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00:00Thank you for joining us today. I'm Police and Crime Commissioner Alison Hernandez. I'm just
00:04going to ask you a few questions about the appointment of your interim Chief Constable.
00:09I understand that he was in Dorset Police for nine years before he retired in 2021.
00:15Can you tell me what process you used to appoint him?
00:19Well, it was a very fast-paced process, I can tell you that. So one of the things that we've
00:24done is I identified a number of candidates that would potentially be available working
00:30with His Majesty's Inspectorate at Constabulary, the College of Policing and anybody else that I
00:35knew that might know someone. Then we actually selected the right person to do an interview,
00:42which is my preferred candidate, which was James. We carried out an interview with a
00:47representative from His Majesty's Inspectorate at Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Service,
00:52the College of Policing. We also had a representative from the Police and Crime
00:55Panel, which is the people who scrutinise me. We also had an independent person,
01:00and that was the Chief Executive of Cornwall Council. So then we had a range of questions
01:04that we have to ask on the framework that you do interviews for, for policing, that we get from the
01:09College of Policing. And he passed that interview and he started immediately.
01:14Okay, you say he was your preferred candidate. Why was that? What did you know about him before?
01:19Fundamentally, one of the things I know about this organisation of Devon and Cornwall Police is we've
01:25got performance challenges there. It's been two years now in engage with His Majesty's Inspectorate
01:31and I needed someone who could come in who has got experience of being a Chief Constable,
01:36that wasn't stepping up and having to learn new things. I need someone who can build the
01:41confidence of the Chief Inspector at His Majesty's Inspectorate as well, that they believe the
01:46performance that's going to happen. And I needed to make sure that the public felt confident that
01:52we've got a leader here, so they don't think that there's anything that's different. They can still
01:56come and report to the police, they can still ring the police, that the police officers are
01:59doing their job day to day. So there's quite a range of things to consider in terms of my choice.
02:05And I've also personally worked with James before. So when he was Chief Constable of Dorset,
02:10he was the deputy here for a short period of time, and he turned around the performance on
02:15crime recording within six months. So I know that he's a very grippy Chief Constable.
02:21You say crime recording there, I mean that is one of the things that the police, Devon & Cornwall Police,
02:26are still in special measures for recording of crime. They've come out for most other things.
02:31So was that again a reason why you appointed him?
02:34Well exactly. I think the challenge we've had with two years we've been
02:39monitored by His Majesty's Inspectorate in terms of the crime recording challenge. And like I said
02:44when we had an identification of the problem earlier on before, this is many years ago,
02:50James was able to turn that around quite quickly. Six months and we were reaching good performance.
02:54So with two years we've been waiting now. So I knew we needed someone that could really drive
02:59that improvement quickly and he is the right man for the job.
03:02You say it's interim. How long is interim? What's on his contract?
03:07Well I've had conversations with him about potentially a year. I mean I don't know how
03:12long the Independent Office of Police Conduct is going to take to investigate
03:16either the acting Chief Constable's allegations or the substantive Chief Constable's allegations.
03:23So at the moment I've suggested it could be a few months, it could be a year, it could be 18 months.
03:29So we've had a conversation about potential length of time. But we've got a break clause
03:34so on either side I can inform him of what's happening if we're able to bring
03:39the substantive Chief Constable back or not.
03:41Can you tell me where we are with that process with the Chief Constable Will Kerr firstly?
03:46So these all get a bit complicated don't they? Because there's a lot of bodies involved in
03:50the investigation processes of Chief Constables and we've got two separate ones at the moment.
03:55They're not linked at all in any way, just to reassure you. They're completely separate,
03:59although I don't know if that's actually worse. Fundamentally it's just not great having two
04:04suspended. The substantive Chief Constable that's been investigated by Northern Ireland,
04:09it is still with Northern Ireland. At the moment it's with the Public Prosecution Service
04:13to decide whether there is a criminal charge against that individual or not. Now it's been
04:18taking an awful long time to decide if someone needs to be arrested and actually charged with
04:23it and convicted of something. Still waiting on that at the moment. I've written to the Home
04:28Secretary. She hasn't replied yet. I did that two weeks ago, asking for her to reach out to the
04:33Minister of Northern Ireland to see if she can add any pressure to try and speed up what's
04:37happening on that side. In terms of the recent suspension of the Acting Chief Constable,
04:43the indicative time frame I've been given by the Independent Office of Police Conduct,
04:48who investigates it, was nought to three months. So that could be speedy, but I can't guarantee
04:54that. We have to just wait and see what happens with that one. Regarding the cost to the taxpayer
05:01in all of this, we're talking three salaries here now, aren't we? We are. It's not great at all,
05:06is it, to be in this position. But fundamentally, it'd be the same if you got suspended in your job
05:10right now, that you would still be on full pay until an investigation had concluded. So it's
05:15no different than most people in any normal job in any industry. But it is a lot of money, isn't
05:20it? I mean, the salaries of the Chief Constable, the Acting Chief Constable, we're talking around
05:25£180,000 here. If you add into that various national insurance contributions, pensions,
05:32you could be getting up to a quarter of a million on each of those. So that is quite a lot of money
05:39that is coming out of taxpayers, isn't it? It is, and it's going to come out of them either
05:44in general taxation through the policing grant or through the council tax that they already pay an
05:49increase in since I've been in office. So that's why I'm focused on how we can try and speed up
05:53the investigations. A lot of it at the moment I've put onto the doorstep of the Home Secretary.
