EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. #OvercomingOvershoot was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.
Is there a bipartisan path forward in politics for environmental protection? Tune in for a brief history of collaboration, see how things have changed in recent decades, and hear what lays ahead.
About #OvercomingOvershoot:
#OvercomingOvershoot takes a deep look at the myriad symptoms of ecological overshoot by way of thoughtful conversations with experts and visionaries exploring not only what’s going wrong but also what solution pathways are available to overcome overshoot. Moderated by eco-rockstar, Gary Wockner, this show will serve as an essential hub to connect people from around the world on this most pressing concern.
EarthX
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Follow Us:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earthxmedia/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/earthxmedia
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthXMedia/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@earthxmedia
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EarthXMedia
How to watch:
United States:
- Spectrum
- AT&T U-verse (1267)
- DIRECTV (267)
- Philo
- FuboTV
- Plex
- Fire TV
#EarthDay #Environment #Sustainability #EcoFriendly #Conservation #EarthX
Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. #OvercomingOvershoot was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.
Is there a bipartisan path forward in politics for environmental protection? Tune in for a brief history of collaboration, see how things have changed in recent decades, and hear what lays ahead.
About #OvercomingOvershoot:
#OvercomingOvershoot takes a deep look at the myriad symptoms of ecological overshoot by way of thoughtful conversations with experts and visionaries exploring not only what’s going wrong but also what solution pathways are available to overcome overshoot. Moderated by eco-rockstar, Gary Wockner, this show will serve as an essential hub to connect people from around the world on this most pressing concern.
EarthX
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Follow Us:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earthxmedia/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/earthxmedia
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthXMedia/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@earthxmedia
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EarthXMedia
How to watch:
United States:
- Spectrum
- AT&T U-verse (1267)
- DIRECTV (267)
- Philo
- FuboTV
- Plex
- Fire TV
#EarthDay #Environment #Sustainability #EcoFriendly #Conservation #EarthX
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:30Hi, I'm Gary Walkner, host of Overcoming Overshoot here on EarthX TV.
00:44Today our show is going to dig into the topic of the extreme polarization in Washington
00:49DC, specifically around environmental issues.
00:54At a time when it seems like Democrats and Republicans are constantly at each other's
00:58throats and can't agree on anything, we're going to offer a little historical perspective
01:03from the not-so-distant past where Democrats and Republicans routinely work together to
01:08help solve environmental problems.
01:11We're going to title this show today, Can Democrats and Republicans Work Together to
01:15Protect the Environment?
01:17And we have two experts on the topic who used to work together sometimes on a daily and
01:22weekly basis in Washington DC.
01:26First is Pat Watt.
01:27Pat has had a long career in political and environmental activism, most recently as a
01:32Biden delegate here in Colorado and before that as the director of the Colorado Democratic
01:37Party.
01:38Pat has served several presidential administrations working for USAID and as a delegate to the
01:45United Nations on the issue of population and development.
01:49Pat spent 17 years at the National Audubon Society directing their population and habitat
01:55program.
01:56Pat, welcome to the show.
01:59It's nice to be here.
02:00Nice to see everyone again.
02:03And our second guest is Claudine Snyder.
02:05Claudine is a former Republican member of the US House of Representatives, formerly
02:11from Rhode Island, and was and still is one of the most outspoken, get this, Republican
02:18environmentalists in the United States.
02:22Claudine was heavily involved in addressing global warming in the 1980s and introduced
02:28one of the first bills in Congress in 1988 called the Global Warming Prevention Act.
02:35More recently as an independent consultant, Claudine has worked extensively in the private
02:40and public sectors working for companies and governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
02:45Claudine, welcome to the show.
02:48Thank you very much.
02:49Honored to be joining the two of you.
02:52What I like to do on the show at the beginning is just a quick, we call it the aha moment.
02:56Both of you have had long and illustrious careers working as political and environmental
03:01activists.
03:02And I wonder, is there one moment in your life or a few months where you said, aha,
03:06this is the problem, this is why I want to work on it?
03:09Pat, why don't you go first?
03:12You know, I grew up in East Texas and in the woods mostly, which is where I love to spend
03:19my time.
03:20And I became a nurse.
03:21And I think my real aha moment was as a Peace Corps volunteer in Northeastern Brazil.
03:28And it was working with women who, by the time they were 35, had had at least 21 pregnancies
03:35and maybe 10 living children out of that.
03:40And they were the stopgap moment on population growth and even on the environment because
03:46instinctively, they knew that they had to preserve what they lived on and the resources
03:53they had in order to feed their children.
03:57And the first time I met one of these women in a clinic, my heart just dropped because
04:03all of a sudden everything came together.
04:06And I understood that this was the most important issue that we could ever have to deal with
04:11in our lifetimes.
04:13Claudine, can you share an aha moment with us?
04:17I think I had a double aha moment, if I might.
04:20My first one came when I was 25 years old and I was told that I had cancer of the lymph
04:26system and I had a 50-50 chance of living.
04:30Well, I had grown up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and my job every day as a little girl in order
04:36to earn an allowance, I had to dust the house.
04:40And it was filthy every day.
04:43And we lived near the Coke Works.
04:46And so intuitively, I thought, this cannot be good.
04:51Well, by the time I was 25 and given that diagnosis, I was on the brink of getting married.
04:59And so it was like running into a brick wall.
05:03And I thought, I have been taught that all of us are on this earth for a purpose.
05:10I can't possibly die if I haven't had fulfilled the purposes yet.
05:16And so I kept asking, what is my purpose?
