MEDI1TV Afrique : Égalité hommes-femmes : ce qu'en pensent les Marocains - 08/11/2024
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00:00Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Question d'Actu.
00:16The High Commissioner of the Plan is drafting a state of affairs for the Moroccans' perceptions
00:20of equality between men and women.
00:22The results are revealing.
00:25Nearly 6 out of 10 Moroccans believe that gender equality is a far-fetched ideal.
00:32This perception is particularly marked in rural areas.
00:36Nearly 65% of respondents believe that there is no equality,
00:41while this figure drops to 52.4% in urban areas.
00:46According to the HCP, more than 63% of women believe that there is no gender equality in Morocco.
00:54This is a noticeable shift, also according to the generations of perceptions influenced by social norms,
01:00which we will discuss tonight with my guests here.
01:05Present, Mr. Abdelatef Komat, you are the president of the FEM network
01:10and head of the Faculty of Juridical, Economic and Social Sciences of Casablanca.
01:14Thank you for being with us tonight.
01:16Thank you for the invitation.
01:17It's a pleasure to have you with us.
01:18Also with us, Mrs. Karima Rahanim, you are the president of the International Center for Diplomacy.
01:24Thank you for joining us.
01:25Thank you, Madam, for the invitation.
01:27We are going to discuss this HCP survey.
01:316 out of 10 Moroccans believe that there is no gender equality.
01:37According to this survey, women are more likely to feel this observation.
01:44Mrs. Rahanim, what do you think?
01:47I think this feeling is very, very normal, due to several reasons.
01:53But before talking about the reasons, I would like to note that Morocco,
01:58in the last two decades, has made a very important step towards equality,
02:03both at the constitutional, legislative and political level,
02:06but also at the level of strengthening conventional practice
02:11through the adoption and ratification of international conventions
02:15or authoritative protocols in this regard.
02:18However, the question of equality remains problematic,
02:23especially at the procedural level, sometimes limited by decree of application,
02:28sometimes by mentalities, perceptions, prejudices, cultures, customs,
02:36especially perceptions related to gender, and also at the practical level.
02:41So it is very normal that a woman, when she does not have, for example,
02:47access to services at the practical level, on the ground,
02:51it is quite normal that she sometimes feels discrimination,
02:55whether she wants it or not.
02:57And I would say that this problem of inequalities is not a Moroccan problem,
03:02it is a global problem.
03:03So if you look at the latest World Report on Inequalities,
03:07the report revealed that the world needs today more than 100 years
03:13to achieve parity, and it needs five generations.
03:18So I think that despite the very advanced legal arsenal,
03:24I think the problem lies at the practical level.
03:28So you said it, the world needs a century to move towards this parity.
03:37Mr. Komat, what do you think of these figures of 6 Moroccans out of 10
03:43who think that we are far from equality?
03:48This observation is there, it is a reality that many Moroccans live.
03:53Mrs. Ranem explained it well.
03:55There is a legal arsenal that has been established,
03:57several efforts have been put in place in Morocco
04:00to achieve or go towards this equality between men and women.
04:05But the problem is at the level of application on the ground.
04:08Why are these rules, these laws that have been established,
04:12not respected or not applied?
04:15In fact, it is true that there is an advance on the legal level,
04:19on the legislative level.
04:22The question of application is essentially linked
04:25to sociological dimensions, to cultural dimensions.
04:29It is not enough to have a law to transform it into an application on the ground
04:34if there is an environment that, for one reason or another,
04:38does not encourage, does not ensure that this law is applied.
04:42And besides, this is what came out of this survey.
04:45I remind you that it is a survey of perception.
04:47When we evoke perception, it is a personal opinion
04:50that can, in fact, in some cases, be subjective.
04:53It is different from a field study that relates a field reality.
04:59Here, it is a perception, that is to say, an opinion of people,
05:03how they see things.
05:05So already, in my opinion, the fact of talking about 6 people out of 10
05:12is already, in my opinion, a good thing.
05:16Perhaps we should look at the figure upside down
05:19to say that 40% see that we are in equality.