05:58She hasn't replied yet after two weeks of me asking. And in particular, I've asked if we can
06:03apply for a special grant because of the unusual circumstances of having to have three Chief
06:10Constables employed. So I have asked for some exceptional circumstances from the Home Secretary.
06:15I mean, it's general taxation. It's still all of our money at the end of the day. But I'm trying
06:19to ease the burden for the Devon and Cornwall Police because fundamentally it's not their fault
06:23that they're in this situation. And ease the burden on the local taxpayer, I assume,
06:28because in the eyes of Devon and Cornwall public, then that might lessen the blow slightly
06:33if it's coming out of central funds? Well, I think fundamentally it's not fair when the
06:38investigating bodies for both of the suspended Chief Constables are national or international
06:43bodies that I have no control over, but the government does have some. So it's up to the
06:48government to try and speed up and make swift those investigations. And therefore, because
06:52they're responsible for the bodies that actually deliver those investigations, that's why I'm
06:57asking for some money. And how are the staff in all of this? I mean, this must have affected the
07:03morale of the staff. I mean, they're now seeing four Chief Constables in a couple of years. I mean,
07:07how is that affecting everyone? Well, I think fundamentally, every day, police officers and
07:12staff will get up and come into work and carry out their job as best as they can with the tools
07:16that they've got and the knowledge that they have. And they will do that day in and day out,
07:20and they'll do that 24-7. So let's just thank those that are going to be working over Christmas
07:24and New Year when some of us will be taking some downtime and not being able to, not having to work
07:30those hours. But fundamentally, they will get on and do it. The issue where it'll really start to
07:35affect those individuals is when the organisation starts to slow down even more, and they can feel
07:41that the organisation isn't on their side, and the organisation is drifting. And that's what we
07:46can't afford to have. So this is about having a bit of grip on performance, make sure that officers
07:50know what is important every day when they do come in. But fundamentally, they'll get on with
07:55the job regardless. They don't meet the Chief Constable every day when they come to work.
07:59They come in and they deal with our communities, and that's what they continue to do.
08:03What has the new Chief Constable done already to get himself familiar with people and look like
08:10he's going to do the job properly? Well, we did quite an unusual thing because we wanted to do
08:15this quite hastily. And as long as he passed his interview on the Friday when we did it,
08:19he was attested immediately after. Then he started that evening, and he worked over the weekend. So
08:25he's already went to Bodmin, Plymouth and Exeter over the weekend. He started in the control room
08:30in Exeter on Monday morning at 6am. He's been to all the tasking meetings. He has been very much
08:37trying to reassure people, but he said he's had a very warm welcome. Nobody has given him any snub
08:44or grief. They've been very welcoming towards him, and I hope that he'll get a real feel of
08:49what's going on in the organisation so he can drive it forward over the coming months.
08:53I attend the Police and Crime Panel meetings, and over various months, there's been pressure
09:01over all the things that have happened, and you've said yourself that you've had to step in
09:06with the leadership. I mean, how much now will you have to step in more? Do you think the Chief
09:11Constable is going to actually do the job properly, and you're not going to have to spend so
09:16much time helping out with the leadership? I think fundamentally at this point, we actually have
09:21somebody who is the Chief Constable. He's not acting. He is the Chief Constable, and he's an
09:25experienced Chief Constable. So I know I can leave him to it, largely. The point is that he communicates
09:31with me regularly already, and that's why I've chosen someone like Mr Vaughan, because he is
09:36somebody who communicates with the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner, and that is fundamental in
09:41building my confidence back into the force. So I think for me, Police and Crime Panel has been a
09:47tricky last year, and we've got the budget coming up at the end of January, and I'm sure I'm going
09:52to be asked difficult questions about paying for three Chief Constables as well, and we'll need to
09:56make sure that the Police and Crime Panel understand how we're funding that, and what we're doing to
10:01ask government as well. Do you think you'll be asking for more money then under the budget? Well,
10:06you've got to remember at the moment, we've just got the settlement today from the government,
10:10and my team are poring over the details to see what that entails. We've got National Insurance
10:15rises. We're just double checking whether or not it's fully covered by the government,
10:19the National Insurance rise that they've done for everybody else. As you know, the employer's
10:23National Insurance rise. We've got pay increments that happen every year, and we've also had pay
10:28rises that have happened above and beyond what was expected. So we're just checking if it covers
10:34all of those bases. So at the moment, we've been given the flexibility to do up to £14
10:40as an increase on the precept for the council tax, and fundamentally there's been some ring-fenced
10:46funding that I've been alerted to of £2.3 million for neighbourhood policing for Devon and Cornwall
10:52in the budget, but I don't know the full criteria of that, whether that's police community support
10:56officers, neighbourhood police officers, until more detail of that comes through. We've only
11:01had the headlines today. So at the moment, I'm confident that we won't be absolutely on our
11:08knees, but I need to work out in terms of the council tax increase, what does that actually
11:13look like? And that's what I'll be spending my Christmas doing in readiness to the panel,
11:18which is at the end of January.