Why Is Donald Trump So Popular Among Divorced Men?

Forbes

In 2024 election polling, Donald Trump is dominating one demographic group: divorced men. 56% of divorced men support the former president.  Senior Editor Maggie McGrath sat down with Ralph Brewer, founder of Help For Men, to discuss why divorced men may be more open to Donald Trump's message and what he really hears when he speaks with divorced men.   0:37 What Does Help For Men Do? 2:20 What Do People Get Wrong About Divorced Men? 5:22 Is it Surprising Divorced Men Are Drawn To Trump? 11:01 What Changes Do Divorced Men Want? 14:32 Who Is Better For Divorced People: Trump Or Harris? 17:51 Masculinity, Divorce, And Donald Trump 21:33 Can We Lower The Temperature Of The Gender Wars?  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00Hi everyone, I'm Maggie McGrath, editor of Forbes Women.

00:06Research shows that over the last two decades, divorced men have been growing more conservative

00:11in their political views, and new polling shows that 56% of this cohort supports former

00:17President Donald Trump in the 2024 presidential election, a greater percentage than their

00:22single and married counterparts.

00:25Joining us now to explain why this demographic is feeling this way is Ralph Brewer.

00:30He is the founder of Help for Men.

00:33Ralph, thanks so much for being here.

00:34Thank you for having me on, I appreciate it.

00:38Let's talk about Help for Men.

00:39You are the founder of this group.

00:41When did you start it, and what made you start this site and this community?

00:45Well, years ago, approximately 12 years ago, I went through a divorce, and I ended up with

00:51majority custody of my children for several years.

00:55I wrote about my experience, and I blogged about it, and I created some content over

00:59it.

01:00I created a lot of different content, including books on a variety of different subjects,

01:03including sex and marriage, and divorce, and dating after divorce.

01:07I got a lot of eyeballs on my material, so to speak, and my content.

01:11I decided to create, not too long ago, a brand that was more inclusive, and a private members

01:17group.

01:18We create articles and videos, and we call that Help for Men.

01:21We have a private community that is very, very active.

01:24We get together for discussions, we have live Zoom meetings, we get together in person for

01:30conferences.

01:31We're having our fifth annual conference next year in South Carolina.

01:34It's very, very busy, and the plight of the divorced man, if you will, is something that

01:40I know personally very, very well.

01:43The plight of the divorced man, and I feel like in my circles we talk about the plight

01:47of women or divorced women, but just for context, how many divorced men do you think

01:53you talk to on an annual basis?

01:55Oh, I would say thousands.

01:59We have within our group hundreds, but it's through my content and via messages that I

02:04get directly from men, it's definitely in the thousands for sure.

02:08And are they geographically centered anywhere, or is it widespread across the U.S.?

02:13It's widespread across the world, mostly U.S.

02:16Our number two market is Australia and everywhere in between.

02:19Interesting.

02:20So we have some Aussie perspectives, but I'm curious, what is the biggest thing that you

02:25think the media or the general public doesn't understand about divorced men and their feelings

02:29about their state of being divorced?

02:34There is most definitely a theme of feeling like we're ostracized, left out.

02:40A lot of our personal feelings don't really matter.

02:44I would have to say if there's a generalized theme towards, really, it falls in line with

02:49a lot of stuff that men endure along these lines, a lot of emotional trauma.

02:54The general theme from society overall is one of just kind of man up, deal with it.

02:59Bad things happen.

03:01And corollary to that is we often see with the women that we have divorced from, what

03:06we see, at least this is our perspective, is one of the messages that they receive is

03:10more of a kind of a you-go-girl.

03:12This is your chance to kind of be reborn.

03:16And you don't need that man anyway.

03:17Well, a lot of men will report when enduring something like a divorce and going through

03:22the trauma, they really don't hear much from their social circle at all.

03:26They kind of are just left alone.

03:29And that's not necessarily an anti-male thing.

03:31I think it's a lot of their social circle doesn't quite know how to approach the man.

03:36You know, they don't feel comfortable doing so.

03:37A lot of men aren't as social as women.

03:39So we don't have that much of a close social circle.

03:42So it's like this vicious circle, if you will, of kind of loneliness and we kind of

03:46feel forgotten.

