Dan Smith of British pop band Bastille chats with music editor Roisin O’Connor for The Independent’s new music podcast series Roisin O’Connor’s Good Vibrations.In the pilot episode, Smith talks about his new album & (Ampersand). Inspired in part by some of his favourite artists, from Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, Simon & Garfunkel, Joan Bez and Laura Marling, it delves into the myths and histories surrounding figures such as Eve, Emily Dickinson, Marie Curie, Leonard Cohen and Marianne Ihlen.
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00:00Hello, welcome to Good Vibrations, I'm Roshina O'Connor, music editor at The Independent
00:09and I'll be your host.
00:10I'm so pleased to share that the first ever guest on this podcast, possibly the last depending
00:14on how much of a hit this one is, it's the nicest man in rock, Dan Smith.
00:19So for the uninitiated, and he's sitting right in front of me so I won't embarrass
00:23him too much, Dan is one of the best pop songwriters around.
00:26You might have seen him with his band Bastille selling out arenas around the world, smushing
00:29on the charts and getting nominated for a bunch of awards.
00:32Among their biggest songs are Send Them Off, Things We Lost in the Fire, Happier and of
00:37course Pompeii.
00:39They have 20 million monthly listeners on Spotify, a comparison that is more than The
00:42Foo Fighters and not far off bands including Oasis and The Rolling Stones.
00:46You might have heard the songs he's written for other people, even if you didn't realise
00:49it at the time.
00:51And you might have heard him on his brand new podcast with the brilliant Emma Nagoose,
00:54Muses and Amber Sand Podcast.
00:56As you're about to find out, me and Dan have known each other since Bastille's early days.
01:00We discuss his new music, what sparks his imagination and how it feels to write pop
01:04albums.
01:05So sit back, stop the doom scrolling and enjoy.
01:07You have an album out?
01:08I have an album out, yeah, yes.
01:11And all of the things that come with bringing an album out.
01:14But this one is different.
01:16It is, yeah, it's different.
01:20It's something that I may have been sort of working on for a few years but really finished
01:24at the end of last year from like a writing perspective.
01:28And then, yeah, I've sort of assembled a bunch of story songs that quite intentionally lean
01:36into the sort of lives and stories of others in a way that we kind of always have in our
01:42music.
01:43But I guess I kind of formalised it.
01:46And sort of always like honing in on specific people and characters through history and
01:51myth.
01:52Yeah, yeah, totally.
01:53I guess like most, to use a wanky term, creative endeavours, I guess I'm always trying to think
02:02of like with each project that I'm involved in what's kind of new or different for me.
02:06And as someone who's been in a band for like 10, 11, 12 years, there's definitely like
02:11an element of repetition that comes with touring and promoting stuff that feels a little bit
02:17like your brain is stagnating.
02:18I feel like music writing is the same, to be honest.
02:20Really?
02:21Or any writing.
02:23I do a lot of interview, interview news.
02:24And that's kind of the point of the podcast is to stop me getting bored and having a bit
02:29of a breakdown.
02:30Yeah.
02:31Eyes widened.
02:32Exactly.
02:33Should we tell listeners how we met?
02:34Yes.
02:35Because it is the most you thing ever, is that, you know, I think in any interview I've
02:42read most journalists have made this observation that you are very unwilling to talk by yourself,
02:48which is fair.
02:50But to the point that you'll sort of spend more time asking how the other person is,
02:55which is a lovely trait.
02:56But then for this interview, it was all about one of your favorite directors, which is Stanley
03:00Kubrick.
03:01And it was, I think I said it felt like bunking off school because we were just wandering
03:04around this museum looking at exhibitions.
03:07And it was James, what was his name, who curated it?
03:13Oh, just two people with facts in our brains.
03:17Yeah.
03:18Okay.
03:19But the exhibition was Stanley Kubrick and this is someone you admired for a long time.
03:24And yeah.
03:25Well, I mean, like, do you remember the exhibition?
03:28I loved it.
03:29Yeah.
03:30It was, it's great.
03:31I guess my, a lot of the music that I've made and the things I'm interested in coming from
03:36like the baseline assumption that I'm not that interesting, but that other things in
03:40life are.