05:19What is my purpose?
05:20And long story short, all of a sudden, even though I had been interested and studied French,
05:27Spanish, and Mandarin, interested in building bridges of understanding and entering the
05:32Foreign Service, I ended up running for Congress just out of nowhere.
05:39I had no political aspirations, but the doors started to open.
05:44And I thought, is this my purpose?
05:46Surely, it will give me the opportunity to connect the dots about the pollution I was
05:52cleaning up every day and the impact on human health.
05:57And so I basically made it my life's mission to connect the dots between environmental
06:03degradation and overall environmental degradation and the impact on human health and on the
06:09planet.
06:12Well, those are wonderful moments, I've heard a lot of them, and I really appreciate those
06:17two. I want to kind of dig right into this issue because, you know, we're all watching
06:23what's going on in Washington, D.C., not just the last couple of weeks, but the last four
06:29years and even way before that.
06:31And the polarization is immense, especially around environmental issues.
06:36You guys used to work together, Pat as a Democrat and Claudine as a Republican.
06:43So Pat, tell us a little bit about what was it like in the 1980s in Congress
06:49and as being a lobbyist there and also being active in the Carter administration and later
06:55working with Republicans?
06:56What was that relationship like and how is it so different than today?
07:01So let me start by saying that I was an appointee in the Carter administration to USAID and
07:08started out as a special assistant to Sandra Levin, who you all know as a congressman, but
07:13he was one of the bureau chiefs in the Carter administration.
07:19And I ended up in the Office of Population, where most of the international assistance
07:25comes from, and basically had to work first as the assistant director and the deputy
07:33director of this office, which was huge.
07:35I mean, we were spending a lot of money, probably minuscule as far as the overall budget's
07:40concerned, but for AID, it was a lot.
07:43And so my first thing was that I had to oversee a study on population assistance that was
07:52requested by Senator Joe Biden, who was on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and work both
07:58with the Congress and the agency to make sure that they understood what we were doing and
08:03how it was being done.
08:04And so that was my real kind of close-up introduction with the workings of the Congress.
08:11I obviously had been politically active before, but I hadn't really worked with members then.
08:16In 1985, after the Reagan administration came in, they withdrew my appointment, of course.
08:24I ended up at Columbia University at the Center for Population and Family Health, running
08:28that center for three years.
08:30And then Russ Peterson, who some of you will remember, who was a Republican, the governor
08:36of Delaware, and actually the head of EPA, the first head of EPA, called and asked me
08:41to come to the National Audubon Society to run their population and habitat program.
08:46And my reaction was, like a lot of people's, this is a bird organization.
08:50What do they want to do on population?
08:53And his response is, it's all about losing habitat.
08:57And who do the birds lose habitat to?
08:59But people.
09:01How many, where they live, how they live.
09:05And so part of the big thing was to go to Congress with the environmental voice on population
09:12to meld those issues together.
09:14And basically, I looked around Congress and I thought, well, there are Democrats that
09:21are not going to support this, but there are a lot who will.
09:24Who on the Republican side can I talk to?
09:28And so there were two people, actually.
09:31One was John Porter from Illinois, and the other was Claudine Schneider from Rhode Island.
09:37And so one of my entree points, and I don't know whether Claudine will remember this or
09:41not, but as I decided to make a film for our chapter activists, we had all these chapters
09:47across the country.
09:48They wanted something they could use to talk to their members about this intersection of
09:54issues.
09:55So we made a film called What is the Limit?
09:59Looking at population growth.
10:00And I wanted to interview members of Congress.
10:03So Claudine was one of the members that I interviewed.
10:07She was excellent, of course.
10:09And John Porter was one.
10:11And then we had another congressman from Wisconsin who was a Democrat.
10:17Those days, there were really good, solid Republicans who cared very deeply about the
10:24environment.
10:24And that lasted for a while.
10:26In fact, I can remember when some of the legislation was really on the National Biological
10:35Survey later on, which Claudine will probably remember, on forests, tropical forests in
10:42particular, we could go to those members and talk to them.
10:46We tried to talk to everybody.
10:47And when you're a national Audubon society that looks kind of a little more conservative
10:52than some of the other organizations and has members in everybody's district, we could
10:57at least get that discussion going.
10:59And I felt at that point in time, we were very lucky because we had some really good
11:03members who cared deeply about what was happening to the world.
11:09Claudine, I bet if you're a Republican member of Congress right now and you wanted to talk
11:14to an environmentalist, you'd probably have to go in the basement somewhere and make sure
11:18you weren't seen together.
11:20You'd turn all the cameras off.
11:22It'd have to be a secret.
11:23But back then, you worked with environmentalists all the time.
11:26So I'm just trying to give people a little bit of feel for what that's like, because
11:30I don't think most people nowadays even can sort of have any concept of what it must be
11:36like.
11:37No, it's very sad that most of the young people who are paying attention to the political
11:43situation today are using that today's situation as a point of reference.
11:49The reason I am in enormous pain right now is because my point of reference was from
11:551980 to 90 when I served.
11:57And during that time, there were a group of us, more moderate Republicans, actually 29
12:04of us, and we band together.
12:07And our sole guiding light was the question, does this bill, whether it's introduced by
12:14a Democrat or Republican, does this bill represent the best interest of all the people?
12:22That was it.
12:23That was our measurement.
12:25And we made decisions based on that.
12:28And at that time, we had the power because there were 29 of us.
12:33And sometimes we'd vote with Democrats.
12:35Other times we'd vote with Republicans.
