For the last eight months, David Cogen has been living a double life. By day: a YouTuber and creator, the face of the TheUnlockr channel, reviewing phones and testing ebikes and explaining how food smokers really work. By night and morning and every single other available in-between moment: a coffee shop entrepreneur, working to get a Brooklyn spot called Coffee Check up and running. In this episode, the second in the two-part miniseries that we’re calling How To Make It In The Future, Cogen tells the story of how a YouTuber becomes a coffee shop owner — and how to bring those two things together without ruining them both.
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TechTranscript
00:00Welcome to The Verge cast, the flagship podcast
00:02of Robot Baristas.
00:04I'm your friend David Pierce,
00:05and I am sitting here doing cold brew research.
00:08So about a year ago, I started making overnight oats a lot.
00:11I really liked the idea of being able to,
00:13right before I go to bed,
00:14basically make my breakfast, take it in the fridge,
00:16and then it's ready for me when I get up in the morning.
00:18It's really helpful having a kid around in the house
00:21who also needs breakfast and likes to just run in circles
00:23starting at 5 a.m., but it also just feels nice.
00:26It's like one less decision I have to make
00:28when I first wake up in the morning.
00:29So I've started trying to do the same thing
00:31with coffee, making cold brew.
00:32I drink iced coffee of some kind,
00:34basically 365 days a year,
00:36but I also like the idea of being able
00:39to do it the night before and then wake up
00:41and the thing is ready for me
00:42and I just pour it and start the day.
00:44That seems nicer than what I do now,
00:46which is like a 10-minute process
00:47of weighing things on a scale
00:50and gently pouring in concentric circles.
00:53It's just too much.
00:54But boy, did I not realize how deep
00:58the rabbit hole of cold brew is.
01:00The ratios, the amount of time you're supposed to do it for,
01:03the thing you put the cold brew in,
01:06it's supposed to be really simple.
01:07You put in beans, you pour in water,
01:10the end, time happens and then you have coffee.
01:14Nope, turns out like all coffee things,
01:16it is super complicated.
01:18But luckily for me,
01:20this is what we're doing on the Verge cast today
01:21is we're talking about coffee.
01:23For this episode, which is the second episode
01:25in our mini series that we've been calling
01:27How to Make It in the Future,
01:28I'm talking to a guy named David Kogan,
01:30who you might know as the Unlocker on YouTube.
01:33He's been a tech creator for a really long time,
01:35doing lots of reporting
01:37and lots of cool camera test videos recently
01:40and he's been a creator on YouTube since like 2009.
01:43He's been around this for a long time
01:44and very recently, he opened a coffee shop,
01:48just a full left turn pivot in his career.
01:52He's still a YouTuber, he still wants to be a creator,
01:55he's still trying to make all that work,
01:57but he also opened a coffee shop in Brooklyn.
02:00And I have a lot of questions about that.
02:01I think this question of,
02:03what does it mean to marry those two things
02:06and can you be both a small business owner
02:09and a content creator
02:10without those things blurring together?
02:14I had a really fun time talking to him
02:16and I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation too.
02:18He had a lot of thoughts about what it means to be a creator,
02:21what it means to be a coffee shop owner,
02:24how the grind of YouTube
02:26changes the way that you think about your career
02:29and what you want out of your life,
02:31why making YouTube videos and being a creator
02:34is so intoxicating in the first place.
02:36It was incredibly fun.
02:37I had a really good time hanging out with him
02:39in his coffee shop in Brooklyn.
02:42We're gonna get to all of that,
02:43but first, apparently I have to do cold brew
02:4624 hours ahead of time,
02:47so I'm gonna go do that,
02:48then I'll come back, then we'll get into it.
02:50This is the Verge cast, we'll be right back.
02:53This episode is brought to you by AWS.
02:56With the power of AWS Generative AI,
02:59teams can get relevant, fast answers to pressing questions
03:03and use data to drive real results.
03:05Power your business and generate real impact
03:08with the most experienced cloud.
03:14Welcome back.
03:15Two Thursdays ago,
03:16I took the train out to the Greenpoint neighborhood
03:19in Brooklyn to meet David Kogan at his new coffee shop.
03:23I got there about 8.30 in the morning.
03:25It would have actually been a few minutes earlier than that,
03:28except that the street the shop is on
03:30is otherwise so residential,
03:33it's just brownstones everywhere,
03:35that I assumed I was on the wrong block
03:37or had overshot and turned around.
03:39But I wasn't, I was in the right place.
03:41I found the shop with this white coffee emoji light
03:44and a green check mark emoji light on the front,
03:47and otherwise no sign whatsoever that this is a coffee shop,
03:51which means it's a very cool hipster coffee shop.
03:54That's how you know they're doing it.
03:55Found the place, went inside, and found a spot to sit.
03:59So I ordered a bacon, egg, and cheese personal pie.
04:04Not 100% sure what that means,
04:06but we're about to find out.
04:07I got a large coffee that I'm very excited to try.
04:10It looks like the coffee here is called Founder's Blend,
04:13which is extremely on brand, I approve.
04:16Now the plan is just to sit here,
04:19try to get the work done,
04:22have aggressively judgy thoughts about the Wi-Fi
04:24and all the coffee gear they're using here,
04:26and then wait for David to show up.
04:29Let's do this.
04:30I found out later, by the way,
04:32that David himself had made that pie.
04:34It was very good, one of those like hand pie size things
04:38that comes in a little personal tin.
04:40Delicious, no notes.
04:41The Wi-Fi in there was also extremely fast.
04:44There were so many outlets in the room
04:46that it actually kind of made me laugh
04:48trying to count them all.
04:49And the coffee gear was also pretty on point.
04:52I had annoyingly few complaints
04:54in my first couple of hours at Coffee Check.
04:56At about 10.30, David himself showed up.
04:59He'd been out filming for the morning,
05:01but he came in, stopped at the counter,
05:03said hi to the baristas,
05:04checked in to see how things were going,
05:06and then came over and said hi to me.
05:08He gave me a quick tour of the place,
05:09the shop in the front, the production studio in the back.
05:12We walked around the kitchen.
05:14He was very excited about an outlet thing
05:16that you could press on the counter and it would pop up.
05:18He showed me all the USB-C ports.
05:21He was very excited about that.
05:22There were a bunch of e-bikes just sitting around.
