Stefan Molyneux
  • last year
In this episode, Stefan engages a caller reflecting on his challenging personal relationships shaped by a turbulent childhood marked by emotional neglect. The caller discusses the impact of his upbringing on his two failed marriages, characterized by loneliness and unresolved trauma. He expresses a desire for healthier connections and is committed to open dialogue in his current relationship. Stefan guides the conversation toward self-awareness and breaking dysfunctional cycles, offering support for navigating difficult discussions about emotions and healing.

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Transcript
00:00:00I'm a heterosexual male in my late 40s, single, childless, and unfortunately married twice and divorced.
00:00:07I'd like to connect with you either on a public call-in or a one-to-one to get your perspective
00:00:13on your insights of how I can continue to let go of the pain and anger I have
00:00:17that have dictated so much of my life and move forward with hope, strength, and authenticity.
00:00:25For much of my life, I've struggled with inner conflict, being deeply introspective yet incredibly
00:00:30hard on myself. I've carried the weight of decisions made out of fear, loneliness, and a
00:00:34need of validation. This pattern started early, rooted in an upbringing
00:00:41marked by a lack of guidance, feelings of abandonment, and the scars of my father's
00:00:47alcoholism and abandonment of my family. Through therapy, journaling, and listening to
00:00:55your shows over the recent years, I've begun to see how these experiences shaped me. As a child,
00:01:02I walled myself off from others, retreating into my own imagination and crafting a number of false
00:01:08selves to protect myself from this pain. These personas helped me navigate a world where I often
00:01:14felt unseen and unheard, but they also left me with a sense of chronic self-doubt and an
00:01:24enduring sense of being a fish out of water. In my teens, a diagnosis of a chronic illness added
00:01:31another layer of complexity. It explained many of the strange symptoms that I had experienced,
00:01:36but also forced me to overhaul my life plans at an age where I had already felt left behind.
00:01:43I've always felt like I was trying to catch up, chasing a moving target that doesn't exist.
00:01:49Yet despite these challenges, I've achieved a good deal of external success. I built careers
00:01:56in medicine, pharmaceuticals, and earned advanced degrees and developed a reputation for excellence.
00:02:04Ironically, I've treated patients with the same condition that I've been diagnosed with
00:02:09and living with for decades. But no achievement has ever truly silenced the inner critic that
00:02:16tells me I'm not enough. As I reflect on how these influence of key life figures influenced my life,
00:02:25one of which is my uncle, who shaped a lot of these choices and self-doubts,
00:02:29my uncle was professionally successful, who prioritized his career and wealth over family.
00:02:36While I admired his accomplishments, I also saw the emptiness in his personal life,
00:02:42or at least the way that I saw it. He often advised me to never settle, and I emphasize
00:02:47that message as a way to lead me up and pass up meaningful opportunities, both in relationships
00:02:55and in my personal life. In my 20s, I passed up relationships, choosing, ambition, and the lure
00:03:01of money over qualities of virtual connection and stability that I now truly value. Seeing people who
00:03:10went on to build fulfilling family lives, I have often wondered how a different path in my past
00:03:17may have been, and how if I made different choices had changed my life now if I had
00:03:24different influences. This pattern of prioritizing external markers of success
00:03:33over internal fulfillment followed me for years. It's left me grappling with the realization that
00:03:42while I've achieved external success that I wanted, I passed up the things that truly matter to me now,
00:03:49authentic connection, stability, and a sense of belonging. My personal life has been shaped by
00:03:55these same struggles. I've unconsciously sought partners who mirrored unresolved issues with my
00:04:00father, relationships that were destined to fail because they were built on a foundation of fear
00:04:05and self-sabotage. I'm now in a relationship that's very different. My partner is kind,
00:04:10selfless, and deeply connected with her family. She knows the value of prioritizing over oneself,
00:04:16and I admire her for her virtues of honesty, curiosity, and clear communication.
00:04:21She believes I'm too hard on myself, and I view myself differently than others see me.
00:04:26Her perspective resonates. For much of my life, I've let pain and anger motivate
00:04:34in convincing myself they were the keys to my survival. I'm starting to see that they've also
00:04:39kept me walled off from others, and more importantly, from my authentic self. I've
00:04:44learned that my anger doesn't protect me, it isolates me. Steph, I want to break the cycle.
00:04:51I want to be present, open, and authentic in my current relationships and in my life,
00:04:56but I also fear repeating old mistakes or falling back into patterns of self-sabotage.
00:05:01I'd like your insights on my current path and how I can continue to break free from
00:05:08these patterns of relationships, having put limits on some and ending others entirely.
00:05:14Am I generally learning to let go of this anger, this fear that has defined much of my past, or
00:05:20unknowingly allowing them to creep back in? Finally, I wonder if this story could serve
00:05:25as a cautionary tale for other younger men who, like me at the time, might let pain, anger,
00:05:31or the allure of immediate gratification dictate their choices in the immediate.
00:05:36Thank you for your time, wisdom, and guidance.
00:05:40Well, I appreciate that. It's a very frank and open and honest and raw message. I really,
00:05:46really appreciate that. So, what happened with your marriages?
00:05:54So, the first, I was in my late 30s. I had returned back to school to pursue a career in medicine.
00:06:09We were two lonely people trying to make one not lonely person, I think. The relationship
00:06:20was fine initially. The marriage lasted about five and a half years.
00:06:26And in retrospect, I probably wasn't as present as I could have been.
00:06:34Okay. So, let me just ask you for a tiny favor. So, listen, you're obviously a very
00:06:38intelligent guy and a very skilled in language and analogy and metaphor. You know, two lonely
00:06:44people trying to make one not lonely people. Sure.
00:06:46Now, that narrative, though, all of your narratives have not worked. Because if your
00:06:50narratives had worked, then you wouldn't be calling me, right? Exactly.
00:06:55So, when I say what happened with your marriage, if you tell me your narrative,
00:06:58you're telling me all the things you got wrong about it?
00:07:01Right. And so, if you could just tell me what happened
00:07:05in terms of, and I was unclear, so I apologize for that. But if you can just tell me sort of
00:07:10what happened in the mechanics or the breakup, was there an affair? Was there any sort of abuse?
00:07:19Did she quit to go pick grapes in Queensland, Australia? Or if you can tell me sort of the
00:07:24mechanics of what happened, because the narrative won't particularly help, if that makes sense.
00:07:30Understood. And apologies. So...
00:07:32I'm looking for symptoms, not diagnosis. There's your medical term.
00:07:36Got it, got it, got it. She came from a broken family. We both had problems with communicating
00:07:43feelings and what we really wanted. If we had done that early on in the beginning,
00:07:48we probably would not have pursued the relationship. She was a restless person,
00:07:57as I was probably a restless person, prioritizing other things over our relationship.
00:08:04I ended up coming home one day, she said, I'm not sure I want to be married. I said,
00:08:09okay, are you sure about that? She said, yes, we pursued therapy. We went to a therapist for a
00:08:14while. The therapist asked her flat out, do you want to remain married? And she said, I don't
00:08:20think so. And I moved out pretty much the next week or so after, again, trying with a therapist
00:08:28for a while. And she ended up moving in with someone shortly afterwards. So I think she was
00:08:35looking for more attention than I was able to probably give her. And that's how the relationship
00:08:40ended. How old was she? Is that a little more clear? Not much, but better. How old was she?