12:37We always voted for what we thought was right.
12:41And in the mid-90s, during the Newt Gingrich era, is when that attitude started to change.
12:50In 1979, there was a report to Jimmy Carter about the state of climate.
12:58And I was on the Science Research and Technology Committee.
13:01So starting in the early 80s, I started hearing the scientists talk about this could be a
13:08very serious problem.
13:10Our theories are this and that.
13:12And I thought, I have a responsibility as a member of Congress to do something that
13:19might be an insurance policy.
13:22Even if the scientists are wrong, I think we need to do these actions anyway.
13:27So I introduced the Global Warming Prevention Act.
13:30And of those 140 co-sponsors that I had, many of them were Republicans.
13:37So the bottom line is most of us do not consider the current Republican Party true Republicans
13:46because they don't believe in fiscal responsibility, market values, family values.
13:55So essentially, as many have referred to them, it's a Trump cult.
14:00And just for your information and of your viewers, last Friday, there were over 100
14:06of us on a call who were discussing what is the next move?
14:12Do we let this current Republican Party shrivel up and die?
14:17Are we a part of it?
14:18Do we start a separate party?
14:21And I think much will be determined after this second impeachment takes place because
14:28you are either going to see elected officials who stand for truth, for integrity, and for
14:36the rule of law, or you're going to see folks who are more interested in power and greed.
14:43And the greed is a big piece of why we have not seen more Republican support
14:50over the last 12 years for environmental issues.
14:55So could I just add one thing?
14:58Claudia, you'd be interested in this.
14:59I took some time and looked at the League of Conservation Voters scorecard.
15:06And out of all of the House, there are like four members who have voted a little bit.
15:15And the one who's voted the most, which is only like 22%, is our old friend Chris Smith.
15:23And in the Senate, there's one.
15:25And that's Susan Collins.
15:27It's abysmal, I know.
15:29And people always ask, why are Republicans against the environment?
15:36Well, there is the big lie that if we do anything on the environment,
15:41like clean up the Flint, Michigan water supply, or if we protect agricultural lands for providing
15:50greater productivity for our farmers, they consider all of that to be expensive.
15:57It isn't.
15:58As a matter of fact, Joe Biden is going to prove that it is not through his Build Back Better
16:03program.
16:05And the reality is, is that we have a Republican Party that has been co-opted by the fossil
16:13fuel industry.
16:14And as a result, it's all about money and power.
16:20So when you look at the list of, in the last election, the top 20 Republican senators who
16:28received the largest amount of money from the fossil fuel industry, all Republicans.
16:34So my motto is always follow the money, pay attention to those elected officials, not
16:41just what they're saying, but more importantly, what they're doing.
16:44And then where is their money coming from?
16:48One of the things I want to bring up too, and we're going to start talking about some
16:51of the issues, climate change, habitat, land protection, population, we might even touch
16:57on immigration if we have time.
16:59One of the fascinating things is that if you look at public opinion polls, polls of the
17:04actual American people, you'll almost see a very strong majorities and sometimes
17:10overwhelming majorities, over 60 percent support legislation or movement on all these
17:16issues to try to make them better.
17:18But Washington, D.C. is so gridlocked on the whole mess.
17:22And so climate change is a great example.
17:24There was a column in The New York Times a few months ago, and it was about the Green
17:29New Deal, which I thought was fascinating.
17:31And of course, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
17:35And there was a quote in the article from a member of Congress who was speaking on the
17:39floor of the U.S.
17:40House of Representatives.
17:42And the member said, we have the facts.
17:44The crisis is here.
17:45The time to move from rhetoric into action is also here.
17:50And but that wasn't Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
17:54It was Claudine Snyder in 1988 who said that.
17:59Now, I'm going to I'm going to push back just a little bit on the Republicans are the
18:05entire problem thing.
18:06And we'll have a nice, friendly conversation about it.
18:08But Democrats were in charge when Obama and Biden were there.
18:14And of course, we expected hope and change.
18:16And I see the picture right above your head there on your wall, Pat, about hope and change.
18:21We didn't get a lot of hope and change.
18:23And so it seems it's a bigger problem than just a partisan divide.
18:28It's almost like Congress is just stuck in this debilitating place where it can't actually
18:34move on the needs of the American people.
18:36Pat, what are your thoughts on that?
18:38I think that's really true.
18:39And it's interesting because years ago, I did a bunch of focus groups when I first went
18:44to Audubon to try to figure out connections between some of these issues that seem so
18:48disparate.
18:50And I think and I keep watching the American public.
18:55I mean, I'm not only a nurse, I'm a psychologist.
18:57So I'm looking at all of these trends.
19:00That's what really captures my imagination.
19:04What I see happening is the older folks, us, Claudine and me, at least.
19:10I don't know how old you are, Gary.
19:12No, something for yourself, Pat.
19:15But you heard them talking and they still talk almost in the fashion of grieving.
19:22And I say that because they remember a stream that they went with their grandfather to fish
19:29in, which they can't fish in anymore because it's all polluted.
19:33Or they remember a lot of open space where they went walking and finding things they
19:41wouldn't normally find.
19:43And of course, more and more, we become urbanized.
19:45And even in the rural areas, we've taken out a lot of that open space.
19:49So there's this mourning, but there's a feeling of inability that this is too big.
19:55I can't do anything about it.
19:58The young people are waking up.
20:00I've looked at a lot of those polls of young people who, regardless of political direction,
20:08they get it.
20:09So it's the big middle of the country that doesn't want change or that doesn't feel that
20:16it's possible to do change and that likes things the way they are.
