"As a woman, I have no country." – Virginia Woolf
Rashmi Varma, a professor of English and Comparative Literary Studies at University of Warwick, speaks to Outlook about the impact of war on women.
Women's understanding of war is different, as they are not only physical victims but also have their roles as caregivers affected by the bombing of schools and hospitals.
Additionally, their bodies are weaponised, with both sides engaging in sexual exploitation.
Despite these challenges, women also take on complex and dangerous roles as peacemakers, often overlooked by historians.
Watch the full conversation to know more.
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#NeverEndingWars #ContinuousWars #EndlessWars #PerpetualWars #Women #WomenInWar #GenderImpact #GenderViolence #Outlook #WarAndPeace #Palestine #Ukraine #Syria #Sudan #Nigeria #Congo #Cameroon #Gaza #Yemen #Burma #SriLanka
Rashmi Varma, a professor of English and Comparative Literary Studies at University of Warwick, speaks to Outlook about the impact of war on women.
Women's understanding of war is different, as they are not only physical victims but also have their roles as caregivers affected by the bombing of schools and hospitals.
Additionally, their bodies are weaponised, with both sides engaging in sexual exploitation.
Despite these challenges, women also take on complex and dangerous roles as peacemakers, often overlooked by historians.
Watch the full conversation to know more.
Follow us:
Website: https://www.outlookindia.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Outlookindia
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/outlookindia/
X: https://twitter.com/Outlookindia
Whatsapp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VaNrF3v0AgWLA6OnJH0R
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@OutlookMagazine
Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/outlookindia
#NeverEndingWars #ContinuousWars #EndlessWars #PerpetualWars #Women #WomenInWar #GenderImpact #GenderViolence #Outlook #WarAndPeace #Palestine #Ukraine #Syria #Sudan #Nigeria #Congo #Cameroon #Gaza #Yemen #Burma #SriLanka
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hi, I'm Rani Jana and right now I'm with Rashmi Verma who teaches at Warwick University.
00:07She teaches English and comparative literature.
00:10She was also in the founding editorial collective of the journal Feminist Dissent.
00:16And today we are going to speak about how women are impacted in wars.
00:23She has written for our anniversary issue, War and Peace.
00:28She has written in peace on how women are endangered, especially during war and conflict
00:35regions.
00:36So, Rashmi, thank you so much for speaking to Outlook.
00:42I will start by asking that in your piece you said, feminists have shown we are living
00:49in a society completely saturated by war.
00:52Like you've specifically said feminists, can you elaborate on that a little bit because
00:57I think it forms the crux of your piece.
01:01Firstly, thank you to you for inviting me to have this, I think, really important and
01:08necessary conversation.
01:12So by feminists, I meant that I'm drawing on the work of feminist scholars, some of
01:20whom I mentioned in my piece, such as Cynthia Enloe, for instance, who is a political scientist
01:30and who was really among the first sort of feminist theorists, political scientists,
01:37to talk about how war is not just something which is fought on battlefronts, you know,
01:44and involves bloodshed.
01:46I mean, what are, you know, the typical image of war is, you know, of soldiers and tanks
01:52and drones and, you know, air fire, you know, fire from the air and on the oceans.
02:00But that war actually informs everyday life.
02:05So when I was saying feminists, I did not mean that, you know, you have to be a feminist
02:11to feel the impact of war, because, you know, in her work, she has talked about the impact
02:17on women and women can be feminists or not feminists or feminists, but don't identify
02:24themselves or use the label for that.
02:28But I think I was using the term because I was drawing on the work of people like her
02:33and Catherine Lutz and others who have written about wars from a feminist lens.
02:43You know, I think that that is the point I'm trying to make in the piece, that when we
02:47look at war through a feminist lens, you know, then we can come to a different understanding
02:55of war, you know, how it comes about and its impact and the politics, you know, that
03:04inform wars and that set off wars.
03:08So that's the sense in which I was using feminists there.
03:12But of course, it impacts women in very particular ways.
03:17Wars impact women.
03:18Can I ask you to elaborate a little bit about how, like, war affects women, how there is
03:24the understanding of war to all of us?
03:28How is that different for, you know, women who live through war?
03:32OK, now that's absolutely crucial, that question, because, of course, in the literature on wars,
03:42many have written about how, although women are not on battlefronts, although through
03:50history women have fought in different national contexts to go to war, you know, whether in
03:58the United States or women wanting positions in the armed forces in India as well, although
04:06they are not typically put in combat positions.
04:11So on the one hand, you know, women from the perspective of equality have fought for
04:16the right to go to war.