00:08:47Was she younger, older, same? No, we were both the same age. And we got together in our early 30s.
00:08:55Ah, okay. And was there any talk of kids? Yeah. Yeah, there was. And we had talked about
00:09:03starting a family. And instead of starting a family, she chose to go back to school.
00:09:10There was always something else that I think from both of our perspectives
00:09:15needed to happen before we had kids. I didn't feel that having a family with...
00:09:24She decided to go back to school when we were going to potentially start to try having kids
00:09:29about a year after we had been married. And that put a damper on that. And like in my letter,
00:09:37I felt like we were trying to play catch up. And that just, I think, created resentment on both of
00:09:42our parts. So you had talked about having kids. Do you know what the decision point was that she
00:09:49wanted to go back to school? She was in the legal field and kind of like administration. And she
00:09:59chose to pursue a higher degree. She worked for the government. And yeah, so that was like two
00:10:08years and two years and change. And she was in school and I was working. And I mean, we didn't
00:10:18have time to connect. And there was other things. Just two workaholics, right? I don't mean to say
00:10:24necessarily workaholic, but two people who worked a lot. Yeah, I would say that's definitely probably
00:10:30the case. I'm not focusing on the relationship. And if you had focused on the relationship,
00:10:36do you think it would have worked out? In retrospect, probably not. She came from a
00:10:43family that was even more dysfunctional than mine, if I could be really frank.
00:10:53And that was definitely a thing. I could remember two occasions, one of which I mean,
00:11:03her mother was extremely critical of her and myself and not used to, I don't know, someone,
00:11:12I don't want to say talking back, but giving their honest opinion about what her thoughts were. And
00:11:17I could just remember doing that at one point and sticking up for my wife. And
00:11:24her mom went like apoplectic about it. And her mother had been married a number of times and
00:11:31was with her second marriage. And at the end of our relationship, she developed a very
00:11:38quickly progressive dementia syndrome. And that kind of predominated a lot of things.
00:11:45Yeah. You can't have a successful marriage with toxic parents in the environment.
00:11:49No. I mean, a marriage can last, I suppose, but it sure as heck can't be successful.
00:11:55No. And that's one of the things that hopefully my letter was able to bring out that I
00:12:01chose both of my ex-spouses, people that had incredibly dysfunctional upbringings.
00:12:09Sure, sure. I mean, yes, I get that. I get that.
00:12:13Okay. And that was the first marriage. What about the second?
00:12:17Second marriage, very different. We had much better communication style,
00:12:24but we were a great couple for the first five or so years of the relationship. We
00:12:30moved in a couple of years after. I mean, it was great. I mean, people would come up to us in
00:12:36the supermarket saying, oh, you guys look... people we didn't even know. Oh, you guys look
00:12:43like a great couple. The way your wife looks at you or your partner looks at you. And
00:12:49I mean, it was wonderful. We had good communication. And then, again, a lot of
00:12:57family stuff started coming up. Also came from an extremely broken family.
00:13:08Her mother had been married a couple of times. Her father had been married a couple of times.
00:13:14She has five half-siblings, no full siblings. And just really bad...
00:13:22The best way I could put it is I overlooked a lot of these warning signs because she was so
00:13:33charismatic and made me feel good at the time. But I can remember very early on,
00:13:41like her family joking about the level of dysfunction. Like for example, I'll just give
00:13:46you one example. She was kidnapped by her grandmother, taken out of school. No one knew
00:13:52where she was for like two and a half days. And that 25, 30 years later, that story is told by
00:13:59her mother. And it's like a funny story in front of her mother and her half-sister and her half
00:14:07brother. And it's like a funny story that, oh, crazy grandma and crazy dad who was at my first
00:14:15marriage with an ankle bracelet on because he was on probation for selling narcotics.
00:14:23Yeah. And these were things that, again, everyone laughing about. And at the time, I
00:14:31didn't realize... And this was before I think I started even... I had discovered you. And
00:14:38something didn't feel right, but I just went with it.
00:14:42And I should not have pursued that relationship.
00:14:46That's how much you were your wife's.
00:14:50So this is the interesting thing. I mean, not... Average. Six, seven.
00:15:02Right. Okay. All right.
00:15:05So you chose... I mean, as a well-educated and successful guy, I assume you could have
00:15:14had your pick of the lookers. And not good or bad, right, obviously, but it's a bit more surprising
00:15:20if a man chooses a woman who's not compatible and she's not even a stunner.
00:15:25Right.
00:15:27Okay.
00:15:27And...
00:15:28Sorry, go ahead.
00:15:29No, and that's something that in retrospect, I've... I mean, I realize and I've been incredibly
00:15:36hard on myself because I realize now fatherhood has passed me up. I don't want to say I feel
00:15:47alone, but I feel alone in terms of the decisions that I've made. And through, again, self-exploration,
00:15:57I mean, I realized my upbringing ultimately led me to choosing the partners that I chose.
00:16:05And both of my... I think I mentioned this in my letter, but both of my partners were
00:16:10pretty much carbon copies of my father. I married my dad twice.
00:16:14My second wife had an affair on me. That and the setting of...
00:16:20Also, like, an incredibly traumatic family thing that happened to her and her half-siblings.
00:16:29And...
00:16:30I'm sorry, during the marriage?
00:16:32Yeah, yeah, during the marriage.
00:16:34What happened? I mean, just roughly.
00:16:36So, her stepmother, who is the mother of her half-sister, who she's close with,
00:16:44had a massive stroke. And my ex-wife was really the only functional person in her extended family.
00:16:51So, her stepmother, who she's not even blood-related to, she took on all of these responsibilities.
00:17:02I tried to be supportive as much as I could, but again, taking away from our, I don't know,
00:17:09our relationship, we had gone... Before this, we had gone through fertility treatments to
00:17:15start a family in our late 30s, early 40s.
00:17:22And again, in retrospect, I realized that she probably wasn't all that serious about it because
00:17:29she subconsciously or not, I mean, realized the amount of dysfunction in her own family.
00:17:35Why would she want to bring a child into this?
00:17:44So, a few years ago, I ended up getting a text message from the other wife saying that,
00:17:50your wife and my husband are having an affair, and you deserve to know.
00:17:58And I confronted her on it, and at first she denied it.
00:18:02And she said it was an emotional affair because I wasn't present, which...
00:18:07Oh, yes, it's your fault I had an affair.
00:18:09Yeah, well, exactly. So...
00:18:12And she knew that you had parents who didn't take responsibility for their
00:18:15own dysfunction, so that was particularly cruel.
00:18:18Yeah, exactly.
00:18:20Okay. All right. So, that was it for that, right?
00:18:25Yeah. And, you know, it was...
00:18:27Initially, she said that, you know, it's emotional, I love you, I want to work things out.
00:18:33You know, there was a month or two that we kind of, I'll say, tried,
00:18:40and we went to therapy, and it was clear that she wasn't invested.
00:18:45She said she wasn't still seeing this guy.
00:18:48I had my doubts. I did a little
00:18:50electronic surveillance, and I found out that she had, like, never ended communication with
00:18:56this guy and was still talking to him, and some of the things that she had communicated
00:19:00with him were just, I mean, disgusting.
00:19:01And I called her out on it, and that was sort of the end of the relationship.
00:19:06And she ended up, we ended up going through mediation, and
00:19:09I ended up having to, you know, pay her quite a bit of money, and it was...
00:19:13The money was worth my dignity and self-respect at that point.
