Borneo again, Farid, and we know about the devastating floods
01:17that happened in that region.
01:21In Metro, there is a story about greater transparency needed when it comes to contracts.
01:28Our FD Minister has announced that they might revive Carcosa for the upcoming ASEAN delegation.
01:35That should be exciting.
01:37So, Farid, why don't you introduce our guest today?
01:41Yes, so we have with us today Prof. Dr. Mohamad Tajuddin Mohamad Razdi, who is also Professor
01:48of Architecture at Tan Sri Omar Centre for Science, Technology and Innovation Policy
01:53Studies at UCSR University.
01:56Prof. has agreed to be with us today to discuss this topic that we have, Perception versus
02:01Reality, Are Arts and Humanities Subjects Less Important Than Science and Tech?
02:06So thank you for joining us today, Prof.
02:09Yes, Professor Tajuddin is not only a prolific writer, he is a speaker on architecture, politics,
02:17social issues, religion, education, and he is currently a columnist at the Star as well.
02:23He's also a Professor of Philosophy.
02:25Welcome, Prof.
02:26We're happy to have you here today.
02:27Well, thank you for having me.
02:29Prof, if you don't mind, could you please just tell us a little bit about yourself and
02:35what do you do, and also maybe tell us a bit about the columns you've been writing for us.
02:41Oh, thank you very much.
02:42First of all, my background is, of course, people say, known as architecture, and I was
02:48educated in the United States for six years, and after that, my PhD in Edinburgh for three
02:58years, and I think much of the upbringing that I have been exposed to, actually, even
03:06from the very early beginning, was, number one, the television, the black and white television,
03:13and before RTM has a lot of the Malay shows, you're subjected to all the Scooby-Doo, you
03:20probably don't know the cartoon Scooby-Doo, and then my favourite series of Voyage to
03:27the Bottom of the Sea, that sort of thing, all this English-speaking thing, and until
03:31the day came when I was able to read books, then I got caught up with all the Annie Brighton
03:37books, and this had led me to an understanding of the world as outside of just being a Malay,
03:45as well as a Muslim. Now, when I was in the United States, I was exposed to a very important
03:51aspect of my life, which is the two of them. One, of course, the exposure to architecture,
03:56but the other thing is about the Islamic reform movement, what is called Islamic reform movement.
04:01So when I look back, the columns that I have been writing about is, you could say something
04:06about a reflection on what it means to be a Muslim, and also what it means to be a Muslim
04:16in a world which is having all the aspects of science, having all these aspects of other
04:27interpretations of life, which you might call art or humanities, and also having this interpretation
04:33of how do we live with each other. The idea of religion, then came to me, is about respecting
04:43others, that the highest point of religion is about respecting others, even though many
04:50people believe that religion is about your relationship with God, but I say you cannot
04:54establish your relationship with God unless you find it in your heart to actually appreciate
05:01and respect others. This is my own epiphany.
05:04It's a multi-pronged approach, and what you were saying earlier, Farid, about how there
05:09is talk about sidelining arts and humanities subjects.
05:15Yeah, so back to what I was saying about the discussion I had with my friends, so a couple
05:21of my friends actually agreed to the idea, you know, we should do away with literature
05:24subjects, with histories, you know, moral studies, and that made me realise, you know,
05:31that there is this perception among some segments of our community that, you know, we should
05:38focus more, or just only on science and maths subjects, because those are the subjects deemed
05:44important, and it just so happened that last week, or I think a few days ago, Ida came
05:48across this book, Resetting Malaysia, which was written by a prof, Resetting Malaysia,
05:55Education, Faith and Society, and in that, there is a chapter in which you wrote about
06:00how important it is to have a balance, you know, you said that, you know, arts and humanities
06:04subjects are just as important. So maybe, Prof, you can share a little bit with our
06:09listeners, why do you think that is the case?
06:12Well, first of all, if you turn on the news, and much of the concerns now is usually about
06:22how we relate to each other, and whether it's about something called a race-related issue,
06:30or something called, or a religious, a religion-related issue, all these are what we call humanistic
06:37concerns, the idea of being human. What is the idea of being human? Part of the idea
06:42of human is being able to eat, and procreate, and all that, and the other part is about
06:47how to relate with one another. But of course, there is also the third part, relating to
06:52some unknown idea about another power, or another inspiration, and things like that.