05:25There was a gigantic Samsung TV
05:26that he'd been sent to review.
05:28It all felt very familiar to me
05:30as a person who has too many gadgets and loves USB-C.
05:34And then at the end of our tour,
05:36we sat down in this huge podcast booth
05:38that he got from Finland at a huge discount
05:41in exchange for letting the company use it
05:43for occasional demos and sales tours.
05:46It's so big, they didn't have a place to put it.
05:49So his studio is now also the sales floor
05:53for this podcast booth.
05:55It's wild, but it seems to work.
05:56It fits four people and three cameras in it all at once,
06:00just in this little booth.
06:02And so while the coffee shop continued
06:04to operate around us,
06:05David and I sat down and recorded this episode.
06:08I asked him to begin with just to tell me his story
06:11and to start with the story of how coffee
06:13became part of his whole persona and brand
06:16in the first place.
06:17So I started doing these videos occasionally
06:20where I would do like a battery test or a camera comparison.
06:23And I was just kind of interested in vlogging
06:25and that kind of style,
06:26but I wasn't doing that on the channel
06:27because it was a tech channel.
06:28And so I started kind of making these battery tests
06:32and these camera tests while kind of bouncing around
06:34and like filming them in a very vlog-esque style.
06:37For those not familiar,
06:38a complete walkthrough of those channels
06:39where I try to go through every single feature
06:41on a new device that I possibly can
06:42so that you guys are better prepared
06:43should you be in the market to actually go buy one.
06:45Now with that said,
06:46there is a lot to go through.
06:48And then I just kind of like-
06:49Somewhere between like Casey Neistat and Marques Brownlee
06:53was like-
06:53Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:54Statistically like dead center
06:55was where you were-
06:56Sure, with like, yeah, with like,
06:57yeah, let's go with that.
06:59Yeah.
07:00Because it was like not terribly technical,
07:01but also just kind of like running around
07:04and showing you things.
07:05Yeah.
07:05Yeah, right.
07:06And then editing it to a beat.
07:07So yeah, so that happened a bit
07:10and then pandemic happened.
07:12And during that, I was filming in my apartment,
07:14like everywhere other creators was doing it.
07:15And I like kind of lost my mind as we all did.
07:18And as soon as like we were allowed really
07:20to kind of go outside again,
07:21I was like, screw it, I'm filming this outside now
07:23because I've just done however many videos
07:26literally in on the same coffee table.
07:28And so I went outside and just naturally
07:31went and got a coffee in the beginning of the video
07:34and sat down and got my coffee and I went coffee check.
07:36Like I got a coffee, right?
07:38Coffee, check.
07:39And then I would talk about the phone a little bit
07:42and then I kind of bounced around and I did that.
07:43And then I posted that.
07:45And I think we even talked about like history
07:48in the first one.
07:49I like kind of just went off the rails a little bit
07:50because I was losing my mind.
07:51Sure.
07:52But you didn't do that going like,
07:53I have just invented a catchphrase.
07:55No.
07:56Okay.
07:56Not at all.
07:57I literally just naturally went coffee, check.
07:59Like I got it, that was it.
08:00Yeah.
08:01And then I went away.
08:02And then posted that, people were stoked
08:03and they were just like,
08:04this is so different and fun and whatever.
08:05And I was like, oh, you like this too.
08:08Oh, great.
08:09Cause I enjoy this.
08:10And so then I started doing more and more of that.
08:12And I did a few and I got comments.
08:14They were like, where's the coffee?
08:17And I was like, oh, oh, this is a thing now.
08:20And I didn't realize, okay.
08:22And then in the next video I went coffee check
08:24and like got the coffee.
08:24Like there was a few videos that didn't have coffee in them
08:26and people were upset.
08:27So people told you it was a bit
08:29before you realized it was a bit.
08:31It was the audience that told me that I had to do a bit.
08:35That's so funny.
08:36And that just became a thing.
08:37So do you then take that thing and you're like,
08:40okay, coffee is now part of what I do here.
08:45How can I blow this out?
08:47Right, like there's a particularly like ruthless thing
08:51you could do in that moment that's like,
08:53okay, coffee's part of my thing now.
08:54Who's gonna be my coffee sponsor?
08:56I'm gonna start selling a coffee market's merch.
08:58Like there's a very simple,
09:00like how do I monetize this road
09:02that you can go down in that moment.
09:03Did you start going down that road?
09:05I think in my head I was like,
09:06oh, wouldn't it be really cool if I had a coffee sponsor?
09:09But I never, there was never anything beyond that.
09:11I was never like, oh, I'm gonna go find one.
09:13But if we're honest, that's also because
09:15I don't generally reach out to sponsors.
09:18Like, and I'm very fortunate in that way
09:19that like most sponsors have come to me.
09:21And then I kind of decide whether I wanna work
09:23with them or not.
09:24And it just happened to be,
09:25there wasn't any coffee sponsors that had come.
09:26I think I did one,
09:28which I was very excited about to this point.
09:30Aeropress came out and did an integration in a video
09:33where I made an Aeropress with, you know,
09:34the S24 Ultra or whatever it was at the time.
09:37And so that was really neat.
09:38But it was never like, I wasn't trying to go do that.
09:42It just felt like, oh, wouldn't it be,
09:43it would be a great fit if someone reached out
09:45and did that.
09:47I've been watching David's videos
09:49on The Unlocker for a long time.
09:51And it's honestly sort of shocking to me
09:53that he doesn't have more coffee content.
09:55So many of his videos start with a quick intro to the video,
09:59like what's about to happen.
10:00And then he just barrels the camera
10:02and goes first things first.
10:05And then there's a long montage of him getting coffee
10:06at some cool place around New York.
10:08And then he goes, coffee, check.
10:10And then the video starts.
10:11That's the thing.
10:12It's a good bit, but like lots of people drink coffee.
10:16You know what I mean?
10:17And I've always wondered whether he was really
10:19into coffee this way,
10:20or if that ends up being just a useful construct
10:23to set up a lot of these videos.
10:25Like I've filmed camera tests before.
10:27I know how hard it is to find interesting stuff
10:30to film and photograph on a camera to show on video.
10:33But then again, to be fair,
10:35we're sitting recording in his coffee shop.
10:38So this fact should not surprise you.
10:40I was a coffee snob.
10:42I'd like to admit that here.
10:43That was the word I was trying to not accuse you of,
10:45but I'm glad.