00:19:21So, I needed to just be out of that toxic situation.
00:19:25And I haven't talked to her really since.
00:19:28Right. Now, did you choose the women?
00:19:31Because if you're successful and the women aren't even particularly
00:19:36physically attractive, then most commonly, it's that the women latch onto you
00:19:40and you go along with it.
00:19:44Yeah, that was probably feeling as though I was desired.
00:19:55Initially, anyway.
00:19:57And then, again, as the relationship went along, it just...
00:20:01The first marriage is sort of, again, sort of slowly dissolved over time, but this
00:20:06second marriage, she was a bit of a...
00:20:10She had quite a bit of charisma, and...
00:20:14But these weren't women that you pursued?
00:20:17If I understand this rightly, these weren't women that you very strongly pursued and,
00:20:20like, got to have them?
00:20:24My second was.
00:20:25And initially, she was much more attractive, and she ended up, you know, fat-bombing me
00:20:32during the relationship to where...
00:20:35But that's usually because they're in contact with a dysfunctional family.
00:20:39Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, just for an example, like, just to put framework on this, and
00:20:47five or so years, five, six years ago, she got just a routine ear infection,
00:20:54which ended up developing into a really bad infection.
00:20:59And she ended up having to be hospitalized.
00:21:01And she was ending...
00:21:02She ended up getting put on IV antibiotics, so she was in the hospital for, you know, a week.
00:21:08The antibiotics gave her kidney failure to where she needed dialysis,
00:21:13and they were even talking about having to do a kidney transplant.
00:21:17Her mother, who was away with her significant other for winter,
00:21:26learning about this, didn't even come back to see her in the hospital.
00:21:31And I can remember her mother saying, well, should I come in?
00:21:35I'm like, well, mother's name, this is your daughter.
00:21:40I don't know if...
00:21:42She's in the hospital, and they're talking about all these things.
00:21:45And she didn't come to visit her after she got discharged two weeks after being in the hospital.
00:21:53Her mom came in, swooping in, stayed at her house, and it was like this, you know,
00:22:00rushing in to save the day while I had, you know,
00:22:02been holding the fort down and visiting her, you know, twice a day in the hospital.
00:22:06It was not a good feeling.
00:22:11Okay.
00:22:12What has been...
00:22:14It's funny because I'm going backwards here.
00:22:16I normally go forwards, but I have the instinct to go backwards here.
00:22:18So what was your relationship or what is your relationship like with your own
00:22:23parents if they're still alive?
00:22:25Or what was it like over the course of your marriages?
00:22:28So, I mean, my mother had...
00:22:33I mean, again, I was raised by a single mother.
00:22:36My dad was a chronic alcoholic.
00:22:37My mom left him when I was, I think, eight or nine.
00:22:43I was mostly raised by grandparents until my grandfather had a massive stroke.
00:22:51I've always had a good relationship with my mother, open, honest.
00:22:57But interestingly, one of the things through listening to your show that I asked my mother,
00:23:02maybe three or four years ago after this affair came out,
00:23:09I had asked my mother what drew her to my dad and why she married my father,
00:23:15because he's just such a dysfunctional.
00:23:19And he also came from an extremely dysfunctional family.
00:23:23And her only response was, well, if I hadn't met your father,
00:23:28I wouldn't have had you or your brother.
00:23:31And you're the most important things in my life.
00:23:34So going back to you asking me to really sharpen up my response,
00:23:41that was kind of heartbreaking.
00:23:43That was her only answer as to why she chose my father.
00:23:47Heartbreaking.
00:23:50Heartbreaking?
00:23:51Yeah.
00:23:52That's appalling.
00:23:54Heartbreaking because I understood what that meant.
00:23:56Okay.
00:23:57Tell me what you think.
00:23:57Tell me what, sorry, not what you think that means.
00:23:59Tell me what that means for you.
00:24:00Well, that she had similar problems in selecting a dysfunctional person.
00:24:09And her parents didn't help her, didn't help guide her or warn her of this impending disaster
00:24:16with my father and my father's family, who are all chronic alcoholics.
00:24:22So she knew that he was an alcoholic before she married him?
00:24:25Yes.
00:24:25Yeah.
00:24:26Yeah.
00:24:26Okay.
00:24:28Yeah.
00:24:30Yes. And I know exactly what that means.
00:24:33Okay. What exactly does that mean?
00:24:40She chose him to not be alone and thought she would be able to possibly change him
00:24:46or alter his course of dysfunction.
00:24:52Save him from his parents, which is not possible.
00:24:57Okay.
00:24:57So the problem is with your mother.
00:25:00Now, I've got almost an hour and again, I'm really sorry for being late,
00:25:06but you're a very smart guy, so we can hit the gas.
00:25:09So the problem is with your relationship with your mother.
00:25:13There's something you don't see.
00:25:15So you have a good relationship with your mother.
00:25:18Okay.
00:25:19So let's talk a little bit about your childhood.
00:25:20And for instance, you said you're mostly raised by your grandmother, right?
00:25:27During my younger...
00:25:29So I was mostly raised by myself.
00:25:30That is the other problem, because again, my grandfather ended up having a stroke.
00:25:36My grandmother was disabled.
00:25:38Pretty much at the age of 10, I was left alone.
00:25:43I was raised by TV, Dungeons and Dragons.
00:25:47I've been there, yeah.
00:25:49Yeah.
00:25:50Okay.
00:25:52So why was your mother working hard?
00:25:54I mean, why was she not available to raise you?
00:25:58Working.
00:25:59Single mother, again, I was raised by my grandmother.
00:26:03I was raised by my grandmother.
00:26:05Working.
00:26:06Single mother, again, if my grandfather...
00:26:10That didn't happen to my grandfather, I'm sure I would have had other people help raise me.
00:26:17But it was mostly myself.
00:26:19And I mean, I felt like a piggy in the Lord of the Flies at times.
00:26:23Okay.
00:26:26So why...
00:26:30She was working, but your grandparents were raising you when you were younger.
00:26:34So she would have nights and weekends, right?
00:26:37Sure.
00:26:38And how available was she then?
00:26:43As available as I think she probably could have been.
00:26:48As a single mother in her late 30s, raising two young boys.
00:26:54I, again, looking back at things, I mean, I wish I would have been exposed to more positive
00:27:01male influences.
00:27:03Even at that time...
00:27:04Did she date?
00:27:07Not a lot.
00:27:08I mean, she prioritized, I would say, the best that she could, my brother and I.
00:27:16She didn't have guys coming in and out.
00:27:18She didn't...
00:27:19She wasn't going out.
00:27:20She wasn't...
00:27:22So she prioritized you and your brother the best that she could, is that...
00:27:25The best that she could as a woman.
00:27:29But that's not what I needed.
00:27:31I needed a strong male role model, not Charles Bronson and Chuck Norris showing me how to
00:27:39deal with life's problems.
00:27:41Oh, you mean like she dated some fairly lower class guys?
00:27:46No, no, no.
00:27:47She didn't date anybody.
00:27:48I mean, she did when I got a little bit older.
00:27:51I mean, she did date some people, but they weren't always at the house and she wasn't
00:28:00she wasn't always...
00:28:01Okay, so I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:28:02So tell me if you can, tell me, I'm sorry you can't, on a sort of typical evenings and
00:28:09weekends, like, did you chat with her?
00:28:11Did you play board games?
00:28:12Did you go for walks?