07:02So there are actually three parts to being a human being. Now, I find that our education
07:09is concentrating on the biological part, and perhaps it was right for our forefathers to
07:17actually concentrate on that in the early days. I remember during my time, where we
07:26wanted to have this industrialized nation, I think under Dr. Marti, that became a reality,
07:32and that required learning about what your friend has said about all these things.
07:37Now, the assumption I assumed then, I guess, was that the society will take care of the
07:44so-called humanistic part, because the school then will just operate on the survival, biological,
07:53economic part. But of course then, it doesn't happen that way, and the testament here is
07:59when we see what's happening in our country. I traced it to the idea that the education
08:05has not given emphasis to the so-called humanistic part, and also the idea of art, which is not
08:13really understood well by other people. They don't understand art in the manner that I
08:18understand art.
08:19Yeah, there's a sentence in your chapter, Repositioning the Arts to Save a Nation. Well,
08:26you said you remember a professor of anthropology from a local uni who told you, if you can't
08:32do arts, then you do science. The arts require original thoughts and ideas. Will you explain
08:37to this, about this?
08:39Yeah, because for some reason, our industry-based education teaches not science. They teach
08:48what I call pseudoscience. It's not the real science. I read about real science, and real
08:54science have a lot of questions, even philosophical ones, about creation of the universe and all
08:59that. Our science is pseudoscience, the science of procedural aspect. So we are taught there
09:06is this problem, and therefore it requires one answer. So that is how it goes. But in
09:14art, when you look at a piece of art, whether it's a building or a painting or a song, different
09:22people will appreciate different things, because the solution or the product of the art works
09:30at a different level with the consciousness of the person. So that is a very mature and
09:39a very high-level way of understanding a problem and looking at what is called solutions or
09:46responses. Not really solution, but I always call it responses. So a particular problem
09:52may have 10 different responses, and then even the question itself may not be phrased
09:59in that manner or may be questioned whether it is relevant. So all these things are actually
10:06dealt with in what we call now as arts, and we have to be careful in using the word. In
10:13the olden days, there is no such word as science or art or anything. You go to the orang asli,
10:18there's no such thing. Everything blends in together, the way they plant the tree, the
10:23way they carve this thing, the way they do this. It's all blended together. And if you
10:30ask Leonardo da Vinci, perhaps he wouldn't even know what science is. It's part of the
10:35technology, the aesthetics, whether he's building a war machine or whether he's painting the
10:41Mona Lisa. So all those have the technology and the aesthetics and the emotions combining
10:48together. What happens in the modern world is we separate things. We separate this into
10:55this classification called the so-called industry and science, and then we separate this into
11:00something called the so-called arts, which is really not understood. I have one medical
11:06doctor friend who said, you know, Prof, we didn't call it the science of medicine. We
11:10call it the art of medicine.
11:12That's interesting.
11:15When I studied about art in school, I remember going into one of the fundamental courses
11:24for all the students. It's like an all-university requirement. Everybody's in there, engineers,
11:31whatever you are, you have to take this course in humanistic and about art. So art is partly
11:39also technology. When the technology becomes so refined, then it goes into art because
11:46then it produces something that's not only useful, but it's also something that is wondrous
11:52in that sense.
11:53I remember during my time, we had to learn this. I think there's a component in Bahasa
11:58Melayu subject. I'm not sure if it's Bahasa Melayu or Bahasa Malaysia now, but there's
12:02a component there that is called komsas, where we had to pick up a novel, read a novel,
12:11and then during exams, we would have to answer questions based on that novel.
12:16So this friend of mine that I was talking about, he said, what's the point of learning
12:20that? What's the point of reading this novel and answering questions about it? But then
12:24I think about it. These kinds of lessons, they help you to make sense of everything
12:33and problems. It's a humanistic thing. You flick through the papers, the pages, all you
12:39see are people's emotions, people's opinions being intertwined with facts. So you need
12:46to have these kinds of subjects in school to help you become a full-rounded kind of
12:53person, I think.
12:54Brock, maybe you can tell us, why does this perception, why is this perception so important
13:02on our table now about arts and humanities, negative perception?
13:07The issue or the problem here is the non-appreciation of the subject of art and humanities. For
13:14instance, what is history? Is this a humanities subject or what? We all remember numbers of
13:21figures and dates, but actually history is the human experience. But history cannot be
13:28replicated. So there was this big debate in the scholarly world in the 1800s or 1900s,
13:35I think. People were attacking history like what you said just now. What's the point of
13:40learning history? It doesn't put food on the table or something like that. So they tried
13:47to show that, look, history, if you study it long enough, you can actually understand
13:52and replicate and also predict things because nothing is useful if you cannot predict things.