03:41So it's always, I guess maybe that's how I get my head around it or I'm going to also
03:45genuinely think it, but yeah, getting to sort of dive into other worlds, other creative
03:49worlds.
03:50I, growing up as a massive film geek, as I've been at pace to mention to anyone that.
03:55Well, you wanted to be a film journalist.
03:56I did.
03:57I wanted to be a film journalist.
03:58I had this fantasy of sitting in a screening room watching films all the time, which I'm
04:05sure would have been awful and boring.
04:07I guess like with like, you know, what we, what we all learn in life is.
04:10It's never what you think it's going to be.
04:13Yeah, exactly.
04:15So I guess like, so I guess I probably growing up had more expectations of what working in
04:18film would be than the music.
04:20So I said this before, again, it's really boring, but like my whole experience of, you
04:25know, starting a band, touring, ultimately releasing music and, you know, getting a record
04:31deal and all of that was for me came from a place of like real naivety.
04:36So I was kind of learning as I went and the whole thing has felt like a slightly wide
04:41eyed myth busting experience, which I am at pains to always stress to other people
04:46when other people are like, wow, man, tour bus backstage, I'm like, listen, it's not
04:51fun.
04:52Well, it is fun, but like...
04:53No, I've been on a tour bus.
04:54It's not fun.
04:55It's not as fun as you think.
04:56The beds are like this big.
04:57It's just...
04:58Yeah.
04:59Yeah.
05:00No, it's not good.
05:01Anyway, so we met at an interview.
05:02So like, sorry, fast forward, then for a lot of the songs that I wrote were about people
05:06I found interesting or pop culture or history.
05:09And therefore, we ended up walking around a cubicle exhibition and having a chat, which
05:14was...
05:15It was a lovely day out.
05:16Yeah, it was really fun.
05:17It was like a school trip.
05:18Yeah.
05:19But I feel like the film stuff and wanting to write about film, I feel like you've somehow
05:22managed to kind of sneak the, maybe some of the motivation or the interest in that into
05:28music anyway, because I feel like you are very, very interested in storytelling.
05:32And that's kind of like one of the main drivers behind your music is that you want to tell
05:36other people's stories.
05:37Yeah.
05:38And, you know, you're very interested in characters.
05:39And I think that was the thing that to me, and I think to lots of people who love your
05:45music, is that, you know, like you bring characters in.
05:48And personally, I think there's like not enough storytelling in music anymore, not in kind
05:53of contemporary pop anyway.
05:54Yeah, it's interesting.
05:55I think about that a bunch because whilst I do think it's, you know, it's something
05:59I say about wanting to write a story, I was thinking like, that's sort of been done.
06:03This is going to sound really pretentious.
06:04A, it's been done in like in pop music for a long time.
06:07But also, if you look back before like pop, and in doing this podcast with Emma, looking
06:11at kind of, I guess, different societies throughout history, like songwriting in the old days,
06:17which obviously is a massively generalized term, was about like, about memory, and it
06:21was about like, if someone was celebrated, or notorious, you write a song about them,
06:25so you could tell other people.
06:27And so there's kind of in the history of like, even predating written history, the history
06:31of just human communication and passing stuff on through generations, doing it through music
06:36has just always been a thing.
06:37I know that sounds insane.
06:38I don't know anything about it.
06:39But I guess, just, you know, I've not done many interviews in and around this album,
06:44but in having to think about it a bit more, that was a thing that I kind of thought, not
06:48to put me remotely in some sort of like long line of tradition of story songwriting, but
06:54it's just normal.
06:55And I think the sort of autobiographical self diarization that a lot of artists do can be
07:02fascinating, and it can be heartbreaking.
07:03And I look to artists that I think are amazing, you know, contemporary, or like recent artists
07:07like Amy Winehouse, or Adele, you know, for whom personal experience is so intermeshed
07:15with the music they make, and it's all the more heartbreaking for it.
07:18And, you know, loads of modern artists as well, who were interested in not just because
07:23of their music, but because of who they are, or how famous they are, you know, there's
07:26something, like, tantalizingly voyeuristic about being able to decode people's lyrics
07:31and find out about their lives, because that's, that's like, yeah, that's, that's fascinating.