20:22That's why mental health has been suffering tremendously during this COVID outbreak,
20:27because of health situations in my own household.
20:32We've been self-quarantined for almost a year now.
20:36And so people are just struggling with these issues.
20:41And then if we really want to get political, those people who are running for office have
20:47the money and they have the support of the big industrial groups.
20:52We talk about oil and gas, which is a huge issue for me right now.
20:57And so they're the ones who go into power and they stay in power.
21:01There's no limit to that power.
21:03So it seems to me that there needs to be a shift, a big shift that has to go on.
21:10I mean, plenty has been doing tremendous work with energy companies, but that shift also
21:16has to take place in that middle sector of people that there is a difference.
21:22You don't have to live like this.
21:24You don't have to worry about the climate shifting and you can do something about it.
21:32And for me, one of the things I've been struggling with is what kind of experience can we give
21:37to people who are members of Congress right now that comes not from me or you, but from
21:42local people who live in their district to say, I miss this.
21:47The National Biological Survey, for example, in the 90s almost disappeared completely.
21:53And one of the studies that was done that said that members of Congress who voted to
21:58save it, put it somewhere else, but save it, a large percentage of them had been taken
22:04birding by people from their district.
22:08So that they'd gone out to see what was out there for the first time.
22:14So I think we need to create some kind of experience for members.
22:18And then we also have to get to that middle portion of people and say, we're at a strategic
22:24point now.
22:26This is about, you know, not only your quality of life, but your children and your grandchildren.
22:30And there are things we can do.
22:32And here are the things.
22:34And then help them get those things done.
22:35Get them out of this immobility that they're sitting in right now.
22:41It's kind of like a depression.
22:43Let's get them out of that and say, we can change things.
22:47We can change.
22:48We have.
22:49We will again.
22:52Claudine, one of the links that I shared, and Pat leads us into that, was that polls
22:59of young Republicans show that they are much more concerned about environmental issues
23:06and climate change than older Republicans.
23:09And I'll just add to that, because we're all three from Colorado.
23:12And if you follow Colorado voter rolls, you see that more and more young people are
23:16registering as unaffiliated.
23:18They're not affiliated with either party.
23:20And so there's just this, you know, people are just tired of the parties and they're
23:26moving forward in their own way politically.
23:29But especially, you know, it's fascinating that young Republicans are starting to wake
23:33up to the environment very different than the people who are elected and the people
23:36who are older.
23:37So, you know, how do you think that could play out, Claudine, and kind of change the
23:42face of the Republican Party?
23:44I think that young Republicans in these, the last elections played a significant role
23:50because for them, climate is front and center.
23:55Equality and diversity is front and center.
23:59And they're looking at their own futures, wondering where are the opportunities?
24:04Well, it doesn't matter what course of study they're pursuing.
24:07It all leads back to climate, no matter how you look at it.
24:12So I think that young Republicans and young people in general are a force to be reckoned
24:19with.
24:20And, you know, the older members of Congress who have been doing the same thing repeatedly
24:27will no longer be acceptable.
24:29I think that they're going to be tasked to, you know, get out of office or change their
24:37ways because the current situation is unacceptable.
24:42One of the other polls that, you know, I look at every year is from Colorado College, and
24:47I don't know if you guys follow this poll very much, but they come out with, it's a
24:50poll of people in the West every year.
24:53And every year, and it just came out last week, that showed, and they poll about biodiversity,
24:58habitat protection, land protection, rivers, flows of water, rivers, et cetera.
25:05It always shows very strong bipartisan support.
25:09Usually more with Democrats, but generally above 50% with Republicans too, about protecting
25:16public land and the environment in the Western United States, especially and including here
25:20in Colorado.
25:22So, you know, Pat, again, you know, why do you think we have so much dissonance where
25:26the public is leading with its opinion?
25:29The public wants decision makers to do the right thing, and the polls show it constantly,
25:33but it continues to be a struggle.
25:36I think it continues to be a struggle because they haven't felt the force, really, of the
25:45voters.
25:46I mean, come on, look how much money was spent in this last election.
25:50I mean, it is just outrageous how much money was spent in this last election.
25:56And so that speaks louder to a member of Congress than it does, you know, a bunch of constituents.
26:04If we had, I don't want to get into campaign finance reform, but if we had those kinds
26:11of...
26:13I mean, to me, if we had campaign finance reform and we did away with all of these PACs
26:18and nobody was allowed except ordinary citizens to give, but a certain percentage, and better
26:25yet, when I really get into it, is the checkoff.
26:29That's what you run on.
26:30Whatever money was given through your tax checkup, that's all you have to run on.
26:35You have a fair and more even field in which voters would be the ones who are choosing.
26:43But as long as we have a situation where big money can go in and basically buy elections,
26:50I don't think that they care what voters think.
26:53Quite frankly.
26:54I just want to point something out.
26:56Last two years ago, the Democratic House passed legislation called HR1, which included policy
27:07changes for campaign finance reform, for ethics, a whole broad spectrum of things.
27:13The Republican Senate and Mitch McConnell chose not to even look at that bill, along
27:19with about 200 or more additional bills.
27:23So when you have a man or woman in power for such a long time who disregards the will of
27:31the people and only answers to those who provide money, you're going to get the kind of stagnation
27:38we have today.
27:39I will also add that there is an organization called Issue 1, which is made up of 200 of
27:46us former members of the House and Senate, both Democrats and Republicans, who have been
27:53advocating and helped to contribute to the policy proposal, HR1.
