The police discuss the sex worker industry in Peterborough
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00:00Welcome to Cam's Cops, Our Stories, the podcast series that delves into the force's unheard
00:06stories, covers the news that you want to hear and explores the issues that matter to you.
00:11Here's what's coming up in this episode.
00:14I predominantly deal with the red light district area of Peterborough.
00:19There's like a whole section that kind of attracts that kind of clientele.
00:24Presumably something drives these women to this lifestyle.
00:28Sadly, it's drug addiction, drink, all sorts of mental, some of it's mental health as well.
00:36It's a very unique thing that he was doing.
00:38So it's not your normal behaviour.
00:40No, no.
00:41He started very minimal, just using sex workers.
00:45You know, it's like you see these crime programmes, you see these documentaries.
00:48It all starts with something very small and insignificant, possibly.
00:51Where does it go next? Does it go to violence?
00:58Welcome, Sarah.
01:22Thank you for joining us.
01:24First of all, tell us about your role and how long you've been doing that for.
01:28So I'm part of the Peterborough City Centre Neighbourhoods team.
01:32I've only been on the team 18 months.
01:34I've predominantly done response team for the last 10 years.
01:38I did actually three years.
01:39I did rape investigations team in a different force.
01:43So neighbourhood policing to me when I joined was completely new to me, but something I'm really enjoying still at the moment.
01:50Good. Tell us about this case that you worked on and what the context was in Peterborough.
01:57So in Peterborough City Centre is generally obviously you get your shoplifters.
02:01You've got your drug dealing.
02:03You've got kind of various crimes going all over the city centre.
02:07I predominantly deal with the Red Light District area of Peterborough.
02:11So we've got a lot of sex workers, exploiters and obviously got the community.
02:16They're also not happy with the circumstances of what's going on in their area.
02:20So that is predominantly what I'm looking at is part of a op called Operation Glacier, which has been going on for many, many years.
02:27And roughly what area are we talking about? How big is the area?
02:30So the area would be Burley Road, Park Road, Lincoln Road.
02:36There's like a whole section that kind of attracts that kind of clientele.
02:41So you see sex workers, drug dealers and exploiters.
02:45So that is a predominant area in Peterborough.
02:48And does most of that come from calls from the public?
02:52Yes. So we do have a high calling service from members of the public,
02:57obviously predominantly residents that live there.
03:00You know, they don't want street sex working going on their doorstep.
03:05And there's also that obviously attracts drug dealing, violent crimes, ASB.
03:10It comes with a lot of criminality.
03:15So they don't want that on their doorstep.
03:16So we do get a high call of service of sex workers on the doorstep.
03:20And is that night and day, weekend, weekdays?
03:23Yeah, obviously predominantly evening time.
03:26You have the very small amount in the day, but it's very quite rare.
03:30But I'd probably say with the sex working and any kind of ASB that happens,
03:35I'd say it's probably about nine o'clock onwards.
03:36And it does happen throughout the night, sadly.
03:41And historically, what's been our approach to that?
03:44I've only been 18 months, so I don't know kind of what was done prior to me joining.
03:50But I'd say predominantly it would be engaging with the community,
03:55the sex workers, obviously identifying exploiters.
04:00It would be issuing CPWs and CPNs,
04:02so Community Protection Warnings and Community Protection Notices.
04:06That's how it's been dealt with, I think since,
04:09well, for quite a long time, issuing warnings.
04:11And what do those two warnings actually do?
04:13So you've got the Community Protection Warning,
04:16which basically, if you're seen loitering or acting in an antisocial manner in that area,
04:22you are not to go in that area between a certain time.
04:25So I think it's normally seven till seven, so seven at night till seven in the morning.
04:30And then that's what the Community Protection Warning is.
04:33If they're caught again within 12 months of having that warning,
04:35they then get a Community Protection Notice,
04:38which will mean the same conditions don't enter that area between a certain time.
04:43But if they're caught again, it carries an arrest power,
04:46which can be fined in prison or both.
04:49So it gives us that more of a power to kind of identify the exploiters.
04:54And what's the law around this?
04:55Are we targeting the users here, the men?
05:00Yeah. So yeah, generically at the moment,
05:03we are dealing with the curb crawling side of things.
05:07It is predominantly males that are obviously picking up the women.
05:10So at the moment, we were obviously issuing CPNs and CPWs.
05:15Now we are looking to kind of further that to identify high-risk offenders.
05:21So we are taking the approach of arresting people because we can,
05:25we have the power to do it.