07:36I guess for me, it's, it was never like intentional or articulated, but of course, my life experience
07:42and things I do and things I think are kind of stitched in there, but also, you know,
07:47they're also not me at all.
07:48So I think, and that's always a slightly weird thing you come up against with, with like
07:53people who like your music, where our first album, for example, was, came from a real
07:56place of unthinking naivety.
07:58And I think if I was that person, there was those songs, I'd be very worried about me.
08:05And like, I'm sure I've had those thoughts at times, or I'm projecting or whatever.
08:09But it's then really interesting when you have the fortune of meeting people who really
08:14love the album, resonate with it, and maybe, maybe the album becomes more reflective of
08:18who that person is in that time than you.
08:20But you're so proud of the album, right?
08:22Oh, yeah, totally.
08:23Oh, yeah, good.
08:24Because it's great.
08:25This thing of, this thing of sort of like disliking Virginia, you first did, I don't
08:30know.
08:31I totally get that.
08:32I get where you're going.
08:33And, and there's something just innately really bizarre in making an album that's like a,
08:38you know, you were thinking about it for a minute, as soon as you put it out, like, it's
08:41a cliche, but as soon as you put out, it's kind of not yours anymore.
08:44But then, you know, if you, if you were releasing music at the time where we have been, you
08:49don't go out and sing those songs like nearly every night for a really long time.
08:54And so you kind of live in them.
08:55And it's just, I don't know, I don't have the words for it, I'm not articulate enough,
08:59but it's such a sort of, it's such a complex, weird, nuanced thing where, you know, it becomes,
09:04it becomes so many things, it becomes important to other people, it becomes your job, it becomes
09:09repetition and all of that.
09:10And I think I've been lucky enough to be allowed to keep making stuff for a while.
09:16And it's taken me this last couple of years to realize that the satisfaction I get is
09:22from making something new.
09:24And even now, like,
09:25Well, you're like a fidget.
09:26Like, you just don't stop.
09:27You know, I think there was an interview you did a while ago where you said you'd had two
09:31weeks off, and then you were in a double bill of some film festival thing.
09:36Yeah.
09:37Yeah.
09:38But, you know, I guess, like, obvious comment, well, many obvious comments from me, but like,
09:42I'm going to start throwing things at you every time I think it's funny.
09:45But like, we're all different.
09:46And I think as I, as I, like, as I get a bit older, I sort of realize I have a busy brain
09:51that really likes to, you know, I love being across a bunch of different things.
09:55Well, yeah, you're a creative, you get bored if you stop.
09:57But I also don't love, like, you know, I have a complicated relationship with, like, touring
10:01and promotion, as I'm sure we all do.
10:03And some people have the poise to not mention it, and then there's me.
10:06Well, you know, it's good though, because again, like, you've spoken about, you know,
10:10you tell people, the reality is very different from what is projected in, you know, like
10:15in TV shows.
10:16And, you know, even like super glam pop stars doing interviews, yeah, they make it look
10:19very appealing and very glamorous.
10:20And obviously, Instagram is great for that as well.
10:23But yes.
10:24But I don't know, like, I don't know many artists I've spoken to who don't get anxious
10:32as fuck before they go on stage and feel like they're gonna have a panic attack.
10:34But one of my main bugbears for ages has been the fact that you were constantly billed as
10:38a rock band.
10:40Yeah, I know.
10:41It's bizarre.
10:42I mean, like, I feel like I don't want to put too many of my creative actions on the
10:46perception of others.
10:47But we never, you know, we never, we never claimed to be a rock band.
10:51I think it really speaks to like, it speaks to that time.
10:53Or kind of like an inverse misogyny kind of thing.
10:56Because you see a bunch of guys in a band, and you're like, oh, they rock.
10:59And if it was women, it would be very different.
11:01They'd be like pop.
11:02Yeah.
11:03Yeah.
11:04I mean, there's obviously, like, loads of bullshit in and around that.
11:08But, you know, I wouldn't, I mean, that's an interesting way to put it, for sure.
11:13I think, yeah, it was interesting, like, I'm really cynical.
11:16And I think that where I fit weirdly is I've got like, I'm massively cynical.
11:21I'm my own worst critic, to use a bunch of cliches.
11:24I like, I overthink everything we do and think of like, how it would be negatively received,
11:29like a small amount, not massively, but like, that's there.