27:59And we will continue to push this because if we want a real democracy, we have to take
28:05the influence, the immeasurable influence of money out of our campaigns.
28:11It's just out of control.
28:14And what about term limits?
28:16Let's not go there now.
28:18Let's get back to climate change and the environment.
28:21And I'll give you my short answer on term limits for the House and the Senate.
28:25Heavens no.
28:27I think that if we had term limits, people would say, like they did to me, oh, Claudine,
28:34you're young, you know, why run for the Senate now?
28:37You know, you can come back later.
28:39No, that's not how human beings do things.
28:43And I think term limits will make the voting populace even more lazy, saying, well, they're
28:49only there for another two years.
28:51No, we have to be vigilant as voters and pay attention during the year.
28:56And I'd like to add, I had formed an organization of those moderate Republicans that I had mentioned
29:04from the House and the Senate two years ago, Republicans for Integrity.
29:09And we reached out to local newspapers to, in a very didactic way, let them know this.
29:18These are the facts.
29:19But this is how your senator voted.
29:22And I'd like to think that that had some impact because we can talk as much as we like today.
29:29But until we have media and people consuming media that is truthful and focused on important
29:36issues, our country is still going to suffer environmentally and in many other ways.
29:42Now, I will say to you that I had approached 60 Minutes at one point and said, I'd love
29:48to see a program showing all of the renewable energy, energy efficiency, net zero buildings
29:57that are being created all around the United States.
30:01Just focus on the U.S.
30:03And they weren't interested.
30:05People need to know that the technology is here.
30:08It's now.
30:09We need to start consuming it.
30:11And as voters, we need to push our policymakers to embrace them.
30:17You know, one thing you brought up a really important point, Claudine.
30:20Of course, so much has been said about this and written about this.
30:22But I'd like to get both of your perspectives.
30:26We're in this pickle where the media is fed by the number of likes and clicks it gets.
30:34And the more outrageous thing you do and say, the more likely you are to get clicks and
30:40likes and the more likely that media is going to get attention to it.
30:44So the kind of balkanization is occurring, of course, not just with the political parties,
30:49but also with the media.
30:50And you almost never see this kind of thing where we have a Republican and a Democrat
30:55having a professional, respectful dialogue about issues.
31:00And so it's like, you know, I don't know if you have the answer to that one.
31:03But what are your thoughts on how we get people together and have real conversations
31:09rather than just feeding off the polarization that we get from clickbait nowadays?
31:14I would like to just quickly give you a few examples that your viewers can pursue.
31:20There's some nonprofit organization called Graver Angels.
31:24They're working on this.
31:26They're awesome.
31:27In addition to that, there are a number of different organizations, including at Colorado
31:34University, that are creating programs whereby people will speak to one another.
31:42In addition to that, however, there is a book, the title of which is Bombarded by Cyrus Krohn.
31:49And he looks at social media, which he has been involved in since the beginning of social media.
31:56And he comes up with some policy recommendations.
31:59One of those, I think, is very important.
32:02And that is, for all social media, we ought to have our real names.
32:06And then maybe there would be fewer threats, fewer hateful messages being tossed out.
32:14And, you know, the local newspapers are having to really struggle right now.
32:20And I think one of the most important things that we could do is support our local newspapers.
32:26Because I believe it's the MacArthur Foundation did some polling which showed that the majority
32:33of people trust their local newspapers for political information and other information.
32:40So there is real value there.
32:44Well, one of the things, I've been very concerned about civil discourse.
32:50So one of the things that I did after I left the party was to work with Island School of
32:55Sociology. And we did an event with former Governor Bill Ritter and the late former Senator
33:03Bill Armstrong, who was a Republican.
33:06And the whole discussion was about civil discourse.
33:10How can we talk to each other about issues where we disagree?
33:17And it was a very, very good session.
33:22But unfortunately, let's just say, I left aside not to take this on as a program.
33:31There is a program out of Arizona, I believe, called the National Institute for Civil Discourse,
33:39who, by the way, is airing a premiere of The Reunited States that is being
33:46executively produced by Van Jones and Meghan Markle.
33:51And we're actually going to watch that tonight and to see what they come up with.
33:57But one of the most disheartening things that I heard from the late Katie Atkinson,
34:02who was a Republican political consultant, was that the reason, she said at that time,
34:11the reason we do negative ads is because people like them.
34:16They work.
34:17And so from my perspective, I found that very disturbing.
34:22You know, what is going on in the psyche of the country that we respond so positively
34:30to negative ads and negative reporting?
34:34But I see it on both sides.
34:36I mean, I watch MSNBC, and sometimes I want to pull my hair out because I feel like
34:41they're just kind of stretching things out over the top.
34:44And I don't watch Fox News because the few times I've watched it, I know they do it the other way.
34:50So if you are a person who is in the middle somewhere and just trying to get information,
34:57even getting it from television programs and sometimes from other news outlets,
35:02it's very difficult to find non-biased, straightforward facts.
35:08And I think it's one of the areas that we need to work very hard to correct,
35:16because we can't form a more perfect union, if you will, or heal a world that is struggling right now.
35:27Climate change has got to be the number one issue out there, along with COVID,
35:32which is connected, by the way, to climate change.
35:34Let's not forget that.
35:35And as is a lot of other diseases and more to come.
35:40If we're going to do that, we have to find a way that we do sit down,
35:46two people from opposite sides of the question, and have a discussion, fact-based discussion,
35:54about where do we go from here?
35:57This is what's going on.
35:59We have the power.
36:01We're such an interesting species.