05:27We'll just take a bit more of a heavier approach
05:29because it carries things like if we arrest them, we can get their DNA.
05:33They could be linked to other serious offences that have been reported to us.
05:37So it's a stretch that we're trying to kind of put out there.
05:42Yeah. And is it the same old faces or is it different?
05:45No, it's various different faces.
05:48I know people have a generic idea of kind of who use sex workers,
05:52but it's not.
05:53It's a vast of different people that are using sex workers.
06:00And what was your approach then to tackling this issue?
06:04So a lot of what I've been doing is my, a lot of my role is safeguarding.
06:09So we have three strands top places, vulnerable women, community and exploiters.
06:15So my main role is the safeguarding side of things with the women
06:19and engaging with them, getting their confidence to report crime.
06:24So obviously, and through that and speaking with partner agencies like CJL Aspire,
06:28you've got housing, you've got the council,
06:31because obviously they're getting complaints from the community,
06:33just speaking to everybody and coming together to kind of identify,
06:37kind of, you know, the bigger, the bigger issue,
06:40where, where they're getting picked up from,
06:43who's been seen in the air more than the other.
06:45So.
06:46Because presumably something drives these women to this lifestyle.
06:50What have you, what's, what is that generally?
06:53So obviously, sadly, it's drug addiction, drink,
06:58also it's all mental, it's some of it's mental health as well.
07:01So it's trying to safeguard them, but also trying to, you know,
07:07they, they are also doing wrong,
07:09but there's nothing in place at the moment to kind of give them a recommend
07:15as to what they're doing at the moment,
07:16but it's something I'll look into in the future.
07:19Yeah. And there's the sexual risk order.
07:22Is that a step on from the community protection warnings?
07:26Yes. So with most of our more kind of high-risk exploiters,
07:30which we do have, we do have like a handful that we do keep an eye on.
07:34We are looking to do sexual risk orders.
07:36I know obviously one in particular we forgot, very unusual case.
07:42He started very minimal, just using sex workers.
07:46Then it got to the point we were getting intel and reports
07:50from various agencies, the girls themselves,
07:53and us just getting general direct information that he started to
08:01get the girls in public to lick his boots.
08:04We've got one incident where he took a female into a petrol station,
08:09made her do that.
08:11He stamped on her hand to stop her getting up.
08:15He's got up, she's got up and they've left.
08:18Through that, obviously the VRM for the petrol station,
08:22us being able to identify who that woman was,
08:25we identified who was kind of doing it,
08:27because it's a very unique thing that he was doing.
08:30It's not your normal behaviour if there is normal behaviour?
08:33No.
08:34So he started with that and then we got even more information
08:37through that his behaviour was escalating, quite concerning.
08:41He started shaving their hair off and obviously doing sexual services
08:46with them and upon himself as well.
08:48So for us, it was like, OK, the next progression,
08:51what's he going to do after that?
08:52So that's why we were like, right, we need to get a sexual risk order put in.
08:55He already had a CPW in place.
08:59He breached that.
09:00So then he was issued a community protection notice
09:03and we were actively told by partner agencies that he was breaching that.
09:06But obviously we couldn't witness it, so we couldn't arrest him for it.
09:10So we just thought the next best approach would be the sexual risk order.
09:13Yeah, presumably because that requires less evidence
09:16than to bring him to book for the actual crime.
09:19Yeah.
09:20So with the sexual risk order, we needed various bits of information.
09:26The obstacles we had was the girls wouldn't provide statements
09:30because obviously he was paying well and some of them didn't mind it happening.
09:34But I don't think they foresee the consequences further on.
09:38But they were happy to tell us information.
09:42We had partner agencies that didn't want to provide statements
09:44because they did have a trusting relationship with the women
09:46and did not want to tarnish it.
09:48So that was another obstacle.
09:51But obviously the strengths of the evidence we did have was
09:55me providing the statement from what I heard from various women.
10:00I also had the statement for myself that the partner agency told me.
10:04We had the CCC footage from the petrol station
10:06and a statement that was taken off the petrol attendant two years after the fact.
10:11She remembered it like it was yesterday.
10:12I think something like that you would.
10:15And we had 22 pieces of intelligence that he was doing this
10:19because we had his car identified as well.
10:21And this has moved beyond just an issue,
10:23an anti-social behaviour issue in the area, hasn't it?
10:25When you say escalation, what do you mean?
10:27What could happen?
10:29So we obviously use this.
10:31Obviously, he went from sex working to bootlicking to shaving women's hair
10:36and also performing sexual acts on them and on himself.