11:31But then there's also this like, ridiculous naivety of wanting to make things and it's
11:36so, I'm so lucky to get to do it.
11:37But it's fucking ridiculous and absurd, getting to go to a room of people to make songs, or
11:41sit by yourself and make songs, and then them, you know, then them, like, go out to the world
11:46and potentially be a part of people's lives.
11:48That's really obvious.
11:49But it is, it is bonkers.
11:50But I, yeah, I think when we, when we started releasing music, we didn't, it was kind of,
11:59we sort of like slightly predated streaming and the idea that you could write loads of
12:04different things.
12:05And, you know, particularly in the UK, we were like four guys in a band, which was the
12:08thing I was always like, so boring, it's so fucking dumb, which is why I wanted our videos
12:13to feel like films.
12:14And like, you know, initially, we didn't even have photos of us out there, like I kind of,
12:18I loved the idea.
12:19And it's obviously absurd.
12:20But I love the idea of like, that kind of slightly annoyed, what is this?
12:24I think you achieved that.
12:25That was totally a thing.
12:26Like when your first album came out, and then the second one as well, I felt like, and that
12:31was the great thing.
12:32And there was like a really cool creativity around that, because I think you actually
12:37circumvented the right word, that predictability of, oh, it's a band, they're going to release
12:41a bunch of bands, they're going to tour.
12:42Yeah.
12:43I guess we did mixtapes, and we did re-releases and all that stuff.
12:46Yeah, and you did the verses kind of things, which are great.
12:49And like, you know, I felt like you always found ways to bring in the fact that you have
12:53an incredibly eclectic taste and like fascination in pop music and all other genres and everything,
12:58and bring that into whether it was like a Bastille thing or like a side project or whatever.
13:02I'm going to kind of like bring this back, because I know you don't want to talk about
13:05your own stuff.
13:06Oh yeah, I'm more than happy.
13:07But Ambasand is, you know, I mean, we've spoken about myth like so much over the last, what,
13:13six, seven years or whatever.
13:15And that comes into Bastille's music, but also, you know, I'm obsessed with it.
13:19And so seeing that you were putting out an album where there are songs, you know, about
13:23Narcissus and Eve and...
13:28Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:31These kind of mythical figures.
13:32I think for me, this whole project has been a really interesting exercise in humanizing
13:39these people who we remember.
13:41You know, there's another project that I'll talk about in a minute on this.
13:45But it's sort of like, I guess it goes back to that kind of myth busting thing, right?
13:50Taking these people who either were real and remembered in a certain way, rightly or wrongly,
13:56or people that weren't real, but they symbolize so much and just try to humanize them and
14:00think, you know, with Eve, for example, like, obviously I'm a guy, but that doesn't mean
14:05I don't have like an imagination and empathy and the idea of, obviously that's not a true
14:10story, but the idea of being Eve, and if you were to sort of like literalize it, the idea
14:19of being Eve, and being the first person ever to, you know, go through all the things
14:25that like a lot of women do physically, be that like periods or pregnancy and then childbirth
14:33without anyone to talk to, and anyone to sort of warn you or give you tips or anything.
14:39Living in a time where, you know, for better or worse, like, there is so much information
14:43about literally anything and everything you could do physically, mentally, outside of
14:47your own body.
14:48Like, you know, it just, that in and of itself to me is like fascinating and very sad.
14:53And I hadn't thought about it that way, but the idea that you would be the first person
14:57to have ever experienced something, ever, and it has never happened to anyone before.
15:01People have thought about it really hard.
15:03But yeah, so for me, I obviously went through the process with writing about other people
15:07and thinking like, what's my position here?
15:09Who am I to write about them?
15:11All of those things, which like, I still don't have a formed opinion.
15:14I spoke to a bunch of different people about that.
15:17And when I felt maybe like an imposter, but not in a sort of woe is me way, in a like,
15:24you know, genuinely other people with, you know, more knowledge and a better experience
15:29or a closer relationship.
15:30That's great.
15:31You're doing all the promo and stuff, and this seems nice for you because you're going
15:35to do it in a much more kind of just, I don't know, organic way?
15:40Yeah, I think in trying to think of like, why I'm doing this.
15:44Like doing the podcast?