00:28:14Did you, like, whatever, you know, hear about her life and get advice?
00:28:18And did you share with her about what was going on at school?
00:28:21I mean, because she's working, but there's nights and weekends, right?
00:28:25Yeah, yeah.
00:28:26Yeah, I mean, we would talk, but the important things, I don't think so.
00:28:31She'd ask how school was going.
00:28:33I would say things.
00:28:38We would, you know, she tried to take us on little vacations here and there with what
00:28:44she could.
00:28:44We grew up in, you know, a two-bedroom rent-controlled house.
00:28:48No, the money doesn't matter.
00:28:50The money is irrelevant.
00:28:52You can be a great parent and be broke.
00:28:55I mean, that's not the issue.
00:28:57So, did you have substantive conversations with your mother about, you said you mostly
00:29:04raised yourself.
00:29:05What that means is that it sounds like your mother wasn't, she may have spent time with
00:29:09you, but she wasn't spending quality time with you in terms of having important conversations
00:29:12about.
00:29:13Yeah, I would say that is the case, surface level.
00:29:19Okay, okay.
00:29:22And I mean, and I, at this point in my life, I could say I'm, you know, a couple levels
00:29:27beyond surface level that I need more than surface level.
00:29:33Okay.
00:29:33Is your mother still alive?
00:29:35Yes, she is.
00:29:36And your relationship with her at the moment is what state?
00:29:41We talk regularly.
00:29:42Um, she is, you know, despite the, um, what we're talking about now, I mean, I think I've
00:29:52heard her swear like three times in her entire life.
00:29:55Uh, I have, we have an open relationship.
00:29:59Now we talk especially regarding my, you know, my most recent divorce from almost three years
00:30:08ago and that happened.
00:30:10But again, very little insight into it.
00:30:12Um, okay.
00:30:15Sorry.
00:30:15Is your brother older or younger?
00:30:17Younger.
00:30:18Okay.
00:30:18And how's your brother doing?
00:30:22Outwardly, I think very, he's doing.
00:30:25No, sorry.
00:30:26In terms of relationships, I'm sure you guys are all professionally successful.
00:30:29Yeah, no, uh, in terms of relationship, I don't have much of a relationship with my
00:30:33brother at this point.
00:30:34Okay.
00:30:34And what about, uh, how is your brother in terms of, is he married?
00:30:38Does he have kids?
00:30:40He is, um, in a long-term committed relationship.
00:30:44He has one daughter with his first wife.
00:30:46His first wife was, um, kind of a lot like I would say a combination of my first and
00:30:52second marriages.
00:30:54Okay.
00:30:55So not particularly successful in terms of marriage, right?
00:30:58Correct.
00:30:58Yep.
00:30:59And correct.
00:31:00And you'll have one kid between you.
00:31:03He has one child.
00:31:04Yes, I have none.
00:31:05Okay.
00:31:06All right.
00:31:07So let's get back when you said to your mother, basically what drew you to my, to
00:31:13your father, right?
00:31:14Right.
00:31:15And she said, well, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have you and your brother, right?
00:31:20Yeah.
00:31:20And I did press her on that a little bit more.
00:31:22And, um, and some of the things that she said were, you know, he had a kind heart.
00:31:32Um, he, I mean, it was almost like she was describing, um,
00:31:42he was looking to get out of his.
00:31:46Sorry, I mean, so this is where you get your narrative habits from and the narratives are
00:31:52dangerous, right?
00:31:53This is why we always have to return back to facts and empiricism, right?
00:31:57Are you a religious man?
00:31:59Uh, not as well.
00:32:03Um, not organizational religion any longer.
00:32:07I grew up, uh, Catholic.
00:32:09Okay.
00:32:10I mean, as a medical professional, I'm, I'm sure, of course, that you prefer the scientific
00:32:15method for the exploration of illness as opposed to its demonic possession.
00:32:19Absolutely.
00:32:20Right.
00:32:20Because you can't cure anything with demonic possession, except maybe, I don't know, maybe
00:32:25some psychosomatic stuff.
00:32:26But, uh, we, we prefer evidence-based medicine rather than narrative because narrative, you
00:32:34can just make up whatever you want and it gives you the illusion of knowledge without
00:32:37the fact of knowledge.
00:32:38So I'll tell you what I found appalling about what your mother said, because he had a kind
00:32:42heart is meaningless.
00:32:46A man with a kind heart doesn't drink himself into oblivion when he has a family.
00:32:54Right.
00:32:54Right.
00:32:54He gets help, right?
00:32:56Goes to a 12-step program, gets, I don't know, whatever drugs you can get to help with
00:33:01alcohol addiction, and he sorts that shit out, right?
00:33:04Yep.
00:33:05I agree.
00:33:06Okay.
00:33:06So this kind heart stuff is nonsense.
00:33:08If he has a kind heart, even if he screws up that badly, he still will stay in his child's
00:33:12life.
00:33:13Right.
00:33:14Which he didn't do, right?
00:33:16Well, he tried to remain in my life and he still is sort of like this appendage in my
00:33:23life.
00:33:25And again, going back to even when they split up, the fact that my mother let him see me
00:33:36and my brother while he was still an alcoholic and driving us around and I mean, yeah, again,
00:33:45judgment not the best.
00:33:47That's all.
00:33:48Judgment not the best.
00:33:50My mother's judgment.
00:33:51No, I know who you're talking about.
00:33:54All right.
00:33:54Judgment not the best.
00:33:55So she put you in danger of death or grievous bodily harm by handing you over to an alcoholic
00:34:02who was a driver.
00:34:04Absolutely.
00:34:04And also other people, right?
00:34:07Because you could have crashed into anyone, right?
00:34:09Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:10Okay.
00:34:12So judgment not the best.
00:34:14Okay.
00:34:15As a kid, I can remember the cops pulling my dad over.
00:34:19This was like back in the 80s where, oh, you know, he's drunk.
00:34:24They drive me home and, you know, it was like different than it is now.
00:34:30And I can remember that as a young kid, I didn't understand what that all meant.
00:34:34But now I do.
00:34:37So yeah, I didn't feel protected.
00:34:40And that's part of the reason why I created all these false selves.
00:34:44Okay.
00:34:44So back to narrative.
00:34:46All right.
00:34:47So she says, I am happy to have met your father because it gave me you and your brother, right?
00:34:56Well, I don't know if she used happy, but that I think that's the way that she heard
00:35:01her narrative and how she can explain it.
00:35:04Okay.
00:35:04To me, utterly narcissistic.
00:35:09It's about what she got out of it and what she prefers.
00:35:12Not about what was best for you and your brother.
00:35:17Yeah, especially after having me.
00:35:21And then two years later, having my two and a half years later, having my brother and
00:35:27knowing that and bringing my brother into.
00:35:29Okay.
00:35:30So she is happy to have you guys in her life.
00:35:34Did she ask one single question about how you experienced your father or about how tough
00:35:41it was for you?
00:35:42No.
00:35:43So that's blindingly staggeringly, in my humble opinion, and utterly narcissistic.
00:35:55Because she should have.
00:35:56I mean, she didn't say I'm appalled at how difficult it was for you and your brother
00:36:01that I chose such a bad father for you.
00:36:04Yeah.
00:36:04I mean, outside of the existential question that, of course, you wouldn't be you if it
00:36:08wasn't for the father, but you know, the form for my children, right?