13:59Like science, you can predict like this and then you can send someone to Mars or whatever.
14:03But history, they tried to put it, but actually you cannot. So what is the use of history
14:09then? Well, actually history is the thing that anchors us. But one thing you need to
14:13understand about history, it's supposed to be stories. I used to give an example. You
14:21ask your mother, was it painful for your birth or not? Either the mother answers, very, very
14:28painful or the mother will answer, it depends on whether the mother wants something from
14:34you or not. If the mother wants you to visit her regularly, then she'll say, that sort
14:42of thing. So it's a perspective of things. It's a perspective of experience responding
14:47to things and it's very important. So we have now a situation where there are people who
14:52complain about, let's say the Prime Minister not doing this, not doing that, or delaying
14:57this or delaying that, as if they know what being a Prime Minister is all about.
15:02Yeah, that's true. I agree.
15:05I do try to not appreciate my wife who's given birth to five children and all that. I don't
15:13try to look at how a woman looks at taking care of children. I see my daughter very meticulous
15:21about taking care of the child. I said, men will only take care after they're three years
15:26old. Then there's a man problem. But the first three years, it's the woman. So this kind
15:31of empathy, like you say in the book, those are the experiences that actually mould us
15:37into this thing what I call the highest spiritual value, which is honouring and respect for
15:45the other. It doesn't matter whether the other is your wife, your children, somebody of not
15:50your race or somebody. Ajahn Brahm, a Buddhist monk, said something beautiful. Who is the
15:55most important person in the world? And people couldn't, they answer all sorts of things,
16:01but actually it's the person in front of you at any time, at any place, at any situation.
16:09So if you are able to give the time and the care and the empathy to any person, well that
16:17is actually the highest form of what we call kerohanian or giver. That's my perspective.
16:23It's what you mentioned earlier before we started the podcast, Prof, about rebuilding
16:29the soft skills, right? Yes. Well, people use the word soft skill. I don't really like
16:34the word. People use human resource. When did human become resource like the bijetimah?
16:39I don't really like those words. You see, you let these people from economy decide what
16:46you say, then that's what happens. I don't use the word. Aida, it's an interesting point
16:51you raise about where did this perception come from. And it reminds me of a time when
16:56I was in school after PMR. So in my school, we were given a choice, or at least we thought
17:05we had a choice after PMR. Depending on how well you did, you would be divided into the
17:11science stream or the art stream. Or the commerce? In my school, I believe the commerce was in
17:17the art stream. And so those who did well, or at least did relatively well compared to
17:23the other students in that school, were automatically absorbed into the science stream. And then
17:28those who didn't do as well would go into the art stream. So there was always this perception
17:32that, oh, kau budak pandai. Kau tak berapa pandai. So we had that perception. So it was
17:37so ingrained in us that it took me years to, I think, extricate myself from it. Because
17:43I saw my sister who went, well, at least I think she tend to do really well in the arts
17:51and humanities subjects. And when she went to university, she did really well. So I thought
17:54it doesn't mean that people who actually preferred arts more are stupid. I don't think that's
17:59a word we should ever use to describe people. But my point is, that's probably where the
18:06perception comes from. I think that there were subjects in the arts streams that I would
18:10have wanted to take then, but I wasn't allowed to because I was already absorbed in the science
18:15stream.
18:16Well, I think that one is not, as I said, fault-finding is not my intention here. But
18:23I think it was a situational aspect where, as I said, the country is going to be industrialized.
18:30And we thought that would be economic prosperity equals to happiness. That was the idea. Economic
18:39prosperity means you can work the industry, be the engineer, be all these things. And
18:44therefore, then you will have a wonderful life. So they decided, therefore, that importance
18:51must be given to the science stream. And I don't think that is a wrong decision to take.
18:58The wrong decision was when you let things go on and on and on without checking back.
19:03It's the problem. As I said just now, everything in the past or in history has a situational
19:10context. Now, once the situation is no longer there, then you need to move on.