10:46No, it's totally fine.
10:47I've accepted it.
10:48Anyway, all that coffee love went from intros
10:52and AeroPress into something very different last year.
10:56That was when David's Lease was up.
10:57He had this space that he'd shared
10:59with a couple of other creators
11:01just a few blocks away in Brooklyn.
11:04And when their lease was ending,
11:05he started looking for a new space and a new project.
11:09Initially, my idea was to try
11:10to make something for creators.
11:12I wanted to make like,
11:13I wanted a larger space that could then have
11:15some sort of community.
11:16I was just kind of craving that, I think,
11:17like a bigger community of creators to like,
11:20you know, inspire each other and do other things.
11:23And then I was like, okay, cool.
11:24Like I went looking for a space.
11:26I found the space that we are currently in and I loved it.
11:28And then I did the math on, you know,
11:31how viable was this business model
11:33of like creators coming in and like, cool,
11:35we all, you know, can use this space
11:37and film in it and whatever.
11:39So you're describing like we work for creators.
11:40Essentially, right.
11:41And I literally would have said those words
11:43at some point to someone, I'm sure.
11:44So we were for creators.
11:45And the problem is, I realized quickly
11:48after finding the space and doing the math
11:49was that you have to limit the number of creators that join
11:52because, you know, people have to be able to film in here
11:55and you can't all be in here at the same time
11:56when someone's filming.
11:57Sure.
11:58And so inherently, it limits the number of members
12:00you can have, which means you have to charge a lot more.
12:02New York rent is not cheap.
12:03It just made zero sense.
12:05And I went, cool, great, done.
12:06Glad I figured it out before I started.
12:08And then I was literally in the space and be like,
12:10what else can I do with this?
12:12Cause I just really liked it.
12:14And originally when I walked in,
12:15I immediately thought, okay, a roastery.
12:18I would love to have a roastery.
12:20One, I would love to do something on my hands.
12:21I've just been a creator for so long that like,
12:22I feel like we all crave that to some degree at some point.
12:25And I love coffee.
12:26It was already part of the brand.
12:27I was like, okay, well now this also makes
12:28a little bit more sense.
12:30So maybe I could start a roastery.
12:31I could roast my own coffee and that could be my merch.
12:34I could then sell that to the audience.
12:36I can sell that to wherever, maybe other stores.
12:37You become your own coffee sponsor.
12:38I become my own coffee sponsor in every video.
12:40Was definitely part of that.
12:42Okay.
12:43And I've been doing that the last few videos.
12:44I'm sorry to anyone who's listening,
12:45who's been watching my videos.
12:46I'm so sorry.
12:46I'm gonna keep doing it for a little bit longer.
12:47So your thought was like,
12:48maybe I'll just do this myself.
12:50Like this will be a something.
12:52It seems like a side project.
12:55Is that?
12:55Is it the side project or is YouTube now the side?
12:57No, I'm just kidding.
12:58We're gonna get to that.
13:00I would say, yeah, it was.
13:01It was kind of just like a,
13:02hey, this felt like a good, I don't know,
13:05like a side project.
13:08Let's just call it a side project.
13:09That's what it was.
13:09It was felt like a good side project
13:10that also though had a lot of ties in
13:11with what I was already doing,
13:13which is another reason why I did it.
13:14For sure.
13:15Because if it didn't have that,
13:16it wouldn't have made as much sense.
13:17It was just like, cool, let me, you know,
13:18I already have no time.
13:19Like I'm as busy as it was with YouTube.
13:21Ask anyone that knows me,
13:22they're like, yep, David's always busy.
13:23So like, then I was like, cool,
13:24let me start another business.
13:26Was probably not the best idea, but it's okay.
13:28So wait, but on that front, actually,
13:30like in those first moments,
13:32like if the spectrum of ambition is like
13:36guy brewing beer in his basement
13:39all the way to like, I want to start Starbucks,
13:44where would you say your ambition was?
13:46Way closer to the guy in the basement.
13:47Okay.
13:48Yeah, no, because like, I don't,
13:50and it's funny because even people have said stuff to me
13:52about like, oh, when are you going to open your next one?
13:54And do you know, like, I'm like, oh no, never.
13:57That's not going to happen.
13:58Because like, it's so much work for just one.
14:00Yeah.
14:01And I kind of like the idea of it being a smaller thing.
14:04The point wasn't to make an empire out of this thing.
14:06It was just to do something good, right?
14:08Something that like felt good for me,
14:10generates revenue, sure, but I mean, you know,
14:12more so, right now I just care that it pays its own bills.
14:15That's all I really hope for.
14:18And it just was something that like, yeah,
14:20I was something, something felt good about the idea
14:23and it wasn't necessarily like building an empire.
14:27Okay, we have to take a break, but when we get back,
14:29we're going to talk about how you actually do all of this.
14:33Because it's one thing to say,
14:34oh, I'd love to open a coffee shop.
14:36Honestly, I feel like lots of people have at one point
14:39had that specific dream.
14:41You know what I mean?
14:42Mine personally is not a coffee shop.
14:44It's to like throw all this away
14:46and go open a divy sports bar somewhere.
14:49It's even another thing to actually find and lease a space
14:54and say, okay, I'll figure this out later.
14:57And then to decide I'm going to do a roastery
15:00and then I'm going to do a coffee shop
15:02because there's a door.
15:04You start to go down this road,
15:05but actually pulling all of that off and doing it well
15:09and do it without turning it into the exact thing
15:13and grind and lifestyle that you're trying to get away from
15:16in the first place, that's all way harder.
15:20We're going to talk about how all of that went for David.
15:27This episode is brought to you by AWS.
15:30With the power of AWS Generative AI,
15:33teams can get relevant, fast answers to pressing questions
15:37and use data to drive real results.
15:39Power your business and generate real impact
15:42with the most experienced cloud.
15:49All right, we're back.
15:49So just to reset here,
15:51we have David Kogan, longtime YouTube creator,
15:54tech reporter, apparently according to his website,
15:56some people call him a geek-a-later,
15:58which I don't even know what that means
16:00and I don't really want to ask, seems terrifying.
16:02He's been doing this for a very long time
16:05and he's just kind of, not exactly on a whim,
16:08but also not exactly not on a whim,
16:11decided to get weirdly into the coffee business.
16:14So then the question is, I suppose,
16:16what does it take to get weirdly into the coffee business?