04:19And on the other hand, even though they're not in combat typically and they're not on
04:24the front lines of wars, what wars do is also they bring about a devastation of the social
04:35infrastructure of societies.
04:38So again, that they're not just on battlefronts, right?
04:41So the bombing of hospitals, of schools, of homes, these, you know, have quite a severe
04:51impact on women and their day to day lives.
04:56The fact that, you know, in most sort of societies, women are responsible for the care of children,
05:02right?
05:03For the care of the elderly, for the care of the disabled.
05:07And with the devastation of, you know, of hospitals and of schools and things, you know,
05:16that women can go to for help, you know, it really impacts women and how they can look
05:23after children, for instance.
05:26But also the casualties of war, which, of course, you know, tends to be in terms of
05:33the traditional notion of war, mostly men.
05:37But again, in so many societies, men who are the breadwinners, you know, are the ones who
05:43die in battle, who die in wars.
05:47And that burden also comes to women then, which is to continue life, you know, in the
05:55aftermath of wars and, of course, during wars, how to provide care, for instance.
06:02In recent years, there's a lot of emphasis or discussion on the duty of care that women
06:09have, you know, and how those networks of support, how those infrastructures of support
06:17are actually destroyed by war, apart from the fact that, you know, women lose their
06:23husbands or fathers and sons, you know, in wars.
06:27And that has an impact on them as well.
06:30So both direct and indirect, you know, impact can be seen on women.
06:38So like in Cameroon, for instance, a lot of women, like they play a very complex role
06:47in wars.
06:48So they are not only sexually exploited, raped, weaponized in wars, but they're also some
06:59of them have also joined, you know, these armed groups and they're fighting.
07:04And then on the other hand, they're also becoming like peacemakers, you know, a lot of organizations,
07:10women-led organizations have come about and, you know, they are the ones who are trying
07:15to get the, like, you know, make the change happen.
07:18So what do you have to say about the complexities of, you know, women's role?
07:24Absolutely.
07:25And I'm glad you brought up the question of sexual violence and rape.
07:29I should have said that when you asked about the impact of wars on women, because sexual
07:35violence and rape has been, in fact, a really important instrument that nations, nation
07:44states have used and communities have used against the communities and nations that they
07:49are attacking.
07:50Right.
07:51So whether we look at partition violence in the case of South Asia, though it wasn't,
07:56you know, a typical war, of course, it was followed by war, or whether we look at what
08:02happened in the Bosnian war or the example of wars in Africa, rape and sexual violence
08:11have always been, you know, used as instruments of war.
08:15Right.
08:16So it's a really important aspect if we are going to look at wars through the lens of,
08:22you know, gender and through a feminist lens.
08:25But also the fact of women's participation in different militias.
08:30And again, you know, there have been interesting discussions of women joining ISIS, for instance,
08:36you know, which is, you know, a global terror group.
08:41So and that, of course, interestingly, often gets presented as, you know, under the rubric
08:48of women's rights that, you know, women also have the right to go to war.
08:53But it's often in very exploitative situations.
08:57Right.
08:59In the case of ISIS, you know, reports came out of the ways in which women were being
09:05sexually exploited, tortured, you know, and did not have equal positions at all.
09:15On the other hand, women revolutionaries, Kurdish revolutionaries in Rojava, for instance,
09:22you know, have played an important role in setting up, you know, a kind of autonomous
09:28democratic, you know, governance in that region.
09:33So, yeah, there are all of these layers.
09:35And of course, women as peacemakers, that history goes back as far back as there have
09:41been modern wars.
09:44So from the time of the World Wars, women set up international associations, international
09:50organizations, you know, to combat war and to press for peace and to work on peace.
09:59And I think that that work is still ongoing.
10:03Those organizations still exist.
10:08And so there's a long tradition of that, you know, I'm thinking all the way back to someone
10:14like a writer like Virginia Woolf, who said, as a woman, I have no country, right.
10:21So there's a long tradition of women opposing war and fighting for peace, working for peace.
10:30Although I think there's a problematic flip side to that, which is that, you know, women
10:34often get associated with peace, that women are inherently peaceful, you know, and don't
10:44want to go to war.
10:46And I'm not sure that that's a very persuasive argument, because on the one hand, women are
10:55deeply impacted by war.
10:57But they're also political actors who are caught up in the politics of war, both as,
11:05you know, women who may support wars, but also as peacemakers.
11:11So yeah, a very complex situation, which needs a lot of very careful unravelling.