36:05We have the power to change all of this, but we got to do it together.
36:11So what do we do?
36:13We do it.
36:15We just do it.
36:16I mean, this is not something we leave up to our elected officials only.
36:23Dealing with climate begins with every individual in their home, with their family.
36:31I think that it's absolutely essential that we start to imbue in young people
36:37the importance of responsibility and critical thinking, too,
36:42so that they know how to deal with messaging that is lacking in facts and is inappropriate.
36:52I want to talk about another topic, too, which we like to do on the show because it's a topic
36:57that a lot of people don't like to talk about,
36:58and that is population and population growth.
37:00And I know that that's been central to your careers, both of you, for quite a long time.
37:06I'm about 20 years younger than both of you.
37:08Now, I won't mention my age.
37:09That way, we won't mention your age, and no one will know.
37:12But I came of age roughly in the late 70s, early 1980s in the environmental movement.
37:17And it was the environmental movement that you two and your colleagues created.
37:22And at that time, we talked about population growth all the time.
37:27It didn't matter if I went to a Sierra Club meeting or an Audubon Society meeting
37:31or wherever I went.
37:32We talked about population growth.
37:34I mean, it was very common in the environmental movement to talk about it.
37:37And nowadays, we almost never talk about it at all.
37:41And I know, obviously, Pat, you spent a long time in your career dealing with this issue.
37:47And so if you can give us any kind of perspective about why we're not talking about it
37:52and how we somehow bring it back into the public dialogue.
37:56Because I'm with you.
37:58I mean, the birds need habitat, and the people are taking the habitat.
38:02It's like a very simple equation.
38:05How do we bring this conversation back forward?
38:08Well, I think, first of all, the birds need habitat, but so do human beings.
38:14And if, Gary, you've seen or anybody's seen the book that Ken and I co-edited some years
38:20ago, Ken Strom, my husband, called Sharing the Earth, we actually make the point that
38:28if we cannot maintain a healthy habitat for other species, then we're not going to do
38:35it for ourselves either.
38:38Unfortunately, I think the population issue, parts of it have gone on.
38:45I mean, the part that is focused on the issue of reproductive health, that's not gone away.
38:53That's still going on.
38:54I've been having a lot of conversations with Chris Tucker.
38:57I don't know whether you sent him to me or who, and I know he's kind of pursuing this.
39:04And then I think that we got sidetracked somewhat on that because of the abortion issue, which
39:10is a very, very inflammatory issue for a lot of people, and the immigration issue, which
39:17is brought in a lot of xenophobia and sort of fear of people of other colors and all
39:25the other kinds of nasty stuff that comes in with it.
39:28But the fact of the matter is population growth overall has been slowing.
39:34There are success stories out there.
39:37But it is like everything else in women's health and men's health for that matter.
39:42We still haven't solved a lot of the issues that are related to it.
39:47And we certainly haven't taken it in a comprehensive view, which is it's not just
39:54the number of people.
39:55It's where those numbers are living and how they are choosing to live.
40:01And Claudine, I know that you have been working on this issue for decades yourself on the
40:07issue of population.
40:08In fact, your Global Climate Change Prevention Act of 1988 had a population component to
40:17it.
40:18And so from your perspective, how do we bring this back into the dialogue and into the public
40:24dialogue?
40:25And is there any hope in the Republican Party?
40:28And I know it sounds like you're working with this dark backroom scene of Republicans.
40:33And I won't ask you to out them at all, but you've outed yourself.
40:37So is there any way to bring that topic back into the Republican Party or at least in a
40:43way that the public can see it more?
40:45Well, I have a very hard time identifying with what today is called the Republican Party.
40:52And I think that there are many of us in that same boat.
40:55That's why last week we had our big summit to discuss where do we go from here.
41:04But the reality is that there is such a hardened mindset.
41:13And as Pat said a moment ago, equating abortion with anything having to do with family planning.
41:24What comes to mind and really was another aha moment.
41:31Sometimes we take it for granted that everyone knows what we know.
41:35And I happen to have been in Nairobi at a women's conference walking down the street
41:41with Bella Abzug and a couple of other women.
41:44And this young Kenyan woman had a child on each hip.
41:52And she was holding the hand of another child.
41:54And she had one on her back.
41:57And I'm guessing she probably was no more than 25 years old.
42:02And she said to me, are you American?
42:05And I said, yes.
42:07And she said, could you tell me?
42:09And understand, she stops me on the street, a total stranger.
42:13She said, could you tell me how not to have children?
42:19The fact that the United States fails to provide information on family planning to me
42:27is totally irresponsible.
42:29Just as irresponsible as it is if I know something that is going to help you in your life.
42:36I have a responsibility to share that information with you.
42:41And so I think that at this moment in time, that is such an electric issue that it's one
42:50that needs to take a back seat.
42:53Because the evangelical church, even the Catholic church, has gotten way too involved in politics
43:03and distorting the separation between church and state.
43:08And I, as a woman, happen to think that it is nobody's responsibility other than my own
43:15to answer to my God, but not to answer to a group of 435 or 535 policymakers.
43:24They should not have control over what I do with my body.
43:29So I think that introducing that at this moment in time is not going to get us anywhere,
43:40but more entrenched and polarized.
43:43I think that what can bring us together, however, are steps that we can take on climate.
43:50Because this is an opportunity for the red states, the farmers, the ranchers to come
43:56together. And actually, it is part of President Biden's request of the Secretary of Agriculture
44:05that he meet with those folks and to figure out what kinds of incentives they could use
44:11to improve their farming capacity.