16:19Where do you even start?
16:21So you have been a creator for a long time,
16:25so you know how to do that.
16:27I would not assume there are a ton of transferable skills
16:31between being a YouTube creator
16:35and becoming a coffee roaster.
16:38Sure.
16:39How, like, where do you start?
16:41How do you go, how did you go about that process?
16:43So I will say that there are some things
16:45that are translatable, which is like a love of data
16:47and like having to look at data.
16:48I feel like I bring that to the coffee shop
16:50in a way that I think is healthy.
16:52We'll have a lot of questions about coffee shopping.
16:54We can talk about that.
16:55I might need my laptop, but we can talk about that.
16:57But yeah, like how did I go about starting it?
17:01So, well, first off, so when I did that, the roastery idea,
17:04I realized that there was frontage,
17:05which is essentially just like a term for,
17:07there's street access.
17:08A door to the street.
17:09There's a door, yeah.
17:09So I might as well,
17:11because if we're going to be roasting beans in here,
17:12there might as well be something in the front
17:14where people can just buy them and hang out and sit.
17:16And so that's where the coffee shop then came from that.
17:18And then this back production space,
17:19which is where we're now,
17:21just kind of made sense for what I was doing on YouTube
17:24and everything else.
17:25Do you think about past you now,
17:26thinking about it like that?
17:27Like, oh, there's space.
17:27I might as well do a coffee shop.
17:29And you're like, that moron.
17:31Had no idea what he was signing up for.
17:32Nope, nope, yep.
17:33Question that every day.
17:34Okay, yep.
17:35Just curious.
17:36I will say, actually.
17:36That's the most casually I've ever heard someone
17:38decide to open a coffee shop.
17:39Yeah, so it's funny because I went from thinking about this
17:43to signing a lease in about three months.
17:45Oh, wow.
17:46And so I look back at that now.
17:48One, it was dumb, but also there was a blessing
17:50because I didn't have time to sit there
17:53and question all of the things.
17:54For sure.
17:55And now it's like, oh, it's too late.
17:57Cool, I'll just figure it out.
17:59First thing I did was I started to learn
18:01as much as I possibly could.
18:02I went to coffee events.
18:04I went to coffee conventions.
18:05I started taking coffee classes,
18:06roasting classes, barista classes.
18:08I'm certified in certain things.
18:10Because I just, I think a lot of us do this,
18:13especially most people I know that are in tech stuff.
18:15If we're gonna do something, we obsess about it
18:18until we're good at it.
18:19And so I started that process first.
18:22Well, signed the lease and then went, cool,
18:24now I've got to start this project.
18:25And then the lease wasn't, you know,
18:27it took a few months for that to actually start.
18:29So this is like,
18:30and then during those three months,
18:30it was just, yeah, this is happening.
18:32So it was like, so I think I signed the lease
18:34in December-ish.
18:36Yeah, and so like December, January, February,
18:38and then started starting construction in here.
18:41But so while all of that process was happening,
18:43I would fly off to, I think Chicago,
18:45I went to the SCA Coffee Expo,
18:47which was like one of the biggest ones.
18:49Took us all of the free classes they offered,
18:51as many as I could,
18:52that would fit in my schedule.
18:53Went to Javits Center, had one recently.
18:55I went and did that.
18:57Started taking coffee classes
18:58at another coffee roastery nearby.
19:00Like just obsessed, as you do, right?
19:03And so that is step one.
19:05It's like, I felt like I needed to know enough
19:07that I could obviously do this thing.
19:10Once, and then throughout that process,
19:12though, it was getting built.
19:13So then it just took a long time,
19:14took about eight months before it finally,
19:17you know, became looking like a coffee shop
19:20and not just a warehouse.
19:22You know what's fascinating about that, by the way?
19:23And I've been thinking about this ever since we talked.
19:26In YouTube time, eight months is like an eternity.
19:29If you work for eight months on a single project,
19:31YouTube's algorithm will almost certainly
19:33have forgotten you exist by the time you reappear.
19:36You just cannot work on that kind of timeline.
19:40But in building terms, like physical putting up buildings,
19:43eight months isn't bad.
19:45And I think one of the reasons it felt so long to David
19:48was that he was actually trying to live
19:50in both of those timelines simultaneously,
19:53to both be a creator at the pace the internet demands,
19:57but also do this deliberately slower and more personal
20:00and more thoughtful thing at the same time.
20:04It seems like it might be a healthy balance,
20:07but it also seems like it might just tear your brain
20:09completely to shreds trying to do both at the same time.
20:13For David, I think it was a little bit of both,
20:15but mostly the second one.
20:18I knew it.
20:18I knew what I was doing and I did it anyway,
20:21which maybe that was the mistake.
20:22But it was running two businesses at once.
20:25YouTube is a full-time business.
20:27I don't know if anyone knows, but it's a lot.
20:30And it's a constant grind and it's very draining.
20:32Everybody burns out, right?
20:33It's a very normal thing.
20:35Were you burned out on it?
20:36Yeah, I think I'd get burnt out every three months.
20:38It just comes and goes.
20:39It's like a cycle.
20:40I'm just used to it now.
20:41But I mean, I wonder, there's a definite
20:44armchair psychology thing I could do to you
20:46that is what a lot of people who burn out on YouTube do
20:51is make the why I hate YouTube video.
20:54Or they go make a product or something,
20:58just as kind of a reset to use a different part
21:00of your brain and try to diversify.
21:02Maybe this is what I'm doing is what I think
21:04you're telling me.
21:05So this is what I wonder is if I wanted to really
21:07try and psychoanalyze you, maybe that's a reaction
21:10to it where you're like, the grind gets everybody.
21:12Like it does.
21:13You're absolutely right.
21:14And I can see why it would feel like romantic
21:18and exciting to do something so sort of
21:20diametrically opposite of grind on YouTube.
21:23Yes.
21:24And I think that's like that, you know,
21:26people wanting to do stuff with their hands
21:27when they work on the internet.
21:28Right.
21:29That's why everybody got into sourdough.
21:30Correct.
21:31You just missed that actually.
21:32You just went, I wish I got into sourdough.
21:33You went way harder on that.
21:35This is my sourdough.
21:39Please come in and try my sourdough.
21:41No, it's, yeah, I totally agree with that.
21:43I think that's definitely a part of it.