03:48That loneliness really resonates right now in a post-pandemic environment.

03:52And I remember seeing reports at the height of the pandemic about how men often gather

03:57in basketball games or in group activities.

04:00And it's in the group activity that you share what's happening in your life and how you

04:04feel about it.

04:05But when we all had to separate for COVID and stay, you know, in our own bubbles, if

04:11you will, it was easier for women to stay connected than it was for men.

04:15I'm speaking very generally.

04:17How have you found sentiment within your community changing over the years?

04:22Has loneliness gotten worse?

04:24And has that feeling of maybe being ostracized gotten worse between 2019 and 2020,

04:322021, 2022 up till now?

04:35Well, from my own anecdotal experience, I would say no, simply because I've created a

04:40community solely for that purpose of keeping men together.

04:43And we communicate 99% of the time online.

04:46So during COVID time, we were very busy with Zoom meetings.

04:49We have several live Zoom meetings every single week.

04:51Our discussion groups were very lively and very active.

04:55So this was actually a good time for men to be, I guess, staying put in their home.

04:59A lot of people, you know, working from home as opposed to commuting two hours a day or

05:03whatever it is.

05:04And they had more time to sit and take in meetings and share their thoughts.

05:08So actually, we were more connected during that time.

05:11But that's our little group.

05:12I don't know if that's necessarily society as a whole.

05:15I can certainly see how men and women both felt very lonely during the pandemic times,

05:19for sure.

05:20Well, I ask because obviously there was an election during the pandemic in 2020, and

05:25we're in another election year.

05:26And I started this conversation with that fact that 56% of divorced men are supporting

05:31former President Donald Trump in this presidential election.

05:34So I want to start with a pretty basic question here.

05:36Does that fact surprise you?

05:38Does that statistic surprise you?

05:41Not at all.

05:43I consider myself a pretty centrist guy.

05:45I was raised in a very leftist family, very centrist views.

05:49I'm one of those rare people that, you know, when somebody says, what do you feel about

05:53this?

05:54It varies issue to issue.

05:55I really don't feel like, you know, I was dealt a certain hand of cards and I have to

05:58play those cards.

05:59And because I'm a Democrat, this is what I feel.

06:01I'm one of those types that takes it issue to issue.

06:04But from what I found, I'm kind of a rarity in my world.

06:08Most of my world skews definitely to the right, very conservative.

06:12And I actually asked one of our guys in a group, why do you think that is?

06:17Why do you think our group, which let's be honest, it is basically if we had to categorize

06:21our group, it is men with relationship problems.

06:24So when I see most men in our group who have relationship problems tend to skew conservative,

06:30you know, the knee jerk thought is conservative men tend to have more relationship problems.

06:34And they say, no, it's actually because we are more faithful.

06:38We take our vows very, very seriously.

06:41And we want to work for what they see is a very, very important institution of marriage.

06:45A lot of our men in our group are not divorced.

06:47They're still trying to keep their marriage together, but it's disintegrating.

06:50It's falling apart.

06:51A lot of men in sexless marriages and so forth.

06:54So their claim is that they're actually working harder than the other guys are on the relationship,

07:00whether that's true or not.

07:01And that's up for debate.

07:02But that's their thinking anyway.

07:04So, yeah, we see a lot of conservative men.

07:07So from your experience, do their conservative views have more to do with their upbringing

07:13and where they live and where they work in general economic theory?

07:16Or is there support for former President Donald Trump tied to the fact that they're having

07:21relationship problems and or are divorced?

07:25Very good question.

07:26I would say the majority, it's part of their culture already, pre-divorce.

07:32We have a lot of men from the Southeast United States, for example.

07:35So a lot of them skew conservative by virtue of their culture.

07:38But there is definitely very good point.

07:40There is a subset of the men who probably skewed very liberal, very leftist.

07:48And then the trauma of divorce, and it could be argued, you know, it's very interesting

07:53to explore why this happened, made them skew way more right as a result.

07:57So I've seen the most Bernie Sanders leftist type suddenly become very Andrew Tate ish

08:04post-divorce.

08:05It's kind of interesting watching some of these guys morph.

08:07And then eventually they come back to center.

08:09The pendulum swing definitely of the trauma and everything that they experience makes

08:13them swing all over in that direction.