00:36:12She did not utter one comment or show the slightest curiosity on how difficult any of
00:36:17that was for you and your brother.
00:36:20And she can see the consequences of her decision, which is the failed marriages.
00:36:29Right.
00:36:30Yeah.
00:36:31So we could say, of course, and I understand all of this where you'd say, well, but my
00:36:36mother was, you know, the young and dumb excuse.
00:36:38You know, she was young.
00:36:39She was untutored, blah, blah, blah.
00:36:40Okay.
00:36:40Okay.
00:36:41All right.
00:36:41So let's, let's, I don't like waving that magic wand because I'm a free will guy, but
00:36:45let's say that that's something we could accept.
00:36:47Okay.
00:36:48How old is she now?
00:36:49Is she in her eighties?
00:36:50Seventy?
00:36:51Seventy-seven.
00:36:52Seventy-six.
00:36:53Okay.
00:36:54And so when she was a couple of years ago, when she was in her mid-seventies, she was
00:36:58still as bottomlessly selfish as she was in her twenties.
00:37:04What did she learn over half a century?
00:37:07I mean, we can say, oh, the twenties, whatever bad decisions, you know, out of a bad child.
00:37:12Okay.
00:37:13I get that.
00:37:15Did she help warn you against any of the bad relationships that you and your brother had?
00:37:20No, I don't know about my brother, but
00:37:27no, and, and she had, she had been around my second wife and my second wife's
00:37:33mother, who, you know, knew a lot of the,
00:37:40yeah, the dysfunction there for sure.
00:37:42Okay.
00:37:42So she didn't parent you really, right?
00:37:49She, she abandoned her parental responsibilities
00:37:54for other, she abandoned her parental responsibilities for you.
00:38:02To, to your grandparents, right?
00:38:05To her parents.
00:38:09Um, can you rephrase that?
00:38:11I'm not sure.
00:38:12She abandoned her parental responsibilities to let her parents raise you.
00:38:17Uh, yeah, for, again, for a very short period of time.
00:38:22And then my grandparents were not able to do that.
00:38:24There was, I probably would have been.
00:38:26Then she abandoned you to the internet and the television.
00:38:29Yeah, right.
00:38:29Correct.
00:38:30Yes.
00:38:30100.
00:38:32Okay.
00:38:33I mean, you were 10.
00:38:34Your brother is younger, right?
00:38:37Yes.
00:38:37Okay.
00:38:38So your parents, sorry, your mother left you home alone when you were 10 and your brother was
00:38:44seven or eight, right?
00:38:47A large portion of the time.
00:38:51Okay.
00:38:51And don't tell me where you are in the world, but in many places in the world, that's criminal.
00:38:57Um, you cannot leave a 10 and a seven-year-old home alone.
00:39:08So it's this criminal levels of irresponsibility.
00:39:11I mean, what if he'd had a medical emergency?
00:39:13What if he'd fallen and hurt himself?
00:39:17I mean, you were lucky.
00:39:27Yeah.
00:39:28But it was dangerous.
00:39:29I mean, it wasn't just your father.
00:39:31No, no, I, 100%.
00:39:33I know that.
00:39:35Okay.
00:39:35So irresponsible criminal.
00:39:37And, you know, we can say, oh, but it's the government and legitimacy.
00:39:40But in a free society, you wouldn't be allowed to do that.
00:39:42You can't leave a 10-year-old and a seven-year-old home alone, especially boys.
00:39:50I mean, sorry to make you laugh because it's crazy.
00:39:53My brother and I were left alone.
00:39:54We wanted to watch TV.
00:39:55My mother had locked the TV in another room.
00:39:57So we got out on a third floor balcony railing and climbed along the edge of a building to
00:40:02get into the other room.
00:40:04I mean, we could sort of laugh about it in a way, but that's insane.
00:40:11And we were not far off from that age.
00:40:19I mean, I assume you wouldn't do that if you had kids?
00:40:23No.
00:40:24No, not at this point.
00:40:27Right.
00:40:38So that's appalling.
00:40:44So you weren't parented by her, really?
00:40:47And she left you home alone?
00:40:49Was it starting at the age of 10 or was it even younger?
00:40:52No, well, so yes, about the age of 10, whether it was with my grandparents who were, again,
00:41:04very elderly, and my grandfather had just had a massive stroke.
00:41:10Yeah, I mean, yeah, like I said, in hindsight, it was self-survival and preservation.
00:41:22Sorry, what?
00:41:23I'm not sure what that refers, who's self-survival and preservation?
00:41:27Just trying to preserve myself, and I don't want to get into narrative like you had said,
00:41:32but in retrospect, the feelings of your abandonment and being alone,
00:41:43yeah, and then all the risks and
00:41:46dangers associated with that exposure to things that I probably shouldn't have been exposed to.
00:41:54I assume you mean like internet pornography?
00:41:58Oh, no, this was pre-internet pornography.
00:42:02Okay, so when you were asking about your childhood, she only talked about herself.
00:42:11Has she ever asked you or your brother, to your knowledge,
00:42:14has she ever asked you about the effects of your chaotic and often neglected childhood
00:42:20on your lives?
00:42:21No, not me.
00:42:23Okay, why do you think, I mean, she's got the evidence, right?
00:42:28She can see the sort of trail of bad marriages and bad decisions and few to no kids and all of
00:42:34that, so she can see all of the effects of that, so why do you think she hasn't asked you about
00:42:41your life or what may have gone wrong or what the issues may be or
00:42:44what happened with your childhood and so on?
00:42:48Don't know.
00:42:50Sure you do.
00:42:51I'm sure everybody cries.
00:42:52Of course you know, I mean, you've known the woman for almost half a century,
00:42:55right?
00:42:56So you know her motives, you know what's going on.
00:42:58As soon as I said I don't know, I knew exactly where this was going,
00:43:03because I mean, it would implicate a failure on her part.
00:43:07Okay.
00:43:08And her inability to, you know, successfully parent.
00:43:18Okay, did she successfully parent?
00:43:21No.
00:43:21Okay, so she's not your mother in that sense.
00:43:26She's like a chaotic roommate who paid the bills.
00:43:31She didn't parent you.
00:43:38Right?
00:43:49So what's wrong with trying to figure out whether she made good or bad decisions?
00:44:04What's wrong with having a fair evaluation?
00:44:08No, there's nothing wrong with it.
00:44:11And if anything, it helps me.
00:44:14I mean, at this point, she's made bad decisions.
00:44:21There's no question.
00:44:27And I accept that.
00:44:29And in no way do I view, like, when I look at both of my parents,
00:44:33and I view this differently than my brother,
00:44:35that my mother's just as responsible as my father.
00:44:38And my brother, you know, will, you know, point to, you know, my dad's dysfunction.
00:44:44But I said to him even recently, like, mom picked dad, you know, she's not off the hook.
00:44:54Mom picked dad, you know, she's not off the hook with that.
00:45:00And that's certainly troubled me.
00:45:06Right, okay.
00:45:09And I realized that has influenced my poor decision-making
00:45:14in who I've chosen to surround myself with.
00:45:20Right, okay.
00:45:20Okay.
00:45:26And choose to be close with.
00:45:35Okay.
00:45:38So, what is your moral evaluation of your mother?
00:45:46Well, as far as what we're talking about, it's not good.
00:45:51Um.
00:45:57Yeah, I mean, and I accept that.
00:45:59And I understand this.