44:15I mean, that's something that I could answer in a flash.
44:19And I mean, regenerative agriculture was part of my bill many years ago.
44:24And today, the farmers, some of them are putting up wind turbines on their farmlands.
44:29Others have the opportunity, because of the drought or the intense sunlight,
44:34they can put up solar canopies and actually accomplish two goals of protecting their
44:40vegetables and at the same time generating electricity for their communities at a low cost.
44:47So there are many solutions out there.
44:50Every sector of society, as reflected in my legislation, have a role to play.
44:55Now, as we mentioned, money has always come up as, oh, you know, it's going to be too
45:01expensive to address climate change.
45:03When you have the head of the Federal Reserve say that one of the top risks to the United
45:10States economic stability happens to be climate, then Republicans should be paying attention.
45:18In addition to that, the chair of the Commodities Future Trade Commission has a subcommittee
45:25on climate that Bob Litterman heads, and he and his team have put together recommendations,
45:33action steps, but also make it real clear that our whole economy will soon be on the
45:40ropes if we don't quickly address climate.
45:44And, you know, hopefully most of the people watching this program, Gary, are aware of
45:51what those costs will be.
45:52We have already spent more through FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Act, in addressing
45:58the fires in California, the flooding in the Midwest, the hurricanes, the extreme cold,
46:05the extreme drought.
46:07This is only going to exacerbate over time if we don't immediately start taking steps.
46:14And if anybody feels like, oh, I'm just one person, which is what my staff said to me
46:20many years ago, why are you going to do something on climate change?
46:24Nobody cares about that.
46:27Well, that's what leaders do.
46:29Leaders lead.
46:30They say this is something we should care about, and we need to lead through example.
46:35So the good news is that the private sector has finally gotten on board.
46:40I had felt that the auto industry was the least patriotic sector of our economy, and
46:48now finally General Motors has said they are no longer going to manufacture cars with combustion
46:54engines in 2035.
46:58They will be done.
46:59Well, of course, they're saying that also because they need to compete with the European
47:03and Asian car companies that are also stopping their manufacturing of vehicles with combustion
47:10engines.
47:11But could they be more patriotic?
47:14Yes.
47:15Our post office, thanks to the president that just left, is in total disarray, and their
47:22vehicles are in need of upgrade.
47:24Should we as taxpayers pay for that?
47:27Well, yes.
47:28But wouldn't it be wonderful if the auto industry, whom we bailed out years ago, were to say,
47:35look, we will provide those vehicles that are electric vehicles.
47:42We will provide those to you.
47:45Other parts of the private sector, non-American, unfortunately, like British Petroleum that
47:52is now known as BP, Beyond Petroleum, has committed to turning their real estate of
47:597,000 gas stations into electric charging stations.
48:04So if the private sector is going to make that big move, then certainly other members
48:11of the economy can step up and take action too.
48:17It doesn't all have to be on government's shoulders or on taxpayers' shoulders.
48:23Pat, it looks to me like the Biden administration is going to take this more serious than it's
48:27ever been taken before.
48:29Now, I remember we heard a lot of this similar rhetoric back when Obama got elected.
48:33And you and I were both right there during that whole process.
48:37And there was a lot of other things going on.
48:39Of course, the economy was crashing, et cetera.
48:41But the rhetoric never really turned into reality.
48:44And I think you still have a pretty good, your thumb is on the pulse there of the Democratic
48:49party and the machine.
48:50Do you feel like this time is really going to be different?
48:53And do you see some consequential changes coming from the Biden administration to lead
48:58on the issue of climate?
49:00I think it is different.
49:03I do think there's a commitment on the part of Biden himself on climate.
49:09I want to make a quick reference back.
49:11So I was in, I was, I worked on the Global 2000 study that the Carter administration
49:19did.
49:19And a lot of people say, well, Carter didn't do anything, but it was very prescient at
49:23that point to put out a whole study looking at to the future.
49:29I'm not sure totally what happened in the Biden administration.
49:34I mean, the Obama administration, I do think they got sidetracked on many things they wanted
49:39to do because of all of the, I mean, look, he inherited an economy that was falling apart.
49:46And as far as I can see so far with Biden, the people he's pulling around him really
49:54understand this issue.
49:56And the fact that he's appointing John Kerry, who totally understands this issue, to be
50:02an envoy.
50:03And one of his first things is to get back into the climate accord, the Paris climate
50:07accord, I think are good signs.
50:10But he has also inherited some huge issues.
50:16COVID, the whole COVID-19 process, which is just horrendous, more horrendous than I think
50:25the public really truly understands.
50:29The economy, still so many people out there without jobs.
50:35So I just think I'm glad to see that somebody is being serious and going forward on this.
50:43But I'm really nervous that it's going to, there's going to be a lag time.
50:48Let's say this, because we have some really critical issues to deal with.
50:53I'm glad to see when I get a survey, they say, what's your number one issue?
50:57What's your number two?
50:58Climate change is always on the list.
51:02So we'll just have to wait and see.
51:04Claudine, you've been in Washington for the last, you were in Washington much of, for
51:09weeks before.
51:11When did you find out why you were there?
51:13Well, I just want to really emphasize, forgive me, Gary and Pat, but everyone always has
51:21a tendency to focus on the president.
51:24We have to, I mean, when I was first elected, we were told the president proposes and the
51:29Congress disposes.
51:31The president can create a vision.
51:34And we know that he can do many things through executive order.
51:39But at this moment in time, we have to remember it is the House and the Senate that really
51:45has the power to make substantial permanent change.