08:16I was just about to ask if there was a recalibration back to the center for some of that, because

08:20I can understand how going through a traumatic event can change the way you view the world,

08:26but hopefully the trauma does not last in perpetuity.

08:29Yes, I've seen most men do come more to center and more less extreme views for sure.

08:39What else are you hearing from your community as it relates to the presidential election?

08:43Is it pretty, again, you represent a large percentage of the country, you're reaching

08:49large swaths of the country.

08:51Do you feel like it's 56 percent of your group is pro-Trump and then the other 44 percent

08:56is pro-Harris?

08:57Or what's your sense of the breakdown?

09:00I would actually think without formally polling them, I would think 56 is probably a, no pun

09:07intended, a conservative number.

09:08I would think it would be higher just based on the feedback and the chatter that I see

09:13in groups.

09:14We do make a point of keeping politics out of it, but even then you can see certain viewpoints

09:18and culture kind of seeps through the surface and it's mostly conservative in nature.

09:24So if politics are kept out of it, I understand, but policies, are you getting a sense of what

09:28they care about the most?

09:29Are they talking about alimony?

09:31Are they talking about child support?

09:32Are they talking about specific policies they want to see from either candidate?

09:38I don't think I hear it in terms of we need to change certain policies.

09:42I hear a lot of basically belly aching about what they see as some inadequacies or disparities

09:50in a lot of the systems.

09:52I don't hear much in terms of, less these days than what I used to, in terms of unfairness

09:58in like the family court system, for example.

10:01I don't hear much in terms of wives are getting more in terms of custody and all this alimony

10:05and stuff.

10:06We know a very small percentage of divorces end in alimony.

10:09I think it's less than 10% if I remember correctly.

10:12And as far as child support, we have more and more states defaulting to 50-50 unless

10:17there's some kind of accentuating circumstance.

10:20The majority of men that I talk to have 50-50 custody of their children and they see no

10:25problem with that.

10:26We do have the occasional really terrible situation of maybe the ex-wife has substance

10:31abuse problems or abandoned the family or something like that and then the men get primary

10:37or majority custody of the children.

10:39So most of the men I see, I definitely do not see the stereotype, if you will, of the

10:45dead be dead.

10:46That's just very foreign to me.

10:48I've run into a couple of men who want to escape due to the trauma and the chaos of

10:52the situation of the divorce.

10:53They just want to run away.

10:55And we talk through how that's not a good thing for the family, for the children specifically.

11:00But that's really, really rare.

11:02So when you say they're looking for some systemic change, what do you think is the

11:05biggest change that the men you talk to want to see?

11:10I would say it's more cultural.

11:13I don't think we think in terms of specific policies.

11:16That's not what I hear anyway.

11:18And I think the cultural thing lends itself very much to the Trump side of things.

11:23I think the Trump campaign in particular has done a masterful job.

11:28We could argue whether that's a good or bad thing, but still politically, they've done

11:32a masterful job of tapping into the cultural aspects of a lot of this and have really touched

11:39a nerve with a lot of men that I think they felt neglected in a lot of ways.

11:43They had felt neglected, but do you think they feel seen by Trump and his running mate?

11:49Yes, I think so.

11:51That's how I see it anyway.

11:53Earlier this summer, we also saw reports that some lawmakers in certain red states

11:58like Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, wanted to try to limit no-fault divorce, which is to

12:05say to make it harder to file for divorce based on irreconcilable differences.

12:10Has this subject come up within your community at all?

12:14Absolutely.

12:16I attract to me, based upon my material that I've put out and books I've written and so

12:19forth, a subset of men who experienced some really not so good things, such as wife committing

12:25repeat infidelities and, like I mentioned before, leaving the family, substance abuse

12:30and so forth.

12:32They will find that the courts really don't take into account any of that when looking

12:38at things such as, do the children go to mom half the time?

12:41Well, they shouldn't because mother has done these bad things.

12:45Should mother receive certain alimony and child support?

12:49In their mind, the man said, well, she shouldn't because she's done these bad things.

12:53And most of the time, the law says that really doesn't matter.

12:56She's done bad things in your mind, sir.

12:58Legally, she's entitled to certain funds and so forth.