11:19What do you say that it also comes from the idea that women are like, considered weak,
11:27in the sense that, oh, that they can't do these peacemaking things, or, you know, what
11:32do you have to say about that notion?
11:34I don't think that because they're seen as weak, that they haven't played a bigger role
11:41in peace initiatives.
11:43I think often those initiatives are not recognised enough.
11:49So for instance, I quote my friend, Geeta Sehgal, you know, in the piece that I wrote
11:57for the anniversary issue.
12:00I mean, she has a wonderful piece that she wrote for Open Democracy, where she pointed
12:05out that the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the role that women played in forging that
12:14declaration, you know, is often is not recognised, you know, women, especially from the Global
12:20South, you know, played a huge role.
12:23And if you're following the ongoing discussions taking place at the United Nations, for instance,
12:31you know, working on a new treaty against war crimes.
12:37Women are playing a huge role in that, particularly in terms of getting gender apartheid recognised
12:46as an important category in the war, war, war crimes, you know, against humanity.
12:55So at all levels, whether it's the United Nations, or at the national level, down to
13:02the local level, I think women have played a really key role.
13:07And I think historians need to do a much better job of telling the stories that women have
13:14played, you know, because often the stories are told of, you know, of leaders and of,
13:19you know, sort of the big players of history.
13:23But if we actually dig deeper, you know, we find that women actually, you know, have been
13:29at the forefront of peace negotiations, peace settlements, both at the international and
13:37at local levels.
13:38So I'll come back to what you've said in your piece about women's rights, that it is currently
13:45caught in crossfires of wars.
13:48I think you said it in reference to Gaza, what is happening in Palestine.
13:52So could you just elaborate a little bit more about it?
13:56I think what wars tend to do is that they force us to take sides, right?
14:03You know, whether we want to be on the side of the victims, those who are being bombed.
14:10And in Gaza, of course, you know, it is an ongoing genocide going on.
14:16And then those, you know, who are, you know, the Zionists were supporting Israel and so
14:23on. So there's a, you know, and some of this is really, of course, necessary, you know,
14:27as humans, how can we not oppose genocide, right?
14:33But I think often lost in that or, you know, is the is a kind of is a kind of feminist
14:40analysis which is needed simultaneously, you know, just as we oppose genocide and we stand
14:49up for the rights of Palestinians, the human rights of Palestinians.
14:55At the same time, I think the feminist lens makes us realize that that, you know, the
15:02politics on the ground of Hamas, for instance, you know, and this has been a really
15:07difficult thing to articulate, to say, because, you know, war creates these situations
15:13where, you know, tens of thousands of people are being killed, you know, every month,
15:18right. So how do we talk about, you know, women's rights or what is going to be the
15:24situation of women in a free Palestine?
15:27The argument often is that we are so far from it.
15:29Right. Right now, Palestinians are just fighting for the survival to live and to breathe
15:37and to eat. So how can you talk about that?
15:40But I think that the two are should not be, you know, seen as separate.
15:47The fact that the people who are being killed in the genocide are women and that, you
15:56know, any opposition to the genocide, any opposition to Israel must be really clear
16:02sighted about who are the forces who are claiming to speak for Palestinians, you know,
16:09and what is happening to the voices of secular Palestinian women or, you know,
16:16Palestinian women fighting for human rights, you know, that that often gets lost.
16:23And that is a really, really difficult thing to do.
16:26And I do have full sympathy for people who say that, you know, you know, how can we talk
16:34about things like women's rights when, you know, such a bloody war is going on, when a
16:40genocide is going on?
16:41But I think that that conundrum has always been posed to women, you know, even in
16:46nationalist movements, women were told, let's first get independence and then we can
16:52talk about, you know, women's rights.
16:54Right. Or let's win this war and then we can talk about women's rights.
16:59So that's always been placed on a kind of, you know, it's always been postponed.
17:08But I think it's really important to be very aware of who is standing up for the rights
17:15of Palestinians, what those forces are, what the complexity of the situation is, rather
17:23than just postponing it or seeing it as separate to the struggle for Palestinian human
17:28rights. I think women's rights are absolutely integral to the struggle for human rights
17:34and the two cannot be separated.
17:36Do you think it would be right to say that there are two kinds of wars going on, like
17:41first on the battlefield and the other is on the bodies of women?
17:46Because not only sexual violence and rape that is being weaponised against them, they
17:54are also not provided basic human hygiene, right?
17:59Like there's not enough sanitary pads.
18:02Like a lot of women are giving birth without any anaesthesia.
18:08Like so, yeah.
18:10Could you just elaborate?