05:22But it is already a lot.
05:23Because, indeed, as Mrs. Van Am said, it is a global problem.
05:28So it is true that we see it in Morocco, of course,
05:31not a little more, but more than in more advanced countries.
05:35If we look at, for example, the rate of activity of women,
05:37which today is around 20% in Morocco,
05:40it is, in fact, at rates of 60-70% in advanced countries.
05:45So there is a lot to be done to go towards equality
05:49on the economic level, on the political level,
05:51at the level of other responsibilities.
05:54So there is still a lot to be done.
05:56But if it is, as you said, to see what the causes are,
06:01if there is an environment, I would say, on the political level,
06:05there is nothing to refer to, especially to royal orientations,
06:09to royal discourses, which, for 25 years,
06:11His Majesty has always called for the status of women to advance
06:15on the legal level.
06:17In fact, there is the Mudouana of 2004,
06:19and then we are waiting for the Mudouana of 2024.
06:22And then there were also different orientations in that direction.
06:26So on the political level, on the legal level,
06:28I would say things are moving forward.
06:30Now there are, I would say, perhaps two areas to insist on.
06:34It is, of course, the cultural dimension,
06:37the cultural dimension, which remains very present.
06:40And then there is also the economic dimension.
06:42So we will come back to this economic area a little later in this show.
06:46But before addressing this area,
06:47I would like us to stay on the cultural area that you have addressed.
06:52There is this conformity to social norms,
06:54and then this culture that is quite present.
06:56Moreover, the HECP speaks of inequalities
06:59that are attributed to inherited traditions.
07:0258% in the urban environment, 65% in the rural environment.
07:05Earlier, you did well to nuance when you spoke of perceptions.
07:09Is it today that it is more about the mentalities that need to be changed?
07:13Is it a question of mentality, of culture, of tradition, of cultural heritage?
07:17It is essentially that, in fact, today.
07:21Besides, what I want to highlight is that, contrary to what one might think,
07:26it is not only a question that concerns women.
07:30It is a societal question because, in the end,
07:33even the difference between men and women,
07:36it is true that it is a little more pronounced when we ask for women's opinion,
07:41but there is not a very big difference because it is practically shared,
07:45both by men and by women.
07:47When we evoke the different questions,
07:50we find that men also share the same opinion.
07:54So it is a question of society.
07:56And when we evoke the questions of society,
07:58it is also a question of mentality.
08:00So, the mentalities, in fact, it takes time to transform them.
08:05It is not more difficult than to transform the mindset.
08:08The mentalities, of course, are made through education,
08:12through the media, through political parties, through unions,
08:18through all the components of society,
08:21should be one of the priority issues in our country.
08:25Because today, moreover, it is shared.
08:28The woman should play the role that belongs to her.
08:32Of course, on the social level, she remains the core of the family.
08:37And so, the more the woman is educated, the more the woman is active,
08:41the more it is to the advantage of family cohesion and, of course, of society,
08:45but also on the economic level.
08:47Today, Morocco has a huge lack to gain
08:51by the underutilization or under-occupation of the woman.
08:55We lose points of growth,
08:57we lose, in fact, everything that could bring the woman as added value.
09:01Because the woman has her own ideas,
09:04her own ideas that could enrich the productive tissue
09:07and, I would say, innovation in our country.
09:10So that is why it is essentially a work to do on the mentalities.
09:16We are in a good dynamic
09:18and time will play in favor of the positive evolution of this issue.
09:24We are in a good dynamic.
09:26We need time.
09:28Mrs. Rannemeyer, Mr. Komat, who spoke of this economic aspect, which is important,
09:31a lack to be gained.
09:32Today, if there were more active women,
09:36during an investigation, at least last year, of the HCP,
09:38we were talking about about 20% of active women,
09:41which is more than 70%, you said it earlier,
09:44of women who do not work.
09:46So a huge lack to be gained for the national economy.
09:50And this is an observation that we see a little bit everywhere in the world,
09:54this equality of employment,
09:57so facing the equality of employment, the equality of wages.