15:45Yeah, exactly.
15:46And I guess I want my place, what my place in music in 2024 is or isn't.
15:52I was like, the way I kind of put my head around this year and doing it was I wanted
15:55to feel almost like doing a course, and that sounds so lame.
16:00But like, I made this music that I love, but I did a bit of research.
16:03And then, but I don't think, I'm not like an authority on these people, and I don't
16:06speak to them with any kind of like...
16:08Are they fascinating?
16:10Yeah, but they're fascinating.
16:11So like, the album came from a place of like, interest, curiosity, and excitement and like
16:15nerd, nerdy excitement and wanting to share these stories, you know, like all of it, selfishly
16:20was like, I want to do these things that are different for me and new for me, even though
16:25they're old things.
16:26And then, you know, hopefully drag people along, if they're interested.
16:29Yeah, this isn't like kind of going off of the old things comment, but you are pitching
16:3440.
16:35Yeah.
16:36Yeah, that wasn't from the old comment.
16:37I heard you say old.
16:38Speaking of old.
16:39No, I'm in my 30s as well.
16:40And I love it.
16:41But I kind of wonder if that has been in the back of your mind, kind of like when you said
16:47you were kind of keen to do other stuff, and you don't, you know, like, you kind of try
16:50and sort of veer away from like, I guess, what can feel like the monotony of like, yeah,
16:56album tour, promotion, blah.
16:57Yeah.
16:58And do you think that's been like any kind of driving factor at that point in your career?
17:04Yes, question.
17:05I think I definitely think when things at the beginning for our first album, you know,
17:10we had like a whole bunch of like commercial success that we weren't really expecting,
17:14and kind of like, you know, nobody prepares you for, and it's, you know, suddenly like
17:20took over our lives, I think, and we were sort of touring and going everywhere, there
17:24was definitely a part of me consciously or subconsciously, it was like, just keep going,
17:27because if you stop, it might stop, and it was just fucked up, and a whole other thing
17:31to unpack.
17:32Yeah, I guess, I guess, like, with the experience of having put out a bunch of albums, for better
17:39or for worse, you know, you, there's something nice and quite naive in like being completely
17:45obsessed with a project for a bit, and then you put it out, and then, you know, your opinion
17:49of it might change, other people's opinions might, like, seep in, or you'll be all strong
17:53willed, and you ignore all that, like, whatever, I guess, as I've grown older, I, I'm still
18:00a complete head case, but I try and think about the experiences of, I want the experiences
18:06of making these things to be, like, hopefully a good one for the people involved, and for
18:12me, and yeah, yeah, fun, and like, and there's so much of music that's like, really navel
18:17gazing and self obsessive, and that's a bit of it, I find really uncomfortable, you know,
18:21having to sit in the world of an album for a really long time, and talk about it, and
18:25it becomes, you know, should you start to repeat yourself, and you're saying things
18:28in almost, like, a politician style, like, PR'd way, even if you have the best intentions,
18:33if you're asking the same questions over and over again, you can't not slip into that a
18:37bit.
18:38Well, yeah, and it's kind of what you were talking before about, as well, like, experiences,
18:40and, you know, like, you have these amazing artists, like Amy Winehouse, who, you know,
18:44over the course of a couple of albums, could talk about the same relationship in a myriad
18:48of ways, like, you know, myriad ways, it's gonna bug me, it was gonna bug me forever,
18:52and I said myriad, I was like, that's not right, like, that one's always plagued me,
18:56it was gonna haunt me forever, if I didn't correct it. Anyway, you know, so yeah, like,
19:01you know, I'm no good, and then, just, I mean, it's literally one of my favorite songs of all
19:05time.
19:06So good, I've been listening to it a lot recently.
19:07Have you?
19:08I accidentally watched the film.
19:09Oh, no.
19:10Yeah.
19:11Okay, yeah.
19:12But the really great thing that came out of it was it made me go back and listen to
19:17like, Amy Winehouse's music.
19:18I love it when that happens, because I feel like you can sort of leave an album for a
19:22while.
19:23But I don't know if you do this, but I tend to get fixated on one thing.
19:27And then that will be on the loop for like, a good couple of months.
19:29As in one song or one album?
19:30Either or, like one artist.