18:12Absolutely. And again, I think that these are connected and not just, you know, in the
18:18war zones, but also in the United States, for instance, you know, the attack on women's
18:25reproductive rights, you know, has been, you know, key to Trump's, you know, coming
18:33to power again.
18:34And of course, those ideologies also fuel, you know, the wars that are ongoing in the
18:42world. And yes, absolutely.
18:44From the practical aspects of everyday life, you know, of, you know, women's sort of
18:53bodily needs and requirements to ideologies that control women and their bodies.
19:01Right. I think just earlier this morning, your magazine has reported that the new
19:08injunction by the Taliban is to prevent new housing from having windows in homes, right?
19:16Windows through which women can look out into the world, into the world of the courtyard
19:21or, you know, on streets, et cetera.
19:25So these are wars literally on women's bodies, but they're very much connected to what we
19:33think of as political wars.
19:36Right. The Taliban itself comes out of a long history of wars in the region, and it is
19:43really promulgating, you know, as direct a war on women's bodies, as you can think of.
19:51Sometimes it reads like it could be something from Salman Rushdie's novel, right?
19:57The idea that, you know, women can't even have windows in their homes.
20:02But that is that is absolutely the reality of these wars on women's bodies.
20:09Your collective, which is the Feminist Dissent, and you had also mentioned that you were
20:13teaching feminists fight fundamentalists.
20:18Yes, I organized a teaching.
20:20Yeah.
20:21So both of this kind of reminded me of this book I had read, which was reading Lolita
20:27in Tehran.
20:28And could you talk a little bit about how, you know, in academia, reading certain books
20:34or reading certain literature among a certain socio-political scenario is also a form of
20:41resistance.
20:42So can you just talk to me a little bit about both of your initiatives?
20:46Because they sound really interesting.
20:48You know, academia is on the one hand, it seems very distant from what is happening
20:53in the real world.
20:54You know, this kind of distant ivory tower existence that, you know, some academics seem
21:02to have.
21:03On the other hand, you know, in reality, it is very much, you know, embedded in, you know,
21:09social views and social attitudes and so on.
21:14And I think that in the US where I was teaching, you know, when the 9-11 attacks happened,
21:22I was a young assistant professor.
21:24Then I just arrived in this small US southern town.
21:29And there the war was like breaking out around me.
21:33And there was both a lot of racism against people who didn't look like white Americans,
21:40people like me, as well as, of course, a real gung-ho, you know, patriotic, America
21:48is great, this is an attack on America, you know, kind of discourse.
21:52They were both sort of very much in the air.
21:57I think at that time, academia provided the space where things which could not be necessarily
22:08read or said, you know, in the public sphere, could be done in the classroom, you know,
22:16and could be discussed in these teachings that we organized, you know, against the kind
22:23of war on war on terror.
22:26We have in, you know, in which case, you know, in the case of the one that I mentioned in
22:31the piece called Feminists Fight Fundamentalists, we brought together writers and academics
22:37to reflect on, you know, how this war was affecting, you know, women and women's rights.
22:46So in that sense, yes, it does provide this kind of privileged space, you know, for thinking
22:53about these issues, and for just for just taking time out to read.
22:59And of course, reading itself in some situations can become really incendiary, you know, but
23:10to keep up that work in most recently, a couple of years ago, I taught Kamila Shamsi's novel
23:16Home Fire, which is really interesting, because it is about British Asian family, where the
23:24son, you know, is attracted to, you know, a militant jihadi movement, you know, and
23:31what happens to that family, you know, and it's set in the context of the war on terror,
23:39but the politics of British multiculturalism and of, you know, fundamentalism in Britain.
23:47And that became an interesting way to teach my students to think about these issues with
23:56the kind of nuance, which you can't if you're just sort of giving a political speech or,
24:03you know, because literature allows you to enter the mind space of the characters. So why this,
24:09you know, family is torn apart, you know, where the son takes up, you know, terrorism,
24:16you know, and he goes off to Pakistan. And then what happens to the sisters, you know,
24:23one of whom goes to the US, one who stays here, it really helps you get into the kind of emotional
24:32space of the people who are caught up in these wars. And I think that that's something I value,
24:38you know, that the space of the classroom and literature, what literature can do
24:44to help us understand these very complex issues.
24:51Thank you so much, Rashmi. I think those were all my questions. Thank you so much for speaking to
24:56me and Outlook. It was great having you. Thank you so much again.
25:03Thank you so much, Rani. And I enjoyed having the chance to elaborate on some of the things
25:09that I wrote about.