21:45Even if that was a little more subconscious
21:47than like a conscious effort,
21:48it was definitely a part of it.
21:50Okay.
21:50But you also kept the YouTubiness of this space.
21:54Like there's a, I would say what,
21:5660% of the square footage in here,
21:59maybe half, 50%?
22:00Yeah, let's say 50.
22:01Is designed to be like a production space.
22:04Correct.
22:05Was that part of the plan from the beginning?
22:06So I always wanted to have that for a number of reasons.
22:09Just as a business person was like,
22:11I need to differentiate as much as I can in this space
22:14because I just got to pay rent.
22:14And I don't know how long the coffee's just going to take.
22:16I don't know how long the roastery's going to take, et cetera.
22:17So what's something else that I have some experience in,
22:20obviously, and was like,
22:21that could maybe also help just pay the bills for a bit.
22:23And I did research on Peerspace
22:25and started to look at all the other like
22:27rental studio spaces around here,
22:29realized none of them had a kitchen.
22:31And so that was my choice for building the kitchen.
22:33It was like, cool, differentiator, kitchen.
22:35You know what else they don't have?
22:36A podcast booth, which we're in right now.
22:38So got that as well.
22:39So it's just trying to like create a separate,
22:41not the business, obviously,
22:43but another part of this business
22:44that like could help pay the rent
22:45because that's all I cared about and still do.
22:48And so, yeah, so that, but the truth is like,
22:51cause this isn't, as we were talking about at some point,
22:53I don't need the backspace.
22:57Like I film most of my videos outside now,
22:59as we've discussed.
23:00And so I don't really need to have a space
23:02that I'm going to film in.
23:05The bigger intent was for this to get rented out,
23:07help pay rent, but I do use it.
23:10And I also kind of designed some things within here.
23:13For example, the kitchen has a very standard
23:15width of the oven.
23:17That way it can be swapped out
23:18so that maybe I can start doing appliance videos
23:20and not just phones and laptops and bikes
23:23and whatever else I do that are outside of a kitchen
23:25that are not as large.
23:26Can't do any of that in my apartment because I rent it.
23:29They won't let me.
23:30And then I did the same thing for the fridge.
23:32The fridge is positioned in a way where it's on the side
23:34where I could get a double-sized fridge
23:35and it would still fit.
23:37And I tried to do as many of the things as possible.
23:39Same thing with the, I'm never going to mount a TV in here
23:42because I want to be able to swap them out
23:43to do more TV reviews is something else.
23:46So I tried to add some elements of the space
23:48to benefit my YouTube channel in some way,
23:51but it's a small percentage
23:53of what the space should be used for.
23:55Really need to just rent it out.
23:56Okay, that makes sense.
23:57So, and to that point, actually, more broadly,
24:00how did you think about sort of connecting
24:05the coffee shop to the YouTube channel?
24:08There are a bunch of ways in which they are very connected,
24:10including the name.
24:11Like it's, you said coffee check in a lot of your videos.
24:14You opened a coffee shop called Coffee Check.
24:16Yes, which is dumb to anyone
24:18who doesn't know the YouTube channel, but it's fine.
24:19There's an easy thing you could have done, right?
24:22Back to the like,
24:23how do I monetize this thing on my channel question,
24:26where you make this whole thing
24:30kind of about your YouTube channel, right?
24:32And you have a TV that's always playing your videos.
24:34And hate that so much.
24:36And it's the background of all of your videos.
24:38And you try to make these things sort of symbiotic.
24:42My sense is you have like deliberately run
24:44the other direction of that,
24:46except for the little touches of the name.
24:48Like why not push these two things closer together?
24:51So to me, I think I wanted to make sure
24:53that I could do a good coffee shop.
24:54And then it stood on its own for that.
24:56I didn't want it to have anything to do
24:57with the YouTube channel as far as like,
24:59I dread those headlines that are,
25:03influencer opens coffee shop, right?
25:05Which are inevitable.
25:07Sometimes a lot of the people
25:08go to those coffee shops though.
25:09Yeah, which is great.
25:11But like, there's an implied,
25:12like a lot of people don't like that word.
25:14A lot of people don't know what an influencer does.
25:17Or, you know,
25:18and I don't think I would ever call myself an influencer,
25:19but you know, media, marketing company call me that.
25:22So it's fine, you know?
25:23But it's like, there's a connotation there
25:25that I think that is negative in a lot of people's minds.
25:28And I didn't want that, firstly.
25:30I also just, again, I wanted this to be,
25:32to live on its own.
25:33To kind of be Easter eggs for people that know,
25:35like the coffee check symbol, like the name, right?
25:37But everything else is just,
25:38oh, it's just the local coffee shop that we enjoy
25:40and we like, and it's just, you know, whatever, that's it.
25:43I didn't want it.
25:44I think on the YouTube channel,
25:45I don't mind doing the other way around, right?
25:47Because for me to on YouTube to be like,
25:49hey, here's the coffee shop that I made
25:50and like, come check it out.
25:51And like, here it is and filming in it.
25:53I feel like there's less of a,
25:55like, it's less weird to me that people on YouTube
25:58know I have a coffee shop.
25:59It's more weird to me that the people in the coffee shop
26:01know I have a YouTube channel.
26:02Interesting.
26:03Yeah, does that make sense?
26:04Yes.
26:05And yet, I feel like every time you bring it up
26:07on your channel, you apologize for bringing it up.
26:10Absolutely.
26:10Why?
26:11Because I'm annoying.
26:12I'm because a big part of it is that I keep bringing it up
26:17and I'm doing that partially because I need to like,
26:20get word out about the coffee shop to some degree.
26:23And like, and so it's almost like,
26:24feels like a bit of an ad to myself, right?
26:27So I don't want, you know, so I'm apologizing for that.
26:29And everyone has been very sweet,
26:30which I very much appreciate.
26:32All the comments have been like,
26:32dude, don't apologize.
26:33Like, amazing.
26:34Like, so glad you're like, you know,
26:35living a dream or whatever.
26:36And it's very, very, very sweet.
26:38Well, I think this is the thing.
26:40I still feel like I'm gonna apologize, so it's fine.
26:42But this is the weird thing about being a creator
26:45in this moment, I think, right?
26:46Where like, you could,
26:48your point about Influencer Opens Coffee Shop is like,
26:51I tend to agree with you that it feels sort of gross,
26:53but like, a lot of people will go to that coffee shop
26:57because for whatever reason,
26:58they feel attached to that person.