19:31And a lot of the time is if I'm interviewing someone, you know, I'll get stuck into them
19:37and sort of like be listening to that for a couple of months.
19:40And it's been a lot of Bastille.
19:41I've been enjoying it.
19:42I said, like, it's the writing, I think, you know, like, you know, stuff that you didn't
19:49necessarily anyway.
19:50I'm not going to embarrass you again.
19:52But yeah, it's that fixation, I don't know.
19:55Like, also the fact that getting into 30s and not, like, falling out of love with music,
20:00which was apparently a thing when you hit 33, there was a study ages ago that was like,
20:05you stop listening to new music.
20:07And I mean, I've got another, what, eight months before that's supposedly going to happen.
20:11But so far so good.
20:12I wasn't happy when you hit it.
20:13You know, it's weird, isn't it?
20:17I sort of think this is a terrible metaphor, but a bit like with reading, you can just
20:21fall out of it.
20:22You know, like, if you're a reader, you're like, you know, just raking through all these
20:28books and loving it.
20:29And then I can completely just fall out of the habit and step away.
20:32And I think with new music, it's like this constant conveyor belt, particularly now,
20:36you know, that has been for a while, but like Friday, whether you care or not, I'm like
20:41constant releases.
20:42And, you know, it speaks to the sort of dismantling of monoculture that like all this, all this
20:48stuff is happening, all these worlds and subcultures exist and just completely pass you by.
20:52And I think with, I guess with living on the internet a little more, like, whilst it can
20:56open those up to you, it can also be happening in like just, you know, two meters off to
21:01the right and you'll never know that it's there.
21:03So it's kind of, it's a sort of weird, it's a weird one, isn't it?
21:07It's like, it's, I'm not saying that like having bigger pillars and gatekeepers is a
21:15good thing because I don't think it necessarily is or was, but at least there's something
21:19like, I know this is a real cliche, but the water cooler moment thing that, you know,
21:23I know with like TV and streaming, it seems to be sort of going full circle.
21:28Like there's, it was, we all didn't have choice to be watching a bunch of the same things
21:34and that in a weird way, kind of maybe this is a way of like unified things in a certain
21:39way, or at least didn't have something to talk about.
21:41Now, you know, I guess part of the challenge of putting anything out into the world, be
21:45it music or film or, you know, non-creative stuff is just the like quite blank realization
21:51that there aren't really places to go unless you're massive, where like a lot of people
21:57are going to be aware of it.
21:58But it's like what you were saying about like coming full circle and everything, because
22:01I mean, yeah, it's weird because I think I got asked to do this panel talk actually,
22:06which is exactly about gatekeeping and, you know, like I...
22:10How does it feel to be a gatekeeper?
22:12Oh, fucking hell.
22:13I just, yeah, I'm in two minds about doing it at the moment because I mean that in itself
22:19feels quite navel-gazey, but you know, the whole like kind of hand-dragging of like what
22:23is the status of the critic?
22:25And the thing is like, I never went into music writing to be a gatekeeper, you know, I went
22:30into music because I really wanted to write about stuff that I loved.
22:33And my whole ethos, this whole time of doing music writing has been anything as long as
22:37it's good.
22:38And obviously that is subjective, like, you know, but yeah, so that's been the thing.
22:45And then so, but yeah, like back in the day, I guess you had, you know, like reviews could
22:51make or break someone's career or, you know, depend on whether there was going to be a
22:55first season of a TV show or whatever.
22:57And then we went through this weird phase where suddenly influencers and like, you know,
23:00social media and stuff was playing a big part, which I hated because, you know, you had amazing
23:06shows that would suddenly go massively downhill because the directors and the writers were
23:10paying too much attention to what everyone was saying on social media.
23:13Do you remember Sherlock?
23:14The BBC show?
23:15I mean, like I was in...
23:16It's just like, it's so fascinating, isn't it?
23:19And I guess this is the point you're getting to, which I'm already interrupting, but like
23:21it's like sound involvement and how much you should listen to the audience and not.
23:25And I think there's a podcast that I listen to, they constantly make the point that like
23:32the stuff, even now, the stuff that like, be it books or film or TV or music that's
23:37like written about the most, maybe in those public, like it very, very, very rarely lines
23:42up and even awards.