10:00How to promote this gender equality in the professional environment today?
10:07In fact, I wanted to go back to what Mr. Levoyen said
10:11about the cultural dimension, because it is important.
10:14It is transversal in all sectors.
10:17Because we say that the legal aspect is very important,
10:22procedural legal, regulatory, it is very important.
10:27But the problem here lies in the organizational culture.
10:32If we want to promote professional equality,
10:34we must change the organizational culture
10:37within the public sector, within the private sector,
10:40within civil society organizations, etc.
10:43So I think that in parallel with the advancement of the legal arsenal,
10:49with public policies, with sectoral strategies and programs,
10:55we must work on the moralization of public life
10:59to effectively change the mentality.
11:01And this is a long fight, because there is a big gap
11:04between what is in public policies and what is on the ground.
11:08So it requires a considerable effort
11:11and an effort in synergy with all the components of society.
11:16As Mr. Levoyen said, it is the political parties,
11:20it is the organization of civil society,
11:22it is the core family of society.
11:25And at the professional level,
11:28today I think we have just celebrated
11:32the World Day for Professional and Wage Equality,
11:35there is still discrimination,
11:37there is still, at the level of wages,
11:39there is still access to decision-making positions,
11:42despite the legible efforts that have been made
11:44and the measures taken by the government,
11:47public institutions and even private sector initiatives,
11:51there is still a problem of access.
11:53A problem of access linked to persistent mentalities,
11:59to perceptions, to prejudices,
12:01and also linked to the woman herself.
12:05So in the need to further strengthen the leadership of the woman
12:11so that she can have access to decision-making positions,
12:14but not only have access to decision-making positions,
12:17but be influential and that her participation can have a real impact.
12:27A real impact, an added value at the level of the economy,
12:30as Mr. Komat said.
12:32Mr. Komat, to stay on what you say,
12:34there are figures from the HCP,
12:36always according to these figures on perception,
12:38so Moroccans who want to be very positive
12:41in relation to the integration of the woman,
12:43at least to a better representation of the woman
12:47in key positions at the level of several sectors.
12:51We can talk today, at least in Morocco,
12:53of a real political will to go towards a better representation of women.
13:00In fact, if we compare the figures
13:03between the adoption of the Constitution in 2011 until today,
13:07there is certainly a clear improvement,
13:10there is an evolution because there is a political will.
13:13But of course, this political will is limited by several obstacles,
13:17in particular cultural obstacles,
13:20mentalities that hinder the evolution of this participation,
13:27of the effectiveness of the participation,
13:30whether political or civic or even professional, of women.
13:34If we look at the figures, the percentage of women
13:38at the level of the House of Representatives,
13:41the House of Councilors today,
13:43the rate of women ministers
13:45and the rate of feminization,
13:49which is 36% at the level of the public function,
13:55we see that there is progress.
13:57However, I think that today we must evaluate
14:02this effectiveness of participation or feminization in the sectors
14:08to advance the quality of participation,
14:13whether this participation is translated
14:19at the level of decision-making,
14:21at the level of the measures taken by the women decision-makers,
14:24at the level of their decisions, of their initiatives,
14:28of the measures taken and also of the impact
14:31that they can create on the daily lives of women.
14:34Because there is always a gap between politics,
14:38legislation and the real impact on the field.
14:41So I think that today we really need to have an evaluation
14:46to evaluate the quality of participation.
14:50The last thing I wanted to say is about organizational culture.
14:56Today, we have a legal arsenal, we have procedures,
14:59we have law reviews such as quotas,
15:02either at the professional level or at the political level.
15:06Today, we must see women in decision-making positions,
15:10in political offices, in political parties,
15:12by conviction of organizational culture
15:16and not because it is an obligation by law.
15:19In any case, this is the case today.
15:21In any case, I hope so.
15:22We are going down this path.
15:25Women who take responsibility today,
15:27women leaders and who have confidence in themselves.
15:29As you said earlier, having this perception of oneself as a woman,
15:32that we can do several things and therefore have positions of responsibility.