19:18But here you get stuck with, oh, then siapa nak masuk MRSM? That sort of thing, like this
19:24business about examination, whether you should have an exam or not. The concern here is not
19:30whether my child will be clever or not. So can she be chosen to MRSM or not? This kind
19:38of classification, as if going to MRSM is better. So that is where I think our mistake
19:45was not to look at the situation. But it becomes very difficult now with all the politicization
19:53of religion, about science, about maths, and all these things. So we're stuck in a quagmire
20:00where we don't have a strong situation to actually do anything.
20:11Is this perception of inferiority of arts and humanities prevalent in certain segments
20:19of society, Prof, do you think? 95% of the parents. The parents don't really
20:27care what you learn at the university. They only care that you get your degree and get
20:33a job and that sort of thing. One of the things that you need to learn is to learn from everyone.
20:40You said this earlier, Prof. Arts is rarely singular. And it's rarely from a single source
20:48of information. It's part of a bigger part of humanity. Can you talk a little bit about
20:56that? Well, not only art, even if you talk about
20:59science or so, there's seldom a singular, what we call, origin of things. If you look
21:06at any language, it doesn't really come from a single source. Like the Malay language itself,
21:12if you were to agree with Qasim Ahmad, who published the Hang Tuah, it's from I think
21:20nine different civilizations. Japanese, Portuguese, Arab, Indian, all these things. So that shows
21:32that nothing exists in a singular manner. Only the bigotry of our minds exists like
21:40that. But number one, in language, it doesn't exist in a singular manner. In artwork, like
21:47the Chris, you're talking about the Chris, you can trace all sorts of things from there.
21:52And even your blood comes from every single part of the human existence.
21:57That's true, yeah. And we can get to the part of character building, Prof. So why do you
22:04think arts and humanities, the subjects of arts and humanities must be given more priority
22:09now? Well, number one, if you were to use the word
22:14art to say things like reading a story or writing by another culture, and I think this
22:22exercise should be, you were reading a Malay, another Malay book, probably, another Malay
22:28context. Well, if we can read about, say, the Chinese civilization or the Indian civilization
22:33and have people understand that without some religious scholar saying, well, then we can
22:41empathize with a lot of people and a lot of issues. I do not think that we need a lot
22:48of technology or industry anymore because a lot of the things are taken up by computers
22:55and all this technology that we already have. What we do need is how to use this technology
23:02to bring us closer together. Certainly, well, there are some people who say if we are arguing
23:09with each other, then it is good for business. Well, that is for the arms industry. But for
23:13other industries, it is better to be together. You have a larger market and you have larger
23:18influence. And if you are in trouble, you can get somebody to help you. If somebody
23:24is in trouble, of course, you will extend your help. I mean, if that is not what, if
23:29you read Yuval Noah Harari. Yuval Noah Harari said that why is it that Homo sapiens was
23:35able in only a very short time, you know, become superior than all these dinosaurs and
23:40all these other animals that are bigger and much stronger. It is simply because they can
23:45share something that they cannot see. If you try to tell the monkey, hey, monkey, if you
23:52share your banana, you will go to heaven. The monkey is not going to pay attention,
23:57you know. But the humans, they will accept that.
24:00I remember reading about this, about the invention of writing or alphabets, because
24:05it means that it allowed us to pass whatever knowledge we have discovered today to our
24:09future generations. Animals cannot do that. What they know now is what they can use now.
24:15So I think that this is the similar concept you are talking about.
24:17Yes, yes, because that is, and then when I have a lecture called, for all PhD students,
24:28my first lecture is Deconstructing and Reconstructing Knowledge. The lies we live with in our society.
24:35I tell them that what you have been living in is based on lies. And lies to me are something
24:42that is not challenged. You receive historical narratives, they are all received in school
24:49and all that. If you don't question that, question doesn't mean you disagree with it.
24:54Right. You know, it simply means you question, you
24:57It's a discourse.
24:58Yes, so that's what happened in the PhD. You need to deconstruct whatever that has been
25:02the issue, and then understand it in a certain way, and then you put it together in perhaps
25:08another way, or in another what we call body of knowledge that is already accepted, and
25:12then fill in the gaps here and there. Or you just forget, you know, put it on the one side
25:18and then build your own body of knowledge. So that's the process of knowledge.
25:22And so knowledge is not truth. Knowledge is simply a conglomeration of things that
25:28you take and then reformulate it into something that you can pass on. And that's with the
25:34help of what we call writing and all that. And writing transfers knowledge. But knowledge,
25:39as I said, is not necessarily true.