13:01Some states, I've learned, I did an interview with an attorney from North Carolina here

13:05not too long ago who said, in her state, for example, things such as alimony do dictate

13:11whether or not they get, or excuse me, infidelity does dictate whether or not they get alimony,

13:17for example.

13:18A lot of men hear that and say, amen, we want to see more of that.

13:22So that kind of goes against the no fault thing.

13:25And I think that's what men want to see more of.

13:28Interesting.

13:29So effectively, if I'm summarizing correctly, seeing consequences for action.

13:34It's more about that than eliminating the ability to file for irreconcilable differences.

13:40Correct.

13:41Interesting, because I was going to ask if it's cutting off the nose to spite the face

13:45to campaign for a policy like that, does that create debate within your community?

13:49Are there really seeing the issues of infidelity and other issues that aren't taken seriously

13:55by the courts?

13:56Well, talking about is there debate?

13:59In my world, Internet-based discussion world, it's what I call the vocal minority is the

14:04one you hear from most.

14:06So most marriages and divorces do not end in such chaos and drama, such as, well, they're

14:12doing all the things I talked about and yada, yada, and trying to take him for all he's

14:15worth and everything.

14:16But those are the ones we hear from the most.

14:18So if you ask me, do I hear a debate, so to speak?

14:22No, it's pretty one sided.

14:23The people I hear from are those men that are really hurt from these very chaotic, troubled

14:28situations.

14:29And they're, they're lashing out, basically.

14:33I know you said you're a centrist.

14:34So I expect you'll have a down the middle answer for this.

14:37But between the two presidential candidates we have in November, who do you think is the

14:42better candidate for divorced people based on the policies you've heard, based on the

14:47discussion around both of these candidates, do you see one as being better than the other

14:51for the part of America that has gone through a divorce?

14:57When it comes specifically to policies related to divorce and what we think of as fairness

15:02and so forth, I honestly have not heard from either side a good case for, hey, divorced

15:08people, not necessarily divorced men, hey, divorced people, here are some laws specifically

15:12that we think will help you, I guess, going forward in life.

15:16I've not heard that.

15:17If that's out there, that has certainly not been promoted nearly enough.

15:21So I have to plead ignorance of saying I don't know either way and either candidate has addressed

15:26that sufficiently.

15:27Not in my mind.

15:28I mean, if I need to open my ears more, I maybe need to look at policy, but I've not

15:31seen it.

15:32And I think the majority of men would probably agree with me.

15:35I don't know where they stand, to be quite honest with you.

15:37Do you think it should be a greater part of the conversation in this presidential election

15:42cycle?

15:43Well, politics being what it is, it's not necessarily what may benefit the society as

15:49a whole, but we'll get, but we'll get more votes and more airtime.

15:53And if the left, excuse me, sees more men of a certain ilk, if you will, going towards

16:01Trump and they want to pull them back, then yes, I think it would benefit the Harris-Waltz

16:05campaign to be more aggressive and open about those sort of topics.

16:10Men, we hear you.

16:12Joe Six-Pack, we hear you.

16:14We're not ignoring you.

16:16Some of your issues, such as divorce and no fault and all those other things, we hear

16:20you and here's what we think about it.

16:22I think that will get some guys to take notice for sure.

16:26It's interesting because we have in Donald Trump a man who has been through divorce.

16:31And we also have in Doug Emhoff, our second gentleman right now, another man who's gone

16:37for divorce.

16:38And yet the issues of divorced men or divorced people are not part of the conversation.

16:45What do you make of the relative silence?

16:48Oh, it's like it's one of those verboten forbidden topics, isn't it?

16:54Divorce.

16:55I've learned over the years just talking about it just upsets a lot of people.

17:00We have men in our group, for example, that are very, very staunch proponents of marriage.

17:04They believe it as an institution.

17:05A lot of men, very religious and the mere suggestion of it's an option to leave wife

17:13is abhorrent to them.

17:14They don't want to hear it.

17:15They don't.

17:16They're just no, no, no.

17:17Even if in issues of abuse and all these infidelity, you don't think, no, no, we will work it out.

17:22So I can see politically why let's steer away from an issue that is such a huge turnoff

17:27to a big part of the of the country.

17:30I can certainly see why it's not front and center issue.

17:34Does it affect the majority of us?

17:36I don't think so.