15:37Mr. Komat, I call on your university cap as dean.
15:45What role does education play today in the emancipation of women,
15:51of men and in the change of these mentalities today?
15:54So, precisely, education came out practically like the node
15:59at the level of this investigation, of this study by the RSCP.
16:03It is at the heart of these dynamics because,
16:07indeed, it is through education.
16:09When we talk about education, it is not only academic.
16:11Of course, the university, at a certain stage, will play, must play its role.
16:16But when we mention education, it is from pre-school,
16:19from elementary school, high school, high school.
16:22It starts very young.
16:23Very young.
16:24Because, in fact, we talked earlier about the mentality,
16:26the mindset that must be built in such a way that,
16:31first of all, the woman has this spirit of taking initiative
16:35and this will of a certain economic autonomy
16:38that would go through entrepreneurship, through professional insertion, etc.
16:42All this is acquired through education.
16:45So, of course, there is also the relationship between men and women,
16:48at the family level, but also at the school level.
16:51In fact, we must not have this, precisely, we are talking about culture,
16:56this superiority, sometimes, of the boy's consideration
17:00in relation to the girl, in terms of responsibility,
17:03at the family level, but also at the school level.
17:08And this means that, indeed, education, and moreover,
17:11this is what the study reveals, practically,
17:13it is largely classified at the level of priorities.
17:16Because the study also tried to treat what the priorities are.
17:20So, practically, 65% is devoted to education.
17:25So, today, society is aware that education has a central role.
17:29So, of course, when we arrive at the university,
17:32maybe a little, it is a contrast,
17:35it is that today, practically, we have 50% of the university population
17:40is female, 50%.
17:42And at the level of excellence, it is practically, I would say,
17:45between 70 and 80%.
17:47This means that today, practically, the majors of the different promotions
17:50are women or girls.
17:53And it is at this level that this, I would say,
17:55transposition of this excellence at the professional level,
18:00either professional insertion, or female entrepreneurship,
18:03or taking on other responsibilities, there is a gap.
18:07There is a gap.
18:08Is it a matter of time?
18:10Certainly, time will play in favor of this promotion.
18:13But it is beyond time.
18:16We need more, I would say, in fact, action, in fact, of society,
18:22of the components, of the actors of society,
18:24but also of the woman herself.
18:25When you talk about action, you talk about awareness,
18:28do you talk about that moment when, after the studies,
18:32the woman gets married and finds herself facing new family responsibilities
18:36that perhaps hinder this ambition to go beyond?
18:39In fact, society should organize itself in such a way
18:42that the fact that the woman gets married and has children
18:45is not a blockade so that it continues its economic flourishing.
18:50We know today what is happening in other countries.
18:53In fact, the woman is accompanied, especially at the level of nursery,
18:57you know that practically today, nurseries in the professional environment
19:00are systematized at the level of structures in Europe,
19:03in developed countries, even in emerging countries,
19:06in fact, especially at the level of development of Morocco.
19:09Morocco has begun to become aware of this.
19:12There are many organizations that have begun to set up nurseries,
19:15but it will be necessary to generalize them so that it is no longer a handicap.
19:21And then, of course, the whole environment,
19:23the whole environment at the level of mobility,
19:26at the level of some adaptations of working hours,
19:29there is actually a whole arsenal, you mentioned organizational culture,
19:33not only at the level of promotion in terms of management,
19:36but also so that the woman and the continuation of the economic action of the woman
19:42is an organizational concern.
19:44And companies and administrations organize themselves
19:47so that they can prepare a suitable framework
19:50so that the woman can continue her dynamism,
19:53even if she is married, even if she has children.
19:55Madame Rann, so a whole adjustment that must be made,
19:58according to the words of Mr. Komat, at the organizational level,
20:01always at the level, especially professional, of the life of the woman.
20:05Yes, I would like to add a very important thing.
20:10Today, 17% of women are family leaders.
20:15So it's a reality.
20:17So we see women today, practically in all sectors,
20:20who have been perceived as sectors reserved for men.
