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00:00And many, many, many sort of, you know, politicians and political movements have been discredited.
00:07We really are looking, as I keep saying, at an unprecedented sort of collapse of some
00:14of the most important democratic institutions today, you know, whether it's, you know, political
00:19parties or it's the fourth estate, which is simply failing to function in the way that
00:28it should. And I think Gaza really has come as a huge shock to many, many people who have
00:36witnessed the, you know, the conduct of the of the Western press in the last year.
00:45Right. And the same press, if I would say this, they're using the numbers and, you know,
00:55it's almost as if the people in Gaza have been reduced to basic numbers, you know, the
01:01death toll, the fatality count and the number of injured. That's it. So do you think that,
01:08you know, that reduces the severity of what is going on when when all you see or most
01:14of the times what you see is it's about how many people have died today, 20, 30 today,
01:2050 tomorrow. That's how it is being reported. I think, you know, I think I would like to resist
01:28the conclusion, but unfortunately. It's just too, it's just too clear. Large parts of the
01:37Western press, and that includes some of its more prestigious legacy periodicals,
01:45simply do not see the Palestinians as human. And I think that's really accounts for this
01:55gross discrepancy that you notice that, you know, a single hostage found dead
02:03or executed by Hamas gets a front page mention and the dozens of Palestinians killed
02:12every day are simply a statistic. Right. And this is, you know, this has been going on for
02:20more than a year now. So it's very clear that Palestinians, Palestinian lives really do not
02:29matter. They don't matter to, you know, some of the most, some of even some of the more liberal
02:35journalists working in New York and London and Paris. It's not just far-right agitators
02:45or demagogues who are indifferent to Palestinian lives. It's also some of the more liberal and so
02:53called centrist intellectuals and journalists. Right. Yeah. I would also want to know your,
03:04you know, opinion or thoughts about when you talk about Palestine as a color issue. I mean,
03:11I've read a few books on Palestine. I had never seen it as a color issue. And to be very honest,
03:17I thought it was, you know, it was more about expansionism and, you know, about one group
03:22against another. But you point out that George Orwell, who was one of my favorite authors,
03:28also pointed it out. And so did Gandhi, I think. So could you explain or, you know,
03:34talk about this, this particular aspect? Well, I think, you know, it was a color issue. It was
03:40identified as a color issue at a time when most of the world, most of the world was dominated
03:49militarily and politically by white European and American powers. And so the liberation of
03:59Palestine was seen essentially in terms of anti-colonialism or anti-white supremacism.
04:10And, you know, that issue became less important in the 1960s and 1950s. So many post-colonial
04:18nations emerged. White supremacy seemed to receive a setback. Even Israel started to
04:26establish relations with many African countries, good relations, many of them. But I think it's
04:31become clearer since the late 60s when Israel became a colonial power that Israel in many ways
04:40is closer to the white supremacist regimes than it is to any Asian or African nation.
04:48And so the color line that was very apparent during the anti-colonial struggles has reemerged.
04:55And today, you know, we can see this, we can see this very clearly.