17:38So I can see a lot of reasons why they may want to steer away from it.

17:42It makes sense.

17:43It's not a zero percent of the population and nor is it a zero percent of either party

17:48that that's running right now.

17:50But I guess to go back to something you said about you hear more of the cultural arguments

17:54versus the policy arguments within the community that you oversee.

17:59I'm wondering, is there an aspect of the conversation around masculinity, both toxic masculinity

18:04and healthy masculinity?

18:05We've heard a lot about that this election cycle.

18:09Is there an aspect of that that you would like to see talked about differently based

18:13on the conversation you're having within your community?

18:17I think that the left has really dropped the ball on masculinity and how it can be a positive

18:25thing, how it is a positive thing and how society has benefited from it.

18:29It is very simple to take what you may call as toxic masculinity, the negative aspects

18:34of something, in this particular case, masculinity, men over history, the bad things that they

18:39have done.

18:40I mean, I've been one to say, let's just put out the facts.

18:42Men commit the majority of violent crime, murder, rape, just terrible things.

18:48Follow that up with that is a very, very small percentage of men overall that commit such

18:53acts.

18:54The vast majority of men haven't even conceived of such a thing, yet many of us can attest

19:01to the fact that over the years, since being a young boy, it's been hammered into my head.

19:06You're kind of a dangerous creature.

19:07You need to kind of simmer down a little bit.

19:10You need to rein in your natural, very negative, violent impulses as a man.

19:22When you hear that campaign over and over again of toxic masculinity, you need to keep

19:25it restrained.

19:29You are potentially a harmful thing for society overall.

19:33When that message gets embedded into you after a while, you begin to feel shame, and you

19:39begin to feel all kinds of negative emotion over it, and there's going to be inevitably

19:43pushback and fight against it.

19:45I think that really opens the door to somebody who is arguably hyper-masculine to an unhealthy

19:52degree, such as a Trump type of figure and Andrew Tate type of figure, to really appeal

19:57to those men that feel ostracized and shamed and, I'm bad for just being a man.

20:02Then here comes somebody saying, not so fast.

20:05You're actually good for being a man.

20:07You're actually better for being a man.

20:10Then combine that with, who's at fault for all of your problems?

20:14It's them over there.

20:15There's always a them.

20:16In our world, the them is women, and the women are to blame for all your ... Yeah, darn right

20:21they are.

20:23Here goes the fervor, and I think, yes, those men in that world, for the online world, we

20:27talk about those men who are in the red pill space, and if you're familiar with this, yes,

20:32I'm going to guess that 99% of men in that world probably vote for Trump, simply because

20:38he's done, like I say, a masterful job of saying, hey guys, I'm one of you.

20:43I saw the other day where Trump went to a UFC event, for example, the Ultimate Fighting,

20:48and UFC audience is what, 99.9% male, and it's probably the most hyper-masculine thing

20:54there is, and there he was in the audience, in the arena, saying, here I am, I'm one of

20:58you guys, and they're like, yay, he's one of us.

21:02We've never seen that from a presidential figure before.

21:05They would steer clear of such a, quote unquote, low-class thing, hyper-masculine thing, but

21:10he's like, I'm one of you guys, to the nth degree, and that is very, very attractive

21:15to a lot of men.

21:17And then, yes, the follow-up to that is, so are the men willing to set aside certain policies

21:22and things that may benefit them, economic policies and so forth, just because somebody

21:28appeals to them culturally?

21:30Yeah, that's politics.

21:31We've seen that again and again.

21:34As you talk about the tribalistic aspect of this and the hyper-masculinity, I do understand

21:39how it can happen, but I have also heard feminist figures like Gloria Steinem talk about how

21:44abolishing gender stereotypes would help us all.

21:47We talk about how men can be as nurturing as women, and that could be an empowering

21:52message for men, especially men who have caregiving responsibilities.

21:56Some of the men in my family have been tremendous caregivers, right?

21:59So do you think emphasizing the caregiving or the nurturing side of men could reach the

22:06men that have taken the red pill?

22:10Is there a way to lower the temperature, or are we stuck in us versus them?

22:16Is there a way to lower the temperature is a perfect way to put it?

22:19I don't know.

22:20It's one of those, is the cat already out of the bag type of thing, and it's too late

22:22to put it back in.