00:46:01And that, I know through both my own therapy that I've done, journaling,
00:46:11and listening to your show, definitely to an extent,
00:46:15that's played probably the biggest role in where,
00:46:20where and why I've chosen the relationships I've chosen.
00:46:25And my inability to select a good partner.
00:46:33I mean, I learned.
00:46:34Well, did your mother approve of your marriages?
00:46:36Was she enthusiastic about the marriages?
00:46:39The first?
00:46:39No, I don't think the first wife she was.
00:46:42The second wife.
00:46:42No, no, no.
00:46:43She was.
00:46:43I mean, was she vocal?
00:46:45Well, she did after.
00:46:47Well, that's sabotage, though.
00:46:49Yeah, well, yeah, that I realize.
00:46:52Again, that came to light afterwards, after the divorce.
00:46:58She approved of my second wife, as did a lot of other people.
00:47:06As did a lot of other people in my life that...
00:47:10Well, that just means that they are not wise enough to help you avoid disaster.
00:47:16Because you talk about all of your issues or sins or problems
00:47:22as if you're doing this in an isolated fashion.
00:47:25Now, if you were out living in the woods and you say,
00:47:27oh, I looked up the wrong plant and I ate the wrong plant and I got a rash, right?
00:47:35Or whatever, right?
00:47:36I'd say, well, you know, that wasn't particularly wise,
00:47:38but at least you weren't being surrounded by people who claimed to love you, right?
00:47:44So you have this isolation of your childhood.
00:47:48You say that your current wife says that you're too self-critical,
00:47:50but that's because you are not recognizing, and I understand why,
00:47:55but you aren't recognizing that you don't make individual decisions in a social environment.
00:48:03You don't.
00:48:05Can you explain that a little bit better?
00:48:07Sure.
00:48:07No, I'm sorry.
00:48:08It wasn't clear.
00:48:09Okay, so when my wife got pregnant, she said, we need a house, right?
00:48:15And so we talked about it and we got a house, right?
00:48:19But she wouldn't just go and buy a house, right?
00:48:21Neither would I, right?
00:48:24We discuss things.
00:48:28So when I have employees and I want to do a particular thing in the show that involves them,
00:48:35we talk about it and negotiate it, make sure that we're all on the same page.
00:48:38I don't make individual decisions in my life because I'm a husband, I'm a father,
00:48:44I work with people and I have friendships, and so I don't make individual decisions.
00:48:48So when something goes wrong in your life, and, you know, obviously some things have gone
00:48:53very right in your professional life and all of that, and congratulations, I mean,
00:48:56that's very cool and very admirable, but in terms of the personal stuff,
00:49:01you look back and you say, I made these mistakes.
00:49:06I didn't think of this, or I didn't do that, or I was not available enough,
00:49:10or I worked too much, or, you know, I'm sorry to sort of skim over your marriages,
00:49:15but these were some of the things that I heard, and you take on that that's just you.
00:49:20That's not just you.
00:49:22Who is in your life?
00:49:23You have a brother, you have a father, you have a mother.
00:49:27As a bare minimum, you also have extended family,
00:49:30you had an uncle who influenced you, and you have friends.
00:49:34So how many people do you think you have watching your back when you make decisions?
00:49:40Watching your back when you make decisions?
00:49:43I would argue at least eight and probably ten.
00:49:54Is that a fair statement?
00:49:56Yeah.
00:49:57Okay.
00:49:57So when you go into battle, right, why do we not have eyes in the back of our head?
00:50:01Because we're social animals, which means that other people are supposed to watch our backs,
00:50:08and that's why we don't, like, if I'm going into battle and I'm alone,
00:50:11I'm going to keep looking around and turning around, right?
00:50:15But if you and I go into battle and we're back to back,
00:50:18my back is covered while you're still alive, right?
00:50:20Mm-hmm.
00:50:23So you look at the decisions you've made in your life as personal issues, personal failures.
00:50:31Untrue.
00:50:34Absolutely untrue.
00:50:36Why?
00:50:38Because you're not alone.
00:50:43So if you and I go into battle and I wander off and then you get hit in the back with some club,
00:50:51you'd get mad at me, right?
00:50:52Because I didn't tell you I was leaving.
00:50:53I just kind of wandered off and you thought I was back there.
00:50:58You wouldn't sit there and say, oh my god, I left my back completely unguarded.
00:51:02I didn't watch my six.
00:51:03I'm such an idiot.
00:51:04It's like, no, I wandered off.
00:51:08Yeah.
00:51:09Because you're so used to doing everything in an isolated fashion that you take
00:51:14all of the responsibility for mistakes.
00:51:18Yeah.
00:51:21And I've got to be frank, the cruelty, if not the outright sadism of afterwards saying,
00:51:27oh, I knew that marriage wasn't, she wasn't right for you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
00:51:32That's like me saying to my daughter when she's learning how to ride a bike,
00:51:35oh yeah, you should totally, yeah, yeah.
00:51:37If you want to ride down that hill, that's fine.
00:51:39If you want to ride down that hill, I'll be there.
00:51:42If that's what works for you, great.
00:51:44And she rides down the hill and I don't know, she breaks her arm.
00:51:48And then I'm like, I knew you couldn't do that hill, man.
00:51:53But that's weird.
00:51:55That's cruel, right?
00:52:02Sorry, you're fidgeting a little.
00:52:04Sorry.
00:52:06Yeah.
00:52:07So I want to break you out of the isolation because the way out of your self-attack
00:52:14is to stop thinking that you were just making all these decisions in these
00:52:20pure God or beast isolation omnipotence.
00:52:26Your mother made a bad decision in marriage.
00:52:29So outside of just raising you, which doesn't seem to have done very much,
00:52:35outside of just raising you, she has one job.
00:52:38And one job only when you and your brother become adults.
00:52:42Because she had a very bad marriage.
00:52:46So what is her one job when you all become adults?
00:52:56Sending us off into adulthood.
00:53:00That's done by nature.
00:53:02What is her one job?
00:53:04Because the biggest disaster in her life was her marriage to your father, right?
00:53:07Making sure we don't repeat the same mistake.
00:53:09Exactly.
00:53:10It is making sure you and your brother marry well.
00:53:15So she's got to read books.
00:53:17She's got to go to therapy.
00:53:22She's got to consult with experts.
00:53:23She's got to watch videos.
00:53:24She's got to keep a journal.
00:53:26She's got to figure out what went wrong.
00:53:27And she's got to explain to you all the bad decisions she made.
00:53:31So you don't repeat them.
00:53:35That's her job.
00:53:37Yep.
00:53:39And she's in her mid-70s.
00:53:43And she's not lifted a finger to help you and your brother avoid the mistakes
00:53:48that she has made to the detriment of you being a father.
00:53:57Her selfishness and self-justifications and lack of curiosity, lack of interest,
00:54:00lack of protection, lack of parenting has literally, literally de-balled you.
00:54:07Emasculated you.
00:54:09Your balls are there to make babies.
00:54:16And this is why I was so appalled when she said,
00:54:20Oh no, but it's...
00:54:21Hey man, marrying your father was great for me.
00:54:24Oh yeah.
00:54:25No, it totally worked for me.
00:54:26I got what I wanted.
00:54:27I got a couple of kids out of it.
00:54:28It's great to know you and your brother.
00:54:30Wonderful.
00:54:32Not looking at any of the goddamn carnage of you guys' lives
00:54:37that arises because she wasn't watching your back.