23:43Like what's the TV show, the massive one that like West, there's a bunch of shows I'd never
23:48heard of that are like the biggest things on TV.
23:52I mean, TV I'm like completely disconnected from.
23:55It's very weird.
23:56Like, you know, like something will be massively critically acclaimed, like the West Wing and
24:00House of Cards and all of those TV shows.
24:02I'm so...
24:03Yeah.
24:04Yeah.
24:05Yeah.
24:06I guess totally.
24:07Sorry, I fully interrupted you.
24:08No, no, no.
24:09I interrupted you.
24:10But there's something like, there's something about, yeah, about that, you know, no one's
24:15right.
24:16No one's right.
24:17And I think, and there's so much stuff, particularly me, that's been said about it, about like
24:20just put out stuff that like you believe in and it'll arrive, you know, like we'll find
24:23it one day.
24:24And you're like, yeah, we're living in a time where new music has like less, I don't know,
24:33people...
24:34Staying power?
24:35Yeah, staying power.
24:36But also like, it's just really hard to cut through to anything.
24:38So I think, and that's the thing.
24:39With some exceptions this year, but what you were saying is that it's kind of coming back.
24:43Yeah.
24:44So now you have artists like Chapel Rowan and Sabrina Carpenter breaking through, which
24:46is so fucking great to see like, you know, not one, but two massive, amazing pop stars.
24:52And also Charlie.
24:53Yeah, totally.
24:54Well, that's what's so reassuring this year is to see like, yeah, like with, I mean, Sabrina
25:01Carpenter's been around for ages, but like...
25:02Six albums.
25:03Exactly.
25:04Yeah.
25:05So, you know, and again, it speaks to like, what is new, it's more about what's new to
25:09you rather than what's actually new, because we're there, but yeah, like, and Chapel Rowan
25:13as well.
25:14She's been working for like, over a decade, and it's brilliant, and it's, you know, it's
25:18so nice to see people sort of have their, quote unquote, to use a cliche, have their
25:22moment.
25:23But like, and with Charlie, it's just like, I fucking love that she's just been doing
25:26what she does brilliantly in different ways, pushing the form, doing brilliant work.
25:32And at times that intersects with the mainstream, and at other times it doesn't.
25:36And to have this album that's like, you know, it's more like an attitude than an album.
25:41Oh my god, yeah.
25:42And it's so, it's so brilliant, like, to see, see that, you know.
25:45I mean, the thing I love, and I know, like, obviously, everyone rightly talks about Ray's
25:49story and her kind of breaking out of that label contract, and then kind of finally proving
25:55like, you know what, I was right all along, like, my music is fucking amazing.
25:58I'm an amazing singer, I can write all of this stuff, and she's doing really well.
26:01And that's great.
26:02But I feel like Charlie was in that position as well, where it was like, you know, being
26:06pushed to do more pop, and kind of leaning into that kind of stuff.
26:09And I can't speak for her, but probably having been in not the same situation with her, but
26:14the AD adjacent one, like, probably being pushed to, but also probably wanting to a
26:18bit as well.
26:19Yeah.
26:20But then the thing of like, well, I'm gonna make an amazing pop album, and it's gonna
26:23do really well, but then I'm gonna do something else that I want to do, and it's gonna be
26:26completely different.
26:27Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:28So Crash, and then you have Brat, like the fact that those two albums are so disparate,
26:33and like, I love both of them in very different ways.
26:35I just love that it's like the stubbornness, I think, in a way, which appeals to me.
26:39Oh, totally.
26:40And I guess like, there's something about that stubbornness that's a sort of like trajectory
26:45that that like, pierces across time and culture, rather than trying to ride the wave of it.
26:50And boy, stay big.
26:51It's like,
26:52Yeah, rather than constantly fretting about like, what is everyone talking about?
26:55What do people want from me?
26:56Yeah.
26:57It's like, I like this.
26:58And this is the thing.
26:59This is what, you know, where that ethos comes from, anything as long as it's good.
27:03It's like, I'm not gonna write about something just because everyone else is writing about
27:07it.
27:08I think Glastonbury was a really interesting example this year of how odd things fit at
27:11the moment with the disparity, the massive disparity between crowd sizes and who's booked
27:15where and, you know, and I guess like heritage artists or like, which feels like a kind of
27:21like shit phrase to use.