10:40Where does it go next? Does it go to violence?
10:42Because if he's got scissors to cut their hair,
10:43is he going to use them as a weapon?
10:45Is he going to rape any of the women?
10:48We just thought the escalator was very concerning.
10:50So it was just something that we needed to kind of nip in the bud
10:53while now, before anything else kind of progressed.
10:56And I guess there has been examples nationwide,
10:59as I know, such as Suffolk,
11:00where somebody has moved on from just using sex workers.
11:06Yeah, it's like you see these crime programmes,
11:09you see these documentaries,
11:11it all starts with something very small and insignificant, possibly.
11:14And then it progresses and it gets ignored.
11:17And what we're doing is trying to stop it
11:19before anything kind of more serious happens.
11:22Yeah. So what's the latest on that case then?
11:25So he was issued, I think it was 9th April this year,
11:32he was issued a sexual risk order.
11:34So we applied for it to happen for two years.
11:39It is similar conditions to the CPUW,
11:41but the weight of the punishment is a lot worse.
11:47So he still can't enter that area between 7 and 7.
11:50He has to register his vehicle, if he gets a new vehicle,
11:55which he has done actually, he's declared that
11:57and he's got to do that within three days of change of vehicle.
12:00He has to provide a change of address
12:02if he changes his address within three days.
12:04And it will carry a fine in prison or both
12:08if he's caught.
12:09And with that, he's actually come back and thanked us for his help.
12:14Because I think he explained that he had an addiction to poppers
12:18and being in that area, that's why he went to buy them.
12:21And then he started engaging with the women.
12:23And through that, he's kind of sent us an email saying,
12:25thank you for your help.
12:26You know, I've kind of seeked where I've gone wrong.
12:29I've got help, my home life's better, that kind of thing.
12:32So overall, that obviously, like I said,
12:34glacial is a massive thing that's not going to change overnight.
12:37But if we've helped him and some safeguards from women,
12:40I think we've done a good job.
12:42Yeah. And as you say,
12:44this whole issue is probably not going to change overnight.
12:46But how are we dealing with that going forward?
12:49Are we using these similar sort of orders on different people?
12:54You may not solve the problem, but how are we keeping it under?
12:57It's a very difficult question to answer.
13:00But kind of looking forward,
13:02we are going to be starting arresting people
13:04who are actively seen engaging with sex workers
13:07that we believe that are buying sexual services.
13:11We are arresting them, getting their DNA.
13:14Like I said, they could be linked to other crimes.
13:18The CPWs will still be in place,
13:19and the CPNs for people loitering in the air
13:21if they've got no reason to be.
13:23You know, why are you hanging around 3 o'clock in the morning
13:26when you don't even live here?
13:27We know kind of what area it is, drugs, sex working.
13:30If they've got no reason, we'll give them a warning.
13:33And with the women, obviously,
13:35there's no kind of reprimand or consequences at the moment.
13:40But in the future, I think it will be something
13:41we'll be looking at, not just targeting exploiters,
13:44but obviously kind of safeguarding them,
13:47but kind of they have to have consequences.
13:50And looking back, what's the sort of key takeaway for you?
13:52What's the learning point?
13:55I've learned so much just being on NPT for 18 months anyway,
13:58because it's something I've never done before.
14:00Never knew what CPW was,
14:02never knew what Community Protection Notice was,
14:04didn't know what Sexual Risk Order was.
14:05It's all stuff that, you know, I've learned so much from.
14:09And it's also liaising with different agencies,
14:11different departments.
14:13I've learned so much from it,
14:15not just taking a call and it being repetitive every day.
14:18It's something I've really enjoyed.
14:19And obviously, it's a long-term project for me to work on,
14:22which I've enjoyed.
14:23And I've had, obviously, my team to help me,
14:25legal departments helped me,
14:26and obviously other colleagues as well.
14:28It's been a massive learning curve.
14:30And have you had much feedback from local people?
14:33Do we have much contact with them around the work we do?
14:37So, obviously, we do still get the calls
14:38that the women are still hanging around and loitering in the area,
14:41but we are having those community neighbourhood meetings.
14:46We are actively patrolling that area,
14:49especially when we're on late shifts.
14:50We're always out on patrol.
14:52So, not much has changed in the call of service,
14:56but we are engaging with the community,
14:58telling them, look, this is the work we've done,
15:00and they're very happy with the work that we've done,
15:02targeting exploiters.
15:04I think the next thing will be to see what we can do
15:06about the women as well,
15:07but safeguarding them at the same time.
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