51:51And unfortunately, during the Obama years, and after that, you had a Republican Party,
51:58and I used to pull my hair out at that time, because Mitch McConnell was leading the party
52:04of just say no.
52:06If it was health care, Obamacare, it was repeal and replace, started long before the last
52:13president, who shall go unnamed.
52:16The reality is that we have to scrutinize our House and Senate members, and don't just
52:24take their politesse as they're paying attention to us, but ask them significant questions.
52:31So I think that, as Pat mentioned, President Biden has it at the top of his list.
52:38He has a million other things to take care of in terms of rebuilding the economy and
52:44addressing human health.
52:46But he has appointed, I mean, the fact that there is now a new National Climate Advisor
52:54in Gina McCarthy, I am expecting great things from her too.
52:59And she has a deputy, and the president has also recommended a Climate Conservation Corps.
53:09So they've got a lot of ideas that can be implemented without the House and the Senate.
53:15Now, Nancy Pelosi, to her credit, has created a select committee on climate in the House.
53:23There are numerous pieces of legislation.
53:26The key here is Democrats have a slight majority in the Senate.
53:34If they did not, we would get no action.
53:38So my urging is that we have only two years, not a four-year presidential term.
53:47We have two years to get significant steps accomplished in the House and through the
53:54Senate in order to address climate.
53:57And maybe there will be other senators who understand that they must take action.
54:03And I want to get back to how do we get them to move?
54:07Because, Pat, you mentioned something about when you were with the Audubon Society,
54:13getting the members of Congress to go on a birding trip.
54:18Well, I was leading the fight on the Saugus National Forest.
54:23And I was outraged that we were allowing clear-cutting to take place.
54:28And there was total lack of information about the erosion that was occurring as a result.
54:37And so I met up with a gentleman who had a private plane company.
54:43And I arranged to have different former members of Congress, excuse me, not former,
54:48but members of Congress who were on the relevant committees
54:52to get in those airplanes and fly over the clear-cut areas out in the Pacific Northwest.
55:00And once they saw it, they came back different people.
55:05So I want to use another example like that, Gary.
55:10And it's kind of related, but not totally, but it's the same thing.
55:15I live in unincorporated well counting in Erie, and I am surrounded by oil and gas drilling.
55:23I myself, three years ago, found that I had a benzene level in my blood
55:31that was in the 92nd percentile.
55:37And we were having our well checked, but it was all,
55:40we decided, coming from the air around us.
55:43So one of the things that I did before COVID hit is I invited members of the state legislature
55:51and members of Congress to travel with me around and let me show them what was happening,
55:58where these wells were, how close they were to schools, playgrounds, and houses.
56:02By the way, two of the members of Congress that we got to show around were Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
56:09who was here with Joe Neguse, both members of Congress.
56:14But we took members of the legislature.
56:16The result was that Senate Bill 181 that's making some major changes,
56:24not solving everything, but making major changes, got passed.
56:27We focused a lot on the Senate.
56:30So again, it is how do we use everyday citizens, and maybe we're not all everyday citizens,
56:38but how do we have citizens who have knowledge, who can take leadership?
56:44Because I actually also took the head of natural resources
56:51and the head of the Colorado Commission on Oil and Gas.
56:55I took everybody I could get out of them,
56:58little carloads of people, two or three at a time, and we went from place to place to place
57:03to show them that this is not a statistic anymore.
57:06This is where people live and how they live, and this is what's happening to them.
57:10And I think we have to find that handle, like you talked about, Claudine, with the Tongass.
57:16We have to find that handle for population growth.
57:19I'm going to stick to that because we have to deal with it,
57:22with global climate change, with a lot of the really important issues out there.
57:27Because it's one thing to have an aide hand you a piece of paper and say,
57:30well, it says such and such and such and such here, and you're supposed to vote that way.
57:34It's another thing to ride in a car or fly in an airplane
57:40with somebody who has knowledge of the area and show them this is what is happening.
57:48That is the task before us.
57:50And yeah, I mean, if it's a Republican constituent,
57:56because we do have Republican constituents who care about these issues,
57:59who can take out a member of Congress and say,
58:02just give me a couple hours, let me show you what's happening.
58:06Let me show, let me take you to that fishing hole that we used to swim in
58:11and show you what's happened and why it's happened.
58:15I think that's the only way we move these people.
58:19Because you know what it's like to be in Congress.
58:22We know what it's like to be in an organization where you're trying to get something to happen.
58:26You get further and further away from what is actually happening on the ground.
58:32We can solve this.
58:34Citizen action is absolutely essential, because if you are not making your voice heard,
58:40then they're listening to others.
58:42And if the others aren't carrying your same message, then we're stuck.
58:48Then we're in trouble.
58:52Okay, that is a great spot to kind of wrap things up.
58:56We ran out of time here on Overcoming Overshoot.
58:59And I just want to highlight again for our viewers that, you know,
59:03Pat is a prominent Democrat and Claudine is a prominent Republican.
59:08We just had a very respectful, professional conversation about environmental issues,
59:14which you almost never see in the United States of America nowadays.
59:17So it can be done and it needs to be done more, more often.
59:21Thank you both for being on the show.
59:23Well, thank you for hosting it, Gary,
59:25and for your leadership in bringing such an effort together.
59:28Appreciate it.
59:30And thank you for inviting me.
59:31And I will do anything with Claudine, anytime.
59:36Okay, I'm Gary Wachner here on EarthX TV, and you're watching Overcoming Overshoot.