25:42It's the perception of the knowledge that you have gained.
25:44It's the perception of whatever the person has. And that is where human ingenuity, human
25:51development comes, by questioning that, and then reformulating, and then some other people
25:56re-question that, and reformulating.
25:59Prof, can we perhaps discuss the impact of this perception on children's development?
26:06So when we allow this perception to go unchecked, that arts and humanities subjects are less
26:12important than STEM subjects, so what impact would it have on our children's development?
26:18Well, I always say, thank God for YouTube. You know, because if I hear my grandchildren
26:28talking from their teachers, I get very worried. But when I listen to them talking about their
26:36YouTube, I'm okay. Opposite to their mother, of course. Says, you have too much YouTube.
26:44No, no, no. But the point here is that, because you have this YouTube, and this exposure to
26:51knowledge, in our time, any written books, it's the Disneyland books, it's all these
26:56books that you find in the library, and then you just devour them, and you become a wider
27:03person, or I call, orang yang lebih berlapang dada. So that is the situation with these
27:10children that I can see.
27:12Can I share my experience a bit here?
27:14Sure.
27:15You know, funny, you should mention engineering just now, because in your previous answer
27:20to us, you mentioned the word engineering, because that's what I studied in the university,
27:24and now I'm a journalist. But when I was in university, I took part in debating. I
27:29was part of competitive debating. I represented my university around the UK and did debating.
27:35So, studying engineering, I was used to having definite answer to a question. So people mention,
27:42you know, calculate the amount of gas. There's a, you use ideal gas theory, and then you
27:47get the answer. But in debating, I was involved in a lot of discussion about economics, politics
27:54in the UK, and so I got involved with students from other backgrounds. And in those areas
28:01of studies, it is very unlikely that you're going to get a definite answer. So a lot of
28:08the time, it involves humans, and humans are not predictable. Humans are not things you
28:14can put in an Excel spreadsheet. So understanding human nature and all that, I think that that's
28:20also a training in humanity, you know, debating. It's something outside the classroom. So I
28:25think I have, I look at things different, like, on two different spectrums. On one hand,
28:31you know, there's this discipline that I got thanks to my engineering background, but then
28:36I also look at things differently because of my extracurricular involvement. So I feel
28:43like, you know, a lot of these humanities subjects, they help complement you. They give
28:50you these skills to look at things in a more, I think, in a more well-rounded manner. You
28:56don't look at things like what you said, a straight line. There's a definite answer to
29:00something. More often than not, it's actually a lot of things around us are actually a lot
29:05more nuanced than they seem, you know. So I think if students get this idea that your
29:10humanities subjects are not important, then they'll become robots. You know, they are
29:15less willing to consider different views. They are less willing to explore ideas that
29:20have not been indoctrinated in them early on, you know. So that will impede their development
29:25early on. So that's my take.
29:28Yeah. What I'm worried about as a professor who's reading a lot of PhD, you're talking
29:36about children just now. I'm worried about PhD graduate. Okay. Now there is a trend to
29:43make everything in terms of this kind of a spreadsheet idea. For instance, how do you
29:50evaluate heritage? Evaluating heritage is a very philosophical thing. But here they
29:56dump it down to some sort of spreadsheet and identify the so-called whatever values that
30:03you play to it, and then do some interviews, put up some spreadsheet or percent and things
30:07like that, and then see which number comes up bigger. That's it.
30:12So devaluing the heritage.
30:15So if I did that to my wife, what would it come out?
30:19It's a qualitative thing, not a quantitative thing.
30:23Yeah. So I don't mind the quantitative thing. Let's say you want to find out what, let's
30:28say, the ordinary citizen thinks. But here we're talking about heritage. Heritage is
30:34about how you view yourself in the future, in relation to others, in relation to the
30:39– it is, as I said, philosophy. Philosophy is about putting a lot of things together
30:44in one. Science seems to be about trying to make things smaller. Actually, science is
30:50not like that. Real science is actually putting a lot of things together also. Because I read
30:56Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, all these scientists, they put a lot of things together. So this
31:02is where we are at a disadvantage. The idea of separating things, like geography. For
31:09instance, like learning geography. I mean, the most boring subject to me was geography.
31:14Why was it boring to you, Rob?
