Minister Botchorishvili emphasized peaceful reconciliation for Georgia's territorial integrity, addressed EU membership aspirations, and responded to recent protests and criticism.
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00:00Georgia's prospects of becoming a member of the EU are bleaker than ever.
00:13The conflict between a pro-European public and a government that sometimes seems to be
00:18leaning towards Russia is threatening to escalate.
00:22So what's next?
00:23I spoke to Georgia's new foreign minister, Maka Bochorishvili, for the Europe Conversation.
00:32Welcome to the program, Minister. It's great to have you on.
00:35Hello. Thank you for inviting. Thank you for your interest.
00:38Now, you have been in office just for a few weeks. What are your first impressions?
00:44Well, first days in the office, not easy period for Georgia.
00:49We have plenty of challenges that we face, and of course, we have to handle this situation.
00:57I had a couple of possibilities to meet my colleagues, and we need quite a work to ensure
01:06that Georgia is represented and presented to the entire world from the correct angle.
01:14Now, as we speak, roughly 20% of Georgia's territory is still occupied by Russia.
01:21Now, at the OSC Ministerial Council in Malta just a few days ago, you called Russia's war in Ukraine
01:29a continuation of its aggressive actions in Georgia. How do you want to get these territories back?
01:36Well, that is not an easy issue. Since our independence, we face this conflict with Russia
01:43and 20% of Georgia's territories are still occupied, and we have military presence of
01:49Russia there. That makes Georgia extremely vulnerable when it comes to security challenges
01:55and facing that. This is not an easy task, but our policy is very clear that we consider
02:04restoration of Georgia's territorial integrity only through a peaceful way,
02:08and that can be a reconciliation policy. That same meeting in Malta was also attended
02:15by your Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov. Did you speak to him?
02:21We don't have diplomatic relations with Russia since 2008 after Russia's invasion of Georgia,
02:29and we don't have communication and official channels of communication with Russian
02:36counterparts. So, this is not the case in this case as well. We don't have communication.
02:44Now, one would think that Georgia and Ukraine are on the same side when it comes to Russia,
02:51yet Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, has accused the Georgian Dream Party of pushing
02:58Georgia towards dependence on Russia. What's your reaction?
03:03Well, we hear that speculations that I can call these claims only speculations about Georgia.
03:11Georgian Dream is in power for 12 years now, and in this period, nobody can find anything
03:19that this government has done in favor of Russia. But today, it is very popular to
03:25divide the world into white and black, and if somebody wants to make an easy negative impression
03:33about somebody, it is easier to claim that somebody is pro-Russian or pro-Putin.
03:40Unfortunately, that is the case, although Georgia has very clear policy when it comes
03:46to supporting Ukraine. Let's talk about what happened over the past few weeks in Georgia,
03:52and the reason why Georgia was in the international headlines.
03:57Your government's decision to suspend Georgia's EU membership bid triggered protests in Tbilisi
04:03and elsewhere, during which over 300 protesters were arrested and brutally beaten by police.
04:10Now, according to Georgia's public defender, 80% of those who were detained reported deliberate
04:18punitive violence. Several opposition leaders were also arrested. Things that were
04:24severely criticized by the EU, European governments, and the United States.
04:30What do you tell these governments in response?
04:33First of all, that is very wrong interpretation of Georgian government's decision. We have not
04:39suspended European integration process. We have not suspended negotiations because
04:46negotiations on Georgia's membership into the European Union has not started yet,
04:51because there is no EU decision on this topic. When it comes to reaction from Georgian society
04:59or protests in the streets of Tbilisi, of course, everybody has rights to protests,
05:05but rights to peaceful protests. Unfortunately, I have to say that we cannot really call these
05:13protests necessarily peaceful, because the violent groups that were acting with the fireworks,
05:20and their target was police forces, and we have around 200 policemen injured, and some of them
05:28really received very serious injuries. It is very hard to say that it is peaceful protest.
05:36But on the other hand, if there is anything, when we see that police is exceeding its limits of
05:45reaction, of course, there should be reaction from relevant bodies. And if we condemn, of course,
05:52violence should be condemned, but it should be condemned from both sides and not just, you know,
05:57one-sided.
05:58So the relationship between the EU and Georgia is difficult at the moment. The accession process
06:07had already been stopped in the summer by the European Council in reaction to Georgia's
06:12controversial foreign influence law. The impression in Brussels was that Georgia is kind of
06:19turning away from Europe and tilting towards Moscow. What is the path forward now?
06:29Well, first of all, we have to trust each other. Georgia's European bid is a very serious decision.
06:36When we applied for EU membership, it was not a joke. But unfortunately, that very topic
06:43always is kind of subject for speculations, and the same is happening all the time.
06:50How European integration can be linked to transparency law, we call this law transparency,
06:58because this is only about transparency of foreign funds in Georgia. And we had very clear
07:06explanation for this legislation. It was nothing against civil society organizations or their work.
07:13It was about just making clear who is funding what in Georgia and to have kind of preventive
07:21mechanism for influence, negative, I would say, foreign influence. So this is very important
07:29topic for Georgia's stable democratic development. And that is something that we are communicating
07:36to our European partners. Numerous polls in Georgia show that the Georgian public is largely
07:45in favor of EU membership, even NATO membership. Now, Georgian Dream repeatedly states that it
07:53supports these aspirations, yet relations with both EU and NATO have deteriorated rapidly, largely
08:02due to decisions and actions by Georgian Dream. Why should the Georgian public believe Georgian
08:09Dream when it says it supports their aspirations, when the party's actions seem to indicate otherwise?
08:17Facts. You need to judge according facts and look at the facts. And this government
08:24made Georgia frontrunner when it comes to implementation of reforms and positioning
08:31Georgia as well advanced when it comes to association with the European Union.
08:38This is also the same government that was participating to different EU-led
08:47missions, not because we had any interest in Central Africa or anywhere else. Only interest
08:53for us was and is to show our commitment when it comes to shared values and when it comes
09:00to be together with our European partners. Why is it then that relations between the European
09:08Union and Georgia have deteriorated? Well, that is a good question. What is behind all that and
09:14why Georgia became quite a subject of criticism. But this is not new and it's not started yesterday.
09:24If you look back, 2020 is kind of turning point when this kind of criticism started against
09:34Georgia. And 2022 was very important date, I would say, when Russia invaded into Ukraine and
09:43the security challenges increased vis-a-vis Georgia. And we were criticized for not
09:51imposing sanctions on Russia and we were criticized for different things.
09:56But unfortunately, there is not that
10:02fair look at the Georgia's situation when it comes to countering security challenges and
10:11ensuring peace and stability in the country, because there is no other that vulnerable
10:17country in Europe as Georgia is today. I guess the fundamental question is this.
10:24Does Georgia really want to be an EU member and why? Well, it has different reasons. And
10:32first is emotional connection with European Europe, I would say. And it goes back to history
10:41and it goes back to Georgians, how Georgians feel and Georgians identity. And that is very
10:48much emotional connection with European Union. And that's why also vast majority of Georgians
10:56are supporting European integration. Another is very practical reason why we want to be part of
11:04the European Union because of quite complicated geography and because of our intention to be part
11:12of the Union, which is, I would say, the best Union today, best possible option that we may have
11:22in the world in terms of human rights, in terms of economic development and
11:28many other things where you would be wishing to place your country. And it will require some
11:37efforts because this relationship is not in the best shape today. I will not lie. I will not be
11:43naive. But I believe that it is possible and it is doable. All right. Thank you very much,
11:50Minister, for a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much for your questions.