27:00And that's a thing you can use to,
27:03for evil or for good, right?
27:05Yeah, true.
27:06But if you use it for-
27:06We've seen it used both by many people.
27:08But I think if you use it for good,
27:09there's nothing inherently wrong with it, right?
27:12And I think, like, even what your original story
27:14about how coffee check became a thing,
27:17it's like, that's people being connected to you as a person.
27:20And like, they wanna know what you're up to,
27:21and they wanna know where you're going,
27:22and you're traveling, and they're happy.
27:23Where am I getting the coffee?
27:24Right, and so you get to a point where it's like,
27:26okay, actually what I'm doing is I'm bringing you along
27:28on this ride with me.
27:30Correct.
27:31And that would've just required a very different approach.
27:33Like, to some extent, it's surprising to me
27:35that you didn't make eight months of videos
27:38out of building the coffee shop.
27:40Seriously, like, a lot of creators would've done that.
27:42I don't know if it's pride.
27:43There's like, I want this to stand on its own.
27:45I want to do a good job at this.
27:47You want it to work because it's good,
27:49not because you're-
27:50Exactly.
27:51I don't want that to influence it in any way.
27:54I want it to just do well.
27:55I wanna have this coffee shop do well,
27:57the roastery do well, because they merit such things,
28:01not because of some other outside influence
28:04or marketing or whatever else.
28:05I mean, I've seen enough creators hawk the things
28:08that they're doing and kind of being like,
28:10hey, yeah, do it, I'm doing, I made this thing.
28:12And like, you know, I want it to actually
28:13do something with my hands, like be in the space,
28:15like not just like white label something,
28:16like actually make it and do the things and that.
28:19And like, I don't know, I think there's,
28:22I think I start to also, a good way to put it too,
28:24I think I start to skew my own data
28:27when I introduce those other things.
28:29If I want to make sure that this does well on its own,
28:31I need to not kind of push all of those other things into it
28:35because then I won't know what helped it do well.
28:37I have a very long lease, right?
28:38I did that on purpose.
28:40I want this to be a thing that doesn't just like
28:42get a bump of traffic because of influencer word
28:45and then dies, right?
28:47So it needs to be something that literally
28:48just can like be a part of the neighborhood
28:50and be a good thing and grow with the neighborhood
28:52and outlast my YouTube channel.
28:54This is the retirement plan, man, okay?
28:57All right, we got to take one more break
28:59and then we will be back with the rest of my conversation
29:01with David Kogan.
29:07This episode is brought to you by AWS.
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29:12teams can get relevant, fast answers to pressing questions
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29:24Okay, we're back.
29:29Now we're kind of back to the present in our story.
29:32David just spent eight months creating a coffee shop
29:34from scratch while still kind of sort of maintaining
29:37his YouTube channel.
29:38The thing is open, people are here, I ate a pie.
29:41It's all real now.
29:43The thing opened in late August.
29:45People are coming, it's doing the thing.
29:47You can find it on Google Maps,
29:49which I think is how you know you're really legit.
29:51Which means David has to decide
29:53not just what he wants Coffee Check to be,
29:55but now what will become of the Unlockr YouTube channel.
29:59And most importantly, and maybe most complicated,
30:02what he, David Kogan, YouTuber and now coffee shop proprietor
30:07really wants to do all day.
30:09And because of the way the tech industry works,
30:12he has had to make that decision really fast
30:14and really intensely because it is gadget season.
30:19I think there were two days for the first time
30:21because I had events to go to,
30:22because I'm now trying to go back to events
30:24and I'm starting to travel again
30:25and starting to like get back into the normal routine
30:27of the YouTube stuff.
30:29There were two days that I was not here at all.
30:31And that's it for the last six weeks, maybe.
30:35But now because of that, I'm starting to try
30:38to get back to doing videos.
30:39I have such a backlog.
30:41Again, I apologize everybody.
30:42There's like all of these, you know,
30:44like all of the Pixel devices,
30:45I'm still gonna do a video on, I just haven't had time.
30:47I finally did the flip like six, two weeks ago.
30:50I think that came out in July.
30:53So like, I'm just, I'm trying to get through the backlog.
30:55And the way I'm doing it is I'm literally coming
30:57into the coffee shop and I'm writing somewhere in here
31:00as you do in a coffee shop anyway.
31:02And, you know, being pulled away to like fix this
31:05or do this and do that.
31:06And that's just, it's just kind of doing both things
31:07at the same time.
31:08And then I'm now filming all of the videos.
31:10I still do them outside,
31:11but they're all within a very short distance
31:13of this coffee shop for now,
31:15because I just don't have the time.
31:16I can't go any further.
31:17So I like come in here, you know,
31:19write the scripts for, you know, a day or whatever,
31:20and then run out, film that video,
31:22and like check back in on the coffee shop in between scenes.
31:26And then, you know, wait for sunset,
31:27cause I need that to like get the night shots
31:29of if it's a phone, for example.
31:30And I go back out for that,
31:31come back into the coffee shop, clean a little bit,
31:33you know, reorder stuff and, you know,
31:35do inventory and something.
31:35So it's just been,
31:36it's literally just like a mix of the two worlds every day.
31:39Is the context searching of that brutal?
31:42Yes.
31:43Are you gonna survive that?
31:45No, to be determined.
31:48Okay.
31:49No, it's been, I've been feeling pretty burnt out,
31:51to be honest, but like, but there's something,
31:53it's a different burnout.
31:54Sure.
31:55Right, there's, because,
31:57and I'm sure some of it's just, it's novel, right?
31:59The coffee shop is new.
32:00It is a different thing.
32:01It is very, to what we've already talked about,
32:03it's very different than the YouTube channel.
32:04And so I enjoy it a lot,
32:06even if it's stressful and there's things going wrong
32:08and everything else,
32:09there's something about it that is just so enjoyable
32:12that it kind of tempers the burnout
32:14from all the things that are happening.
32:16And I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, I think.
32:18You know, I feel like there's,
32:20there is a world where this,
32:22where I'm here less and less.
32:24I can, you know, not have to worry
32:25about doing certain things.
32:26I'm trying to figure out inventory, for example, right?
32:28Like how do I make sure that the inventory
32:29I can project in a certain way
32:30that I don't have to order every time things get low,
32:32obviously, right?