27:22But I think,
27:23Well, it's like, you know,
27:24It's a real shift now.
27:25A cop out of saying, you know, we're scared that no one's gonna turn up if we book someone
27:29newer.
27:31So we're gonna wheel out these old guys and then deal with it.
27:34Totally.
27:35But also, as someone who was there as a punter, it is also fascinating.
27:40Yeah.
27:41I like this.
27:42I love that story.
27:43Yeah.
27:44As a fan.
27:45But like, you know, seeing Avril Lavigne be one of the biggest crowds of the weekend.
27:48I mean, that was awesome.
27:49It was fucking amazing.
27:50No, I'm not complaining.
27:51Oh, yeah.
27:52I think it speaks to like, the real disconnect between what I guess the booking process and
27:57what people expect to be like, I saw some incredible sets like, like Scissor Burner
28:03Boy like, in on big stages with way smaller crowds.
28:07And there's, there's so much to unpack there that is way more, you know, so complicated
28:11than I'd like.
28:12Well, one thing that I heard this year that I had no idea was a thing, but and you know,
28:17it was from a decent source, who I trust, but apparently, a couple of artists or a few
28:22artists get to pick their own stages, and they will do it deliberately because then
28:26it looks fuller.
28:28So like, they get offered a big one.
28:29And then they say, No, I want to do this one, because I know it'll be like packed out and
28:32it'll be like, you know, they'll have to like, barricade it and all this kind of stuff.
28:35And then I guess the other thing is, yeah, like with the scissor thing, I was kind of
28:39crushed for her because obviously, she should have a big crowd, but they kind of, they kind
28:44of stack the odds against them sometimes, like they put them on the Sunday slot when
28:47everyone's hungover and leaving.
28:50And I felt like if she was in a different place, and yeah, like with the heritage thing,
28:54I don't know.
28:55I mean, the whole headline artist conversation.
28:57Yeah.
28:58And that's interesting.
28:59I say heritage.
29:00And if I then said, like, Avril Lavigne in the same way, like it's, it's, it's obviously
29:05heritage feels like decades ago, but I guess the idea now that we don't know, you know,
29:10in the same year that Sabrina Carpenter is, is massive, and Charlie XCX and Chapel Rowan,
29:15there's also like the darkness being number one in America, because you know, and like,
29:18and you know, earlier in the year, it was so pleased for Justin, like Sophia Lisbester.
29:23I mean, yeah.
29:24Fucking amazing.
29:25But I guess there's, so there's this sort of reckoning, as you know, as someone that's
29:28just released an album, and it's like, you know, whilst I'm obviously part of the music
29:32industry, I've always felt very removed from it.
29:34So for me, with like releasing this music, I was like, I've always wanted to play guitar,
29:38I'll force myself to learn because I have to.
29:40Because I'm so envious of you doing that.
29:42I wanted to learn guitar.
29:43I just don't have the discipline.
29:44You can do it.
29:45I'm so lazy.
29:46My brain is so short attention span.
29:50There's a difference between that and then thinking like, I'm gonna be, you know, Axl
29:55Rhodes or something on the guitar the moment you pick it up.
29:58And that's my problem is that if I'm not amazing at it straight away, I'm like, no.
30:02That's the entire reason it's taken me so long.
30:06Because I'm not good at the piano, but I can get around it and I can write songs and I
30:12can play the songs I want to write.
30:15I think this album for me, it was like just pinning it right back and just sort of challenging
30:20us at every point to do things slightly differently.
30:22Even that's like how I do the vocals, how it's recorded, like leaving the mess in there.
30:27All of those things and leaning into the kind of intimacy, the warmth of the breath and
30:30the sound of the guitar strings, all of that stuff.
30:32But yeah, I mean, this year for me has been like really creatively great because of what
30:40you were just saying.
30:42Writing for film and TV, working on an original film, working on a musical, which is hilarious
30:48because it's not something I ever thought I would be involved in.
30:50But wanting to do it and be good, I'm like, oh, that's not my world, it's not necessarily
30:55my thing.
30:56But if I'm going to be involved in it, I want it to be what I would want from that.