00:54:41She encouraged you to repeat her mistakes.
00:54:49And then I completely and totally stabbed you in the back afterwards when she said,
00:54:55Oh yeah, no, I knew that wasn't the right marriage.
00:54:58That wasn't the right woman for you, right?
00:55:04And then you tell me,
00:55:05Oh, you know, with pure innocence and honesty,
00:55:08Oh yeah, my mom and I, we have a real honest and open, good relationship, blah, blah, blah.
00:55:13But this is why you have no self-protection from the crazies.
00:55:17And I'm not calling your ex-wife's crazies,
00:55:20but I'm thinking about the stepmother with your second wife
00:55:23who had the sudden onset dementia and your wife is like,
00:55:26Oh, I got to take care of all of this.
00:55:28And that was a big problem with your marriage, right?
00:55:31Yeah, at the end, for sure.
00:55:32Right.
00:55:35Okay, what did your, what did your wives think of your mother?
00:55:41Oh, they loved her.
00:55:42Oh my God.
00:55:48Oh my God.
00:55:51Well, that's a, that's a red flag, right?
00:55:53They loved her and they loved her, their own mothers, which I also found kind of bizarre.
00:56:03Sorry, it was bizarre that they left their own mothers.
00:56:06Yeah.
00:56:06But like bizarre that they left your mother.
00:56:10I mean, in retrospect, yeah, now I understand, I can see that.
00:56:14But at the time with the amount of like dysfunctional things that they had shared with me,
00:56:20it's like, well, how, but looking at, in retrospect, I mean, they're both equally bad.
00:56:36Right.
00:56:36But you can't have any protection against dysfunctional people.
00:56:40Right.
00:56:40If you can't even have a direct conversation with your own mother
00:56:43about like, like both of your kids have these messed up relationships, or at least had.
00:56:50Mm-hmm.
00:56:51Like, why didn't you teach us better?
00:56:52Why didn't you learn from dad?
00:56:56Yeah.
00:56:57Yeah.
00:56:58I mean, she chose absolutely the wrong father for her children and
00:57:08she continues to praise that decision.
00:57:10I mean, if your mother has learned nothing in over three quarters of a century,
00:57:16how are you supposed to learn anything?
00:57:17How are you supposed to have a standard of improvement?
00:57:22That makes sense.
00:57:25So you blame yourself to protect your mother.
00:57:32I mean, I almost married the wrong woman and, you know, it was in a sense, just fortune and luck
00:57:39that I didn't.
00:57:40And after I almost married the wrong woman, which I mean, could have ruined my life,
00:57:45without a doubt, probably would have.
00:57:47After that, I had to look at everyone around me and say,
00:57:50okay, why did they not say anything?
00:57:55Either they had no idea that this was the wrong woman for me, in which case,
00:57:58how could they possibly claim to know anything about me?
00:58:00Or they knew that it was the wrong woman for me and they were fine with that.
00:58:09Either way.
00:58:10Holy crap.
00:58:13So you, you have this belief that your marriage exists in isolation from all of
00:58:17your other relationships.
00:58:18And if it goes wrong, well, that's, that's just on you, man.
00:58:22You just made mistakes.
00:58:23You just did the wrong thing.
00:58:25Nope, couldn't be more wrong.
00:58:26Sorry to be annoying, but you couldn't be more wrong.
00:58:35Your marriages were a collective error.
00:58:40Everyone who was older than you, I mean, your uncle,
00:58:43what did your uncle say about your marriages?
00:58:48Again, my, my first, probably similar that, like,
00:58:59he, after the fact that he didn't think we were aligned.
00:59:05And I can remember thinking when he said that, like,
00:59:10I wish someone would have told me this beforehand.
00:59:13And I've had a very superficial relationship with my father.
00:59:23And I can remember going out to breakfast with him before my first marriage and
00:59:30sitting with him, thinking, wishing that he would say, don't go through with this.
00:59:44But yeah, no, you're 100% when...
00:59:48So you got married to protect your parents.
00:59:51Your parents wanted you to get married because the women you were marrying
00:59:58posed no threat to their authority, power, and parenthood over you.
01:00:08Because a quality woman would have looked at these people and said,
01:00:10oh, you know, these are the people who did the most harm to you.
01:00:14And I love you.
01:00:15And I can't also love the people who did you the most harm.
01:00:19Right.
01:00:19If you're, if you're, if some guy in a bar beat up the woman you love,
01:00:25would you, could you love him too?
01:00:28No, of course not.
01:00:30So you can't love people and also love the people who did them the greatest harm.
01:00:35And your parents did you by far the greatest harm of any people.
01:00:38So all the people who say, oh no, your parents are great.
01:00:42They are cheering on the people who abused and neglected you, abandoned you,
01:00:48used you selfishly as your mother admitted for their own ends, their own pleasures,
01:00:52their own preferences, not giving one rat's ass about what you thought or felt or what
01:00:57was best for you.
01:01:00So a quality woman comes along and I'm not saying that your current one is not,
01:01:04I'm just saying like if a really quality woman comes along,
01:01:08she's going to look at your parents and she's going to say, yeah,
01:01:10I kind of hate them because they really did harm for you.
01:01:13And they've never really apologized.
01:01:15They've never really made restitution.
01:01:19They don't ask you how they can do better.
01:01:21They don't ask you to improve.
01:01:22They just use you.
01:01:27So I don't like them.
01:01:28How could I like them?
01:01:29So if a quality woman comes along, that's going to threaten the authority your parents
01:01:41have and the power your parents have over you because they're going to say, no,
01:01:44I don't want these people around my grandkids.
01:01:46Are you crazy?
01:01:47Of course not.
01:01:49I can't have selfish people around my grandkids.
01:01:53I don't even like, I don't want to go visit them.
01:01:59I don't like them.
01:02:00In fact, I despise them because they are unapologetic.
01:02:06And they did the man I love the greatest harm of anyone in the world.
01:02:10Do not ask me.
01:02:11I mean, you can ask me all you want, but I don't like them.
01:02:14I won't like them.
01:02:15And I certainly will not have them around my grandkids.
01:02:18So if you want to get married and have kids, my friend, you have a choice to make.
01:02:24You can hang around with mommy and daddy who abandoned and neglected you,
01:02:28or you can be with me, but you can't have both.
01:02:32Because I have to do what's best for the kids.
01:02:34And also what in fact happens to be best for you.
01:02:37What's best for the kids is not to have weird narcissistic child abusers and neglecters around.
01:02:43And also it's not good for you.
01:02:45I can't stand seeing you bow down before these people and not get any of your needs met and,
01:02:53you know, kind of be their goofy, happy slave.
01:02:56I can't, I can't, like, I can't do it.
01:02:58I won't do it.
01:03:01And if your parents came over, let's say your mother came over,
01:03:04then a quality woman would be like, okay, so, you know, Mrs. Smith or whatever her name is,
01:03:10help me understand, you know, I've heard some troubling things from the man I love about his
01:03:14childhood and, you know, because I care about him and I want a safe environment for my family and
01:03:20my kids, you know, we really need to kind of discuss this because this is, you know, pretty
01:03:26troubling, pretty troubling.
01:03:33And then there would be, like, a massive family convulsion and your mom would get mad and storm
01:03:39around and this and that and the other because somebody would be finally sticking up for you.
01:03:51What does your current partner think of your mother and your father?