32:33So it's a goal you have to get to getting there.
32:35So like, that's helpful.
32:37Is that the goal?
32:38Like is the goal to spend less time on this
32:43so you can go back to making videos?
32:46I, yeah, I, questionable.
32:48I wanna do both.
32:49I enjoy both to some degree.
32:51I think I enjoy the coffee shop
32:52more than YouTube at this point.
32:52But again, I think it's something to do
32:53with it being novel and it's with your hands and everything
32:55and I've been doing the other thing for 13 years.
32:57But I, you know,
33:00YouTube is still the thing I've been doing
33:02for however long, right?
33:04I can't-
33:05It's also, I assume, the business.
33:06It is.
33:07Like it's paying for everything.
33:08Yeah, yeah, this is just losing money.
33:09This is just a very expensive hobby.
33:11So yes, YouTube is paying the bills
33:12and it is kind of the thing
33:13that I've built over all this time.
33:15I can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
33:17Fair.
33:18Not that I would.
33:19I still enjoy YouTube, but like, you know what I mean.
33:20So I've now just,
33:23I'm trying to just get back to a better cadence
33:25of making the YouTube videos
33:27while still being involved in the coffee shop.
33:29Okay.
33:30And I think that's the goal.
33:31It's not necessarily like,
33:32step completely away from the coffee shop
33:33and then just run YouTube like I was.
33:35I think there's an element of like,
33:38if I could figure out more things to hand off in YouTube
33:41and make that a little more efficient,
33:43make the coffee shop more efficient.
33:44There's some, and maybe this isn't real,
33:46but there's some ideal world
33:47where I can kind of do both in a healthy balance
33:50and still have a social life somehow.
33:51I'll figure that part out later.
33:52Yeah, details, details.
33:55I think one of the things people burn out on YouTube
33:57and really kind of creator life in general
33:59is just that it asks so much of you
34:02in so many different directions all the time, right?
34:04Like I hear from creators all the time
34:06who are like, I started making videos
34:08because I like making videos.
34:09They were fun.
34:10The thing in the video is fun
34:12or the process of making the video is fun or something.
34:15And then all of a sudden you're like, oh my God,
34:16I'm spending all my day essentially doing data analysis.
34:18Like that's actually not a good time.
34:21And then your option is either grind
34:23until it burns you out, not worry about it so much
34:27and kind of limit your cap of success on the platform
34:31or basically try to systematize, right?
34:34Like hire people, outsource some of that stuff,
34:37make it no longer your problem
34:39and you just get to do the parts of it that you like
34:41and sort of solve the rest around you.
34:43And it sounds like that's the thing you're aiming for
34:45after a long time of just grinding.
34:47Yeah, look, so I think there's a couple of things there.
34:51I think that is the goal I would like, but not quite, right?
34:54Like I don't wanna be Marques,
34:55like that's just never a goal for me.
34:57I don't wanna have like, or a Linus or whoever else,
35:01which are essentially media companies.
35:02Correct, that's never a goal.
35:03I don't wanna do that.
35:04That sounds like more stress for me than I want,
35:06to be honest.
35:06It also like, I don't need to be that big.
35:08I'm happy to like, I just wanna,
35:11I think I need to let go of more things.
35:12And this coffee shop has kind of forced me to do that.
35:15Not to the point where it's like,
35:17I come in and I talk on camera for more than four seconds
35:20and I walk away and that's the end.
35:22I don't, and also just the nature of my videos,
35:24it's very difficult as well, right?
35:25Because I enjoy having this,
35:27like you're coming along with me, very vloggy style.
35:30As soon as there's a cameraman holding that camera,
35:32it gets a very different vibe, which I just don't want
35:34as a creative choice, I just don't like that.
35:37Maybe it'll happen one day
35:38and I won't have a choice.
35:39But like, that's, you know,
35:40like I kind of like bouncing around with the audience
35:42and like kind of, and I even enjoy making those videos
35:44where like, it's literally me like exploring places
35:46with you.
35:47I'm, a lot of these places are new to me too.
35:49So I don't think I'm gonna let that go.
35:51So there's somewhere else that I think I can hand things off
35:55but still be as involved as I can be without, you know,
35:58killing myself and going insane.
36:01But I do, but I also think like creators in general,
36:03we have this issue too,
36:05which is the fact that like in order to do what we do,
36:08especially YouTube or Instagram, whatever, social media,
36:10you have to make everything formulaic, right?
36:15So in other words, like in order to churn out
36:17as many videos as I do, I have to make everything
36:20so like fit into a box.
36:23Like I'm going to write the script,
36:24it's gonna be like this,
36:25I'm gonna get the shot like this, I'm gonna do,
36:26there's no area for creativity at some point
36:29because the only way it'll get done
36:31is if you make it as efficient as possible.
36:34And that is where I think we all start to burn out
36:35because then you're just like,
36:36I'm just a hamster on a wheel.
36:38Nothing feels gratifying at that point.
36:41It's just cool, making a video, putting it out, right?
36:43And especially around this time of year is even worse,
36:45but that's what the audience demands of you, right?
36:46Correct.
36:47That same thing over and over and over and over again.
36:51That's what the algorithm's like.
36:52That's what the audience expects.
36:53And at some point it just becomes easier
36:58and way less fulfilling to just deliver the thing.
37:01Correct.
37:02Yeah, and like, yeah, and you need to do the optimization
37:04in order to be able to do it.
37:06And the only way you can keep up with that cadence
37:09is to make things as smooth as possible,
37:10not as creative as possible.
37:12Has that-
37:12Yeah, like that's not-
37:13Transferred to the coffee shop?
37:14Does it feel the same way?
37:16No.
37:16No?
37:17No, which I think maybe that's another reason
37:18why I enjoy it so much.
37:19Like there is a lot of, because we just opened,
37:22there's a lot of creating all these processes
37:25and optimizing, and I do enjoy a lot of that,
37:29which is interesting.
37:29I enjoy it in this respect more so than like,
37:32I think I enjoyed trying to figure those things out
37:34with YouTube, but now that I've figured them out,
37:36they're just-
37:37Building systems is much more fun
37:38than living inside of them.
37:39Than just living in them.
37:40Yeah, correct.
37:40100%.
37:41That's a good way to put it.