22:23Is it to say, to emphasize certain nurturing aspects, maybe look at it from the other way,

22:29which is don't demonize such aspects.

22:32And yes, some men feel flat out emasculated and put down by their social circle for being,

22:38for example, a stay-at-home father.

22:40That's a growing population of stay-at-home fathers.

22:43And we know, for example, I posted this the other day, got a lot of feedback.

22:48Stay-at-home fathers are far more likely, for example, to commit infidelity than men

22:52that have a regular career.

22:54What the heck is going on there?

22:55Well, they have more time potentially and so forth.

22:57But when you talk to these men, a lot of these men say, I felt emasculated.

23:01I felt less than, and this is kind of a toxic way, if you will, of reclaiming my masculinity.

23:07I'm worth something.

23:09I'm an independent creature.

23:10I'm a man, darn it.

23:11And goes out and has affairs.

23:12Now, the thought may be that, well, some feminist types may come back and say, well, that's

23:17an artifact of a patriarchal system, of a misogynistic system at baseline that we punish

23:22men for being more soft and feminine, for lack of a better term.

23:28But what a lot of those men will say is, if that's the case, then why am I getting more

23:31negative feedback from the women in my lives than I am from the men?

23:35It seems like I'm kind of punished in a way by a lot of the women in my circles who look

23:38down upon me for being more nurturing, more caring, more feminine, if you will.

23:46And so it's a very mixed message.

23:49And it could be also argued that those women that are demonizing him for that, or treating

23:57him poorly for that, or what, internalizing like a patriarchal system, if you will.

24:00So it's a very interesting subject, for sure.

24:05Feminist misogyny is incredibly difficult to unpack.

24:09And as you were talking, I was also thinking about paternity leave.

24:12We've covered here at Forbes how more companies are offering paternity leave, but men aren't

24:16necessarily taking that leave.

24:18And again, that is in part because of culture and society and feeling like, OK, I have this

24:24opportunity to take leave, but I will be judged if I take it.

24:28And I think a lot of us can say that's problematic, because I think men want to bond with their

24:33children as much as women do, at least the sources I've interviewed.

24:38Yes.

24:39And my family is from Europe, from Spain.

24:42My mother's from Spain.

24:43And so I know the European way of life.

24:45And something like paternity leave over there in many parts of Europe is just a given.

24:49And they give you a pretty good amount of time as well.

24:52And it's not looked down upon.

24:54Men don't necessarily feel it's just part ingrained and part of their culture.

24:58And America, not so much, as we've seen.

25:01And the question is, why?

25:02Is it cultural?

25:03Is it something just inborn in us as men that we want to go out and do things and create

25:07and build?

25:08And staying home with a little rug rat is taken away from that, I think, is a combination

25:12of all those things.

25:14It's very complicated.

25:15But thank you so much for coming on to break down what you're seeing from your community.

25:19And just before I let you go, any final words?

25:21Is there anything else the Forbes audience or the public at large should understand about

25:26divorced men and what they feel as we enter the last month of this presidential election

25:31cycle?

25:33I would say one very simple piece of advice for everyone.

25:37Everyone seems to know somebody, some guy who's going through a divorce.

25:40Do not automatically assume that he's Mr. Bad Guy.

25:44Don't assume that he's some negative, patriarchal, misogynistic monster that caused all of this.

25:50Here is one little note that I will leave you with.

25:53Pick up the phone, text or call the guy and just say, how are you doing?

25:57I've been thinking about you.

25:58You doing okay?

25:59Do you need anything?

26:00Anything I can help you with?

26:02Nobody hears that.

26:03No man hears that at all.

26:04And I'm not saying that's an anti-man thing.

26:06It's more of a cultural thing.

26:07Like you say, it's a very complicated thing.

26:09But regardless, take the step of just saying, how are you doing, buddy?

26:12You doing all right?

26:13Anything I can do for you?

26:14Want to hang out?

26:15That's huge.

26:16And no man hears that.

26:17It's beneficial for their mental health big time.

26:21Indeed, it is.

26:22Ralph Brewer, founder of Help for Men.

26:24Thank you so much for joining us.

26:25We so appreciate your time.

26:27Thank you so much.

26:28I appreciate it.

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