31:16Because you have to learn about this, how many tons of this, and why. Actually, it is
31:22supposed to be a very humanistic subject, because it talks about the economy. I used
31:28to think economy is about money. No, economy is about the best use of resources in order
31:34to survive. So it's a very human thing. But our economy reduces things to facts of
31:43tonnage and production, but does not relate to the people. In certain areas, let's say
31:50tourism. Why is it successful tourism? Because of their identity, heritage, and all that.
31:56And then over here is the production of something, the plantation. It's related also to the community.
32:05So it is taken out, and then it's only discussed how much is produced, how much does it cost,
32:12how much does it so-called help the nation in this kind of a big business venture.
32:17Same thing with history. History is reduced to events and also years and specific things
32:25that you should know about it. Not about experience itself.
32:28Minus the storytelling.
32:29Yeah, minus the storytelling. So it's treated as if a definitive thing. Eckhart Tolle, one
32:36of my great spiritual teachers in terms of his book, would say, when you name a thing,
32:42you think you know, but actually you don't know.
32:45I'm sure you make it exciting in your classes, Prof.
32:48Yes, of course.
32:49With your PhD students.
32:50That's right. For my classes, I always say, this is the only place where you can ask anything
32:56and then we can actually learn together.
33:00I think that's also important about making your students feel adequate enough for them
33:07to put forth their views on the subject at hand, right? And so as to not make them feel undervalued.
33:16It's not about feeling. When you come to my stage of understanding knowledge, as I said just now,
33:22I begin to respect knowledge and not in the sense of, you know, in this clinical manner.
33:28Knowledge of whatever it is, whether it's some sort of science, some sort of industry,
33:33some sort of religion, some sort of thing, always also has the experience of the other person.
33:40So whether you come from this background, you know, you're Chinese, you're Indian,
33:44that's a different background. You come from the kampong, come from urban, that's another different.
33:49You have these friends and all this, and then you have a certain talent, that's another thing.
33:52So I've come to appreciate the learning that I get from my students.
33:59So that's why when I ask young lecturers, what is education?
34:04And they always tend to think that it's an imparting of knowledge.
34:08I said that may be so in the school, but not so in the university.
34:12Because the university is the place that you don't know.
34:17The university is the place where it does not know anything.
34:25Some people say, but isn't the university the place where you don't know?
34:29No, it is the place where you don't know anything,
34:31means you already crossed the boundary of whatever that's there.
34:34And that's where you become humble when the bigger, the more knowledge you acquire,
34:40the more you do not know.
34:42It's like a cone, you know, the cone gets wider when you go higher.
34:46So even though the angle is the same, but the area around the cone is bigger, bigger.
34:52So that is where the humility must come with the university.
34:57So this is where I appreciate knowledge coming from different individuals
35:03because that is part and parcel of the journey and the growth.
35:08It will never end.
35:09And that is also another fact that we must understand,
35:12that knowledge, true knowledge, does not end.
35:15Prof, let's talk about how can we rewrite the narrative.
35:19How can we change this perception, you know,
35:22that arts and humanities subjects are less important?
35:25What can we as a community do to fix this?
35:29I think all of this should start, as I said, at the university.
35:34See, the problem with our university is not just governed by university professors like me.
35:39It's governed by this MQA, something called Qualification Agency.
35:45Then it's governed by, like, the architecture of professional bodies
35:49or these other institutions and things like that.
35:53Now, first you need to have a leadership of university
35:56that understands the idea of knowledge being one
36:00and that all aspect of knowledge is for the vitality of human existence.
36:07You cannot, you cannot and you can never say this is more important like that.
36:12It's like you have five children, which is more important.
36:14If you can answer that, then you're a damn horrible parent.
36:18Because that's not the right answer.
36:22So you need that leadership first.
36:25It's not really easy to do a top-down way now with the social media, you know.
36:30We'll take your word for it, Prof, because neither of us are parents.
36:34When you said about the parenting thing, that's interesting.
36:37So it has to start at the university.
36:40Like I said, the curriculum of engineering, right?
36:45There's nothing about art.
36:47How do you know you might engineer the future art?
36:50But art is always looked upon as something frivolous or extra.
36:55So-called the scientific method is now king.
37:00Meaning you have to deconstruct things, put your spreadsheet and then all these things,
37:04put in the numbers and then you get your PhD.
37:07I said, what's wrong with having a question at the beginning of the PhD
37:13and coming up with 10 other questions at the end of the PhD?
37:17Nothing wrong with that.