37:42But yeah, so like, I'm building those systems
37:44for the coffee shop, and every day,
37:45like I get feedback from the baristas,
37:46or I'm behind the counter with them sometimes.
37:47I'm like, I see, okay, there's a bottleneck.
37:49Like, let's figure that out.
37:50You know, hey guys, what do you think,
37:52you know, what is a better setup for this?
37:54Like, what's slowing you guys down?
37:55And like, that's fun.
37:56There's something, I think, as humans,
37:58we like to solve things,
37:59especially when they're small problems,
38:00like where the cups should go.
38:03You know, like bigger problems, terrible.
38:05But like, you know, these kinds of things
38:06are like, they're fulfilling.
38:08They give you like a nice, ah, I did that,
38:10I checked the box, right?
38:11And so there's a lot of those right now
38:12in the coffee shop that are fun to do.
38:14So back to this like content coffee shop mix,
38:17I can now imagine a world in which
38:20you become a coffee content person.
38:22Like, the roastery is gonna happen.
38:25You already do a lot of filming of cups of coffee.
38:29As someone who has watched your channel for a long time,
38:31I can vouch for it.
38:32There are hours of videos of coffee cups on your channel.
38:36I don't even need to create new content.
38:37I can just splice all that together, boom.
38:39Exactly.
38:40It's a reel.
38:41To reverse all the questions I asked you
38:42at the beginning, right?
38:43You're like, oh, now I have a room full of coffee equipment.
38:46Maybe I should just point a camera at it.
38:48Yeah, yeah, it occurs to me.
38:50In the way a bad habit occurs to you, right?
38:52Like, I sit there and I'm like, hmm, I should film this.
38:55That would make some good content, look at that.
38:56Yes, I think I always think that.
38:57It's like a junkie thing.
38:58How do I make this content?
38:59It is legit that.
39:01And after a decade of YouTube,
39:02you see the world as content opportunity.
39:04It's real.
39:05For better and worse.
39:05No, it's real, it is absolutely true.
39:07And so I have thought about it.
39:11And I think there is a world
39:13where maybe more coffee stuff ends up on the channel.
39:16Or the audience, if they want that, maybe I'll try it
39:19and let's just see how they feel about it
39:21would be the way to do it.
39:23I mean, I did, of course, grab all of the social things
39:25for the coffee shop just preemptively
39:28because I was like, well,
39:29I'm gonna have to start doing content here as well.
39:30So I mean, I think, but that's different.
39:33So like, I think in the world in which we exist,
39:38you are going to have to take pretty videos
39:40of your espresso machine
39:40and put them on Instagram occasionally.
39:42And I think to some extent, again,
39:43those things are symbiotic, right?
39:45Like it brings people into the shop,
39:47people watch the thing, people like the thing,
39:48like that's all good.
39:49But I also think it changes the way you think
39:51about the thing when it becomes most lucrative
39:55as a content opportunity.
39:56Right, it will then become the thing I hate.
39:58Exactly, and so I think for you as someone
40:00who is like, who is in part this all appealed to
40:04as a thing that is not content,
40:06to then have that pull of what if I make content about this?
40:10And what if the content could help the coffee shop?
40:12But then eventually you get to a point
40:13where the coffee shop is just helping the content.
40:15Like how to pick all those things apart in your brain
40:18just strikes me as very complicated.
40:19So I think I've simplified it
40:22because I'm just so,
40:24I so don't want that last part to happen, right?
40:27I don't want that coffee shop to ever be making more money
40:30from the content than from the coffee shop.
40:32It becomes like a studio
40:33that happens to serve real coffee.
40:34Which I don't want, right?
40:36Because then to the point,
40:37I would then just be doing the thing again that I'm sure.
40:39So like, I don't, I won't ever let that happen.
40:41And so that like, in the same way that like,
40:43I don't want the influencer part of this,
40:45like, and I just want to have one coffee shop,
40:47I don't want to have more,
40:47like I think these are ways to limit that chaos
40:50that would normally happen in my head.
40:52I've given myself this hard no.
40:55And so like, I think we need to make content and we will,
40:58like right now we're posting photos and stuff
41:00and like, whatever, I'm terrible at writing captions.
41:02I just have too much to do,
41:03that was the other problem, right?
41:04So if I was going to try to make content in here
41:07and like try to get back to my own channel,
41:09like that, it's just, I'm burnt out as it is.
41:11That's just going to throw me over the edge.
41:13So, but I do,
41:14I do like the idea of doing some sort of coffee content.
41:16Maybe when things start to settle
41:17and they start to get like,
41:18at least I get caught up on all the techtober stuff
41:21that I need to get caught up on.
41:22I just don't know actually in my head
41:24if that's something that maybe lives on its own channel
41:29and it's kind of just the coffee check channel
41:31and I host that maybe to some degree,
41:33maybe someone else can host it,
41:34maybe I can set that up in a way where it's not just me.
41:36Because then that would be more scalable,
41:38easier for me to not have to be a part of all the time.
41:40Whereas like YouTube, take the unlocker, I'm not,
41:42I can't do that, right?
41:43If some other face showed up,
41:44it just would be a totally different channel.
41:46I just, again, I want this to be a good coffee shop,
41:48roastery, like known for the things that are those things
41:52and not tied to an algorithm and other things like that.
41:56All right, that is it for the Verge cast today.
41:57Thank you to David for being on the show
41:59and for lending me his podcast booth to do it.
42:02And thank you as always for listening.
42:04As ever, there's lots more on all of our coverage
42:07of the creator universe and YouTube
42:09and links to David's channel at theverge.com.
42:12I'll put some links in the show notes,
42:13but as always, read the website,
42:15a lot of stuff going on right now.
42:17And if you have thoughts, feelings, questions,
42:19or other places I can record a podcast
42:22in the back of cool coffee shops,
42:24you can always email us at vergecastattheverge.com
42:27or call the hotline 866-VERGE11.
42:29We love hearing from you.
42:30Please keep all your questions coming.
42:32It's the best.
42:33This show is produced by Liam James,
42:35Will Poore, and Eric Gomez.
42:37Vergecast is a Verge production
42:38and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
42:40We'll be back on Tuesday and Friday
42:42to talk about smart rings, Kindles,
42:44and all the other news happening right now.
42:47Because, again, I know I say this every week,
42:49but there just continues to be a lot of it.
42:52We'll see you then.
42:53Rock and roll.
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