01:03:57Yeah,
01:04:12from the surface level, I think pretty much the same.
01:04:18The same as what? I just went through a bunch of scenarios.
01:04:22I would say that my mom outwardly is kind.
01:04:34Okay, sorry, sorry, bro. You and I are smart enough that this outwardly stuff is meaningless.
01:04:40Have you told your partner what happened in your childhood?
01:04:44About my father being an alcoholic? Yes.
01:04:47And your mother marrying and your mother basically not raising you and not giving you any feedback.
01:04:52And have you also told your partner about how your mother did not help you in your adulthood,
01:04:57did not warn you about dangerous women to marry, but struck it around afterwards saying how wise
01:05:03she was and she knew all the whole time? I mean, have you told your partner the truth about your
01:05:09mother?
01:05:23I think that's a conversation that I have to, again, go below the surface, which
01:05:30yeah.
01:05:40In other words, are you giving your partner a just and fair evaluation of your mother so that
01:05:46she can make her own choices? Or are you controlling and manipulating the information
01:05:53so that you can continue to appease your mother? Because you have a very
01:05:58fragmented, in my view, obviously my humble opinion, you have a very fragmented
01:06:02and sketchy relationship with your mother. And fragmented and sketchy relationships that are
01:06:06perceived to be essential always breed compliance, enslavement, appeasement.
01:06:12Because you should have a strong enough relationship that you can challenge your
01:06:15mother with your genuine thoughts, feelings and experience and the relationship will be
01:06:19strengthened thereby.
01:06:21But you don't have that, so you have to comply, otherwise your mother will reject you or abandon
01:06:26you because she already signaled and modeled that she preferred other things to raising you.
01:06:35That's a sketchy bond. Sure, it's a fragile bond. And a fragile bond means, a strong bond is when
01:06:42you can strongly disagree and have a better relationship thereby. A sketchy bond is when,
01:06:55if you say something that the other person doesn't like, they just shut down, ostracize,
01:07:00abandon, reject, neglect, whatever, right? They just punish you.
01:07:02Appeased.
01:07:03And appeased, yeah.
01:07:04Yeah, so to be in the relationship with your parents, you have to shut up and agree with them.
01:07:13And that's terrible.
01:07:16Yeah, I've definitely broken from that with my father, maybe 10 years ago.
01:07:28And beyond, again, me asking that question to my mother after the dissolution of my
01:07:37second marriage, yeah, I have not done that.
01:07:45And I'm not blaming you for that at all. Obviously, I hope you're not getting any,
01:07:49I'm not criticizing, I'm just simply pointing out the pattern.
01:07:54No, that's what I need more than anything else. And I guess the correlate to that,
01:08:00which I don't know if we'll be able to get into, but what do I do about that in my late 40s now?
01:08:11Well, no, so you've still got another 40 years on the planet, right?
01:08:15Absolutely.
01:08:16And you should have love, and you have a niece or a nephew.
01:08:21Yes.
01:08:22And you can do good in your community, and you can do good in your practice, and you can do good
01:08:27in your relationship. So learning that we put honesty above other people's immediate preferences,
01:08:38you can't have a relationship if you lie. And I'm not calling you a liar,
01:08:42right? But you were raised to appease your parents.
01:08:46Because, I mean, the bond was so fragile. I mean, your father obviously abandoned you,
01:08:50your mother, to some degree, abandoned you, or certainly didn't raise you,
01:08:55which means that she doesn't, she's there for her, not for you. And if she's there for her,
01:08:58not for you, then if you show up, and it's uncomfortable for her, she'll just drop you
01:09:03like a hot potato. So it's going on the principle that I am not going to spend,
01:09:11I had to spend the first half of my life lying, I don't have to spend the second half of my life
01:09:15lying, and appeasing, and groveling in a way. So, I mean, whether you have honest conversations
01:09:24with your parents, I don't know, that's obviously a decision for you to make, but having a commitment
01:09:29to just say, look, I'm going to tell the truth. And if it bothers people, it bothers people.
01:09:34But I'm not going to pretend to have a relationship, but there is no relationship.
01:09:39I'm not going to have this, hey, nice weather for this type of year kind of nonsense going on.
01:09:44So what you do about it, I think, I mean, I don't know if you've read my book Real-Time
01:09:47Relationships, but I think what you do is you just make that commitment, that foundational
01:09:52commitment to tell the truth no matter what. Tell the truth though the skies fall, tell the truth
01:09:56and shame the devil, all the stuff that you and I were raised with. And then I have not bear false
01:10:01witness. Yes, and I have read RTR, and I've embodied a lot of that into all of my relationships
01:10:10being like 100% truthful and being prepared to break or significantly limit certain relationships
01:10:22that are not healthy in my life. What I'm hearing from you, Steph, is...
01:10:28No, you can't get angry at your mother.
01:10:33That's the problem.
01:10:34I realize that, and I've realized that from this conversation, that that's the
01:10:41nucleus of what we're talking about here. So other than getting angry at my mother and
01:10:52having, I guess, coming to terms with that,
01:11:01where do I go?
01:11:02Well, I tell you what, brother, do that, and that's a lot.
01:11:08So do that, and that's a lot. And this is interesting because, again, I've got to go in a
01:11:12minute or two, and I'm sorry for this, but I'm happy to pick this up again. If you decide to
01:11:16have an honest conversation with your mother, I would be absolutely fascinated to talk to you
01:11:21afterwards and find out how it went.
01:11:24Well, more so at some point, would you be open to like a role play with that, what that would
01:11:29sound like?
01:11:30Sure, sure, absolutely. In fact, if you want to do that before, we can schedule another
01:11:36one and do that. Listen, I showed up late this morning, so I'm absolutely... you're
01:11:40back in call, because I made the error, I made the mistake.
01:11:44No worries.
01:11:44So if you want to reschedule, we can do that role play, whatever I can do to help you with
01:11:49that, I'd be thrilled to help you. Because look, man, I mean, you're a great guy, you do a lot
01:11:53of good in the world, and you genuinely and deeply deserve to have the kind of love,
01:11:58relaxation, emotional availability and commitment. But you know, you say you're not
01:12:02emotionally available, well, that's because you constantly have to appease selfish people
01:12:07growing up, and that's still part of your life. So you can't be emotionally available
01:12:11because your emotions are dangerous, toxic or harmful to selfish people, because selfish
01:12:15people do not like it when you have your own thoughts and feelings independent of their
01:12:20immediate preferences. They do not like it, and they will punish you for it. So I can
01:12:26be emotionally available if punishment, if honesty results in punishment, how can you
01:12:30be emotionally available?
01:12:32I understand that. And I appreciate your time. My homework will be, I will have that
01:12:38conversation with my current partner, that honest conversation with my current partner.
01:12:45And that, sorry to interrupt, but that also involves you talking about her family.
01:12:50Yes.
01:12:51Which is, okay, do you like her family and the effect that they have on her?
01:13:00Are these people you want in your life? Could you be honest and direct with them?
01:13:08All right, again, I'm real sorry for this. If you want to do the role play before you
01:13:11talk to your mom, I'm happy to schedule that at your convenience. And I really do
01:13:15appreciate your time today. And I look forward to our next conversation. You're a really
01:13:20great guy to chat with this stuff about, and I really do appreciate your time.
01:13:24Appreciate your stuff. You have a good day.
01:13:26Thanks, man. Bye-bye.
01:13:27Thanks.