37:19Because, as it should be, a PhD is a critical analysis.
37:22You're not supposed to have answers if you don't have them.
37:25So that is a perception that is not popular at the moment.
37:31What roles can the private sector and communities play in this aspect?
37:36I think we need a society perhaps away from our education system.
37:46I'm glad that we have a lot of private schools like international schools.
37:51Of course, not everybody can afford to do that.
37:54But if we could actually engineer in such a way of just introducing children,
38:03and not just children, I'm not worried about children,
38:06I'm actually worried about university graduates,
38:08to actually be exposed to especially reading and the reading of other things.
38:15And if it cannot be done at the university,
38:21I don't know how you can do it.
38:24Perhaps you can offer them some nice place as a hotel in a workshop or something,
38:28and then something for them for their CV.
38:30You're not going to have to do things like that.
38:33Because they're definitely not going to come just to have this kind of situation
38:40unless it works something for them.
38:42So it's either a credit for them, or a CV, or some sort of job opportunity, and all that.
38:48So we are in a very difficult situation,
38:51because the parents have already been educated in that manner.
38:54And also the worst part of it is we don't have philosopher professors.
39:01We don't?
39:02We don't.
39:03Because if philosopher professors, then you write a book saying,
39:06look, this is what happened 50 years down the road.
39:09These are the situations of society, these are the situations of economics,
39:14these are the situations of maybe what is called the job market,
39:18and things like that.
39:19We don't have people like that.
39:21We have 20 professors in their silo group,
39:24and they think they're great.
39:26They think they're great because they've been awarded so many accolades.
39:31And therefore, they keep within their silo,
39:34and this thing will go on and on and on.
39:38So that is the problem.
39:40Maybe the employers who will start talking about these things,
39:47this aspect of different kind of thinking,
39:50that one might actually spur something.
39:54I think if I can offer one last nugget of information,
39:57or at least opinion here, is that I read somewhere,
40:00and I think you probably have come across this too,
40:04jobs that would exist 20 years from now,
40:07we probably don't know what those jobs are going to be,
40:10and the skills that will be required for those jobs may not have been invented yet.
40:17So my advice to parents, or would-be parents,
40:22is that if you think, I want my children to excel in this subject or in this subject,
40:26because I want them to be an engineer, I want them to be a doctor,
40:29here's the thing though.
40:31You don't know what skills are going to be needed in 20 years from now.
40:34So it's best that you let your child be as well-rounded as they possibly can be.
40:39That's how I see it.
40:41But I don't think they see it that way.
40:44Hopefully our podcast will make them see it that way.
40:48And it's what a lot of us are facing now.
40:5120, 30 years ago, we didn't know that AI would accelerate this fast.
40:58A very interesting question that somebody asked barely 7 years ago to me.
41:04Will AI take over our jobs?
41:09My answer was immediate.
41:11I said yes.
41:13Why yes?
41:14Because I know what you learn in the university, and it's easy to replicate.
41:17But no one can replicate Professor Tajudin,
41:20because my thinking is so wide that I don't think the AI can make sense of it.
41:26So that is why these jobs, as I said, will be replicated.
41:31And then you say things like you will be out of a job.
41:35And this is the problem in our country where we are at the tail end of things.
41:39We wait for somebody else to do things, and then we just latch on to that.
41:45I read about some countries who have nothing.
41:48No agriculture, no nothing.
41:50And suddenly they create a place where people would like to come and visit,
41:56do trails, campings, and then they just live off this thing.
42:01I thought it was just a side income, but when I studied it,
42:04it's a whole load when you go to this mountain,
42:07you can't even plant anything like in Norway.
42:09But then all these houses and stuff in the middle and the camping grounds,
42:13it's making millions of money.
42:16You're not even afraid of the pandemic,
42:18because you're in the outdoor.
42:20So the appreciation of nature and the appreciation of their own culture
42:27are those that actually generate the income.
42:32Well, this has been an interesting conversation.
42:34Any parting thoughts, Farid?
42:38Well, stay tuned.
42:40I think there's a lot to take in, Prof, but it's very insightful.
42:44Yes, thank you very much for spending time with us today.
42:47Okay, thank you.
42:50We'll be back for the next third episode,
42:53and that will be an interesting topic as well.
42:55Be sure to catch the Life in the City podcast on our YouTube channel,
43:00The Star Online and thestar.com.my.metro.