20:25So the woman has to work at home and outside,
20:30which puts an overload on this woman.
20:34And unfortunately, domestic work is not yet valued.
20:38But as Mr. Le Doyen said,
20:41there are many measures that have been taken
20:44to alleviate this overload for the woman,
20:47so that she can finish her studies,
20:50do her work in a productive and effective way,
20:55to fully participate in the Moroccan economy.
20:59And of course, there are strategies for reconciliation
21:02between family and professional life of women family leaders.
21:06It's very important.
21:07However, I always come back to the problem of mentality.
21:11Today, we are faced with mentalities
21:14who do not always believe that the management of the home
21:20is a shared responsibility between man and woman.
21:23Because this reconciliation is very important
21:27for the fulfillment of the woman, for her health,
21:30and for the health of the couple and the family,
21:33and for the supreme interest of the children.
21:35So it is very important to support these measures,
21:39such as the paternity leave and other measures,
21:42through an awareness campaign
21:45to reinforce responsible parenting, positive masculinity,
21:50and change mentalities to have concrete measures on the ground.
21:55You mentioned a term that is quite strong,
21:58that of overload.
22:00To alleviate this overload,
22:02at least on the back of the woman,
22:07a balance between family life and professional life.
22:09Mr. Komat, what role does man play today
22:12in his perception of things
22:15and in the support he could have
22:17to reach more family balance between man and woman?
22:24Indeed, you mentioned Réseau Femmes.
22:27Réseau Femmes is a federation
22:29that brings together several associations
22:30that work on the economic development of women.
22:33And as part of a regional tour,
22:35we tried to understand the barriers
22:39that would limit the economic activity of women.
22:45There is, it is true, this question of position sometimes,
22:49and it is part of the culture of man.
22:52He is responsible for the family,
22:54he is the one who has to take care of his wife, etc.
22:57And that is why,
22:59when we talk about awareness,
23:02when we talk about communication,
23:04it is about passing on the message
23:06that the fact that women help to consolidate,
23:10in particular, the means of the family, etc.,
23:12it is to the advantage of the family,
23:14it is to the advantage of man.
23:16And that is why I said earlier
23:18that what reassured me,
23:22or left me confident about the future,
23:25is that when we asked this question
23:27about inequalities between women and men,
23:29I would say the point of view
23:31or the answers are not quite different.
23:34There is a sharing of men and women
23:37who are in these situations of inequality.
23:40And even in terms of opinion, in terms of proposals,
23:43in fact, men make proposals for things to move forward.
23:48I believe that it is a question of time
23:52and a question of awareness and communication.
23:56You mentioned the question of domestic work,
24:00which has come out, in fact,
24:02almost 87%,
24:04which is practically the most important element
24:08that today, I would say,
24:11slows down, according to the interviewees,
24:14this, I would say, progress towards equality.
24:17We still consider that the responsibility of the family
24:21is the responsibility of the woman.
24:24So work.
24:25Whereas, in fact, we estimate,
24:27and that too, I would say, is positive,
24:29that the area of education, that the area of access to health,
24:33there is practically no difference.
24:35So the woman today has the possibility of access to education.
24:39So, of course, there is this fundamental question
24:42of school abundance,
24:43which is much more pronounced at the level of girls,
24:45especially in rural areas.
24:47And that's what explains today, I would say,
24:50this figure, which is practically more than 300,000
24:54school abundance every year,
24:56especially in rural areas.
24:58More awareness, therefore, to conclude your remarks.
25:01Thank you, Mr. Latif Kobat.
25:03I remind you that you are the President of RÉZOFEM
25:05and Director of the Faculty of Economic,
25:07Social and Juridical Sciences of Casablanca.
25:09Thank you, Mrs. Karim Arhanem.
25:11I remind you that you are President
25:13of the International Center for Diplomacy.
25:15It is a pleasure to have you with us
25:17to talk about this important subject.
25:19Tonight, it's the end of the news.
25:22Thank you for your loyalty.
25:24See you tomorrow.